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Should you kill the fat man? Thought experiment

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Topic Starter
TeeArctic1
Okay, so I really enjoy discussing ethics and morals, and I found this link, so post your results and thoughts underneath.

http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/fatman/

I myself is 100% consistent
Comfy Slippers
Can you at least give some insight to your reasoning? Claiming that you enjoy discussing ethics, then proceeding to give a vague answer that doesn't lead up to anything is nonsensical. You're willingly pushing for a thread full of result spam.

The entire test is just a huge contradiction and a slap in the face for anyone who isn't utilitarian. This train dilemma is locking you to a set amount of choices. Though it is understandable, given the unavoidable situation. Then again, they fail to realise that inaction is not action when determining moral culpability, and this is where this one fails the most. And much like this thread, the topics covered here are pretty inexplicit (slight issue, but an issue nonetheless). Also, it largely misses any nuance in thought. Sure torture is immoral, but at the same - letting millions of people die is probably more wrong. Welcоme to the real world of gray areas where nо one really abides by utilitarian lоgic, nоr strict moralism. My thought just dоesn't process fit into their contrived axioms.
Topic Starter
TeeArctic1

Comfy Slippers wrote:

Can you at least give some insight to your reasoning? Claiming that you enjoy discussing ethics, then proceeding to give a vague answer that doesn't lead up to anything is nonsensical. You're willingly pushing for a thread full of result spam.

The entire test is just a huge contradiction and a slap in the face for anyone who isn't utilitarian. This train dilemma is locking you to a set amount of choices. Though it is understandable, given the unavoidable situation. Then again, they fail to realise that inaction is not action when determining moral culpability, and this is where this one fails the most. And much like this thread, the topics covered here are pretty inexplicit (slight issue, but an issue nonetheless). Also, it largely misses any nuance in thought. Sure torture is immoral, but at the same - letting millions of people die is probably more wrong. Welcоme to the real world of gray areas where nо one really abides by utilitarian lоgic, nоr strict moralism. My thought just dоesn't process fit into their contrived axioms.


I myself strive to be an utilitarian whenever possible because I enjoy making people happy and it gives me a positive feedback.
That being said, I will say that the test in and of itself is very basic and simplifies a lot of situations by amongst other things, locking you to a set amount of choices. I hope that the thread can allow discussion of the questions and the logic behind one's own answer, and if you had another answer than those given and why.

Right and wrong are also relative concepts to one's own morality, which is why the test states that there are no right or wrong answers. I would disagree that it's a slap in the face for anyone who isn't utilitarian, rather, I would argue that it is a valid example of how hard of an ideology it is to uphold in the real world, and how you often would have to sacrifice commonly good morals like "torture is wrong" to adhere to utilitarism. It is the start of a conversation, hence why it was left intentionally vague at the start as I don't want to people to have any preconceived and influenced thoughts going into the test.

The train dilemma has numerous variations by now and is an exploration of how we let different sets of data affect our decisions. Because the test doesn't provide much background information as to who the people on the track are or why they're tied there, I tried maximising happiness in all situations where I could.
However, were I presented with motivations, relation etc, my decision would most likely differ.
Inaction is an intriguing idea, because the reasoning behind it could very vastly from person to person, and if you wanted to choose that in the scenarios, I would very much want to know why. I like learning.
Comfy Slippers

TeeArctic1 wrote:

I myself strive to be an utilitarian whenever possible because I enjoy making people happy and it gives me a positive feedback.
That being said, I will say that the test in and of itself is very basic and simplifies a lot of situations by amongst other things, locking you to a set amount of choices. I hope that the thread can allow discussion of the questions and the logic behind one's own answer, and if you had another answer than those given and why.
Context and the general amount of information are essential in cases like these. Simplifications is the one thing you don't need.

TeeArctic1 wrote:

Right and wrong are also relative concepts to one's own morality, which is why the test states that there are no right or wrong answers.
The test itself bends out of traditional uses of recognizing ones moral compass and flat out forces you into an unfavorable situation where you're forced to do 'bad things'.

TeeArctic1 wrote:

I would disagree that it's a slap in the face for anyone who isn't utilitarian
As a pragmatist, I'm forced into certain scenarios with stipulated conditions that favor those with utilitarian arguments. How is that not a slap in the face? It being shorter than it needs to be isn't really helpful.

TeeArctic1 wrote:

The train dilemma has numerous variations
Like for example? Relevant conditions don't change the outcome and are not listed. Everything we need to know can be found in the question. The only assumption I can make that can change the events and prevent casualties is an make-believe thought that the train can magically stop time, fly up or do anything of that nature in order to save lives. I guess you could further analyze this and make a logical argument how this is almost improbable as the 'flying train is'. Why do we randomly have these people, and why do we conveniently have another person on another track? Going further down the rabbit hole, we run into more problems with the issue at hand. But the core premise still remains, so I don't wanna ponder too much over it as it would become irrelevant.

TeeArctic1 wrote:

Inaction is an intriguing idea, because the reasoning behind it could very vastly from person to person
we need to ask you four preliminary questions so we get a sense of the way that you think about morality.
Moral culpability becomes non-existant here. Your hands are tied, you will have casualties that are (in one way or another) immoral. There's very little you could as far as moral justification goes. But this test neglects that and dares to call anyone 'inconsistent', but when in reality the whole premise of this test has 'inconsistencies' written all over it. I haven't finished it myself, but I got clear vibes of them telling me that 'utilitarianism is superior to anything and everything', which is not true, not in the slightest. So in the end, it becomes a one way road. There's very little to gain from completing it.
B1rd
Why did you spend all that time writing paragraphs when you haven't even completed a 2-minute test? I doesn't say utilitarianism is superior to anything, it makes no value judgement of the sort. Neither does it equate action to inaction. I simply tells you how consistent you are with your stated moral principles. You aren't interpreting the test correctly.

Personally, I think pure utilitarianism is quite monstrous. Not least of which because what is defined as "happiness" is arbitrary and it can lead to some great injustices "for the greater good". Personally, I don't subscribe to any moral system, and I don't even purport to try to act for "good". I think I am likely to follow whatever convictions that can give me a sense of meaning. Take in the VN Saya No Ua for instance: if it happened in real life, I wouldn't say for sure that I wouldn't act for the destruction of humanity if I happened to emphasise with the heroine.

Incidentally, I have a collection of essays by John Stuart Mill besides me which I was planning to read shortly, one of them is on utilitarianism.
Pachiru
wait no don't kill me
Comfy Slippers

B1rd wrote:

Why did you spend all that time writing paragraphs when you haven't even completed a 2-minute test? I doesn't say utilitarianism is superior to anything, it makes no value judgement of the sort. Neither does it equate action to inaction. I simply tells you how consistent you are with your stated moral principles. You aren't interpreting the test correctly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning
B1rd
Quoting Wikipedia articles isn't an argument, and doesn't change that you completely mischaracterised the test.
Comfy Slippers
Yea, keep telling yourself that.
B1rd
riggered.
B1rd
Triggered.

Strange how you can never seem to sustain a conversation.
Green Platinum

B1rd wrote:

Strange how you can never seem to sustain a conversation.
Or could easily be Work/Sleep some people have lives outside of this website.
B1rd
I wasn't referring to his lack of replies, but rather a tendency to reply defensively to points that I make rather than engaging them
Comfy Slippers

B1rd wrote:

Triggered.

Strange how you can never seem to sustain a conversation.
This is the 3rd time that you reply to me with nonsensical and flawed arguments with a tone of passive-aggressiveness. I'm not deliberately throwing shade or some shit, I honestly do think it's this way (sometime). There is nothing to gain from keeping this up.

The test itself (heavily) revolves around the infamous trolley problem that often bares fruit to utilitarianism vs deontology debates and in some extreme scenarios it turns into consequentialism vs kantianism (somewhat broader). Crux of the matter is that the test doesn't want to have ANY of it (which I further elaborate in one of my previous posts) and straight out neglects other feasible options and schools of thought all while redpilling you on utilitarianism. And that's not even where I found it to be bad. I have implicitly stated that it's an act of hypocrisy due to the whole 'inconsistencies' fiasco.

Christopher Bauman has provided us with a solid criticism on this. And while I can't fully agree with him, I'd suggest doing some research as it can be beneficial (and for some - an eye opener). Bidding godspeed.
DaddyCoolVipper
100% consistent here, personally
LittlePogi
Answer: no
(I'm a nice person. I wouldn't kill anyone).
B1rd
Morality is a spook.
DaddyCoolVipper

B1rd wrote:

Morality is a spook.


Quibbly
First time Ive seen people getting mad at eachother over an argument... I spend too much time in ot. Everyone is basically high af when they comment
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