pishifat wrote:

being able to solo push maps through this doesn't seem like a great idea either, since that could easily mean promotion of maps 1 person likes and 9999 people don't. even if the person promoting a map alone contributes a lot to mapping/modding stuff, it would be better to promote maps that a bunch of mappers support

There needs to be some sort of cap to how much Kudosu you can give to the map if this is implemented. 1 seems like a good cap, but you could argue it's too low. If there was a mapper's choice section, it would have to function like the Loved section in a way.

pishifat wrote:

even if loved maps arent always well-mapped, there's at least people who screen each map before it goes through. if me and my modding friends decide to spam kudosu on centipede, im not seeing what in the proposal would stop the map from getting a leaderboard that it has no reason to have

Have some sort of screening process, similar to Loved. It stops shitmaps from getting through, and if the map is too low quality (doesn't need to be Ranked standard), then it can be added to Mapper's Choice.

pishifat wrote:

i'm not sure what official plans are for kudosu exactly, so i can't comment on how practical this is to implement

This is the one thing I'm skeptical about, because we don't know future plans for Kudosu. If there is none, this seems like a good idea, and I agree that this is beneficial to the mapping community.

I support the idea of giving kudosu a value/purpose but I think that if star priority is being implemented again, it should also apply to maps that are going for ranked (basically replacing hype). The hype system is not very effective since most of the time, you end up asking friends to hype your map instead of getting it from people who genuinely like the map. I think going back to 12 star priority as a threshold for a map to get ranked would be better so kudosu has an actual use.
And about the mapper's choice category, I also like this idea but it should not only be based on the amount of kudosu you give to a map. Since it's called "mapper's choice" it would make sense to let mappers choose which maps fit into this category, maybe with a poll (similar to the loved voting). The problem about this is how to determine whether someone is a mapper or not. It could be solved by establishing that only users who have a ranked map/gd can vote, but on the other hand, that would be really unfair towards people who don't map for ranked or people who are capable of mapping but struggle with the ranking process. Maybe someone can come up with a better way of deciding which maps fit, not every map should get a leaderboard just because. I also agree with what some people already mentioned: not letting the mapper himself push his map into this category because the map should be appreciated by several mappers and not only the creator.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

I support the idea of giving kudosu a value/purpose but I think that if star priority is being implemented again, it should also apply to maps that are going for ranked (basically replacing hype). The hype system is not very effective since most of the time, you end up asking friends to hype your map instead of getting it from people who genuinely like the map. I think going back to 12 star priority as a threshold for a map to get ranked would be better so kudosu has an actual use.

This goes against the reason that hype was implemented. The reason that hype was implemented is so normal players can have input into what maps get ranked.

Hype is useless lets be real. As it is only positive it just creates an extra barrier to hop over for no reason. SP was also useless. the only thing that should matter for ranked status is quality, not how many people burned 1 of their 3 weekly hypes on it.

@OP - I agree that the idea is good but the numbers are too low. This is an extreme example but I could find 40 maps and give them all leaderboards like this. Even complete randoms can farm ridiculous amounts of kds nowadays through spamming useless "mods" on noob maps. In that regard the numbers should be higher, like 100 or 200 maybe. I also don't see the purpose of two separate levels for this tbh; you can have the top SP maps anyway without having 250 and popular maps would get well over that naturally anyway.

@pishi - you could just have the exact same thing that loved does except for this category lol. The barrier to entry for loved is comically low, so even for this the baseline would just have to be "not completely retarded to play" and it would work pretty easily.

@jack having a mapper only poll with eligibility tied to ranked maps when the express purpose of the section is to promote maps that aren't ranked that are still good seems a bit counterintuitive.

Nao Tomori wrote:

Hype is useless lets be real. As it is only positive it just creates an extra barrier to hop over for no reason. SP was also useless. the only thing that should matter for ranked status is quality, not how many people burned 1 of their 3 weekly hypes on it.

@OP - I agree that the idea is good but the numbers are too low. This is an extreme example but I could find 40 maps and give them all leaderboards like this. Even complete randoms can farm ridiculous amounts of kds nowadays through spamming useless "mods" on noob maps. In that regard the numbers should be higher, like 100 or 200 maybe. I also don't see the purpose of two separate levels for this tbh; you can have the top SP maps anyway without having 250 and popular maps would get well over that naturally anyway.

@pishi - you could just have the exact same thing that loved does except for this category lol. The barrier to entry for loved is comically low, so even for this the baseline would just have to be "not completely retarded to play" and it would work pretty easily.

@jack having a mapper only poll with eligibility tied to ranked maps when the express purpose of the section is to promote maps that aren't ranked that are still good seems a bit counterintuitive.

Yeah I know, that's why I said it's unfair and most likely not a good solution. If a poll is not a possible option, then I suggest having some people who check these maps before they enter this category. But unlike loved maps, these maps should have some kind of minimum quality standards. Not the same as for ranked maps of course, but if this category is meant to be for maps that are good in the eyes of other mappers, the maps should have some quality at least, since mappers are usually more capable of judging a map compared to a player who started playing recently, which is the majority of people who vote on loved maps. As you said, loved maps don't need to be good, but that should not apply to mapper's choice maps as well imo.
I agree with you about removing hype completely and that it's really easy to obtain a huge amount of kudosu without much effort tho

the OP outlines project loved's first iteration before the current team took it over.

it didn't work.

people lost their minds when the sliderspam ikenai map hit the roster even though it legitimately encompassed precisely what the category was supposed to encompass and provide literally the only meaningful expenditure of kudosu in the entire decade osu! has been running.

people called it "kudosu abuse" and pretty much tried to shame mappers who used the system to promote their work for daring to spend the sole crystallization of their contribution to the game.

i don't know what future kudosu has in osu!, i've long since given up on trying to wedge it into something. between the fact that previous contribution *still* hasn't been migrated forward to account for moddingv1, any other system i can think of that might possibly reward mappers also comes with the stark inevitability of people who don't bother modding lumping it as "abuse" similar to how the early loved iteration stuff worked. it's not a great look

Alright, this round of community feedback has convinced me of a multitude of problems. Let's beging by identifying them:

1. Kudosu are too easy to come by for those numbers
2. Loved has a (very minimal) quality screening, so should this.
3. Gold doesn't make much sense in its current form at all.

Enough about problems. Let's talk Solutions.

First Solution: Nixing Gold. Gold was a half-baked idea, that didn't really make much sense. The winning strategy for a spotlight is to just do a algorithm similar to Reddit upvotes but have the average decay per day on Reddit be about one week. Given the contribution cap per mapper per week, this will ensure that the maps with the most mapper support get the most Community spotlight.

Second Solution: Number Readjustment. This one, surprisingly, is the more complicated of the two. the easy part is raising the barrier of Entry to 125 star priority. Furthermore, you may only shoot 5 kudosu at a time. Because kudosu are worth so much less, and 1 out of 125 is virtually nothing, this is a necessary quality of life fix. This automatically fixes the quality screening issue, I believe that to reach that, there is a minimum quality standard inherently. The hard part is how many is the individual cap, and that's hard for me to say. Beginning to dive into ephemeral's point, when someone asked me last night for a summary, I described it as old loved with a lot of changes to make it better, and not pretending to be something that it isn't. To address ephemeral's point,

Ephemeral wrote:

the OP outlines project loved's first iteration before the current team took it over.

it didn't work.

people lost their minds when the sliderspam ikenai map hit the roster even though it legitimately encompassed precisely what the category was supposed to encompass and provide literally the only meaningful expenditure of kudosu in the entire decade osu! has been running.

people called it "kudosu abuse" and pretty much tried to shame mappers who used the system to promote their work for daring to spend the sole crystallization of their contribution to the game.

This is perhaps going to be the most important discussion we have. I've talked to numerous people who are upset about ikenai borderline, from the players perspective, and talked to people who supported it. The conclusion I've come to is this: the outcry was not that ikenai borderline didn't deserve a leaderboard or that mapper shouldn't be allowed to have a place to highlight their Creations in exchange for all that they've volunteered to do for the community. The outcry was that loved is supposed to be a section for maps that are popular with the player base, which is exactly what the current loved section does. The argument was not that it shouldn't exist, the argument was that it needed it's own category.

Which is exactly what this does.

This is the perfect place for ikenai borderline- a place where blissfulyoshi could be rewarded with a leaderboard for all of his contributions to the community, by highlighting something he made that was special to him in a place where it wouldn't offend people that he was making a claim that his map should be beloved by the wider player base- who it was never meant for; and allow him to see scores from the players who did like the map and spent lots of time to set cool scores on it.

I think the failure of the old loved section actually demonstrates the need for a mapper's choice section and the need for a distinction between the two categories.

I also believe that mappers should be rewarded for the contributions they make voluntarily to the Osu community - that's why I'm suggesting a per person per map cap off 125 kudosu, enough to get your creation a leaderboard, but needing support from other mappers to make it into the highlights of the section.

Ephemeral wrote:

i've long since given up on trying to wedge it into something. between the fact that previous contribution *still* hasn't been migrated forward to account for moddingv1, any other system i can think of that might possibly reward mappers also comes with the stark inevitability of people who don't bother modding lumping it as "abuse" similar to how the early loved iteration stuff worked. it's not a great look

Right now I kind of think of kudosu as the osu version reddit karma. There's no exact purpose behind it, it's literally a stupid useless internet point that measures your activity in reddit posting (mod posting in our case) and somewhat a measure of user experience (even karma whoring and kudosu whoring both exist). I wouldn't even be opposed to making kudosu some kind of karma equivalent, although it doesn't even act as that right now because of the v1 / v2 skew. In another post of mine here I suggested measuring the total amount of threads / maps kd have been earned on to rebalance it, alongside the value of kudosu we earn as usual atm. but thinking back on this it's totally reverting back to v1; it's the only way i can think of a rebalance so far though

It just kind of makes me sad that kudosu seems to be a lost cause now I guess

downpour wrote:

The winning strategy for a spotlight mappers choice showcase? is to just do a algorithm similar to Reddit upvotes but have the average decay per day on Reddit be about one week. Given the contribution cap per mapper per week, this will ensure that the maps with the most mapper support get the most Community spotlight.

Staying on the topic of Reddit (i love reddit) something along these lines sounds pretty interesting. I actually thought of a system that goes in a similar direction and incorporates your ideas

The way I can see this playing out, a mapper could spend 1 kudosu for one upvote, 5 kudosu for a second, 10 for a third, 20 for a fourth, and 50 for a fifth and final upvote on the map. At the end of every week (on Saturday at a certain time? or something) the top 5 maps that are most upvoted get a chart on the front page of the website, and leaderboards for that week until next Saturday or whatever. By the end of that week, all the maps with a higher user rating than 9.00 get to keep their leaderboards (without giving pp of course), and you get a fresh batch of 5 new maps. All the upvotes spent they last week are reset on every map, making it so you have to more wisely use your kd. You would probably want to give mappers the chance to opt out of this upon uploading their maps though, in case they want to focus on ranking or whatever.

Not sure if this is exactly along the lines of what you were thinking, but I somewhat agree that there's a potential audience for a "mappers choice" sort of category. I'd totally draft a more full version of this lol.

squirrelpascals wrote:

The way I can see this playing out, a mapper could spend 1 kudosu for one upvote, 5 kudosu for a second, 10 for a third, 20 for a fourth, and 50 for a fifth and final upvote on the map. At the end of every week (on Saturday at a certain time? or something) the top 5 maps that are most upvoted get a chart on the front page of the website, and leaderboards for that week until next Saturday or whatever. By the end of that week, all the maps with a higher user rating than 9.00 get to keep their leaderboards (without giving pp of course), and you get a fresh batch of 5 new maps. You would probably want to give mappers the chance to opt out of this upon uploading their maps though, in case they want to focus on ranking or whatever.

Now this is something I can get behind. The only problem I can see with user rating is that if a mapper is hated among the community, the map would never get a leaderboard, regardless of quality, because players seem to neglect the map and just give a low rating because of the mapper. A perfect example of this is Sotarks' FREEDOM DiVE. Although the map has been criticised, it's a blatant pp map and normally this would award a high rating, but since it's by a certain mapper they'll go by the mapper instead of the map's quality.

squirrelpascals wrote:

Not sure if this is exactly along the lines of what you were thinking, but I somewhat agree that there's a potential audience for a "mappers choice" sort of category. I'd totally draft a more full version of this lol.

I like squirrel's concept more than OP's. I'd draft it if a) I could be bothered, b) I was actually useful or c) I had more than one braincell.

squirrelpascals wrote:

Staying on the topic of Reddit (i love reddit)

bro same

[ - Jax - ] wrote:

The only problem I can see with user rating is that if a mapper is hated among the community, the map would never get a leaderboard, regardless of quality, because players seem to neglect the map and just give a low rating because of the mapper. A perfect example of this is Sotarks' FREEDOM DiVE. Although the map has been criticised, it's a blatant pp map and normally this would award a high rating, but since it's by a certain mapper they'll go by the mapper instead of the map's quality.

context

This is another thing i actually totally forgot to mention lol, since user rating was originally an example. user ratings aren't always an accurate representation of the quality of a map, and i agree with everything you said in that paragraph except for freedom dive being a pp map. the question then would be what to use to measure which map gets leaderboards.

Maybe if the map gains x amount of kd in the leaderboard? That feels like a lazy solution tho. We can also i guess just copy what loved is doing with polls. I'd be against something like a poll to decide one map between the five that gets leaderboards, because there can always be 2 or 3 exceptionally good maps in the batch.

Edit- this kind of branches off from downpour's idea, so I'm going to drop it in this thread and try to whip up another proposal soon

This new system addresses none of the main concerns of the system, namely, the need for a third category of beatmaps for maps like CANDYYYLAND, Xinobikill, Ehgze, and yes, even Ikenai Borderline. Your proposal is a mapper community vote on which maps they like best and want to highlight- which is what project spotlight is designed to do. This proposal has nothing to do with project spotlight.

It also goes against my and ephemeral's main wishes. Namely,

Ephemeral wrote:

people called it "kudosu abuse" and pretty much tried to shame mappers who used the system to promote their work for daring to spend the sole crystallization of their contribution to the game.

downpour wrote:

I also believe that mappers should be rewarded for the contributions they make voluntarily to the Osu community - that's why I'm suggesting a per person per map cap off 125 kudosu, enough to get your creation a leaderboard, but needing support from other mappers to make it into the highlights of the section.

I believe in rewarding mappers with leaderboards for their community contributions because they're just not that hard on the servers anymore and the work/reward ratio to get a leaderboard has already been lowered on the playing community side by low quality maps of popular songs.

This also falls into some of ranked's pitfalls I raised, such as social status determining more than it should. This system is extremely flawed in my eyes and it's a separate proposal entirely. I'll write up a draft of the system with the current version of the changes to the system and edit it into the original post tonight.

given how kudosu is set to adapt into an activity metric of moddingv2, I don't think it's a good idea to treat it as a currency anymore. "spending" kudosu won't really make sense

Uhh, well, it's actually not supposed to be anything. It can adapt to whatever purpose we give it, that's just the only use for it right now, and staff has indicated they would be ok with it becoming a currency again. An activity metric means that active mappers have currency, which is what we're looking for. To me, it's a great solution.

this is honestly a pretty neat idea, I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented. maybe we'll see more cute maps getting leaderboards

kudosu-->supporter thx

Lmao but seriously. Anyone have problems/suggestions/feedback on the new revised proposal?

idk random Idea
be able to extend the number of uploaded beatmap by 1(like osu! supporter) and is worth 250 kudos per slot ?

bn priority queue with kds ?

downpour wrote:

Uhh, well, it's actually not supposed to be anything. It can adapt to whatever purpose we give it, that's just the only use for it right now

kudosu doesn't mean a lot (anything, really) at the moment, but there are plans to incorporate it into the modding system in the future. should read up in the #modding (and previously, #osu-web-modding) channels of the osu!dev server because there have been some very in-depth talks about how it could/will be used and for what purpose

the giga tl;dr that probably misses too many details is that it will be worked into the metric that determines which permissions modders have access to in the ranking process

downpour wrote:

and staff has indicated they would be ok with it becoming a currency again.

did you just make this up? literally the exact opposite of peppy's word, at least

peppy wrote:

kudosu will stop being a currency and be more of a reputation system

I only had contact with eph, but I can see if maybe I can ask peppy.

https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/3978

maybe i will try posting this to reddit or something. i wish it wasn't dead.