Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

[Rule] Slider anchors/nodes...manipulate slider speeds

posted
Total Posts
108
show more
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

common sense in a rhythmn game IS guessing.

Guessing how the mapper interpreted the map while playing.

Seeing how some rule even defeats the purpose of calling a game "rhythmn game", I can maybe stop posting in those discussion ( but I can't do like other that abandoned teaching turtles to run like jaguars )
Theory: Readability
You are entitled to your opinion disagreeing with readability, but don't call people idiots for wanting the game to be readable.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
well, you "saintly" know the rhythmn of a map without guessing it.
The knownledge of the rhythmn of a map should descend from the sky, and the rhythmn in maps (all) should be the same. If common sense isn't guessing.
You unknowingly say "readable or not" without playing? you know the rhythmn of a map without playing? Guess is a NO.
So you really try to guess the rhythmn of a map while playing
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Did you even read the thread? It clearly shows how most gameplay elements are readable with no guesswork.
I guess it's no use arguing with a brick wall.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
what you call guesswork is maybe heavy though.
So:
You can read a map without guessing how the element will be used
(guessing is a synonim of understanding, in osu! case, reading should mean understand)
You can understand a map without understanding ...
(uh? let's be more obvious, by using books)
You can read a book without understanding it.

Obvious contraddiction is obvious

going offtopic, and we're all agreeing this rule can be deleted as it's arleady covered by another rule
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Guessing isn't a synonim of understanding, guessing means that you have no idea what you need to do and you need to try a random guess and see if you hit or miss.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
guess is a instinctive type of understading, basically.
while guessing, you suppose something using your imagination
while understanding, you realize something using your intellect

I think Guess is more adapted to osu! even more now

Off topic, close the discussion as a general consense about "deleting as it's arleady contained in another rule" has been reached
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

I think Guess is more adapted to osu! even more now
This is why current standards suck. Maps are making less and less sense and it needs to stop. Mods need to be less about what is "rankable" and more about what is as far from ambiguous as possible, within reason.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Guess isn't "seeing whats rankable" as far I know...

Seeing whats rankable and whatsnot is NOT guessing the rhythmn and the placement are linked
the current standard is the current draft of the new rules, as it's being applied

but yeah, it's goin' offtopic
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

D33d wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

I think Guess is more adapted to osu! even more now
This is why current standards suck. Maps are making less and less sense and it needs to stop. Mods need to be less about what is "rankable" and more about what is as far from ambiguous as possible, within reason.
No, maps are getting better. Always have, ever since osu! started. Stop bitching. If you don't like some maps, then fucking live with it and it's your problem.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Natteke wrote:

D33d wrote:

This is why current standards suck. Maps are making less and less sense and it needs to stop. Mods need to be less about what is "rankable" and more about what is as far from ambiguous as possible, within reason.
No, maps are getting better. Always have, ever since osu! started. Stop bitching. If you don't like some maps, then fucking live with it and it's your problem.
I hold my hands up--I made a rather heated and clunky blanket statement. However, bad habits have crept into osu! and they're more common than they should be. It's pretty bad, yo. Lots of maps do feel like guesswork, simply because they're so inconsistent.

Aaaah also, if everybody "fucking lived with it," then I'm pretty sure that standards really would go out of the window. It's more than "some maps" which annoy those who matter, so it's clearly a problem. Please don't be so aggressive.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
guesswork DON'T means inconsistence. If a map need GUESSWORK it's consistent.
It's when a map don't need guesswork, but only "to read the places where circles appears" that it is inconsistent.
Old map had bad graphics, and most had bad consistency. But some map were fun to play, because the beatmap was really done to be played with some guesswork.
Now some rules even take off some good things (only some) but yet the only a small part of them need to be better.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

guesswork DON'T means inconsistence. If a map need GUESSWORK it's consistent.
It's when a map don't need guesswork, but only "to read the places where circles appears" that it is inconsistent.
Wait, what?
Could you please elaborate on this, because I don't get it...
If it's consistent, it means patterns, rhythms etc follow a larger pattern and thus can be sightread without guessing even if the isolated pattern would be considered borderline unreadable. If it's inconsistent you may need to guess because there's no clue how the map will behave. Yet you are claiming the complete opposite.
Also, I don't think you get that consistency does not mean the map must be repetitive - It just needs to follow a discernible train of thought. If it's seriously inconsistent, in most cases that means the map makes little to no sense.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
a map which can't be played by just guessing the rhythmn ( or by reflexes, for the peoples with ever-fast reflexes or ultrapro peoples ) and the placement, it's a map that isn't consistent and isn't readable while playing. You usually guess the easiest path while playing sliders, as example, or even think guess the time when you should click by listening to music and seeing the approach on map and guessing ithe distance.
A Guessable map is consistent because you can "imagine" where circle will appear, when to click and so, a map that is impossible to guess, mean that you can't imagine where to click or even when to click
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
I think the word you are looking for is "intuitive". If a map is intuitive, it's more than likely readable.
"Guesswork" implies randomness, which is not readable
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
HakuNoKaemi please look up what "Guessing" or "Guesswork" means before posting again in here because your posts make no sense lately
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
No, he has a point. Bandying around words such as "guesswork" implies that there's not enough in the map's presentation to make it playable. Good maps are intuitive, which don't make the player guess what should happen next. Things such as barely readable sliders and dodgy jumps often lean more towards guessing. If experienced players can read maps which have lots of varying mid-phrase jumps and ambiguous sliders, then a map's right for that group. However, what's readable for them might not be as readable to others. The main thing with making a map immediately intuitive is that there's little guesswork needed.

Of course, a map can have some funky elements to make the player think a bit, as long as they're consistent and the map's lenient enough to let the player get used to them. That turns "guesswork" into "intuitive," especially when something's used to imply a change in style.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
I agree with what you said, D33d, but Haku's post still makes no sense since he claims that maps are readable/consistent if guesswork is required. I assume he just doesn't understand the full meaning of the word but that changes nothing about the fact that it makes no sense.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
If you can't guess what's next, a maps isn't playable. If you can, a map is playable.To Guess means to Assume something by knowing little infos about it.
Guesswork is basically a work of guess ( a work assumed with little infos), and it's a simple synonymous of guess.
You are using the wrong word, as Guess isn't something random, if something is so easy to be assumed with little to no infos, so if while playing you can't guess (aka understand easily) what's next, a map won't be intuitive.
Search a word for "impossible to understand" and it will have the same meaning as random/not intuitive.
Something incomprehensible, abstruse isn't consistent. But something guessable is.
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Off-topic for Haku
Hope that helps:
http://www.wordreference.com/enit/guess
http://translate.google.com/#en|it|Guessing

As long as there's only 1 possible path to the slider and it can be seen before you need to hit it then the slider is fine, that way you don't need to wild guess and be surprised with a miss if you guess incorrectly.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
An overwhelming majority of maps on the system are readable, just so you know.
There's only a very small group of elements which aren't readable, which I listed in the other topic.
Even with all the talk of mapping going to heck, only a small number of maps use these unreadable things anyway.
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
All this talk is slighly off topic topic, What we need to decide is what the wording of Rules/Guidelines reguarding Sliders
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Could this work as a guideline? I don't know how the wording should be changed, but it'd be worth mentioning that long, clear crumpled sliders often work well and shouldn't be discouraged. This has more to do with sliders which barely do anything or are otherwise flow-killing and/or confusing.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
for Sakura, Guess is a synonymous of Understanding in English too(assume meaning), I've done my searches before and after.

Anyway, Deleting it seems better. Guideline discourage doing certain things, and you don't want to discourage it actually. Plus the extreme case is already covered by the other rule
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 3 times in total.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Guideline means that the suggestion is there, which it should be, because this is specific. Clarifying the difference between an unreadable scrunched slider and a slider with obvious motion should be good enough for the guideline.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

D33d wrote:

Guideline means that the suggestion is there, which it should be, because this is specific. Clarifying the difference between an unreadable scrunched slider and a slider with obvious motion should be good enough for the guideline.
"Unreadable Scrunched Slider". The only unreadable ones are scrunched sliders that don't have a "tail" on it.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Guess is a synonimous of Understanding in English too
No it isn't. ._______.

To guess is to come up with an idea without using any logic.
To understand is to figure out the logic behind something.
Please brush up on your English skills before arguing with people here.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Haku is talking about an educated guess vs random guess. As much as I love arguing semantics of words, we shouldn't be doing that here, it's pointless.

Haku, can you turn on your browser's spellchecker to be for English?
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Pointless talking is pointless, as I did add a link to the post but, because of the connection, the post didn't upgrade.
Guess meaning is "take for granted", and something is to be taken for granted to be readable, don't you agree?

I don't actually use any spellchecker as I usually change the language I'm using too many times and some time a spellchecker don't find some errors (like writing "though" and "through")

SPOILER
for a research, something guessable is actually intuitive. I did found randomly (while searching for the meaning of "guess") a scientific research saying that guess and intuition result are basically the same all times.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Yes, but when I talk about guessing, I don't mean an educated guess. It's not arguing semantics for the sake of it--I just detest things which actually do have to be guessed blindly. The funky sliders that were discussed aren't as bad as that, but they're still silly and it's why I think that changing this rule to a more specific guideline could work well.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Isn't choosing the semantic of a word based on the context?

Anyway: The bad thing in rules and guidelines is that if you put limits or discourage something, people will try to use the borderline case every time.
Deleting it seems a better choose, you won't discourage neither encourage it and people will use it when they feel it's good because they don't know it that much and they will choose that shapes only if it they think play good. If you instead make people know when they should use it, they will use it, saying it's not a rule and the other rule don't cover this as it's a separated guideline, even if it doesn't have sense.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I dont know about you guys, but for me it looks like both rules are attacking different scenarios
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Manipulating slider speeds to the point it's totally cramped means the path won't be readable. I never saw, for example, a slider that's so much slowed using nodes, that is actually at least doable or even readable.
So this over-case is already covered by the other rule.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

Sakura Hana wrote:

I dont know about you guys, but for me it looks like both rules are attacking different scenarios

Sakura Hana wrote:

Crumpled sliders are not unrankable as they are, more like making them waaaaay too crumpled makes them unrankable because it becomes extremely slow and is a way around the slider speed limit that prevents hold sliders, as the rule says AIMod will catch any slider of these, so if AIMod says nothing, it's probably ok
if we put something about AIMod in the 2nd rule, it should be plenty.

They're both talking about unacceptable sliders. I'm not 100% on what is not rankable, and that to me is a problem, since the only thing that should be unrankable would be a "hold slider" effect, which is also impossible to follow since it moves in such a way that is impossible to read from start to end.

But the other problem with that is that it's a simple little slider that barely moves and you don't even have to move at all to get a 300 on it. Why is this so unrankable? because it's bad 90% of the time? I feel the same way with 1/4 repeating sliders. they play identically.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
precisely an hold slider using manipulation of Slider Speed, is totally cramped and so unrankable.
Differently combining SV multiplier, with slider anchors/nodes is actually rankable ( you can obtain x0.75 with a finely zigzaged slider and a 0.5x section, x0.38 ) and "Nuked the .osu editing rule." means you can edit the .osu to obtain even x0.01 of SVM , and as so Hold Sliders.
We're waiting Hold Notes(Circles and Slider) mm.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

"Nuked the .osu editing rule." means you can edit the .osu to obtain even x0.01 of SVM , and as so Hold Sliders.
No you can't. Something went wrong if there's no rule stopping these.
Plus there's a bug when the SV becomes amazingly slow so don't do it.
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
From of the "nuke .osu editing rule" thread. "Consensus seems to be that if this causes issues, those issues are what we should be legislating against." But if using slow SVMs causes a bug then it should be obvious that this isn't acceptable
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

mm201 wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

"Nuked the .osu editing rule." means you can edit the .osu to obtain even x0.01 of SVM , and as so Hold Sliders.
No you can't. Something went wrong if there's no rule stopping these.
Plus there's a bug when the SV becomes amazingly slow so don't do it.
Does everything need to be explicitly stated in the rules? Can't we just call the rules lawyer who says that 0.01 SV is rankable an idiot and nuke his map?

I mean I can think up many ways where 0.25x SV or 4.35x SV would be needed, for example, in a compilation map. All the maps will have already been ranked, so you know it's rankable...

The reasoning for getting rid of the osu edit rule and leaving nothing stopping the CS 1 and unrankable stack leniency was because there's no easy way to say it without being a stupid rule, and it's common sense. AIBat/AIMod should catch these errors, and osu forcefully fixes any game data errors on save (which it really shouldn't).
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Except in compilation maps what changes is the BPM not the SV multiplier.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
and the tick rate.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna

Sakura Hana wrote:

Except in compilation maps what changes is the BPM not the SV multiplier.
It's quite possible that one of the maps uses something like 1.4 SV x0.5 inherits and another one 1.6 x2
That would require a larger range of SVs for the compilation
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
33 / 108