Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Development
  4. Community Voice

Poll 12: How should we deal with cheaters?

posted
Total Posts
210

A cheater is found (100% certain). What do we do with them?

Permanent ban (no exceptions)
130
41.67%
Give a second chance (new account)
39
12.50%
Score reset, disable submission, but leave account access
143
45.83%
Total votes: 312
Polling ended
show more
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Wishy22 wrote:

@ziin

It's kind of the same thing, if that guy ever wants to play online again all he has to do is make another account... and even if you can "pursue him" using his IP or anything, you still can't prove it's really him player, and then again if he changes his IP and then starts using another account you can prove nothing.

The main issue are MULTI ACCOUNTS, that problem comes from the fact that accounts are worth pretty much NOTHING. Even if you get yourself banned all you got to do is make another account and that's it, obviously cheaters don't really care about getting banned/losing their scores (since they cheated them lol). I think this would be solved with some cool ladder system/good ranking system where rank actually means something.
Player A's account 1 is banned.
Player A gets new IP.
Player A makes new account 2, never logs onto banned account 1.
No way to match account 2 with account 1.

Player A's account 1 gets suspended.
Player A gets new IP.
Player A makes new account 2, occasionally logs onto suspended account 1 with new IP.
We now have a link between new account 2 and suspended account 1, and can act appropriately. Furthermore, account 2 will likely be SSing insane songs on day 1, which is not humanly possible. Banning new accounts should not be a difficult process, so long as there is an explanation as to why the account was banned (in this case, the player is way too good to be new).

IP matching is used to find multi accounts on another forum I moderate, and is not foolproof (siblings on same IP, ISP re-uses old IP). By using such a system as well as comparing relative skill levels of the two accounts, it should be a simple (though tedious) process to determine multi-accounts.

The other problem is that a lot of the high profile cheaters didn't really cheat their way up to being that good, they did it in order to see if they could get away with it/get banned because they don't like the community anymore.

asdasdasd654456 wrote:

what? no. i want a second chance because i cheated on other accounts and my main account it's completely legit. cheating again is not my target
also, this person's account should just be straight up banned right now, no questions asked.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
Voted option 3 since scores and community are, to me, unrelated.
halo398
halo398
vote 1 cuz people can go to top of leaderboards not making osu a game anymore >:(
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
If nothing else, then a score reset would probably be the safest option. Even better, this should be undoable, in case it turns out that the player wasn't cheating. If a player cheats, then a simple score reset would enable them to stay in touch with the community.
halo398
halo398
well that defeats the point its for cheaters
and hackers can hack u via internet do u want that huh do u want them to steal ur info and all that?
Last edited by Sakura , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
halo398: please use the edit button instead of posting again in a row, specially when you add something just like a minute after
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Option 4: Send ninjas.

Mr Color wrote:

Voted option 3 since scores and community are, to me, unrelated.
Maybe so, but I don't see how anyone can cheat and still want the best for the community.
The only good it might do to let them talk on their existing account is if it stops them from creating multiaccounts and cheating again. It might be worth a try as an experiment to see if this is the case, but I doubt.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
You can cheat once then feel guilty and/or stupid about it and decide to redeem yourself by actively participating in the community, in my opinion. Granted, that's a rare case, but I think people who just want to cheat would leave by their own once they see that their scores have been reseted and that they can't submit new ones anymore.
It would also raise the problem of double accounts, but the other options don't fare better against this issue, so...
I still think it's the best option because we do give kind of a second chance to the cheater (being able to enjoy the chat, forums and whatnot) without being too lenient and actually encourage cheating rather than dissuading it.
Zelmarked
407 posts
Joined September 2011
Zelmarked
When I was younger, hacking an online video game was something that crossed my mind. I never did but I did do exploits that were border line. At this time, I now have ethics that prevent me from ever doing such a thing. My point is this game and young user base has those who haven't nailed down a sense of ethics. And concerning the cheaters, after giving them some time to think about their actions, a second chance would probably be best after the ban really informs them of the harsh consequences of cheating. But, for the osu! community at large, a permanent ban is best. You do work on the site and the game. Taking attention off of these single persons who might not learn from their ban, which as you state is highly the case, would give you more time to serve the community as a whole. Putting the needs of the many over the few, Lesser of two evils, etc.

Perm ban.
Xau_old
Xau_old
I just don't understand why people who cheated on their main account like Lunah can have a new account and others who NEVER cheated on their main account can't play osu anymore. Can someone explain me?
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Giving second chances is reasonable, but banning from score submit and from chat/forums should be kept linked.

Edit: @coco: Multis are meaningless when it comes to that. Lunah was plain given a second chance.
Xau_old
Xau_old
why can't i have one? I already agreed to reset my main account even being legit, thats only for main account cheaters right? I sereasly ask peppy to check my case again..
Sinistro
osu! Alumni
1,412 posts
Joined January 2008
Sinistro
Once again, please do not use this thread to plead individual cases. There are other, known ways to do that.
xRayne
512 posts
Joined November 2011
xRayne
I go with the first option; Once a cheater, always a cheater P: The saying dose not have to go for just relationships >.> lol
Mythras
255 posts
Joined February 2010
Mythras
permaban, unless they only did it like one time (and you know that somehow), and even then only if they seem actually sorry enough. :P
Nadina120
135 posts
Joined March 2010
Nadina120
i got into troubles for supporting players that are accused of cheating .
I am getting my head around the fact that not much can be done.
If some one cheats- they are the ones that are cheating to them selves so over time I am learning to just not care if some one is cheating or not.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe
How about permaban + public announcement/humiliation of said cheater lol, cheater list thread!
Zelmarked
407 posts
Joined September 2011
Zelmarked

YodaSnipe wrote:

How about permaban + public announcement/humiliation of said cheater lol, cheater list thread!
No because the cheaters won't care. Anyone who cheats won't use an ID in which they care to have defamed. Probably a multi.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Score reset, disable submission, but leave account access
and
Give a second chance (new account)
should be put together and be the indicator for a permanent ban if the player do so again.
Xau_old
Xau_old

YodaSnipe wrote:

How about permaban + public announcement/humiliation of said cheater lol, cheater list thread!
that's actually what cheaters want
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
dvorak_old
case 1 & 3:
even if ban is completely automated, e-mail by banned user will let peppy spend time for inspection.

case 2:
worst because it cost more time than other.

So, problem is how to manage e-mail/pm from users who cry liike "I am not cheater, recover my account" or something like that.
One solution is ignore whole pm from banned user.
I don't think we need to care petition from cheater whom peppy identified 100%.

so I support 3 + (irc!) // ignore whole pm/mail about petition for ban.

We need to talk about cheater ~99%(by peppy), but that should be in another thread.
Minty Gum
298 posts
Joined June 2011
Minty Gum
I can imagine an accidental permaban on an innocent player. That's happened to me before on plenty of multiplayer games, especially the ones with huge amounts of players and the security team or whoever doesn't get to my complaint for a year...
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Minty Gum wrote:

I can imagine an accidental permaban on an innocent player. That's happened to me before on plenty of multiplayer games...
peppy knows what he's doing, so an innocent player won't get banned for cheating.
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
I would go with complete score wipe. Also asdf, cheating is cheating no matter which account did it.
Xau_old
Xau_old

GigaClon wrote:

I would go with complete score wipe. Also asdf, cheating is cheating no matter which account did it.
of corse but (again) lunah can blablabla others can too blablabla
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

asdasdasd654456 wrote:

of corse but (again) lunah can blablabla others can too blablabla
of course, but again this is talking about new guidelines.

asdasdasd654456 wrote:

that's actually what cheaters want
What cheaters want is attention. All this "second chance" crap is attention they don't deserve. Ban attention is enough to minimize damage at low time cost. There is no way to deal with cheaters without giving them attention, other than automating the system (which is insecure).

Just change your passwords on your accounts to jibberish that you won't remember, get a new throwaway email, change your IP address and get a new identity. This is impossible to stop. Why are people so attached to an online identity anyway?
SilentKiller
176 posts
Joined December 2010
SilentKiller
How about just not give a shit lol. If they cheat and wanna come back its not hard to make another account. Your never gonna stop cheaters.
Osu Tatakae Ouendan
osu! Alumni
333 posts
Joined December 2010
Osu Tatakae Ouendan

asdasdasd654456 wrote:

why can't i have one? I already agreed to reset my main account even being legit, thats only for main account cheaters right? I sereasly ask peppy to check my case again..
may i say that you're missing the point. it's not the account, it's the person. even if you kept one account legit and didn't cheat you still cheated on another account.

Sakura Hana wrote:

The point is that you're not allowed to cheat on any account.
^

ziin wrote:

that's actually what cheaters want
What cheaters want is attention. All this "second chance" crap is attention they don't deserve. Ban attention is enough to minimize damage at low time cost. There is no way to deal with cheaters without giving them attention, other than automating the system (which is insecure).

Just change your passwords on your accounts to jibberish that you won't remember, get a new throwaway email, change your IP address and get a new identity. This is impossible to stop. Why are people so attached to an online identity anyway?
the online identity part i don't know.
as for cheaters, they want one of two things
1. the easy way to pass something hard, cause they're lazy to get better
2. the easy way to pass something hard, but this time because they wanna show off and or troll those who can't do it
most likely the second choice. i don't see that many cheaters anymore who do the first choice, or it could just be me
As for limiting the attention they get when they get banned or something, that's too hard. One point or the other the truth will slip out.

SilentKiller wrote:

How about just not give a shit lol. If they cheat and wanna come back its not hard to make another account. Your never gonna stop cheaters.
True. we can't stop them. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try though, what, are we just gonna let them go around being unfair to the other players?

peppy wrote:

When I am talking "account access", I mean letting the user login to chat/forums. We still keep access to the account and have all relevant data, so it wouldn't change how easy it is to track people.
Ok. in theory, option 3 works, but again, they'll just multiaccount. as i said earlier, cheaters want attention. And although being able to go get a score using a cheat while in their account, they can't really show it off and get attention, either no one would pay attention to him since his score isn't submitted anyway, or becasue they know he cheated. cheaters might multiaccount again to get around this.
L y Z e
55 posts
Joined July 2011
L y Z e
Permanent Ban ~ ( plus score reset @@ )
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate
depends on the cheating
i think people that use spin macro or have a really low amount of hacked scores should get their accounts reset, but banned if they do it again.
i think people that hack (autoplay, memory, flashlight, etc.) should have reset scores, and unable to submit scores (or permanently banned if they stop signing in).
i know several people that have cheated in the past but stopped doing it too, that's an issue as well...
palion
172 posts
Joined October 2011
palion

XK2238 wrote:

MAC ban is enough I think, people will have to buy a whole new PC to continue cheating, which is very fund-draining, and they won't be brave to cheat anymore. \o/

(Voted for permanent ban)
mac spoofing is beyond easy

a simple google search yields this
Winshley
osu! Alumni
2,384 posts
Joined May 2011
Winshley

palion wrote:

XK2238 wrote:

MAC ban is enough I think, people will have to buy a whole new PC to continue cheating, which is very fund-draining, and they won't be brave to cheat anymore. \o/

(Voted for permanent ban)
mac spoofing is beyond easy
I was about to say this, but I just had to read the whole thread before posting. Good thing I'm not the only one.

Imagine what would happen if the cheater accidentally used your MAC address... :roll:

On-topic: I'm having difficulties on choosing between option 1 and 3. Option 1 may be a bit too harsh, but then again Option 3 can be a bit too forgiving as well. :? (Voted Option 3 anyway)

I would like to see that if the cheater is found, perma-ban it right away. But depending on how they do the appeal (strictly via e-mail), we can then go for Option 3 for a month and keep logging their activity without touching the online scoreboard. They can enter online feature again after a month (or whatever duration as you wish) of restrictions. But if they found to be cheating again anytime (even after they're free from the restrictions), perma-ban without anymore mercy.

This method can be effective, only if we can find a way to prevent multi-accounts users. Unfortunately, I can't see any plausible method for this... :?

(I'm also hoping that peppy can find a way to detect Flashlight cheatings. Perhaps with some unique algorithms applied to the Flashlight mod)
Backstabber
75 posts
Joined March 2011
Backstabber
Your router hides your MAC id. The IP that shows up can also be any one of X computers under that network. In my opinion score reset on strike 1 and perma-ban on strike 2 is the way to go.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
aka. giving everyone the chance to try cheating once? sounds like an easy way for things to get out of control.
Galkan
Global Moderator
2,023 posts
Joined September 2009
Galkan
I think if any bannable offence happened only once in the past, a user should receive fair warning of consequences if they keep such behaviour (+ delete the record of score gained by foul play). If then they decide to continue, permament ban without possibility to appeal (or whatever you choose).

If said user cheated multiple times, instant perm should be applied.
An additional line mentioning this in the main menu could also be added.
Luzcyfer
109 posts
Joined February 2012
Luzcyfer
Get the ip, go to their homes and kill them, after that expose his/her corpse on uppy!..................wait!

Nah!, screw them all; permanent bann, no exceptions.

I was thinking of the second chance but if it happens once, could happen again. So no.

Erase the score sounds nice but not energic enough.

There is a way to get the ip and post it no matter is the actual ip or a spoof?. Like, sending a message.
navy0333
450 posts
Joined October 2011
navy0333
i think osu! should have a antihacking system...... like other online games.....
Aoko
1,053 posts
Joined June 2011
Aoko
Score reset, disable submission, but leave account access.
Also,

Winshley wrote:

(I'm also hoping that peppy can find a way to detect Flashlight cheatings. )
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy

Winshley wrote:

(I'm also hoping that peppy can find a way to detect Flashlight cheatings. Perhaps with some unique algorithms applied to the Flashlight mod)

navy0333 wrote:

i think osu! should have a antihacking system...... like other online games.....
It does. The fact you don't know it's there means it's doing a good job; it should not interfere with normal users at all.
GladiOol
4,475 posts
Joined August 2008
GladiOol
Score reset, depending on the intensity of cheating.

If it's a new account, made just for the heck of cheating, permanently ban it of course.
If it's a player who's been here for quite a while and cheats on 1 or a few maps, score reset him but keep his account.
If he'll cheat on like 10+ maps, then I'd suggest an account ban as well.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
45 / 210