oh ziin I didn't realize you were one of those "If it's ranked it makes sense/is right" /lost respect
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[Rule] Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks
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Hold on, was the entire point of the thread to talk about circles under sliderends, or is it actually to discuss things such as this? 
That sort of thing's a bitch to read, especially if a lot of an approach circle becomes obscured, which kind of contravenes the argument of YOU MUST READ EVERYTHING BY THE APPROACH CIRCLES. It'd be even worse with opaque sliders.
That sort of thing's a bitch to read, especially if a lot of an approach circle becomes obscured, which kind of contravenes the argument of YOU MUST READ EVERYTHING BY THE APPROACH CIRCLES. It'd be even worse with opaque sliders.
Well while the sightreading is subjective (but there is a limit to it ofc), cases like this would be handled on a case per case basis. If it's really stupid and awkward it would probably be requested to be changed, but a circle on its own under a slider track is not really a problem for higher diffs. Atleast that's the way I see it. Currently circles under slider starts are allowed and they are little to no different than circles under slider tracks (im reapeating myself again ;x;), besides, if they are slightly misaligned they are actually visible.
Clusterfucks are handled differently anyway.
Clusterfucks are handled differently anyway.
I just think that, even with a sliver of a hit circle visible, overlaps like that are overly harsh. I'm pretty capable of playing bullshitty maps, but I think it's fair to say that the average player shouldn't be expected to look for circles under sliders when a pattern has moved away from the slider, especially if a hitburst covers some of the approach circle.
I always think if a map that I can pass and get B, then at least 200 players can easily FC it(even in the first try).
Never overestimate your playing skills, since you are a mapper you will lost the time to practice it. Those patterns you think impossible are actually playable, including the situation that a circle under a slidertrack.
In my opinion we'd to conform to the developing trend but not the stubborn thoughts in our mind.
Never overestimate your playing skills, since you are a mapper you will lost the time to practice it. Those patterns you think impossible are actually playable, including the situation that a circle under a slidertrack.
In my opinion we'd to conform to the developing trend but not the stubborn thoughts in our mind.
In fact, like this is better.
Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.
Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
This sounds much better
Agreed with those.
1st) I would agree with those as Recommendation, you're pratically using only Guidelines(all guideline in general) that are broken on 99%, of cases without serious problems.mm201 wrote:
Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.
Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
2nd) Nobody noticed the 1st being included in the 2nd guideline
Stacking under sliderends=stacking under objects.
Plus it isn't something to be completely prohibited.
Add Recommendations, the add something like that (still need grammar corrections)
Avoid covering objects with other objects in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
Most people consider stacking to be different from overlap.
If something is true for 99% of maps, it's fine to be a guideline.
If something is true for 99% of maps, it's fine to be a guideline.
I don't think a map should have fully hidden notes under slidertracks in most cases for normal and below. I say this for three reasons.
1. It can be considered hidden and thus unrankable.
2. It can be hard to read ahead of time. Patterns should be identifiable on a Normal setting, and always on an easy setting. Only certain approaches to flow and note placement would allow proper readability.
3. I find most cases of overlap as ugly. People shouldn't have to deal with approach circle spam when moving along the slider track.
We shouldn't give mappers full right to make whatever confusing pattern overlap in their simpler difficulties. It is often those difficulties that are most likely to have ugly overlap. By having this rule in place we can have something to back our advice when people try to map their way out of a corner by overlapping notes in a strange and unplayable way. Overlaps should be the exception and not the standard IMO.
1. It can be considered hidden and thus unrankable.
2. It can be hard to read ahead of time. Patterns should be identifiable on a Normal setting, and always on an easy setting. Only certain approaches to flow and note placement would allow proper readability.
3. I find most cases of overlap as ugly. People shouldn't have to deal with approach circle spam when moving along the slider track.
We shouldn't give mappers full right to make whatever confusing pattern overlap in their simpler difficulties. It is often those difficulties that are most likely to have ugly overlap. By having this rule in place we can have something to back our advice when people try to map their way out of a corner by overlapping notes in a strange and unplayable way. Overlaps should be the exception and not the standard IMO.
Topic Starter
I disagree strongly. Hidden is a ranked difficulty.TheVileOne wrote:
1. It can be considered hidden and thus unrankable.
This is the sole reason for the rule/guideline.TheVileOne wrote:
2. It can be hard to read ahead of time.
Those amendments sound great as guidelines. It might be worth adding something about hiding circles under short sliders in particular, because that's when hitbursts obscure approach circles even further. In particular, high approach rates make approach circles smaller, which means that they're less likely to be exposed for long.
Also, while it is definitely worth trying to cast one's mind beyond their own playing ability, mappers should not conform to trends willy nilly. This is how silly things become commonplace. Besides, a good mapper will be able to use their own tricks, before eventually relying less on what they see in other maps. Either way, it's reasonable to suggest that mappers map what they can play (or, if nothing else, what they can read easily). This way, the the mapper would be much more likely to make a coherent map, especially because it'd be relatively simple and easy to read.
Also, while it is definitely worth trying to cast one's mind beyond their own playing ability, mappers should not conform to trends willy nilly. This is how silly things become commonplace. Besides, a good mapper will be able to use their own tricks, before eventually relying less on what they see in other maps. Either way, it's reasonable to suggest that mappers map what they can play (or, if nothing else, what they can read easily). This way, the the mapper would be much more likely to make a coherent map, especially because it'd be relatively simple and easy to read.
so, we discuss on deleting one unusefull rule and we get 2 unuseful guidelines...
funny
funny
...It's demoting one unenforceable rule to guidelines? I see nothing wrong with it. Hiding circles under the middle of slider tracks is pretty silly in itself and should be discouraged. I shouldn't need to explain why.
Topic Starter
It has already been discussed to death in the thread. Haku has made the argument that it's not hard to do, and has proof from newbies who also do not think it's hard to do. No amount of logical discussion is going to change anyone's mind in this thread.D33d wrote:
Hiding circles under the middle of slider tracks is pretty silly in itself and should be discouraged. I shouldn't need to explain why.
Everyone agrees that this is a bad rule, however, and should at least be replaced either with one guideline or with the 2 guidelines mm201 suggested.
I guess I'm not part of everyone. We should not make a defense for unappealing sliders to come into play.
Why?
There is hardly a need for these kind of patterns outside of an insane. If you do so then the AR of the pattern will spam the approach circle over the slider track. Why should we allow this?
Why?
There is hardly a need for these kind of patterns outside of an insane. If you do so then the AR of the pattern will spam the approach circle over the slider track. Why should we allow this?
Topic Starter
Because it's fun to play.TheVileOne wrote:
If you do so then the AR of the pattern will spam the approach circle over the slider track. Why should we allow this?
If Haku has proof of newbies that don't think it's hard to do i have proof of newbies that think it's hard to do, by watching them play it myself when they were playing this game for the first time when i showed it to them (some IRL friends).ziin wrote:
Haku has made the argument that it's not hard to do, and has proof from newbies who also do not think it's hard to do.
I think that hitcircle under the body of the slider is ugly and nasty but circles under the slider end is similar to regular stacking and is perfectly fine.
I made non-payers read many rules, and they think they're nosense
of course non-players think they are non-sense because they have never played the game. Besides you are getting off point, this thread is to discuss this particular rule and not all rules
Any objections to amending the rules to:
mm201 wrote:
Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.
Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
I dont have any objections with that.
That should be good enough to prevent horrible overlaps, with nothing left to the imagination. Please do it.
But if we do that, people will take the guideline as not absolute and thus automatically deny any attempt at bringing up the approach circle issue. At least we have the authority to say it's not allowed with the curent ruleset. If we don't the supporters are going to abuse it and bring up reasons why they can abuse it. Because even one case of approach circle spam is uncalled for in a ranked beatmap and one example isn't considered overdoing it.
I'd make it a heavily enforced guideline, which can only be broken if there is absolutely nowhere else that a circle could go. Given that there's probably always anywhere else to place an object than under a slider track, this should be very easy to enforce.
Topic Starter
Guidelines shouldn't be broken under normal circumstances. You seem to think that guidelines are just throwaway rules that don't affect anyone because they don't matter.
arleady rejected.
This shall go into Recommendation if you want. Not Guidelines
This shall go into Recommendation if you want. Not Guidelines
You never gave any rationale.
Mappers seem to use guidelines as an excuse to weasel out of changing something, before a benevolent BAT lets the mapper keep that something by ranking the map. Sometimes, even MATs or BATs might make unreasonable suggestions, but if it's an issue that is inexcusable or is disagreed with by several people, then there should be a stricter enforcement of the guidelines.ziin wrote:
Guidelines shouldn't be broken under normal circumstances. You seem to think that guidelines are just throwaway rules that don't affect anyone because they don't matter.
Why can't we just adjust the rule to let Hard's do it. I don't think hidden approach circles have any place in Easy/Normal modes. Hards/Insanes could be allowed within reason.
If we allow this to be added in Normals or lower, then it will just further downgrade our standards of what's acceptable. The beatmapper doesn't need to have hard to read transitions in their normal difficulties.
My two cents is that the rule should stay, but the part applying to partially obscure hitcircles should go, because it's vague. We do not have a reference point on what's partially hidden. I think that it should be clarified that a hitcircle that is 80 percent or more hidden under the slider track is unrankable.
If we allow this to be added in Normals or lower, then it will just further downgrade our standards of what's acceptable. The beatmapper doesn't need to have hard to read transitions in their normal difficulties.
My two cents is that the rule should stay, but the part applying to partially obscure hitcircles should go, because it's vague. We do not have a reference point on what's partially hidden. I think that it should be clarified that a hitcircle that is 80 percent or more hidden under the slider track is unrankable.
Topic Starter
TheVileOne wrote:
this needs to be a rule
D33d wrote:
this needs to be a rule
And this is why we can't have nice things. Guideline is middle ground. Deal with it. Or vote that song 1 and move along. It's only a game, folks.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
this shouldn't even be restricted in the slightest
for Guidelines and Rules it should work too right?
It's only a game, folks.being a game do mean rules and guideline are really stupid like this.
You never gave any rationale.Read my older post. It's starting to get me bored saying the same thing over and over.
You mean this?HakuNoKaemi wrote:
1st) I would agree with those as Recommendation, you're pratically using only Guidelines(all guideline in general) that are broken on 99%, of cases without serious problems.
2nd) Nobody noticed the 1st being included in the 2nd guideline
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
Stacking under sliderends=stacking under objects.1st) I would agree with those as Recommendation, you're pratically using only Guidelines(all guideline in general) that are broken on 99%, of cases without serious problems.mm201 wrote:
Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.
Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
2nd) Nobody noticed the 1st being included in the 2nd guideline
Plus it isn't something to be completely prohibited.
Add Recommendations, the add something like that (still need grammar corrections)
Avoid covering objects with other objects in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
Topic Starter
Guideline 1 covers Normal and Easy. Can be a guideline, easily.
Guideline 2 covers all difficulties. Too vague to be a guideline, too easily broken.
Guideline 2 covers all difficulties. Too vague to be a guideline, too easily broken.
Overlapping isn't vague at all. I could very easily write an aimod module that spots overlaps and categorizes them based on how severe they are.
#2 is also a catch-all for existing rules including hitburst coverage and unseeable slider tracks--things which there are currently RULES against. Downgrading a RULE to a RECOMMENDATION is just excessive.
#2 is also a catch-all for existing rules including hitburst coverage and unseeable slider tracks--things which there are currently RULES against. Downgrading a RULE to a RECOMMENDATION is just excessive.
downgrading a non-wanted heavy rule for most difficulties to a light recommendation for easier diffs is.