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Handling hybrid mode beatmapsets

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How to handle hybrid mode beatmapsets?

Require two Nominations per mode included by mode-specific Beatmap Nominators
85
66.41%
Make them unrankable
13
10.16%
I have a different opinion that I will post on the thread
30
23.44%
Total votes: 128
Polling ended
Topic Starter
Mao

What’s wrong?



  1. In our current system hybrid mode sets need the same amount of nominations as any other mapset even though they basically are multiple mapsets in one. This can cause that one or two modes are not checked by a Nominator. This leads to many avoidable disqualifications and pops due to insufficient checking.
  2. Mappers abuse this system by adding other mode difficulties to avoid getting one or even two Nominators of their respective mode.
  3. The current system leads to massive confusing as to who is to blame when a mapset gets disqualified for unrankables in a mode the Nominators who nominated it were not proficient in.


How to fix it?

Solution #1: Require two Nominations per mode included by mode-specific Beatmap Nominators
  1. If we treat every mode as its own individual entity, a mapset will need two nominations for every single mode. For probationary members, the same rules as per usual will apply.
  2. The best way to handle this would be to add per-mode Nomination functionality on the new website. Example
  3. On the old website, Nominators can just simply post with icons of their mode.

Solution #2: Make them unrankable
  1. Making hybrid mode mapsets unrankable would solve the problems presented above but it would take away a part of the game many people enjoy.


Note: If you decide to post, make sure that you explain your point in-depth.
UndeadCapulet
requiring a bunch of extra bn's for hybrids just leads to hybrids becoming rly unpopular since finding all those extra bn's is super timeconsuming, which is how we ended up with the system we have today

but the system we have today leads to sets not being checked thoroughly enough, which is also problematic

i voted to remove hybrids entirely, but if people want to keep them just make it so they only need 1 additional mode-specific bn per mode, not 2.
Natsu
Two nominators per game mode would be nice, so each mode nominator can take the full responsability for a DQ, tbh even for us nominators is kinda scary to take care of hybrid sets atm.

Make them unrankable also sounds fine, but this can lead to less maps for the other game modes?
Nao Tomori
I have a different solution. Let me preface this by saying that this solution I am proposing is due to the historically extraordinarily low activity of non-standard mode BNs as a group relative to standard (since there's just many less maps and also the activity standards seem quite a bit more lax to me).

I think that one nomination should be required for each mode, and then one nomination for the mode with the most diffs. So a ENHIX - M O IO spread would need a taiko icon and two standard icons. I say this because finding two nominations for a game mode in which you as a standard mapper do not play and are not part of the community for is really hard - much harder than finding two nominations for your own game mode. That coupled with the activity level of the other game modes would make it very hard for hybrid sets to get ranked in a timely fashion as the host would struggle to find 4, 6 or 8 BNs, the majority of which would be people they don't talk to usually anyway. This can be implemented along side the separate mode nomination counter - each mode needs one nomination then a "capstone" nomination to qualify it.

This solution provides an optimal balance between quality control concerns and difficulty of ranking the set in my opinion. Maps like CBCC or Black Rover or whatever still need the two standard BNs and it doesn't become prohibitively painful to find all the other mode BNs either.

Two per mode is better than making them unrankable, that's just annoying both for people who prefer to GD than to make sets, and for people who map two game modes.
J1NX1337
I would prefer 2 nominators for the main gamemode of the hybrid set, and 1 for every secondary gamemode.
Stefan

J1NX1337 wrote:

I would prefer 2 nominators for the main gamemode of the hybrid set, and 1 for every secondary gamemode.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I see Hybrid sets dying otherwise. Making them completely unrankable sounds like a poor excuse not to bother about them at all so I am strongly against that. The question would however be: What would be considered as "main gamemode"?

You can claim that Standard with four difficulties is the main mode while you have a full 4-diff mapset for Taiko and three for Mania - both perfectly fine rankable as standalone mapsets. I think it matters what sort of difficulties and how many you have per set. Having an actual confirmation via nomination of the respective mode nominator is good to have but it should make sense lastly.
Nevo

J1NX1337 wrote:

I would prefer 2 nominators for the main gamemode of the hybrid set, and 1 for every secondary gamemode.
this seems like the most logical solution imo
Okoratu
that solution would be a clusterfuck because if i map two full sets in osu and taiko everyone gets confused and adding more conditionals along those lines seems lol
Arrival
I'm really hostile to a change of anything related to hybrid sets :

Let's talk about what you think is "wrong"
"In our current system hybrid mode sets need the same amount of nominations as any other mapset even though they basically are multiple mapsets in one. This can cause that one or two modes are not checked by a Nominator." -> BNs, when nominating a hybrid set, always (at least as long as i was in the team as far as i can remember) ask another BN a check up to see if the difficulties they aren't proefficient with are fine, even if there isn't a real nomination behind, i've never ever seen a hybrid set go to ranked without being checked by at least one BN of each mode.

Mappers abuse this system by adding other mode difficulties to avoid getting one or even two Nominators of their respective mode. -> I can understand but then, so what ? The problem is in the ranking system, not the hybrid set itself lol.

The current system leads to massive confusing as to who is to blame when a mapset gets disqualified for unrankables in a mode the Nominators who nominated it were not proficient in.
-> No ? The fault is and has always been always either on the BN of the respective mode, or a problem in communication.

Solution 1 would kill hybrid sets
Solution 2 would kill hybrid sets

-> Just make it so the main mode (the one the official mapper made difficulties for) requires 2 nominations and the other ones just 1, but official nominations, not simple check ups. This would also avoid the thing okorin said above me.
This way you can get rid oof your "#2 Hybrid Abuse problem" and "#1 and #3 Nomination problems"
Nao Tomori
but like 99%+ hybrid sets are a full spread + 2-3 other game mode diffs. if you map a full spread full mode thing then you would just pick one mode to be the main one or whatever (probably by drain time or just up to you) and then get 2 of those...
Stefan
Arrival: But you need to agree it's nonsense for bigger Hybrid sets you don't need BNs of every mode to get your map ranked currently, isn't it? Solution 1 is okay if it's altered to have at least one BN for every mode, Solution 2 is indeed not good.
Topic Starter
Mao

Arrival wrote:

BNs, when nominating a hybrid set, always (at least as long as i was in the team as far as i can remember) ask another BN a check up to see if the difficulties they aren't proefficient with are fine, even if there isn't a real nomination behind, i've never ever seen a hybrid set go to ranked without being checked by at least one BN of each mode.

This is not a requirement and has never been a requirement. Some Nominators do it, some don't. Getting Nominations for every mode would make that a formal procedure.

Arrival wrote:

The problem is in the ranking system, not the hybrid set itself lol.

That's what we are trying to fix with this.

Arrival wrote:

No ? The fault is and has always been always either on the BN of the respective mode, or a problem in communication.

That's actually not true, until a certain point both Nominators, no matter of which mode they were, were responsible for the whole hybrid set. The problem is that the understanding of this has kind of shifted to a point where nobody is really sure who to account for it anymore both amongst BNs and QATs.

Arrival wrote:

Just make it so the main mode (the one the official mapper made difficulties for) requires 2 nominations and the other ones just 1, but official nominations, not simple check ups.

What if the host maps the same amount of difficulties for every mode present? That would just make it more confusing than it already is.
iYiyo
Finding 2 BNs per gamemode means you'll have to find 8 BNs in total to rank a std,taiko,ctb&mania set, which basically means the death to those large hybrids sets.

I think 1 BN for each mode, and one final BN from the main mode would be way better. That way you somehow 'incentive' other gamemode sets which isn't bad at all in my opinion. Also you keep the procedure of checking every gamemode properly.

Now the question is how you define the main mode of an hybrid set. The one which has more difficulties? The one which has the hardest difficulty? A mix of last two?

EDIT: Another idea that came to my mind. What if a 'main mode' on hybrid sets is valid when that gamemode has at least 1 extra difficulty or higher (or maybe ~4.8* +)? That way you can have multiple 'main modes'. That would mean that hybrid sets with a lot of harder diffs for each gamemode will need multiple BNs, but I think it's fair enough because those sets are the ones that most of the times need more attention.
Topic Starter
Mao
The issue I see with "and one more nomination for every additional mode" is that I do not really get why these sets would need fewer Nominations than if you would try to rank the difficulties from the other mode separately. Especially now with the new spread rules two or even one diff sets are totally rankable and they still require two Nominations of their game mode too.
Nao Tomori
@iyiyo - most difficulties is the best way, since SR isn't really comparable between game modes (and really SR in minigame modes is pretty awful to begin with)

@mao - it isn't more confusing at all. it's just that the mapper has the choice which mode to get 2 nominations for, much like in the old times when hybrid marathons needed 3 bns and mappers could get 2 taiko 1 std or 2 std one taiko.

the reason for less BNs is what i explained above - it's much harder to find BNs for a mode you don't map or interact with, and making people find that many would just be the same as banning hybrids for most people since they can't gather than amount of manpower in a timely fashion.

in general i still have no idea why it's hard to understand that the person responsible for the map set being dq'd would be the person nominating the mode that caused the dq. why would i, a standard BN, be made responsible for a dq because (example) ayyri didnt put a 3/2 gap in her muzu? it isn't my responsibility, it's the taiko BN's since he judged it to be rankable and it wasn't. holding me responsible for that makes no sense because i nominated the standard side, not the taiko side. under a system with separate nomination counters this becomes easier to visualize since the BN's name would presumably only be attached to that mode's nomination counter on the new site, but there's no reason for it not to be considered that way right now.
Stefan

Mao wrote:

Arrival wrote:

Just make it so the main mode (the one the official mapper made difficulties for) requires 2 nominations and the other ones just 1, but official nominations, not simple check ups.

What if the host maps the same amount of difficulties for every mode present? That would just make it more confusing than it already is.


https://osu.ppy.sh/s/362534 for example
Sotarks
I'm aware that it's a bit too much to have 1 per game mode, but I agree that the main game mode should have 2 nominators, and 1 for the other. This will be more fair.
Crumpey


That problem still exists, yes having 2 for each makes it 'harder' but as it stands it seems like the best solution we have.

you could go as far to say maybe any mode with + 3 difficulties will need 2 noms from that mode and anything under 1.

Hypothetically a set exists with
4 mania
2 standard
and 2 taiko difficulties

only mania would require 2 nominations with both standard and taiko only needing the one nomination (just a theory)
Teky
It's less about what is the best solution and what is the least devestating/demanding solution lol, if we stay as is, people will abuse the hybrid system to avoid getting 2 std bns for their standard set (for example).

The 2 nominators per mode rule fixes that issue, and makes the quality and bn punishment or whatever side of things less confusing, but is very demanding for mappers and might cause hybrid mapsets to die out; making them unrankable will fix all issues but might just harm the game in return in other ways (hybrid mapset plays and such), the proposed solution of 1 per extra mode is an all around 'jack of all trades', it still has possible issues and stuff that'd need sorting out (like what'd be the main mode, for example). Thing is IMO no solution is perfect and we'll have to make something and ultimately deal with another problem stemming out of it later.

I believe the correct course of action is to find something that will have the least issues that can most plausibly be dealt with relatively easily in the future, rather than wasting time finding the 'perfect solution' and later risk seeing it in practice providing unexpected results, we'd better stick to predictable things.

For me, I consider the last solution (2 per main gamemode, 1 per extra gamemode) the most balanced and thus that's what I'd say is the right choice; I find stuff such as defining the main mode to be relatively simple discussion wise, and all other issues seem easy to solve to me; so that's what I'd go with, but whatever ya want.
Stefan

iYiyo wrote:

Now the question is how you define the main mode of an hybrid set. The one which has more difficulties? The one which has the hardest difficulty? A mix of last two?


We could work with these examples:

x Standard diffs, two Taiko diffs (Muzukashii/Oni), two Mania diffs (NM/HD) = 2 Standard BNs, 1 Taiko BN, 1 Mania BN

x Standard diffs, three Taiko diffs (Futsuu/Muzukashii/Oni), four CTB diffs (Cup~Rain) = 2 Standard BNs, 2 Taiko BN, 2 CTB BN

Three Taiko diffs (Futsuu/Muzukashii/Oni), three Mania diffs (NM/HD/MX) = 2 Taiko BN, 2 Mania BNs

Looks complicated but I think it would take away the stupid question what would be considered as main mode. It'd be all these with a complete set that would be rankable when alone as own mapset.

I don't consider the technical aspect how exactly this should work by the forum/system so idk lo
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