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Kudosu in Modding V2

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +27
Aurele
osu! Alumni
7,408 posts
Joined January 2011
Topic Starter
Aurele
a little different from https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/760983
-------------------------
Hello!

I've posted on my Twitter account recently to gather the opinion of players, mappers and modders regarding the state of Kudosus in Modding V2. My goal was to listen to everybody, and possibly develop a new system for what we always knew from Kudosus.

Before looking further, I would like you guys to have a check to the proposal made by Naxess here!

There as been a lot of comment that the current system is flawed and needs a lot of improvement. Here's some of them:
  1. The number of kudosu gained is inflated: It is too easy to gain kudosu with the new system without the same effort as before.
  2. It is easily abusable: Having other people, other than the mapper, to upvote suggestions from a specific modder, inflates their kudosu count. It is also not because one suggestion has many upvotes that the suggestion is great, or has quality.
  3. The current Kudosu is pointless, as it currently serves for no purposes except from collecting.
  4. The "Hype" system, to make the map available for nominators to nominate a map, is used by anyone that doesn't "check" maps at all.

On another aspect of the subject, some users were given silences for their actions with the modding system, as they were "abusing" the upvoting system. Unfortunately, with the current system, it is impossible to determine rules, and it is the reason why I am opening this thread.

Since I would like to create a purpose for the Kudosu system, I am giving out ideas that could be taken into consideration.

What I am suggesting:
  1. Kudosus should only be rewarded by the mapper. The way to do this, would be to replace the current upvotes/downvotes by "Resolved - Kudosu" & "Not resolved - No Kudosu". Only the mapper can find the suggestion helpful for their own map.
  2. Hypes could use kudosus, just like it was used before with Star Priority. For an example, 5 kudosus could be used for one hype.
  3. Achievements. Unlock trophies and special badges with Kudosus.
  4. Reputation system: To show gratitude toward the user for their modding.
  5. Modding Levels could be introduced. For an example, on the forum, you get a different user title depending of your forum posts count. Something similar could be done, but for kudosus. (It could range from (Level 1 "Beginner Modder") to (Level MAX "Modding Expert"))
  6. Different leaderboards for Modding V1 Kudosus and Modding V2 Kudosus. Since it is not rewarded equally, it doesn't seem fair to count all of them together, unless kudosus from the Modding V1 are being inflated to represent the current system.
    (1 mod = 1 kd then VS 1 suggestion = many kudosus now)


If you have any question, please feel to reach me or post your matter here!
hikiko-
236 posts
Joined May 2015
hikiko-
1) nominators and above should continue to be able to give/revoke kds as necessary
2) what about kudosu for mods on gds? does that wait until there's official backend support for gds?
zhu
1,325 posts
Joined March 2016
zhu
Needing 25 kds for 5 hypes are kinda harsh for new mappers as you wont get hypes from mods, like v1 did so in the past. Maybe add "i agree" and "I disagree" button on mods instead of "Resolve post". Choosing agree instantly gives kudosu and also agreeing to like 5 mods gives your map 1 hype. So that it wont be harsh for new mappers imo.
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna
I don't see a real reason to split mv1 and mv2 kudosu, seems as pointless as the current system as we are trying to change it to something meaningful that could give us modders awards and stuff, it will be a dead panel that can't grow up nor has any impact actually as it's rarer than mv2 kudosu; it would be way better to actually nerf the v2 kudos and merge all together in order to make stuff similar and don't create an extra panel.

There are many ways of doing it. There are some problems on mv1 that no matter what you post if it get accepted you can receive 1 kudosu, or even 2 depending on the last post; on v2 you can receive up to 3 kudosu on every point and farm it like crazy;
with the current mv2 structure, you have access to every point of the modder and can put it into a variable, so i believe that you can avoid both:

- making a system that if you have x accepted points by the mapper you can receive up 2 kudosu (the number 2 is just to make it similar to v1 when the last post is older than 7 days). That will ensure that you cannot farm a small point on a bunch of maps nor spam nc mods to farm a lot from a single one as it would make the process way more difficult.
- the reputation could still be related to the amount of upvotes so it could still have a similar structure to stackoverflow, and not mixing kudosu with agreements or disagreements (upvotes and downvotes) as it's a pretty bad idea in my opinion.

tl;dr: focusing on making kudosuv2 similar to kudosuv1 seems more appropriate than creating extra dead data that can't really be changed actually and would make it pointless if still comparable to kudosuv2 on giving rewards and stuff.
Izzywing
osu! Alumni
2,248 posts
Joined March 2016
Izzywing
- making a system that if you have x accepted points by the mapper you can receive up 2 kudosu (the number 2 is just to make it similar to v1 when the last post is older than 7 days). That will ensure that you cannot farm a small point on a bunch of maps nor spam nc mods to farm a lot from a single one as it would make the process way more difficult.
Disagree, cause defining mod usefulness by quantity of points doesn't work. 5 blanket mods will probably not be as useful as a single deconstruction of a failed concept, for example.
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna

Hobbes2 wrote:

Disagree, cause defining mod usefulness by quantity of points doesn't work. 5 blanket mods will probably not be as useful as a single deconstruction of a failed concept, for example.
that's a common sense argument that doesn't really work out for the following reasons:

  1. you can't ever predict the quality of a mod using an automatic system like we have now, also spamming "blanket" would be deemed as abuse of kudosu as you can just match them all together or just say on general "you have a few blankets that could be improved [links as example]", some people on the qat even judge those as something deny worth;
  2. this would actually prevent people from posting "blanket" on 3 maps in a row due to this pre-defined gap of points you have to be accepted to receive the kudosu;
  3. it is a case that doesn't happen 98% of the time if you are modding a map to find a desconstruction of a whole concept and nothing else, if the map is so imperfect the chances of the mapper to do more mistakes is super big, and if you are not up to point more you are not really needing the kudosu that much;
  4. the actual system cannot judge a mod usefulness anyway, you are not going to lose anything, someone could just post a lot of random stuff and you can point a super concept error and nothing will happens about it.
the advanges of nerfing the kudosuv2 though:

  1. if you are a modder since 2010 and you modded a lot of maps during your big modder career and they are really going to give us some rewards due to your contribution to the game. it's stupid to your 2018 mods carry 70% of the total value of your modding for years, also it makes super unbalanced cause recent modders can reach you super fast, so it looks you wasted time during those years. this way it wouldn't happen;
  2. it's better to have some idea in mind to prevent kudosu abuse than none.
Nofool
Elite Mapper
1,102 posts
Joined February 2011
Nofool

Gabe wrote:

[*]Hypes could use kudosus, just like it was used before with Star Priority. For an example, 5 kudosus could be used for one hype.
If kudosus end up being used in this or in a similar way, do you plan on removing all the underserved(as in not given the way they should with the new system) kudosus that were given so far? If not then the system you want to establish will be flawed for years because of how stupid the amount of kudosus every modders have is right now.

Hobbes2 wrote:

Disagree, cause defining mod usefulness by quantity of points doesn't work. 5 blanket mods will probably not be as useful as a single deconstruction of a failed concept, for example.
X similar blanket thingy suggestions should only be given 1 upvote/accepted point for the total instead of X upvotes/accepted points (up to the mapper to do so),
as for the "deconstruction of a failed concept" kind of suggestion, if you(as a modder) feel like it might deserve more than one upvote/accepted point, then you can split it in several suggestions.

Id agree with Trynna's idea(Y upvotes/accepted points = 1 kudosu) + the X kudosus per hype idea

Tho i don't totaly agree with rewarding just "accepted points", any point that the mapper consider relevant is worth rewarding
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna
the idea behind "all suggestions are worth kudosu" is an idea that made sense back on v1 where all the posts were one and not separated in separated points, but now talking about proportions a mapper that does a lot of suggestions receives a lot of kudosu while the modder that suggests only 1 point receive up to 3 at maximum, (which is rare, 90% of times it's 1 kudosu only) so this is not a big deal anymore, is deprecated since the rewards are not equal since mv2 update.

Reputation would do it's job though, no matter which suggestion is it, if an upvote is given you receive a reputation point and so on, kudosu would work as something important and rarer than reputation, only given to a person that spent some time modding it for real; this way leveling up some kind of badge or special title would make sense.

at least that's the way i elaborated the system in my mind, but maybe it's not the best option, i'm waiting for people to suggest more stuff so i can think more about.
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet
idrc what comes from this but i do wanna say that kudosu inflation isn't actually an issue bc everyone will just get used to the higher numbers
Aurele
osu! Alumni
7,408 posts
Joined January 2011
Topic Starter
Aurele
I will reply to the others later.

UndeadCapulet wrote:

idrc what comes from this but i do wanna say that kudosu inflation isn't actually an issue bc everyone will just get used to the higher numbers

This triggers me so much. It is not a case of "people will get over it" or "everyone will get used to the higher numbers", it’s more like both system doesn’t match together as they are not rewarded equally and there are so many flaws coming out of it in general...
Last edited by Aurele , edited 1 time in total.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
I would really like to see ModdingV1 kudosu multiplied to equal ModdingV2. Let's say we cap ModdingV2 kudosu at say 10 kds max per map. We should multiply all V1 Kudosu's by that amount. Currently, kudosu inflation is very imbalanced because these two systems are not being distinguished. Modders who've been with the game for years now have about the same, or even less kudosu than people who've been modding for the last 6 months (actively). Idk about you guys, but I used to see kd count as a measure of a modder's experience and knowledge in mapping theory. At least somewhat. Nowadays that's been thrown out the window.

Imagine if a new pp system was implemented that allowed players to receive as much as 10x the pp as they were able to achieve before. But the leaderboards weren't reset or scores weren't readjusted. You'd have like random 5 digits that have the same pp as Cookiezi. You get my point lol.
Trynna
714 posts
Joined May 2013
Trynna
the point is, you can't really have access to points on mv1, everything is a single post and every post with a valid point is valid, so buffing mv1 would award you for stuff like saying a small point. If you actually nerf mv2 kudosu you can make both similar and try to give a maximum amount of kudosu per map instead of infinite, this way both can be similar and you are not really rewarding people with a small post to receive 10x more kudosu than they should receive initially
pimp
1,417 posts
Joined April 2010
pimp
couldn't agree more, have some stars.
[MTF] Wolfette
[MTF] Wolfette

Monstrata wrote:

I would really like to see ModdingV1 kudosu multiplied to equal ModdingV2. Let's say we cap ModdingV2 kudosu at say 10 kds max per map. We should multiply all V1 Kudosu's by that amount. Currently, kudosu inflation is very imbalanced because these two systems are not being distinguished. Modders who've been with the game for years now have about the same, or even less kudosu than people who've been modding for the last 6 months (actively). Idk about you guys, but I used to see kd count as a measure of a modder's experience and knowledge in mapping theory. At least somewhat. Nowadays that's been thrown out the window.

Imagine if a new pp system was implemented that allowed players to receive as much as 10x the pp as they were able to achieve before. But the leaderboards weren't reset or scores weren't readjusted. You'd have like random 5 digits that have the same pp as Cookiezi. You get my point lol.

I don't think max 10kds per map would work, considering there's marathons upwards of 7 minutes that could possible get dozens of mods by a single person.

I think it should be like 2 additional kudosu you can gain for every minute of the map (Map length in minutes x 2), that way it's balanced and rewards people for greater modding activity on longer maps (which already get refusal for mods and timing a lot).

For non marathon maps, it should be the same thing, except the kudosu you can earn is spread evenly among all diffs (and the value is floored, obviously, kudosu can't be a decimal).



I feel this could be great opportunity to fix the main problem plaguing modding v1: The fact that no matter how great, in depth, long, or complex your mod was, you could only get a max of 2 kudosu.

At the same time tho, getting 10 kudosu on one diff for "Move note here", "Add finisher sound", "Replace these circles with reverse arrows", "Fix this slider shape" type of mods that, more often than not, don't really help improve the map.
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