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pp: new ranking system

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jogfi2002
189 posts
Joined July 2009
jogfi2002
I'm still puzzled by this new ranking system.
Does the amount of maps that you have passed matters?
And I just can't understand how can a player played a few hundred times can reach a high level at about #9000. I even can't see any amazing records in his recent history(actually, it has nothing in it)
Winshley
osu! Alumni
2,384 posts
Joined May 2011
Winshley
On the "Performance" ranking list, having pp difference for the "minus pp numbers" is not a good idea. I would rather see how many points they have earned/reduced instead.

On off-topic note, the Performance Ranking on our profile has thousand separator, while the Ranked Score ranking is not. :P
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

ReVeNg3r wrote:

you do not worry about farming?
If the system becomes possible to farm when people understands how it works, then it doesn't really do what it's supposed to do. Players will eventually somewhat guess how this works in a few months, the fact that peppy is saying he will explain how it works just means he is confident about it not being a farming system. :P
Tom69_old
Tom69_old

peppy wrote:

Tom's observation was also before the stats were even updated.
According to the stats page it updated "10m ago" when I wrote the post. Made sure to check that.
Ranks were all like 1-2 hours before.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
The number was when they started updating, thus not accurate unless you were in the top few.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
If decay works on existing old scores compared to new scores made in the top1000, and considers the decay difference between players with higher pp and lower pp from when their scores were set... I think you must be using a supercomputer to do your calculations.

Say Joe Soap sets a 2009 score, and only now in 2012 Joe Bloggs beats it, will it reward Joe Bloggs less pp for that?
The calculations took like 4 days at first, it's gotta be something like this, right?
Tom69_old
Tom69_old

peppy wrote:

The number was when they started updating, thus not accurate unless you were in the top few.
It didn't improve until now, though.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami
Peppy mentioned today in the #osu chat that a Hidden SS score is better than a 96% Hidden+DoubleTime score in terms of Performance Points by about 50%. I'd just like to point out that if this is truly the case and it remains, this ranking system will be inaccurate for a number of reasons.

The main reasons are that the actual score and individual map ranking offered by Hidden+DoubleTime scores are quite a bit higher and it is typically much more difficult to achieve a 96% Hidden+DoubleTime score than a 100% score with Hidden in most beatmaps (e.g. Cookiezi's score on http://osu.ppy.sh/b/95360 as opposed to ragelewa's). Because of these two reasons, skilled players will typically strive to set low-accuracy Hidden+DoubleTime scores as opposed to high-accuracy Hidden ones, even if a number outside of the actual score tells them that they are doing worse.

Another flaw in this system of ranking is that because Hidden SS scores are worth less points than a Hidden+DoubleTime score with low accuracy, it is impossible to "fix" Performance Points by replacing a former Hidden+DoubleTime score with a normal Hidden score. This means that even if a player wants to increase his or her Performance Points after setting a higher score, he or she will be unable to. This will make moderately skilled players who can hit accurately lower ranked in terms of Performance Points than high-level players like Cookiezi and White Wolf who set ridiculous 95% Hidden+DoubleTime scores, at least for some individual maps.

I won't be able to take this ranking system seriously if accuracy is so important to it.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
You are wrong on all accounts. Go shoot yourself.
excellions
excellions
LOL



:)
Pizzicato
2,739 posts
Joined February 2011
Pizzicato
does the new system detect the hardest map too?
there are some maps like this, so yeah

Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami
But, no I'm not. Everything that I said in that post is true, except for maybe the final point (the one about being unable to "fix" scores), assuming that this system only accepts the play that offers the highest number of Performance Points for ranking. Because every other stat in this game only accepts the play with the highest score, I assume the same is true with this new ranking system.
ReVeNg3r
660 posts
Joined August 2010
ReVeNg3r
only counting top40s is insufficient...this is inaccurate,i see there some better players below me..also is true that when they play unrankable they can´t rank up..
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Please read, and don't assume.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]

ReVeNg3r wrote:

only counting top40s is insufficient...this is inaccurate,i see there some better players below me..also is true that when they play unrankable they can´t rank up..
wtf did I just read
BlazingFX
83 posts
Joined April 2011
BlazingFX
So what does it mean if I'm losing 1 or 2 points every update, even if I'm active?
ReVeNg3r
660 posts
Joined August 2010
ReVeNg3r
#1 White Wolf hmmm.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
Cookiezi doesn't even play, so it's unreasonable to demand that he stays at #1. Everyone knows that he's #1 in skill so it doesn't matter.
Glazbom_old
Glazbom_old
^this
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami
I don't think it's too much to ask for the best player to be #1, regardless of inactivity. If it's required to play new maps to become #1, then it'd mean farming is possible in this ranking system.
bwross
265 posts
Joined December 2009
bwross

BlazingFX wrote:

So what does it mean if I'm losing 1 or 2 points every update, even if I'm active?
I can't speak for the actual PP system, but if I was designing a system to meet the requirements presented, then in addition to just playing the game to gain (or maintain rank), the plays would have to be statistically relevant by some metric. Meaning that you'd need to be proving that your rank should be higher, which would require playing maps that are sufficiently hard (or modified to be) for your current rank and then playing them well enough to prove that you dominate them. Playing maps well beneath your level would never be worth anything (ie only people with a really low rating would gain anything from going around top ranking Normals, and they'd very quickly run into a wall... making farming meaningless).

Of course, there's also the issue right now that I'd be wary about comparing things from update to update, because we don't know when or how the system might have been adjusted (but it seems to be stable for the last few). But you may still want to experiment by playing some harder maps and seeing if things don't turn around.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Kyou-kun wrote:

I don't think it's too much to ask for the best player to be #1, regardless of inactivity. If it's required to play new maps to become #1, then it'd mean farming is possible in this ranking system.
It's too much to ask. He quit playing. If we think about it that way, WW is the best player right now (just because he actually plays). Cookiezi is the best player ever, but comparing a player who doesn't play anymore to players who play, is just silly.
BlazingFX
83 posts
Joined April 2011
BlazingFX

bwross wrote:

BlazingFX wrote:

So what does it mean if I'm losing 1 or 2 points every update, even if I'm active?
I can't speak for the actual PP system, but if I was designing a system to meet the requirements presented, then in addition to just playing the game to gain (or maintain rank), the plays would have to be statistically relevant by some metric. Meaning that you'd need to be proving that your rank should be higher, which would require playing maps that are sufficiently hard (or modified to be) for your current rank and then playing them well enough to prove that you dominate them. Playing maps well beneath your level would never be worth anything (ie only people with a really low rating would gain anything from going around top ranking Normals, and they'd very quickly run into a wall... making farming meaningless).

Of course, there's also the issue right now that I'd be wary about comparing things from update to update, because we don't know when or how the system might have been adjusted (but it seems to be stable for the last few). But you may still want to experiment by playing some harder maps and seeing if things don't turn around.
Thanks ^^ I do play hard/insanes too, just without mods, so I don't typically rank in the top 50. (so you don't see this in my profile)
I play the easy ones for SS since i'm an acc hoar ;P
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami

ragelewa wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

I don't think it's too much to ask for the best player to be #1, regardless of inactivity. If it's required to play new maps to become #1, then it'd mean farming is possible in this ranking system.
It's too much to ask. He quit playing. If we think about it that way, WW is the best player right now (just because he actually plays). Cookiezi is the best player ever, but comparing a player who doesn't play anymore to players who play, is just silly.
But an objective system that doesn't have such knowledge shouldn't take a player's career activity into account. It should only take into account the player's skill. Even if the system did somehow have that knowledge, I still disagree with your claim that White Wolf is the best player right now. Cookiezi still exists so he is still the best player until someone exceeds him, even after his death.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
I like cake.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
This is not a pure skill ranking, it's a performance ranking.
Cookiezi has quit the game a while ago, so he doesn't perform.
People that actually perform well at the moment can pass him.

Makes a lot of sense to me.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami

Luna wrote:

This is not a pure skill ranking, it's a performance ranking.
Cookiezi has quit the game a while ago, so he doesn't perform.
People that actually perform well at the moment can pass him.

Makes a lot of sense to me.
But nobody really can pass Cookiezi in most of his top scores. He's still the best.
spar1770
2 posts
Joined July 2011
spar1770
...
Last edited by spar1770 , edited 2 times in total.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Kyou-kun wrote:

Luna wrote:

This is not a pure skill ranking, it's a performance ranking.
Cookiezi has quit the game a while ago, so he doesn't perform.
People that actually perform well at the moment can pass him.

Makes a lot of sense to me.
But nobody really can pass Cookiezi in most of his top scores. He's still the best.
Like that matters. Luna has a point and you can't go against it by saying that cookiezi is still the best.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami

ragelewa wrote:

Like that matters. Luna has a point and you can't go against it by saying that cookiezi is still the best.
But Luna's point is that people can pass him. I went against it by saying that people can't pass him; he's still better than everyone else. He only "stopped performing" less than a month ago, anyways. That's more of a small break than the end of a career.
maal
maal
donkey dick.

it's everywhere
jakeisquite
5 posts
Joined April 2012
jakeisquite

Kyou-kun wrote:

ragelewa wrote:

Like that matters. Luna has a point and you can't go against it by saying that cookiezi is still the best.
But Luna's point is that people can pass him. I went against it by saying that people can't pass him; he's still better than everyone else. He only "stopped performing" less than a month ago, anyways. That's more of a small break than the end of a career.
OK, we get it. You have a hard-on for cookiezi. Now respond with something productive instead of declaring your love for him in every post.
Mukku
1,434 posts
Joined February 2009
Mukku
^ Boy, that sure was productive!

jakeisquite how about you start learning how to not be an asshole
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Kyou-kun wrote:

But Luna's point is that people can pass him. I went against it by saying that people can't pass him; he's still better than everyone else. He only "stopped performing" less than a month ago, anyways. That's more of a small break than the end of a career.
Did you miss the entire thing about "performing"? If you read that then you would understand. Maybe you're just ignoring that part on purpose.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

Kyou-kun wrote:

He only "stopped performing" less than a month ago, anyways. That's more of a small break than the end of a career.

Cookiezi wrote:

i'll quit osu playing
don't ask play or why
And what ragelewa said.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe
As much as I feel Kyou-kun is correct, I kinda have to agree with the points ragelewa brings up. SImply because this is a "Performance" rating.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami

JappyBabes wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

He only "stopped performing" less than a month ago, anyways. That's more of a small break than the end of a career.

Cookiezi wrote:

i'll quit osu playing
don't ask play or why
And what ragelewa said.
Just because he said he's quitting osu! doesn't mean that it's true. Anyone who actually knows the petty reasoning behind it would realize that he's coming back eventually anyways. Besides, so far it's been nothing more than a short break.
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell
Then shine with the truth upon us, and tell us the "truth" behind that bad words that cookiezi wrote, since I am not one of that chosen people to know all the secrets of life.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
This is supposed to fix having a stagnant ranking. If you want the same people in the top 50 forever, then follow this simple step:

Gon
455 posts
Joined November 2010
Gon
as much as we all think that cookiezi is still #1 (in our hearts), you can't expect the pp system to rank him as such; cookiezi hasn't been playing for weeks now and WW has 1700+ top ranks (however obscure) which is a ridiculous achievement by itself

i honestly don't think you can just make a new account, SS big black, and watch your pp fly to 6.6k. there is -some- sort of farming involved, one song or maybe a hundred doesnt cover all aspects of the game imo
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