The thing is even BNs known for circlejerking or whatever tend to nominate more non bn maps than bn maps anyway. Without any specific stats this is all just assumptions.
its not really the community that's downvote spamming maps, usually there is a big mapper drama and it tends to make the one map related to the drama receive a bunch of downvotes. Also even if it wasn't related to drama it wouldn't be a testament to this proposal seeing how many more of these maps being proposed to be unrankable have no issues in user rating.CXu wrote:
Three of the most downvoted maps in osu! history were mapped by a BN and ranked withinthe same monthtwo weeks of each other this year. Do you really think there were no community push back for those maps? While I'm not here to argue if those maps belong in the ranked section or not, it's clear that what the community thinks doesn't actually matter in many cases.
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As much as I agree but:UndeadCapulet wrote:
"circlejerking" isnt a problem at all for a number of reasons:what is there to even worry about?
- the job of bng is to push forward quality mapsets, and bn's are typically really good at making quality mapsets, so bn's pushing each other's maps is good for the game
- bn's get literally nothing for all the volunteer work they do to promote quality content to the ranked section, b4b'ing is the only thing close to an incentive they have for being in the bng (but again, most don't need that anyway bc their maps are usually easy to rank whether they're bn or not)
- as an extension of the first point, it typically doesn't take very long to check a set made by a bn. it's usually really easy for a bn to fit a b4b icon into their schedule without it being detrimental to the rest of their bn work
"bn's only rank each other's maps"
you can take a look at qualified section at any point in time and there's always more non-bn sets there than there are bn sets.
"bn's are circlejerking shitty maps to rank"
bn maps can be vetted by community just the same as other mappers' maps, maybe start pushing back against them in qualified if you think their maps are so shitty
"new mappers can't get their maps ranked at all"
first of all, this isn't true, as shown by the massive list of rookies mca just put out. and bn's were all once new mappers, too, and they didn't have such issue. maybe those new mappers that can't rank their maps should put more work in to contributing to the community instead of bitching on reddit/modhelp/twitter/wherever. a big part of the ranking process is becoming someone who people will actually want to help, and most people don't want to help idiots that whine about circlejerking all the time.
even if circlejerking is an issue, your proposal is nonsense:trying to stop people from doing the only thing that makes their countless hours of volunteer work remotely worth the effort is rly, rly stupid
- such a system effectively results in bn's losing out on potential bn's for their own sets. why would anyone ever want to be a bn when it makes their maps harder to get ranked
- it's virtually impossible for higherups to ensure people are obeying the rules. bn's pump out a lot of maps, and with each map creating a wait time, qat would be spending countless hours tracking wait times and scouring qualified. they also have no incentive to do this, since qat also "benefit from circlejerking". this is a massive, unproductive workload for people that have far better things to do with their time.
- arbitrary wait times only delay issues instead of fixing them, bn's can always just wait out the time period to circlejerk, or even just extend their circlejerk as large as they need so they don't get flagged by the system as circlejerking
"bn's are circlejerking shitty maps to rank"This is the real reason why bn circlejerk or just friend nominating is a problem, they look past the quality of the map and simply nominate it. There of course is no proof for that but it's fairly obvious in some cases. You know that vetted by community is not a thing though, the community has 0 vote and for such cases we're on the mercy of qat being brave enough to step in.
bn maps can be vetted by community just the same as other mappers' maps, maybe start pushing back against them in qualified if you think their maps are so shitty
If not part of the community, who is downvoting? Dismissing part of the community because "mapper drama" is what I mean by the fact that it doesn't actually matter what they think. Not everyone in a community will agree on something, but it should be pretty clear which part of the community holds more power in the discussion around those particular maps.bor wrote:
its not really the community that's downvote spamming maps, usually there is a big mapper drama and it tends to make the one map related to the drama receive a bunch of downvotes. Also even if it wasn't related to drama it wouldn't be a testament to this proposal seeing how many more of these maps being proposed to be unrankable have no issues in user rating.CXu wrote:
Three of the most downvoted maps in osu! history were mapped by a BN and ranked withinthe same monthtwo weeks of each other this year. Do you really think there were no community push back for those maps? While I'm not here to argue if those maps belong in the ranked section or not, it's clear that what the community thinks doesn't actually matter in many cases.
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I don't have much to say to this, encouraging is almost always better than restricting something, agree to thisShiguma wrote:
People talking about giving an incentive to bubbling newer mapper's stuff, and I agree. We shouldn't punish BN's for B4B, but rather reward them for bubbling maps from mappers with little to no ranked maps.
I was thinking we could make a leaderboard for BNs. Not like the spreadsheet thing from the BAT days, as I don't believe you should be penalized for making mistakes when you bubble/qualify a set. BNs are humans like the rest of us, and everyone makes mistakes. It's also a video game, people take this way too seriously sometimes.
The incentive for playing this game is just having fun, which for most people is seeing their rank improve. For mappers, I would say ranking a map is a reward because you expose your content for tens of thousands to see/play. Meanwhile, what is the reward for being a BN? When you download a map, there is nowhere to see who nominated the set (unless mapper puts in the description). Until recently, BNs didn't even have a tag on their profile. As a BN, you are pushing other people's sets to ranked, with basically no reward, even mentally.
I'd love for someone more knowledgeable on this, as I'm not sure why the system is as it is. What was the point of keeping BN stuff hush-hush? Knowing someone's a BN, and being able to know how good of a BN they are sounds interesting to me, and I think a lot of mappers would think so as well.
Having the BAT spreadsheet was stressful, because it made it like work, where if you messed up, there were consequences (e.g. getting removed from BAT). If we made it a leaderboard style thing, if implemented properly I think it would make it so BNs strive to try and get into the top "ranks". It could have a positive-only score system, where you get a base amount of points for nominating any map, and more points for doing certain things, like nominating a newer mapper's map, or nominating an artist not mapped/ranked in the game yet. (Obviously I haven't made a system for this cuz it's just an idea)
The intention for this is to make being a BN fun, with the leaderboard being the incentivize to strive to improve vs other BNs, while a positive points system would incentvize themi do things that they normally wouldn't do (check newer mapper sets, bubble unconventional maps, maps above 7* that arent just PP jumps)
I'd love to know what people think about something like this, because I think it could work *if* implemented well.
Mishima Yurara wrote:
bringing incentives for people to rank non bn maps instead wpuld be a better option than punishing bns for nominating bn maps
MaridiuS wrote:
This is the real reason why bn circlejerk or just friend nominating is a problem, they look past the quality of the map and simply nominate it.
So there are two problems.Shiguma wrote:
People talking about giving an incentive to bubbling newer mapper's stuff, and I agree. We shouldn't punish BN's for B4B, but rather reward them for bubbling maps from mappers with little to no ranked maps.
Or instead, incentivize? This gives the same result but without shitting on BN's:-Tochi wrote:
A way to encourage BNs to rank non-BN maps instead of circlejerking can be something to do with points and kudosu.
For instance;
- Nominating a BN map only gives you 50-70% of the points you normally get and only 1 kudosu.
- Nominating a non-BN map gives you 100% of the points you normally get and 2 kudosu.
This way if BNs circlejerk too much they won't get enough points to be considered active (by the BN system they have).
what about a bn's who doesn't have a ranked map, he could be even penalized as a "unknown mapper" for just being a bn. there is any criteria like having a ranked map to join the bng.-Tochi wrote:
A way to encourage BNs to rank non-BN maps instead of circlejerking can be something to do with points and kudosu.
For instance;
- Nominating a BN map only gives you 50-70% of the points you normally get and only 1 kudosu.
- Nominating a non-BN map gives you 100% of the points you normally get and 2 kudosu.
This way if BNs circlejerk too much they won't get enough points to be considered active (by the BN system they have).
Something like this would seem more realistic.
yikesStefan wrote:
Leave this to the QAT, they are reliable enough to make appropriate steps to call a halt for circlejerks.
If you look at the target of the community's love lately, Sotarks maps have gotten walls and walls of distaste, some with good explanations, some with pure anger, etc etc. In the vast majority of these cases, the concerns are waved off very easily with an "it's fine" or "i prefer it this way". This isn't just Sotarks though, most mappers who are prolific enough have done this too. The community word is not weighted nearly as heavily as that of a BN or QAT. We hold power in our title and we're elevated users because of that. I was a BN in 2016, kicked from BN, and now I've rejoined, so I know both sides of this coin very well. From recent times, it is very clear to see community pushback is NOT working, and with the power that some nominators have within their own personal groups, the community will likely never have power over them.UndeadCapulet wrote:
"bn's are circlejerking shitty maps to rank"
bn maps can be vetted by community just the same as other mappers' maps, maybe start pushing back against them in qualified if you think their maps are so shitty
We could use some healthy discussion from the community anyway. Discussion helps bring attention to the problem, and it helps to form a general opinion.Stefan wrote:
Leave this to the QAT, they are reliable enough to make appropriate steps to call a halt for circlejerks.