Set Contribution

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pishifat wrote:

tehre
ok



pishifat wrote:

so unless someone's been hiding a groundbreaking option, i think we can go forward with the wording proposed near the beginning:
A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creators. This is to provide credit where credit is due. Collab difficulties are only considered partial difficulties, and drain time will be used if necessary to determine the amount of contribution.
The problem I find with this is that mappers who are trying to push their first map to rank is that they might want a GD for a certain diff (say Hard, if they're bad at mapping Hard difficulties) and put a request in the Mapping Projects subforum, and end up getting a full mania spread by accident (unlikely, but can happen) and has to map more difficulties otherwise it's unrankable.
The rule is a bit unfair, but I think it would be better to have the RC be a bit more lenient, something like: The mapset host's difficulties must have around 80% drain time compared to the biggest contributor. While still giving "credit where credit is due", it provides more leniency for aspiring mappers who can't map low difficulties.
Serizawa Haruki

[ - Jax - ] wrote:

pishifat wrote:

so unless someone's been hiding a groundbreaking option, i think we can go forward with the wording proposed near the beginning:
A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creators. This is to provide credit where credit is due. Collab difficulties are only considered partial difficulties, and drain time will be used if necessary to determine the amount of contribution.
The problem I find with this is that mappers who are trying to push their first map to rank is that they might want a GD for a certain diff (say Hard, if they're bad at mapping Hard difficulties) and put a request in the Mapping Projects subforum, and end up getting a full mania spread by accident (unlikely, but can happen) and has to map more difficulties otherwise it's unrankable.
The rule is a bit unfair, but I think it would be better to have the RC be a bit more lenient, something like: The mapset host's difficulties must have around 80% drain time compared to the biggest contributor. While still giving "credit where credit is due", it provides more leniency for aspiring mappers who can't map low difficulties.
Getting a full mania spread "by accident" is not really possible, it's the mapset host's choice to add difficulties to the map, if he doesn't want certain diffs he can simply decide not to add them. Also, usually people ask for permission before they map a gd. If new mappers are unable to map low difficulties, they can either learn how to map them (since it's probably even easier to map them compared to insane/extra) or they can get a normal and hard gd and map insane and extra and it would be a rankable spread.

I agree with what pishi said about the amount of diffs being the only possible measurement as of right now. The "if necessary" thing could be explained by determining that drain time is only taken into account in collab diffs when the spread is arranged in a way that would make someone else other than the mapset host the biggest contributor, for example: The mapset host mapped Insane, while mapper x made a normal gd. The hard diff is a collab between both of them. In that case, the respective drain time each mapper mapped is considered. If the gd mapper made like 75% of it, it's probably not okay, while something like 50/50 would work.
But in cases where the mapset host has more drain time than the others anyways, for example if he also mapped an extra diff for this map, then the drain time of the collab diff doesn't matter. This is probably hard to word and implement into the rule but it's quite simple to understand I think.
Refills

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

I agree with what pishi said about the amount of diffs being the only possible measurement as of right now. The "if necessary" thing could be explained by determining that drain time is only taken into account in collab diffs when the spread is arranged in a way that would make someone else other than the mapset host the biggest contributor, for example: The mapset host mapped Insane, while mapper x made a normal gd. The hard diff is a collab between both of them. In that case, the respective drain time each mapper mapped is considered. If the gd mapper made like 75% of it, it's probably not okay, while something like 50/50 would work.
But in cases where the mapset host has more drain time than the others anyways, for example if he also mapped an extra diff for this map, then the drain time of the collab diff doesn't matter. This is probably hard to word and implement into the rule but it's quite simple to understand I think.
The mapset host must have an equal amount or more difficulties than any other contributor. This is to provide credit where credit is due. If there is a collab difficulty, drain time may be taken into account, depending if the biggest contributor has the same amount of difficulties.
How about something like this?
Serizawa Haruki

[ - Jax - ] wrote:

The mapset host must have an equal amount or more difficulties than any other contributor. This is to provide credit where credit is due. If there is a collab difficulty, drain time may be taken into account, depending if the biggest contributor has the same amount of difficulties.
How about something like this?
I'd rather use pishi's wording and add something to it because it seems clearer to me.
A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creators. This is to provide credit where credit is due. Collab difficulties are only considered partial difficulties, and drain time will be used to determine the amount of contribution if it may cause someone other than the mapset host to be the biggest contributor of the mapset.
Refills

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

[ - Jax - ] wrote:

The mapset host must have an equal amount or more difficulties than any other contributor. This is to provide credit where credit is due. If there is a collab difficulty, drain time may be taken into account, depending if the biggest contributor has the same amount of difficulties.
How about something like this?
I'd rather use pishi's wording and add something to it because it seems clearer to me.
A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creators. This is to provide credit where credit is due. Collab difficulties are only considered partial difficulties, and drain time will be used to determine the amount of contribution if it may cause someone other than the mapset host to be the biggest contributor of the mapset.
Yeah, that seems fair.
4n3c

pishifat wrote:

4n3c wrote:

if we are amending the rule, it might be better to integrate what pishi wrote about "mapped by user" on site/profile listings instead of in addition to all the metrics associated with contribution
isn't that what "This is to provide credit where credit is due." in the rule is already doing?
not really, there's often a correlation but they're not the same. i suggested this initially because i thought we could come up with something more comprehensive after seeing https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6813335 (aka not drain time), but for the purposes of what's being discussed now there's no difference in effect between two
Aiseca

[ - Jax - ] wrote:

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

[ - Jax - ] wrote:

The mapset host must have an equal amount or more difficulties than any other contributor. This is to provide credit where credit is due. If there is a collab difficulty, drain time may be taken into account, depending if the biggest contributor has the same amount of difficulties.
How about something like this?
I'd rather use pishi's wording and add something to it because it seems clearer to me.
A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creators. This is to provide credit where credit is due. Collab difficulties are only considered partial difficulties, and drain time will be used to determine the amount of contribution if it may cause someone other than the mapset host to be the biggest contributor of the mapset.
Yeah, that seems fair.
Same page as Jax.
---------------
This question maybe needless, but just wondering...: How to determine if it is applicable acceptable the parts that have been made if the drain time will be used?

Ex. 15sec slow section collab (particularly long notes) of mapper A vs 15sec section collab of mapper B on a normal speed (which may contain density and complexity).
Refills

Aiseca wrote:

This question maybe needless, but just wondering...: How to determine if it is applicable acceptable the parts that have been made if the drain time will be used?

Ex. 15sec slow section collab (particularly long notes) of mapper A vs 15sec section collab of mapper B on a normal speed (which may contain density and complexity).
Depends how much effort that was put in basically in that situation. For example, slidershapes would be taken into account of how complex they are.
Serizawa Haruki

[ - Jax - ] wrote:

Aiseca wrote:

This question maybe needless, but just wondering...: How to determine if it is applicable acceptable the parts that have been made if the drain time will be used?

Ex. 15sec slow section collab (particularly long notes) of mapper A vs 15sec section collab of mapper B on a normal speed (which may contain density and complexity).
Depends how much effort that was put in basically in that situation. For example, slidershapes would be taken into account of how complex they are.
That's not really possible because you can't measure how calm/intense a part is or the effort that was put into mapping it. RC rules should be as clear as possible and stuff like this would only add unnecessary confusion/ambiguity imo
tatatat
I think how it is right now is perfectly fine. There is one simple solution to all your problems. Map more difficulties than your GD'ers. Laziness should not be encouraged. You should ALWAYS map more than your GDer's, otherwise how can you post it as your content and upload it yourself? It should be the GD'ers mapset who put more work into it than you. (I'm not saying you as in you Nao Tomori, but you as in a general you.)
Serizawa Haruki

tatatat wrote:

I think how it is right now is perfectly fine. There is one simple solution to all your problems. Map more difficulties than your GD'ers. Laziness should not be encouraged. You should ALWAYS map more than your GDer's, otherwise how can you post it as your content and upload it yourself? It should be the GD'ers mapset who put more work into it than you. (I'm not saying you as in you Nao Tomori, but you as in a general you.)
That's not an actual solution, especially due to the new spread rules. Imagine a 4:15 song where the mapper wants to map an Extra. Since he also needs an Insane, somebody else makes a gd for him (there can be various reasons for this, laziness is not one of them). In this case, the gd mapper must map the same amount of breaks in the map even if he doesn't want to. And you can't tell the mapset host to just map an additional difficulty because it's simply not needed for the spread.
tatatat

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

tatatat wrote:

I think how it is right now is perfectly fine. There is one simple solution to all your problems. Map more difficulties than your GD'ers. Laziness should not be encouraged. You should ALWAYS map more than your GDer's, otherwise how can you post it as your content and upload it yourself? It should be the GD'ers mapset who put more work into it than you. (I'm not saying you as in you Nao Tomori, but you as in a general you.)
That's not an actual solution, especially due to the new spread rules. Imagine a 4:15 song where the mapper wants to map an Extra. Since he also needs an Insane, somebody else makes a gd for him (there can be various reasons for this, laziness is not one of them). In this case, the gd mapper must map the same amount of breaks in the map even if he doesn't want to. And you can't tell the mapset host to just map an additional difficulty because it's simply not needed for the spread.
The GD mapper doesn't need to map the same breaks as the mapset host(as far as I am aware of the rules), the host has to not include any extra breaks not included in the GD mapper's diff. GDer can map a many breaks as they want within reason.
Serizawa Haruki

tatatat wrote:

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

tatatat wrote:

I think how it is right now is perfectly fine. There is one simple solution to all your problems. Map more difficulties than your GD'ers. Laziness should not be encouraged. You should ALWAYS map more than your GDer's, otherwise how can you post it as your content and upload it yourself? It should be the GD'ers mapset who put more work into it than you. (I'm not saying you as in you Nao Tomori, but you as in a general you.)
That's not an actual solution, especially due to the new spread rules. Imagine a 4:15 song where the mapper wants to map an Extra. Since he also needs an Insane, somebody else makes a gd for him (there can be various reasons for this, laziness is not one of them). In this case, the gd mapper must map the same amount of breaks in the map even if he doesn't want to. And you can't tell the mapset host to just map an additional difficulty because it's simply not needed for the spread.
The GD mapper doesn't need to map the same breaks as the mapset host(as far as I am aware of the rules), the host has to not include any extra breaks not included in the GD mapper's diff. GDer can map a many breaks as they want within reason.
I said the same amount of breaks. The GD mapper can't map the entire song if the host decided to have a break somewhere. This proposal is supposed to fix that issue.
tatatat

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

tatatat wrote:

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

tatatat wrote:

I think how it is right now is perfectly fine. There is one simple solution to all your problems. Map more difficulties than your GD'ers. Laziness should not be encouraged. You should ALWAYS map more than your GDer's, otherwise how can you post it as your content and upload it yourself? It should be the GD'ers mapset who put more work into it than you. (I'm not saying you as in you Nao Tomori, but you as in a general you.)
That's not an actual solution, especially due to the new spread rules. Imagine a 4:15 song where the mapper wants to map an Extra. Since he also needs an Insane, somebody else makes a gd for him (there can be various reasons for this, laziness is not one of them). In this case, the gd mapper must map the same amount of breaks in the map even if he doesn't want to. And you can't tell the mapset host to just map an additional difficulty because it's simply not needed for the spread.
The GD mapper doesn't need to map the same breaks as the mapset host(as far as I am aware of the rules), the host has to not include any extra breaks not included in the GD mapper's diff. GDer can map a many breaks as they want within reason.
I said the same amount of breaks. The GD mapper can't map the entire song if the host decided to have a break somewhere. This proposal is supposed to fix that issue.
imo the mapper should always map more than the GDers, whether they mapped 30 seconds a person, or 30 minutes a person. Always more drain time for the host. If you can't get more drain time as the host, you should map more of it yourself(or remove all GDs). I see absolutely no problem with having to map more drain time than any GD'ers, in fact I think it should be even more strict and require the host to have more drain time than the total of all GDer's drain time combined but thats not what this post is about. Drain time is an objective way to measure the amount of work contributed by each person working on a mapset.

This will also probably be my last post in this thread. Goodnight!
pishifat
A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creators. This is to provide credit where credit is due. Collab difficulties are only considered partial difficulties, and drain time will be used to determine the amount of contribution when a guest has beatmapped significantly more than the host.
adjusted the last sentence based on some of the discussion above. i'd rather not draw a strict line for what's "significantly more than the host" because that's what sucks about the current rule. best to assume something like what the proposal says is in effect and pushing the limits could result in stricter rc clarification:

Nao Tomori wrote:

BNs can use their judgement in collab situations, so strict 50%+ does not need to be enforced; something like 45/55 split would also be acceptable, 35/65 not so much.
tatata seems to be saying strict drain time is better, which everyone else on the thread disagrees with, so i'll keep it as is

pr coming soon
Okoratu
REE

any guest difficulty creator should be singular to avoid people thinking this applies to the total amount of difficulties in a set (beatmap creators together vs singular guest difficultes)
pishifat
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