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[Proposal] Making Burai Sliders Rankable

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Monstrata
There are a few other "loopholes" in the RC, but I think this one makes sense... The RC technically allows burai's as long as they are not "unreadable or ambiguous". The rule lists "burais" as an example of an unrankable issue, but only when they do not have "straightforward slider borders".

(Grammatically, "straightforward slider borders" modifies both "burais" and "hold sliders" so you should read it this way, not "burais (all) and hold sliders (but only when they don't have straightforward slider borders).)

Burai's with predictable slider paths have already seen use in the ranked section, but they are currently being used in very rare instances.

Some examples like:

It is not a stretch to extend some of these elements and create small bumps and grooves that are potentially burais but play well. Furthermore, using angle shifts would make the slider explicitly rankable as it is now mathematically not going over itself no matter how close to a burai it may appear.

Example of ranked sliders:

This is not a burai as the slider never actually goes back on itself due to angle change:


Similarly, sliders like this don't break the rule for burai's either because the slider never actually goes back on itself and doesn't qualify as burai to begin with.


People are pushing the boundaries of slider creation in part because the "tech map" meta is evolving to include more creative and unique slider patterns. That's one of the recent characteristic changes in "wub" or "experimental" mapping etc... Whether this rule is changed or not, there are already a lot sliders that technically do not break the rule to begin with.
anna apple

Monstrata wrote:

There are a few other "loopholes" in the RC, but I think this one makes sense... The RC technically allows burai's as long as they are not "unreadable or ambiguous". The rule lists "burais" as an example of an unrankable issue, but only when they do not have "straightforward slider borders".

(Grammatically, "straightforward slider borders" modifies both "burais" and "hold sliders" so you should read it this way, not "burais (all) and hold sliders (but only when they don't have straightforward slider borders).)

Burai's with predictable slider paths have already seen use in the ranked section, but they are currently being used in very rare instances.
I'm a native English speaker and this doens't make sense to me :(
can you reword things to make more sense
Okoratu
the burai sliders were an example in the wording, not the actual content of the rule

the actual content before is the content that matters, burais without clear sliderborders are the thing that is lol
Pachiru
as long as the slider is edgy but it can still be predictable even if its not really clear, i don't see problems in it
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
i've been told to bump this by mir qat due to recent map discussions

@mir post a thingy
Mir
thanks UC

So, the rule for burais is still confusing and to an extent disagreed with in part or wholly by different QATs and BNs alike even a year from this proposal. Honestly I don't quite know what to do with how this is worded either.

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any or their individual sections unreadable or ambiguous cannot be used, such as burai sliders and hold sliders without straightforward slider borders.


From how I read this, the usage of burai and hold sliders sort of gives off the impression that those are not allowed. But we've seen several examples of where burai is readable, which keeps in line with the entire rest of the rule.

Examples: https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/862573/discussion/1804279/timeline#/879121
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/844719/discussion/1766943/timeline#/879749

Many maps with "tumor" sliders (sliders with minor burai "bumps") have been ranked in the past without much of an issue despite being technically burai.

I've had a couple of suggestions given to me on how to resolve this issue, the easiest of which is just remove the entire second half of the rule.

Amended Rule wrote:

Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any or their individual sections unreadable or ambiguous cannot be used.


This doesn't specify burai specifically, so it's clearer that if the slider happens to be burai, but still readable, it will abide by these rules and be rankable. Currently the "at a glance" interpretation is "burai bad" but with maps ranked recently that clearly isn't the case.

Regarding what UC said about moving the rule to diff specific and guideline for insanes/extra, I don't particularly mind that either way but examples like



shouldn't be rankable because it's not immediately clear even in higher difficulties (correct me if I'm wrong). Though reading the rule it kind of already covers it. I'll leave this here in case I misunderstood or something <:

Would appreciate a resolution coming out of this this time around, since this rule is admittedly getting annoying to keep re-interpreting every time a case arises.
Lasse
change suggested in ^ sounds good and would be a nice change to avoid lots of pointless discussion about sliders that should be totally rankable since their pathing is clear, while still not allowing things that will actually be misleading or unreadable
Okoratu
i dont mind sliders overlapping themselves in a way that the direction they go in is predictable and they dont overlap themselves for an ambiguous amount of time (as in the sliderball keeps actually indicating that the sliders is moving somewhere), that would mean that stuff like

is fine to me as long as the slider does what you'd expect from it by looking at it

i dont think this is a diff specific thing, because either you can expect what's about to happen to this shitter of a slider or you can't
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
well i say diffspecific bc new players are still getting used to playing, like, straight sliders. sliders like the one oko posted or other weird ones would be pretty unfair in that context.

tho then again i guess that's already covered by the "Use straightforward and easily understandable slider shapes. New players may not understand how to follow more complex shapes." guidelines? /shrug

also i personally dont have an issue w/ the slider mir posted but w/ev babysteps

maybe having some sort of written examples of what's "ambiguous" bc rn the rulechange would just be making the rule even more subjective and inconsistently enforced than it currently is. it'd be best to have as few case-by-case rules as possible (and making anything we need to be case-by-case as easy to interpret as possible). examples like: "sliders with multiple forks at a crossroad", "loop sliders that have perfectly overlapped head and tail", things like that.
(also change "any or their" to any of their" like 4n3c mentioned in minor fixes thread ww)
Mir
So make something like a bulleted list of examples that aren't okay? I think that would just confuse people more if their case isn't covered by the listed examples. That's kind of why the current sucks because burai is listed as an example but people interpret it differently as if it's "just an example" or something that you actually shouldn't do.

That said, I don't have any suggestions to word it differently :/
CXu
Regarding the slider:


You could argue this is readable in the same way loops and any other semi-ambiguous slider is played, that is you follow it in the "obvious" path that it makes, and only allow it in that configuration. i.e Left-Right-Up-Down, and not Left-Up-Right-Down, due to the curves of the slider, similar to how you would expect a loop to be, well looping, and not have a path like Ω. Basically, the suggested curves in the slider dictates a lot how people read the slider. It's the same reason Notch Hell sliders work.


I don't mind either way in this particular case, just wanted to point it out.
pishifat
low diffs have their own rules for complex slidershapes already, so i dont think this needs to be diffspecific.


https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2156 changed to kinda mir's suggestion + invis slidertail info:

Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders that overlap themselves without straightforward slider borders and sliders whose individual sections are unreadable cannot be used. A slider's end position must be clear under the assumption that a player has a fully transparent `sliderendpoint.png` skin element.



"straightforward slider borders" are mentioned because the implied path is usually what we're relying on to know if a self-overlapping slider is readable. if there is no implied motion (or otherwise obvious path due to a slider's huge size like the cryo map in op), then it's likely not reasonable

sliderend skin element is mentioned to disallow this kind of ambiguity, which is readable with the visible slidertail. if someone says the rc should only consider the default skin they're gonna get slapped
Lasse
"sliderendpoint.png" is not a thing, should be sliderendcircle.png / sliderendcircleoverlay.png
otherwise change sounds fine

might be easier to define "transparent slidertails" in the glossary and replace it with that term here
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
*clears throat*
the rc should only consider the default skin and the map-specific skin. anything else is the player's fault for changing the base intended gameplay experience. we dont consider when people skin out combo colours or numbers currently, we shouldn't consider slidertails being skinned out either.

(i play with my tails skinned out, too, but still feel this way)
quila
[deleted as part of purging my old post history]
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
thats good to know but like, if that poses a problem in 2029 when lazer's out we can address it then. until then we should be basing rc on current ver. there's no guarantee it'll stay like that anyway.

(also lazer sliderbodies disappear as you play along them which makes many burais readable in another way so we'd be having to re-evaluate our slider rules then anyway)
quila
[deleted as part of purging my old post history]
pishifat
even if the default skin is ok for certain sliders, too many people currently use transparent tails to ignore in this case. similar unintended gameplay experience rc restrictions exist for the same reason, like those about black combo colors and custom sample normal/soft finishes -- this slider one will affect way more people than those though

i also dont think lazer is relevant to the current rule. that can be dealt with when it comes
Left
Some burai examples ppl addressed here looks reasonable, but i can sure mappers will try to rank more and more unreadable one.. and that would be a problem
Yusomi

Left wrote:

Some burai examples ppl addressed here looks reasonable, but i can sure mappers will try to rank more and more unreadable one.. and that would be a problem


i think this would only be a problem if the ranking process was automated and mappers were trusted to behave themselves. but ranking process operates on a case by case basis, meaning every attempt at making an unreadable slider will be heavily judged.



this thread also raises the question why sliders must be sightreadable. low AR overlapping patterns aren't expected to be sightread, it's expected that the player learn these maps through multiple plays and yet they are perfectly rankable. (plus it's a lot of fun to actually learn to play a map that's not easily sightreadable)
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
@pishi both of those examples are related to default in-game settings, which is very different from users going out of their way to remove entire files from their skins. when people make massive game changes like that they're doing so with the understanding it may have unintended consequences. people deviating from the base game's settings shouldn't impact the base game's ranking criteria. they can just add the files back if they find it a problem.
pishifat
there's separate files for heads/tails because people used skinning workarounds to achieve the invis tail effect, just as bg dim exists because people were deleting/replacing bgs

regardless of the intended experience, too much of the current playerbase uses certain unintended settings to be told that they aren't valid ways to play anymore
clayton

UC wrote:

when people make massive game changes like that they're doing so with the understanding it may have unintended consequences


skinning is a well-supported and encouraged aspect of the game, I'm not sure people should expect things to go wrong if they make a normal skin. maybe this would've been a good point back in the day before sliderendcircle existed, but now it does

Yusomi wrote:

this thread also raises the question why sliders must be sightreadable. low AR overlapping patterns aren't expected to be sightread, it's expected that the player learn these maps through multiple plays


since I agree with the low-AR example being rankable, here is the difference I find between the two: while you can sightread the low-AR overlaps (it just takes a certain skill to do it right the first time), an unsightreadable slider would be impossible to properly read before you start hitting it, no matter how good you are. low-AR overlaps can be learned over multiple plays, but an unsightreadable slider is learned immediately, once, and it just feels like you're being cheated out of a good run if you happen to miss it during a sightread

so I think it's just poor game design to put those kinds of sliders in ranked maps.

FWIW, not all "burai" sliders are unsightreadable, though. if I'm understanding correctly, this rule wants to make potentially readable burai sliders rankable
pishifat
merged
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