Regarding the star/kudosu system

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2
Topic Starter
Shiirn
As it stands right now, the current system assigns "star priority" to maps based off kudosu the modders receive for modding maps, as given by the mapper. Modders are given incentive to mod older maps because a map with over two weeks since its last post is worth 2 kudosu.

Why this is flawed.
Currently, a modder gets 1 kudosu from modding someone's map. What this means, is that they can do one of two things after successfully modding a map and getting kudosu for it:
A) Spend it on the map they modded.
B) Save it for either their maps or someone else's map.

Why is this bad?

Because it forces the modder to make a choice between themselves or the mapper of the map they modded (we'll call him Bob to shorten this phrase, and we'll call the modder Alice).

Alice can get one kudosu on average for each map she mods. This is a nice basic number, and it makes sense. However, since she only has one, she cannot openly support Bob without sacrificing the kudosu she might want to use for herself. Inversely, she can't "be selfish" and hoard the kudosu for herself and use it on her own map because she'd be dropping out of supporting Bob - meaning he'd have a harder time racking up priority himself!

Of course, this could be solved by everyone deciding to go one way or the other - everyone hoards kudosu and spends it on their own maps, leading to kudosu meaning "the mapper has modded this many maps" which really tells us absolutely nothing about the quality of the map, or everyone is forced to spend it on maps they mod, making it "this map has received this many mods" (this also invalidates the 2 kudosu after 2 weeks - they didn't get two mods worth of kudosu by waiting a few weeks!).

Both of these are sub-optimal, clearly. The first tells us nothing about the map; the second tells us very little about the quality of the map, just the modding amount.

Brief overview of the old system. (just so we remember what we had)
The old system let any old player throw stars at a map to increase its popularity, and kudosu granted that map +2 per 3 kudosu spent universally, with BAT/GMT stars giving +2.

I won't go over the faults of the old system too much since everyone that cares can look it up or figure it out themselves.
It was sub-optimal.


How can this be solved?

We combine the strengths of the two styles and eliminate the weaknesses.


What I propose:

A two-layered system revolving around two factors: Modding, and Popularity.
This will practically throw the old kudosu system out the window.
At best, you could sort maps in the forum by both of these stats.

What a map will have is two statistics: Mod level, and Popularity level. (These will be called "+Mod" and "+Pop" for quicker reading)

Mod Level
+Mod will revolve around modding. Whenever a person (hello, Alice!) mods a map, they will tick a little box somewhere near the post form saying "This is a Map Mod". Only posts that have this box ticked will be eligible for "kudosu". When Bob takes a look over Alice's mod and deems it worthy, he will give her kudosu in the same fashion as we do now - except, when Alice gets a kudosu, Bob also gets one "Mod star", aka our Modding priority (+Mod). What this allows everyone to do is immediately see at a glance how many mods a map has had, especially for MATs and BATs. This will smooth out the process of people mucking through all the posts figuring out how many mods Bob has gotten.

Since this would label individual posts as mods, you would also be able to put a toggle that will show only mod posts in a thread! The inactive-map incentive of 2 kudosu should largely be thrown away - but since we can label posts as mods, we can change it to 2-weeks-since-last-mod, rather than last post! That might work.

Countering the counterarguments inevitably to come:
But Shiirn, this can be abused! No more than the current system. MATs and BATs will have the ability to revoke mods and kudosu given just like we can now.
What will modders do with their Kudosu?! We'll cover that in the popularity section!
I'll add more as they come.


Popularity Level
+Pop will revolve around the popularity of the map. Whenever a person (We'll call him Charlie. He's mostly a player and isn't experienced with mapping, but really likes Bob's map!) posts in a map thread, they can tick a box saying "Give this map a popularity point" or what-have-you. This will immediately give Bob's map a popularity point. This statistic will show modders and the mapper how many people support their map. A map's support and popularity have very little to do with how many mods its received, after all! This lets people who want to support a map but aren't experienced at modding / can't find anything a way to make them feel like they've contributed, even a little bit. It also shows lurking MAT/BATs how much the map has been looked at by people, even if it wasn't a mod!

Here's where Alice's kudosu comes in: Just like the old system, Alice can spend her kudosu to give a map a bit of a boost in popularity! A personal little thought I had was that Alice could give her kudosu to other mappers (Maybe Bob!) at a more efficient rate - for example, it takes her 4 kudosu to get 2 popularity on her own map, but only costs her 3 to give 2 to Bob. This will give modders an incentive to help other maps, and to get their own maps helped by making a big impression on modders.

Counterargument counters:
People use multis or inexperienced friends to farm popularity! There can be two ways to solve this: Multis are a bannable offense anyway, so ban them. And a better way is to require a minimum playcount to be eligible to popularize a map - let's say 1000.
People can farm popularity by telling people to "star their map" just like the old system. That's the entire point of popularity - if you can get someone to "star your map", then you've increased its popularity a bit. Overall, the popularity level is the "less important" statistic since it just gauges the amount of people or amount of effort a mapper has gotten into getting their map known, which is quite important already if you ask me.


Another idea:

Make bubbled maps automatically move to another place - Most likely a subforum in pending. This lets people still look through unbubbled maps easily and efficiently, and allows BATs to look through bubbles more easily as well. In this forum, we can sort by Last Modpost Date, allowing for old bubbles to be sorted easily.

Appended notes:
You can sort maps in pending/WIP by "mods" or "popularity".
A modder might be able to show that they support the map in the same post that they mod it - I'm not 100% sure on this, so give me opinions!

Converting old maps to the new system: transfer current SP into popularity, but allow mappers and modders to retroactively turn their kudosu'd posts into mods.



Thanks for reading!

peppy refused to read this based off of a demanded one-sentence summary, make of that what you will but stay on-topic
Garven
Quick thought on the mod plus end: I wonder if this will push the mindset of always giving kudosu regardless of usefulness/perceived effort to attain the coveted priority.
IceBeam
well,that's quite a good idea,though I liked it partially

what's about Pop and Mod counters - that'd be awesome..popularity is simple (if these points could be given for free,as I understood,because you were talking about players,who don't experienced much in mapping/modding). though again,it's kinda similar to old kudosu system,where people could star any map for free. thus, even despite duplicate accounts it will be something like "the more friends you have - the more Pop you got on your map". and so such an interesting idea won't be enough effective

if I missunderstood something or you have a solve for this - go on

Mod counter is what I've been looking for because I have personal mod policies about how many posts there should be before poking mats/bats to mod,but,if talking seriously,it takes me some minutes to browse a thread and search for mod posts..also,that makes me sort out the mod posts by its quality - if I see that there're enough posts but they all were like "move this 1 grid down and nc here" - I just won't mod it and ask mapper to get some more..also,I always ask mapper to get mods for taiko diffs (if there're some in the mapset). so anyway,I'd have to check 'em all to see if there were taiko-specific mod posts. and of course,by looking at mod posts you can deny unfair kds and moreover,look over potential MAT members

and all in all,Mod counter is most likely useful for mats/bats only - regular modders choose the maps by their music preferences or requests
so again I have doubts that this idea will be useful enough to change the system that much

all in all,your ideas are wise and interesting,but so far I can't really see a strong need in upgrading a system.maybe because I like our current one - "promote your maps (a.k.a. shoot stars) by helping others (a.k.a. mod maps)". the only weak point I see - is that players,who don't tend to mod can't support the maps they like..but previously there was an idea about "Like" feature - well,something like your Pop counter

what's about supporting other maps when you can't choose where to spend your kds - what's bad? ranking a map should be a privelege,and this requires to help someone else to get a success in it..probably it's a bit harsh to beginners (though we can always help them,right?) or lazy dudes,but at least that's fair

and another one comment:

Shiirn wrote:

Make bubbled maps automatically move to another place - Most likely a subforum in pending. This lets people still look through unbubbled maps easily and efficiently, and allows BATs to look through bubbles more easily as well. In this forum, we can sort by Last Modpost Date, allowing for old bubbles to be sorted easily.
uh? isn't it used already? o3o
I mean,bubbles are sorted in the first pages

what's about old bubbles - well,if our "Old bubbles thread" isn't effective much as it requires a lot of work to update it
why not to let mappers add their bubbled maps in some list..or at least ask them to post in some thread when they get a bubble - and mats/bats will add them to op,dunno
wmfchris
  1. In practice, popularity of songs in different genre differs significantly, enlarging the problem that come rare choices of song recieves less caring (2kd-system may cover this one). If this is simply a numerical requirement, mappers will just find everyone and tell them "hey give me a pop-level (pop-level sounds lol), just like people asking others "hey star my map" back to the days that the first star is free. Then popularity level is even easier to be abused comparing with current system.
  2. Mod-level's problem: In practice some modder tends to star the map after certain rechecks --- starring the map shound't be linked with (the a certain modder's) first mod.


Maybe you can try to mention SP system (do with maps) instead of "throwing kd system away" (kd sth deal with mod) that's bit misleading o3o

For me it's like # of mods = count by myself reading others' comments or problems; popularity = number of posts/views is pretty good estimating already, and imo popularity of a mapset is largely depending on the song while the quality of map is only has a boosting effect in general, which doesn't really help much about map's quality.

Icy speaks most of my idea already, and I agree that
I can't really see a strong need in upgrading a system.
and maybe I don't think it's not really "unfair" because the costly and limited stars pushes us to save for better maps that deserve stars while sacrificing the rest of the map.
Topic Starter
Shiirn

Garven wrote:

Quick thought on the mod plus end: I wonder if this will push the mindset of always giving kudosu regardless of usefulness/perceived effort to attain the coveted priority.
I don't see why it would; any MAT or BAT would be able to tell at a glance whether the post was actually worthy in their eyes or not.
ztrot
does it really solve anything? I mean you will still need to get X amount of mod stars before your map can be looked at
in terms of ranking all it does is give the public the ability to star again.
Ephemeral
dump this in feature requests and let everybody contribute - why are you posting it just here?
Topic Starter
Shiirn
ok
-Athena-
The only thing I don't really understand is what "Alice" can do with her kudosu, is kudosu only to be used for poularity? and if so is kudosu worth more popularity points?

Edit: forgot to throw in my personal opinion on this, I'll be very happy if this is implemented because at least it gives people like me (who dont mod or map, yeah i understand im trash, learning to map a little already though) a say in mapping. Now if only feature requests had a system something like this only with certain criteria, right now I can't support any features D: (shot
Mercurial

Shiirn wrote:

Counterargument counters:
People use multis or inexperienced friends to farm popularity! There can be two ways to solve this: Multis are a bannable offense anyway, so ban them. And a better way is to require a minimum playcount to be eligible to popularize a map - let's say 1000.
I haven't 1000 of playcount... but I have some kudosus and an old map what I want to rank it.

This could be a way to vote too.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
any mode


and/or 1000 playcount is very worth spending a few hours to get if you want to be able to star

Athena: it goes over that. a post = 1, a kudosu = 2 or 3. pretty much yes, popularity is what we right now refer to as "star priority" but its problem is that it doesn't tell us how GOOD the map is via mods or otherwise.
Gabi
So i'm a little tired right now (might have misunderstood your post completely), but what exactly will this achieve?

To me it feels like it will be like the current system with a few twists, but in the end the same.

Personally to me the current star system is fair, the only reason it's bad is because no one actually follows it, which in the end makes it completely useless.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
probably best to read it while entirely mentally clear. But to answer the question,
A) It will let people tell at a glance how many mods it has gotten (very important to MAT/BAT)
B) Allow people without modding experience to still show their support for a map,
C) allow popular maps with fewer mods to stand out, and vice versa, allow highly-modded but unpopular maps stand out as well,
D) make people feel like their kudosu means more - they can have their opinion mean much more to a map's popularity if they're an active modder, or horde kudosu anyway.
i think those are the 4 main ones
bomber34
So basicly the way to get Kudosu! stays the same and they are more worthy than now.

I can't find anything bad right nowexcept your counter counterrargument with the +pop thing, because if you have many good friends you can just tell them to post in your thread. Most of my friends aren't inexperienced and they still would post but the other argument answered this..

I can't really decide right now if this is really better or not, but for now I would support it.
Mercurial
I support the "A" point.
YodaSnipe
this is a cool idea. I am not a mapper nor an avid modder, so having something for "players" to contribute to the mapping system would be kinda cool ^^

good idea Shiirn~
-Athena-
I can't believe I didn't notice this earlier, was it in BAT/MAT discussions?
I need to widen my field of stalking <3
Topic Starter
Shiirn
it was in a private forum, hence ephemeral telling me to move it to the public eye
Kurokami
I think this is a good idea. Maybe if we just put together them it will be better. I have some fav on my map, because they are unable to add star, (I never asked them to do this). This ways the maps will be ranked easily and more good maps will become bubbled and later ranked.
Koro McAlpine
Someone made a great point about kudosus...

+Support

Good luck on this.
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