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Catch the Beat Rules/Guidelines Discussion Thread

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bwross
265 posts
Joined December 2009
bwross
I'm not overly happy with the mixing of themes in the level names. I think that they should have a consistent theme so that it's more clear that they are a group, as well as the order (really, a "rain" of fruit would probably contain several orders of magnitude over the LD50 (aka a potentially fatal "overdose")... or apparently, you could go the other way (like in the poll)... it's not that clear).

Examples:
Fruits: Apple, Banana, Cherry, Durian, Eggplant.
The fruit container/amount theme (fits with achievements): Cup, Salad, Platter, Overdose, Mountain.
Or to go with the falling/rain/water theme: Drip, Drizzle, Rain, Deluge, Flood.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
salad: normal
platter: hard
overdose: insane/extra diffs

enough.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

eldnl wrote:

salad: normal
platter: hard
overdose: insane/extra diffs

enough.
yup
ZHSteven
osu! Alumni
665 posts
Joined July 2009
ZHSteven
About the stacked two slider, That is all I want to say:

It is a technical way and the only way to change the direction or velocity of a single slider in a ctb map.
And it does not affect anything except the hitsound, which can be manually controlled.

If you guys think sliders in CTB map is the same as notes, I have nothing to say.
But in my opinion, They are NOT.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

ZHSteven wrote:

It is a technical way and the only way to change the direction or velocity of a single slider in a ctb map.
You can change the slope of the slider to make it faster or slower.

ZHSteven wrote:

And it does not affect anything except the hitsound, which can be manually controlled.
It looks bad. Grape on top of pear? How horrid!

ZHSteven wrote:

If you guys think sliders in CTB map is the same as notes, I have nothing to say.
But in my opinion, They are NOT.
I can't see this ever happening. Please make maps with it, but don't expect them to get ranked. Ranking is for maps that meet certain quality standards. Maps that aren't "fun" to play can easily be ranked, mostly due to what people consider to be fun. Maps that have errors in them shouldn't be ranked. Two notes on the same beat are errors and there is no way to fix this.

The CTB slider thing is a workaround for something that you want. A similar workaround was using red timing sections to create hold notes. I don't expect to convince you that you're wrong, because in reality you're not. It's simple to play and serves a good purpose. It's just not rankable, and I think it's important to get that point across.
CLSW
osu! Alumni
2,182 posts
Joined October 2010
CLSW
Aw...

Originally EZ2CATCH has 4 mapsets : Easy, Normal, Hard, and Another.

I want this. Fruit names looks like too messy for me.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
So the poll ended.
Seems like most people want "at least" special fruit(?) based names.
Most of them even want the ENHIX system. (Or in this case C/S/P/R/O/D system ^^)
Does this mean that we use them now?
I would be very happy with that ^^ sry to all those who dislike it
Last edited by bomber34 , edited 1 time in total.
Mercurial
Mercurial
DELUGE! ♥
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
Updated OP. I think there's no need to keep that poll anymore =)
animez15
122 posts
Joined April 2012
animez15
thats sounds great,,,but it may be confusing to others,,,just be specific on it,,
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
Ok I wondered what OD affects and because most people said it does affect spinner i did two screenshot of the same spinner (tried to get the same time)

OD 0

OD 10

You can see the spinners are the same. I also tested other things like normal control, dashing, Hyperfruits and sliders but I am sure nothing changed (I said I am sure because it was just my feeling when testing it. So I may need some other people to test this so i did no mistake)

The only thing that is affected is the maximum score.

So I would say we need a rule about the OD. I say OD must be set to 5 because it is the middle and because it affects nothing there is no need to change that.
Last edited by bomber34 , edited 1 time in total.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
Okok! After messing a bit with ODs in popular songs, these are the results:

Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (Blue Dragon) - OD 0 vs 8


IOSYS - Tyoujin Hijiri no Air Muscle (Verdisphena) - OD 0 vs 7



My opinion... OD does affect Max Score, but dunno if it affects to ryuuta stability, Hdash control, Hdash creation, etc

Gotta do more test-play and ask another players to do so.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
If a fixed OD have to be choose take attention to adjust the max score for a ranked diff (we calculated ~30M based on actual longest ranked standard diffs wich more frequently use OD7-8)
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Max Score is no matter anymore. The max. score rule on standard diffs has been nuked, because they are about to merge ranked and approved maps and only let gimmick/marathon maps get approved.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
I tried t+pazolite - Against Gilgamesh with OD0 and OD10. When I played with OD0 I wasn't able to control the ryuuta, my max combo is below 100. With OD10 max combo is 400 which is the normal. So maybe it affects the ryuuta's stability or something like that. It has a chance that I just suck with my first run tho. ._.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Kurokami wrote:

I tried t+pazolite - Against Gilgamesh with OD0 and OD10. When I played with OD0 I wasn't able to control the ryuuta, my max combo is below 100. With OD10 max combo is 400 which is the normal. So maybe it affects the ryuuta's stability or something like that. It has a chance that I just suck with my first run tho. ._.
/offtopic i'm going to think about training with OD0 maps....

/ontopic I'll prefer to have a dev side opinion about that :s Are we going to get all maps OD10 in order to get a better playability ? OD5 is the mid but it not fits with what we are used to play if there's really a difference... Or maybe something like AR=OD ?
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
lol the only one who you could ask is peppy.

mm201 already said that it probaly affects nothing ~
Also Loctav said that points won't play a role in the future so i think the whole OD stuff is ... unnecessary?
I mean I tried it a long long time with OD0 and 10 and after idk 20 plays with both it was 50-50. So i doubt that anything changes with it
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
As there's not a real evidence of the difference of playstyle between different ODs in the same diff, we can set what Drafura said about putting the same OD than AR.

Ranked/bubbled diffs will be out of this decision, of course. If everybody's ok with it, I can include it as a new rule soon:

"Difficulty settings will have to adapt to the requirements of the map/melody, according to its BPM, difficulty, etc. As Overall Difficulty doesn't affect at all the playability of a map, it'll take the same value as the Approach Rate".
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
Overall difficulty can work when the map doesn't have the difficulty or the score that you want, if it doesn't change anything, I can't understand why we need a rule for the OD.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
It not makes sense, if it not change anything. I mean, even in taiko, changing the accuracy. (high OD, harder to get 300) So it must change something in ctb too.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Kurokami wrote:

It not makes sense, if it not change anything. I mean, even in taiko, changing the accuracy. (high OD, harder to get 300) So it must change something in ctb too.
best option is OD=AR since they were originally identical. CTB was made a long time ago, so it's likely that before the OD/AR split, the only thing OD changed was AR. Now it's likely useless.

One thing to note is that if OD has no effect, then there is no reason to dictate it either. In terms of fairness, everyone will be playing the same map with the same OD. Everyone will be getting the same scores.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Why don't you just ask the guy who made it to see if OD actually has an effect?
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
OD=AR is a good option, but better if we just ask ppy instead of trying to figure out something what is almost impossible.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Pm sent to peppy.

Edit : I think he's ignoring me -_-
emergist
106 posts
Joined April 2011
emergist
I think if the initial letter of the difficulties are [E] [N] [H] [I] [X](but not the same as osu! mode), it is better.
ZHSteven
osu! Alumni
665 posts
Joined July 2009
ZHSteven
Ok since bomber34 talk about the factors affect the fruit in spinner, I will give my results on it.

The only thing affect the spinner is the slider.
I mean, the total number of slider you put in the map.(but placement, direction, tick rate, speed, or other small little thing doesn't affect it.)
I don't know why but, it is truth...
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Okay I don't have any news from peppy about the OD things... I still think it isn't modifying anything else than the total score. I'll suggest to make it equal to AR since in the old map version the AR was the OD.

From my modding experience I've to report 2 things wich could make 2 guidelines (I'm bad at redacting those things so i'll explain them) :
- New combos : In standard mapping new combos usually are on white tick, but in CtB I think we could place them in the next tick (So the " fruit jumping off the plate" effect due to new combo would fit with the song).
- Timing Sections (Mainly for audio changes) : Since we can't hit an object before the object have to be hitted in CtB, we may put our sections on the exact offset (not a bit before, like in standard mapping).

Discuss.
bwross
265 posts
Joined December 2009
bwross

ZHSteven wrote:

Ok since bomber34 talk about the factors affect the fruit in spinner, I will give my results on it.

The only thing affect the spinner is the slider.
I mean, the total number of slider you put in the map.(but placement, direction, tick rate, speed, or other small little thing doesn't affect it.)
I don't know why but, it is truth...
Random numbers on computers are typically generated by pseudo random number generators (PRNG)... especially when you want them to be deterministic and produce the same sequence each time. What will change the behaviour you see is if a different number of calls to the PRNG are made... meaning, that if the number of sliders are changing the way spinners look, then sliders are probably calling the PRNG for some reason. This also means that adding another spinner (or altering the length of one so it drops a different number of fruits) should definitely change any spinners that occur after it.

When you were testing speed, did you make changes that would change the number of drops? I'm thinking that maybe the drops (large and small, since tick rate doesn't change things) might be slightly randomized in their position. If that's the case, then changing a slider's duration so it has more or less drops would alter any spinners from that point on in the map.

Another option: PRNGs need a seed value to get them started. In order to make sure that the map plays the same every time, the same seed would be set at the start of each play. That could be a fixed number used for all maps, or it could be calculated from details of the map being played... including things like the total number of sliders. If this is the case, then adding a slider at the very end of the map would change spinners before it. Did you check this way, or did you only play with sliders at the start of the map?
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif

Drafura wrote:

- New combos : In standard mapping new combos usually are on white tick, but in CtB I think we could place them in the next tick (So the " fruit jumping off the plate" effect due to new combo would fit with the song).
The new combo position depends on the mapper mostly. As long as it makes sense, there's no need to make a guideline for this.

Drafura wrote:

- Timing Sections (Mainly for audio changes) : Since we can't hit an object before the object have to be hitted in CtB, we may put our sections on the exact offset (not a bit before, like in standard mapping).
It is true there is an offset difference between osu!Standard and CTB maps, which is around 15 ms (based on my experience in modding Standard diffs, and using the same General Offset that leads me to a ~0 ms offset difference while testing them).

On the other hand, there's a general rule which says that every difficulty of the mapset must have the same timing settings (uninherited sections)... so fixing this difference will depend on the player (who has to put a General Offset of -15 ms from what he has of Standard playing), and not the mapper.

About the OD settings, we can include it just as a guideline in order to set a proper standards regarding Difficulty Settings.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Deif wrote:

The new combo position depends on the mapper mostly. As long as it makes sense, there's no need to make a guideline for this.
Okay, I was just pointing out the fact that a new combo wich make sense in standard could not make sense in CtB.

For me this make sense in standard :


But this is visually much better in CtB :


Cause the "explosion" effect of the new combo will fit with the song.

Deif wrote:

It is true there is an offset difference between osu!Standard and CTB maps, which is around 15 ms (based on my experience in modding Standard diffs, and using the same General Offset that leads me to a ~0 ms offset difference while testing them).

On the other hand, there's a general rule which says that every difficulty of the mapset must have the same timing settings (uninherited sections)... so fixing this difference will depend on the player (who has to put a General Offset of -15 ms from what he has of Standard playing), and not the mapper.
I think you missunderstood what I said. I'm not talking about an offset difference between modes. I'm talking about the possibility (in standard) to hit a circle before the offset of this same circle wich isn't present in CtB mode. For example :


This is a standard beatmap with an audio change timing section. You can see the timing section is added on the 1/4 tick before the (2), this is used in standard mapping cause if you put it in the same offset of the note the player could be able to click before the timing section and the audio change will not take effect for this object. But in CtB we can't catch an object before its offset so I think we could be able to set our audio changes on the object offet and not 1/8 or 1/4 tick before.

I'm surprised that there's no guideline or rule about this in standard. It's something used in all standard beatmaps for audio changes...

For uninherited timing section the standard rule is applied of course :
Uninherited timing sections must be the same in every difficulty of the mapset. That is, each section must have the same BPM and offset in each difficulty. Furthermore, there must not be extra or missing uninherited sections in any difficulty. A song's timing doesn't change between difficulties, so there's no sense in having different uninherited sections per difficulty.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
it all depends on your perspective drafura. Why can't explosions occur on 4?
bwross
265 posts
Joined December 2009
bwross
Personally, I think it typically makes more sense to have the last beat of a phrase clear the plate so the plate is clear for the next bar... the emphasis of the splash added before the incoming downbeat, rather than caused by it. But that could partially be because I've gotten used to playing maps that way.

Almost certainly there are songs for which moving the splash to the lead beat would make sense... for example, songs using back beat rhythms.

I don't think there really needs to be more than to note that combo starts are more flexible in CtB... if a mapper wants to use the splash like a mini-fountain effect to emphasize something, then they're free to do so. The only real concern for grouping in CtB is when the combos are so long that too much fruit builds up on the plate.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

ziin wrote:

it all depends on your perspective drafura. Why can't explosions occur on 4?
In my point of view if the explosion occurs on 4 the combo remains okay but the visual effect is not so good. I didn't say it can't occur on 4 that's why I'm talking about guideline not rule, this is not following standard mapping so I think it's worth to mention it (Some of my new combos has been mentionned in a mod so I want to see with the community if this could be allowed or not in CtB mapping).

bwross wrote:

if a mapper wants to use the splash like a mini-fountain effect to emphasize something, then they're free to do so.
Yup something like this. But I still disagree with the "new combo each note" wich is much more annoying than a 12+ combo, so mini foutain is maybe not the good word wich reminds me a kiai abuse ^^"
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
fwiw, Guidelines are like rules except they can only be broken on special cases.

Also your idea of the plate being cleared on 1, is like asking on Standard for a geki/katu to appear on 1... it just doesnt look good (Except on some songs)
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

Sakura wrote:

Also your idea of the plate being cleared on 1, is like asking on Standard for a geki/katu to appear on 1... it just doesnt look good (Except on some songs)
So it's something we should ban in CtB mapping (Except on some songs) ? Or we can use it since it makes a pretty good visual effect ? (I have to know if I have to modify my map now :s)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Pretty simple, leave it to mapper's discression, if it doesnt look good modders will point it out.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Suggestions.Are.The.Way.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav


Since Spinners are CLEARLY distinguishable from normal hitnotes now, the spinner rule needs an overhaul.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
I tested it on Ronald McDonalds insanity and at this point



The combo color of the Hit Fruit is not that noticable different from the rest



On the Picture it may seem easy to spot but it isn't really


Have to say that that won't happen that often though but I still think that the fruit should stay at least 1/2 Beat apart from the spinner
Maybe set it as guideline instead of a rule ._.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
You placed them wrong, bomber. lol
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