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How to handle hybrid mode beatmapsets?

Require two Nominations per mode included by mode-specific Beatmap Nominators
66.41% 85
Make them unrankable
10.16% 13
I have a different opinion that I will post on the thread
23.44% 30
Total votes: 128
Polling ended 2018-08-26 19:55:43
Polling is over and can not be voted on anymore.
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posted

J1NX1337 wrote:

I would prefer 2 nominators for the main gamemode of the hybrid set, and 1 for every secondary gamemode.
I also agree with this.completely, I feel like getting 2 BNs per mode would be overkill and discourage mappers from making hybrid sets in the long run.

Though, at least 1 BN for each secondary mode is absolutely necessary, to ensure that at least each mode is checked from someone capable of fully understanding that specific mode properly.
posted

Ascendance wrote:

Think rationally before you type, reducing the amount of BNs for combining sets together makes no sense and will never make sense.
Idk why you acting like you're the most rational guy here, a bit rude imo lol. Actually Kibbleru describes pretty well why having 2 nominators for each gamemode isn't the best solution here, because of how RC is right now. ->

Kibbleru wrote:

in my opinion, due to the special spread requirements for hybrid sets (ie u only need 1 ctb diff piggybacking off std)

this causes a confusion with what we should do, obviously it would be ridiculous to ask for two ctb BNs to check one ctb diff.

tbh i would prefer that if we had hybrid diffs, they would all require a full set.

then follow the first proposal.
If ranking criteria about hybrid stays the same:
- 'main gamemode' -> 2 BNs (can have multiple main gamemodes) (Maybe considered for having 3 difficulties or more for that gamemode).
- 'secondary gamemode' -> 1 BN
That's better than what we have now. This will also need implementation from devs, but I guess you guys are aware of that already.

If hybrid sets need full-gamemode-sets, meaning changes in RC:
- every gamemode on hybrid set would need 2 BNs
- ultimately make hybrids unrankables :C

I think having hybrids set incentived mappers to do multiple gamemodes sets, mainly because RC allows them to be a bit easier to do and to rank. Otherwise why do hybrid sets exist? Why not forcing single gamemode sets only from the very beginning of osu? I think this thing about main mode and secondary mode could finally define better the way for hybrid sets.
posted
I sort of like this kind of idea coming out, more eyes on mapsets are good for the quality standards, but I really don't think adding more bns to check is entirely justified nor is removing amount of certain types of bns (current way). This is mostly because of the qualified section, maybe proposals like this try to make the workload in qualified section a bit less but that will never truly happen. DQ modding will occur for a map regardless of how many people support it/push it for ranked.

I think having two bns check any set as a minimum for qualified requirements is already a lot for 95% of people. And adding more bns required per set not only discourages hybrid sets (esp since minigame mode bns are afk way more than std) but it also just adds to workload of everyone imo

e> the most logical thing imo for which game mode is the most is drain time in that game mode, and usually that will encompass the diff with highest SR, and with ties for most would just require 2 per mode within the tie
posted
I didnt read through all of it, but I spotted a bit of talk about two BNs per mode being too much. I dont agree with this.

If you were to rank each mode as a standalone set, you'd still need two of the respective BNs to check each and qualify. I dont know why this would be an issue if a hybrid set followed the same idea, since it kinda is just that - two standalone modes, but as one set. It's always possible that a single BN misses something that a second one could catch. Being lazy about catching another BN isnt really ... uh, too much of a thing when quality becomes more and more important.

Anyway, I think I like the idea that was posted in the Discord the most, where you'd need 5 hype and two seperated nominations per mode. Seems like the most fair method to me.
posted
It's not about laziness tbh, finding 2 BNs is already pretty hard for most mappers, so having to find 2 additional BNs for, let's say, a muzu and a oni is quite hard and would cause the map to go through the ranking process significantly slower or maybe not being ranked at all since there are not many BNs for the non-standard game modes currently.
Also, a hybrid mapset shouldn't be treated exactly in the same way as 2 separate mapsets because then it would be simpler to just make 2 sets and rank them separately, then there's no point in doing a hybrid mapset in the first place.
posted

Yauxo wrote:

If you were to rank each mode as a standalone set, you'd still need two of the respective BNs to check each and qualify. I dont know why this would be an issue if a hybrid set followed the same idea, since it kinda is just that - two standalone modes, but as one set.
This isn't exactly true. Because you cannot rank a Muzukashii/Oni spread if the length of the song is less than 3 minutes. Same goes for the other modes. That's why people have brought up the idea of having 2+1, summing up to 3 BNs check the mapset, based on what the spread is. Because there are significantly different workloads for hybrids sets. They would be checking 2 difficulties verses 4 difficulties. (Obviously there are different cases, but this is an example.)
posted
also think its worth mentioning a number of BNs quite openly say stuff like they don't want to touch hybrid sets lol

so requiring more bns will be pretty annoying
posted

Yauxo wrote:

I didnt read through all of it, but I spotted a bit of talk about two BNs per mode being too much. I dont agree with this.

If you were to rank each mode as a standalone set, you'd still need two of the respective BNs to check each and qualify. I dont know why this would be an issue if a hybrid set followed the same idea, since it kinda is just that - two standalone modes, but as one set. It's always possible that a single BN misses something that a second one could catch. Being lazy about catching another BN isnt really ... uh, too much of a thing when quality becomes more and more important.

Anyway, I think I like the idea that was posted in the Discord the most, where you'd need 5 hype and two seperated nominations per mode. Seems like the most fair method to me.
I agree with the bold part because it's exactly what Ascendance wrote that it makes 100% sense to have the same requirements for the additional modes in the hybrid set they should follow. And I also support the idea that at LEAST one BN exist for every mode that can be made responsible to make sure the respective mode is fine.

See, the example eiri- gave is good: Muzukashii/Oni spreads are 1/2 to 2/3 of what an actual and full mapset usually looks like and unless they meet the drain time requirement they cannot be ranked like that in a standalone set, since they do not follow the RC for Taiko. So they are already an exception in the regular RC.

The general idea to have two BNs is to double check. Meanwhile we have plenty Bns that are proficient in multiple modes but it's the matter of question how much do "half" sets needs to be checked. I wholeheartly support the idea I made some posts above since I think it's by far a much more flexible and fair compromise with the community and the regulations.

bor wrote:

also think its worth mentioning a number of BNs quite openly say stuff like they don't want to touch hybrid sets lol

so requiring more bns will be pretty annoying
that however is because they don't want to be made responsible for the mapset getting potentially dqed for other modes so having seperated nominations for every mode may encourage them to touch hybrid sets.
posted
This poll looks a bit skewed in terms of the options made, would probably be better redoing this later with options for the suggestions given in this thread to fix that, rather than relying on people to do trains in the reply section with "I agree with x". Would make more sense to think of this more as a "give your ideas here so that we can vote on them later" kinda thing, and then vote afterwards.

I can see where everyone is coming from with the 2+1 idea, since generally hybrid sets are a main mode and then another 2-4 other mode diffs, and how hybrids in theory help people discover or transition into other modes making that potential loss of quality worth it in the long run.

However, I can also see where option #1 is coming from, since the only difference between a hybrid and a standalone set is whether or not they're bundled together (spread requirements being the sole exception), and that putting one set onto another set shouldn't mean either mode needs less quality assurance.

Say you've got a 9 diff standard set and a 2 diff taiko set, both their own sets. The taiko set has way less things to check, but it still needs 2 nominators. The standard set has way more things to check, but it also needs 2 nominators. Now let's assume they're put together into one hybrid set. Suddenly taiko needs less checks, simply because the difficulties are in the same set, rather than two separate sets. The content is the same, it's just combined. This is seemingly were people start disagreeing; is difficulties of different modes put together into one set, a good enough thing to have in ranked, to require less checking?

There was this other proposal flying around about adapting it after # of diffs or content, but current rules say even a 30s easy single diff set will need 2 nominators so adapting nominators required after content for hybrids only probably isn't a great idea, would be better making that into it's own proposal in such a case and then applying it to hybrids as well.

From what I can tell the advantages (or at least some of them) of each approach is:

2 nominations per mode
- Handled the same way as standalone sets (except spread), making the process for each mode less confusing.
- Easier to implement since it's always the same, less conditions and complications.
- Maintains the same amount of quality assurance for each mode regardless of hybrid or standalone.
basically: More straightforward and consistent

2 nominations for main mode, 1 for others
- Easier for the creator to find nominators and get the set ranked
- Greater incentive to make hybrid sets, leading to more hybrid sets in ranked
- Makes each mode less separated from one another, leading to potentially more balance and community interaction between player bases.
basically: More balanced and encourages mode diversity

Either could be implemented quickly through just adding more nomination slots depending on mode amount, but the latter is harder to implement properly (like actually separating nomination buttons so hybrid mode nominators can nominate multiple times etc), due to it's arbitrary nature of what constitutes as the main mode. If nothing else it could prioritize one mode over another without exception, for example standard < taiko < catch < mania to decide which one is the main if two have the same amount, in which case it would be more doable.
posted

Naxess wrote:

Would make more sense to think of this more as a "give your ideas here so that we can vote on them later" kinda thing, and then vote afterwards.
Yeah, that's what we will probably go with. Also Naxess basically summed up my opinion on this.
posted
I totally glanced over the possibility of having only two or three difficulties for the minor mode, if you want to call it that. My bad.

I kind of do agree that, in case of the example given by eiri-, if a hybrid set only includes two diffs as opposed to a full spread, there's less workload for that respective BN. I do however also still think that it's a good trait to have multiple people check of the maps anyway. There's never something wrong with getting additional opinions onto possible controversal topics.
Maybe that's just my pre-2018 way of thinking though.

With that said, Im kinda indecisive on that topic. I think quality assurance is still very important and spending a bit more time to make absolutely sure everything is right is time well spent, but I also see the downside of lesser popular gamemodes where it might be a pain to find an additional BN.
posted
personal opinion, I think it's better to add an extra nominations to the more diff mode. more strict checking of modes with more diff is needed to reduce the error rate. (compared to the smaller number of diff mode)
posted
I think hybrid mapsets should be treated as if they were just different mapsets for one song, thus requiring check of 2 BNs for each respective mode and, obviously, following general ranking criteria of each game mode involved including different mania key count modes.
posted
same as Nao Tomori's suggestion (3rd Post or sth)
2 nominations for "main" Mode, 1 for each additional mode

if there are multiple modes with highest difficulty count. the map owner decides what mode is viewed as the main one
posted
alternate solution to hybrids would be voting: https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/6779532 into the RC

not my call i'd want to ask how the respective game modes feel about this
posted
i'll rather keep the current system with 1 nomination per mode but one extra bn is who are qualified to nominate all the modes of the hybrid set is required to let these maps ranked so there is any problem of what consistues a main/secondary modes

ex:
1 set of std with 7 diffs /taiko with 7 diffs : 1 bn required for std and taiko + 1 bn who can nominate std and taiko
1 marathon set of one unique diff of each mode : 1 bn required for all modes + 1 bn who can nominate all

the main problem of this would be the lack of bn who are qualified for more than 2 modes so alternately, we can merge it with the solution #1 by mao

ex :
1 marathon set of std/taiko/catch with 1 diff : 1 bn required for std/taiko/catch + 1 bn who can nominate std/taiko/catch OR 1 bn who can nominate std/taiko with 1 extra bn who can nominate catch (all the combinaisons like taiko/catch + 1 extra std etc... works) OR do litterally the 2 bn required per modes if any bn who can nominate multiple modes aren't present

for the extra efforts that the multi-mode bn have to do, if he ranks a hybrid set, the score given should be double or even triple than a normal nomination/heart.
posted

realy0_ wrote:

i'll rather keep the current system with 1 nomination per mode but one extra bn is who are qualified to nominate all the modes of the hybrid set is required to let these maps ranked so there is any problem of what consistues a main/secondary modes

ex:
1 set of std with 7 diffs /taiko with 7 diffs : 1 bn required for std and taiko + 1 bn who can nominate std and taiko
1 marathon set of one unique diff of each mode : 1 bn required for all modes + 1 bn who can nominate all

the main problem of this would be the lack of bn who are qualified for more than 2 modes so alternately, we can merge it with the solution #1 by mao

ex :
1 marathon set of std/taiko/catch with 1 diff : 1 bn required for std/taiko/catch + 1 bn who can nominate std/taiko/catch OR 1 bn who can nominate std/taiko with 1 extra bn who can nominate catch (all the combinaisons like taiko/catch + 1 extra std etc... works) OR do litterally the 2 bn required per modes if any bn who can nominate multiple modes aren't present

for the extra efforts that the multi-mode bn have to do, if he ranks a hybrid set, the score given should be double or even triple than a normal nomination/heart.
As you already said, this doesn't work at all due to the lack of multi mode BNs (there are almost none currently). It would basically force the only multi mode BN to check the map which doesn't make sense so this proposal is not really a good solution
posted
can we just go back to something similar to what has been done in the past years?
lets take a look at this map: t/142823/start=0 (4 modes map)




dkun count as std icon & also bubble

You were basically forbidden to bubble if an icon mode were missing. (I am really sure it was a rule back in 2015 & even before 2015)
it actually worked really fine, I have no idea why this rule has been removed.

important edit: stop call desperate-kun dkun for god sake
posted
i'd support the idea of having different nominations for different game modes though you gotta remember that (as far as i remember) the reason why the game mode icons were deprecated was specifically due to that kind of system not being a thing on the so called modding v2.

in my opinion this is one of those topics that you can't talk much about because there is so much stuff planned we don't know about, that is actually difficult to tell if developers would agree with something like this in the first place.

that said, i'm against implementing this as some sort of rules for bns, as it makes everything more complicated and confusing. if it were to be implemented, it needs to be a fixed system that detects the amount of diffs and vary the number of nominations required depending on the spread.
posted

Kin wrote:

You were basically forbidden to bubble if an icon mode were missing. (I am really sure it was a rule back in 2015 & even before 2015)
it actually worked really fine, I have no idea why this rule has been removed.
They had a meaning back in 2013 but it was removed with the QAT/BAT split in 2014 and later stated in the very first BN rules: https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/366504

Old BN Rules wrote:

3.5. osu!/osu!taiko/osu!catch/osu!mania Icons
They used to have an actual meaning, but they do not anymore. Using them brings you nothing, expresses nothing and does nothing. So do not use them.
Anyways, as Kagetsu stated implementation into mv2 will be a crucial step. The only band-aid fix I could think of would be that Nominators need to post a Note but that would make nomination resets/pops pretty messy.
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