[Proposal] Spread requirements based on song length

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DNR

Mentai wrote:

again goes with my theory that every map (that isn't the new 1 diff length) that should just require a hard of some sort since it seems that's where the majority of plays are, thus technically, the least amount of alienation.

for example, if you need 3 diffs, you can do Hard Insane Extra or Normal Hard Extra
if you need 2, you can do Hard Extra or whatever

i hope people don't keep ignoring this xd
"Let's reduce alienation by just not having a decent spread of difficulties."

The plan that you're proposing sort of makes it into "let's only have difficulties that fit who we think are playing the most", which is problematic because that in itself alienates a LOT of people, which seems counter-intuitive to what you're planning.

Which is why I sort of have my idea up (I've been busy as fuck so I haven't really been able to keep up with this thread) that there are STILL spread requirements, but that you're not required to make sort of these super long and not intuitive 4 minute Easies, but rather you have something that is more appropriate for the demographic that is playing these diffs (which is a shorter difficulty that plays a reasonable amount of the song).
abraker
I once proposed an idea somewhere where you would have slots for how many extreme, insane, hard, normal, and easy diffs you can rank. The slots you have for higher diffs would depend on how many lower diffs you ranked and their length.

This can solve the alienation problem CDFA is mentioning.

For example, if you rank 1 easy diff 5 min long, then that would open a slot for one of the hard, insane, extreme diffs.
If you rank 1 easy diff that is 1 min 30 sec long, then that would open a slot for hard and insane diff, and it would require another diff on same or different map to open a slot for extreme diff

I am not sure what the best combinations for slot unlocking be, so it would take some discussion to find what is best.
DNR

abraker wrote:

I once proposed an idea somewhere where you would have slots for how many extreme, insane, hard, normal, and easy diffs you can rank. The slots you have for higher diffs would depend on how many lower diffs you ranked and their length.

This can solve the alienation problem CDFA is mentioning.

For example, if you rank 1 easy diff 5 min long, then that would open a slot for one of the hard, insane, extreme diffs.
If you rank 1 easy diff that is 1 min 30 sec long, then that would open a slot for hard and insane diff, and it would require another diff on same or different map to open a slot for extreme diff

I am not sure what the best combinations for slot unlocking be, so it would take some discussion to find what is best.
no lmao.

That's way too complex and unnecessary for something that can be solved in a MUCH easier way by saying "Map a full spread but the shorter diffs can be shorter than the harder diffs"
Mentai

CDFA wrote:

Mentai wrote:

again goes with my theory that every map (that isn't the new 1 diff length) that should just require a hard of some sort since it seems that's where the majority of plays are, thus technically, the least amount of alienation.

for example, if you need 3 diffs, you can do Hard Insane Extra or Normal Hard Extra
if you need 2, you can do Hard Extra or whatever

i hope people don't keep ignoring this xd
"Let's reduce alienation by just not having a decent spread of difficulties."

The plan that you're proposing sort of makes it into "let's only have difficulties that fit who we think are playing the most", which is problematic because that in itself alienates a LOT of people, which seems counter-intuitive to what you're planning.

Which is why I sort of have my idea up (I've been busy as fuck so I haven't really been able to keep up with this thread) that there are STILL spread requirements, but that you're not required to make sort of these super long and not intuitive 4 minute Easies, but rather you have something that is more appropriate for the demographic that is playing these diffs (which is a shorter difficulty that plays a reasonable amount of the song).
what? lol

this is in the universe of actually removing difficulty requirements. i'm, actually 100% against this proposition, i would rather map full spreads because it's a rewarding experience, personally.

the worst part of doing these things i literally because of spread, like you'll have to make a huge spread still if you want your 6* extra diff, and that's not really reducing workload in the way the people seemingly want it to be done. so having at least the base line where every mapset requires the most played diff out of all song lengths and not have to map 3 extras to fit a spread seems way more reasonable to me than anything else thus far
DNR
That's really great that you enjoy mapping full spreads. I do too. But that doesn't mean that the ranking criteria has to fit your personal beliefs of what is the most satisfying things to do. Otherwise you know my ass would be all over the RC adding shit that I believe in mapping :P. Ranking Criteria is just the baseline set of rules that people have to follow, and people are free to do whatever gives them satisfaction after that.

I don't really think that the goal of this is to really reduce workload in the way that you're looking at it. This proposition, at least the way I'm viewing it, is in the vain of making lower difficulties more applicable to newer players who want to play a song that might be too long for them to handle, or for mappers that aren't able to dish out 4 minutes of content when working with simplified rhythms. Something where you're trying to just get rid of spread requirements is pretty silly, because that's alienating people that still play easies and normals and such (as well as people that may play insanes if you map something like an HX spread, for instance).

Like spread is still important for making the songs applicable to the largest group of people, so I disagree with you wanting to get rid of spread requirements, but I feel that we need to be able to provide content that is more appropriate to the skill and developmental level of people playing these difficulties.
abraker

CDFA wrote:

That's way too complex and unnecessary for something that can be solved in a MUCH easier way by saying "Map a full spread but the shorter diffs can be shorter than the harder diffs"
From the mapper's perspective that's great!

From the player's perspective that's like giving a newbie a 31 key toy piano while giving the better player an actual piano and putting them in one room to compare. You can learn to play things on the toy piano, but it's mockery and no more than a joke.

I am not in favor of cutting a difficulty shorter than another, and would put it as the last option.
DNR

abraker wrote:

CDFA wrote:

That's way too complex and unnecessary for something that can be solved in a MUCH easier way by saying "Map a full spread but the shorter diffs can be shorter than the harder diffs"
From the mapper's perspective that's great!

From the player's perspective that's like giving a newbie a 31 key toy piano while giving the better player better the actual piano and putting them in one room to compare. You can learn to play things on the toy piano, but it's mockery and no more than a joke.

I am not in favor of cutting a difficulty shorter than another, and would put it as the last option.
Well it's obviously not infantilizing the player.

Instead of using that comparison, instead say that you buy a person learning piano a 61 key electric keyboard, and then upgrade them to the full 88 key piano as they get more skilled and outgrow the instrument.

There is no real need for the piano student to have access to all of this extra range, all of the pedals, weighted keys, etc. At this stage of the game, they're leaning how to read music, how to identify notes, how to play with multiple hands, etc. They're building a foundation and it's in the best interest of the teacher to give them the appropriate tools that they need to become successful, instead of just throwing a professional instrument at them. If they HAVE a professional instrument starting out, that's fantastic, but certain instruments are appropriate for skill development.

That's why student horns exist. I played on a Jean Baptiste small shank trombone when I was first learning trombone, and it was easy enough to play for my 5th grade self to play. It didn't have a trigger, didn't have a large shank mouthpiece, and was relatively a very basic horn, but it served the purpose of teaching me the fundamentals of how to play the instrument, before I then decided to upgrade to my Yamaha Xeno (rip in peace though, sold it to buy my Miraphone 1291BBb Tuba.)

With beatmapping, it's the same way. You're not producing less quality CONTENT, but rather you're putting the content in a sort of framework and level that the players can more tangibly handle, and that they player would most benefit from. Having a 4 minute easy really develops nothing (Except maybe endurance, but endurance is moreso built through consistent clicking over time rather than just pure drain time), so it seems pointless to have it drone on for that long when there are better avenues for development.
Mentai

CDFA wrote:

That's really great that you enjoy mapping full spreads. I do too. But that doesn't mean that the ranking criteria has to fit your personal beliefs of what is the most satisfying things to do. Otherwise you know my ass would be all over the RC adding shit that I believe in mapping :P. Ranking Criteria is just the baseline set of rules that people have to follow, and people are free to do whatever gives them satisfaction after that.

I don't really think that the goal of this is to really reduce workload in the way that you're looking at it. This proposition, at least the way I'm viewing it, is in the vain of making lower difficulties more applicable to newer players who want to play a song that might be too long for them to handle, or for mappers that aren't able to dish out 4 minutes of content when working with simplified rhythms. Something where you're trying to just get rid of spread requirements is pretty silly, because that's alienating people that still play easies and normals and such (as well as people that may play insanes if you map something like an HX spread, for instance).

Like spread is still important for making the songs applicable to the largest group of people, so I disagree with you wanting to get rid of spread requirements, but I feel that we need to be able to provide content that is more appropriate to the skill and developmental level of people playing these difficulties.
i'm reading the original post, not what has been thrown around in the comments here, it is essentially all about workload, and in general, spreads tend to be the reason why this huge workload even exists. so, it is probably the most relevant topic about this discussion actually
abraker

CDFA wrote:

...
You do have a point that a new person doesn't need all the extra bells and whistles, but my main concern is putting the training instrument and the professional instrument side-by-side in one room. Without much know as to why one should play on the training instrument first, they see the professional instrument cooler and will opt to do that instead.

Incoming players mostly play songs they like. Why would such player want to play their favorite song tv size when there is a full version in another diff? I see new players boasting about how they pass 5* diffs with a bunch of misses, and then make threads in G&R complaining that they are not getting any better. I speculate this will give them even a bigger incentive not to play easier diffs which have the map cut short.
DNR

abraker wrote:

CDFA wrote:

...
You do have a point that a new person doesn't need all the extra bells and whistles, but my main concern is putting the training instrument and the professional instrument side-by-side in one room. Without much know as to why one should play on the training instrument first, they see the professional instrument cooler and will opt to do that instead.

Incoming players mostly play songs they like. Why would such player want to play their favorite song tv size when there is a full version in another diff? I see new players boasting about how they pass 5* diffs with a bunch of misses, and then make threads in G&R complaining that they are not getting any better. I speculate this will give them even a bigger incentive not to play easier diffs that have the map cut short.
Well that's on them lmao idk what to say lmao.

Probably a better comparison in that vain would be looking at repetoire in the music world. So like you do a quick google search or go on youtube and you're like "Holy shit it's the fucking Blue Bells of Scotland", so every trombone player goes, buys it, and just kinda fucks around on it and has a lot of pride that they can kinda play all of the fast parts, when in actuality they haven't really learned any of the skills or probably even played it super well, they just diddled around and made some sort of sound that is in the vain of the Blue Bells of Scotland.

As an instructor, I of course tell my students that that's NOT how they get better, and that they have to sort of spend their time working on scales and etude books and easier rep, but that is never going to stop them from going out and dicking around on stuff that isn't at their level.

The most I can do is to just sort of make sure that I'm creating enough content and giving content to people that is more appropriate so that at least THEY can get better at what they do, and when people who dick around on 5* maps ask "why am I not getting better", they can have appropriate material to then work with.
abraker

CDFA wrote:

As an instructor, I of course tell my students that that's NOT how they get better, and that they have to sort of spend their time working on scales and etude books and easier rep, but that is never going to stop them from going out and dicking around on stuff that isn't at their level.

CDFA wrote:

The most I can do is to just sort of make sure that I'm creating enough content and giving content to people that is more appropriate so that at least THEY can get better at what they do, and when people who dick around on 5* maps ask "why am I not getting better", they can have appropriate material to then work with.
Yes, truth be told that's how people who don't know better behave. I do urge to be aware of this and not to make matters worse by encouraging such behavior. You believe it's on them, but I ask to be thoughtful by designing things in such way that helps them.
stq
great idea
x86

CDFA wrote:

As an instructor, I of course tell my students
Man you've been in osu so long you're teaching students now
DNR

x86 wrote:

CDFA wrote:

As an instructor, I of course tell my students
Man you've been in osu so long you're teaching students now
thanks for your comment.
_handholding

x86 wrote:


In my opinion, total playcount is a better measure of how much each category is getting played, but you can argue long Easy/Normal/Hard maps are getting pretty high playcounts still.
I wonder how many people of those easy diffs are actually beginners and not just 3k pp full mod players

Also I wonder how many people actually find these sets as redundant
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/405051
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/363118
Lavi
Honestly, it really doesn't affect me in any way and my brain might not be big enough for this discussion but I decided to post here anyway. In my opinion, just remove the 'reasonable spread' rule from 4:30+ songs but increase marathon SONG length to 6mins (with drain being let's say, 80% of the mp3's length, which effectively lowers the current required drain time for 1 difficulty sets, round it to 4:50). 5min songs won't be extended as much if the alternative is just making an easy/normal difficulty without all the fillers nobody wants to make anyway. Let's be honest, it doesn't take nearly as long as the higher difficulties. It could also allow mappers to insert a goddamn break without worrying about drain time in their maps, leaving some breathing room for the players. That, or just don't allow mp3 manipulation in ranked maps, there are loved/graveyard sections in this game too.
Xenok
I think this idea is really cool, can only agree tbh. Nice proposal UC :D
Left
:0 i didnt like it but 7 page discussion is huh bye GL
timemon
Reminder that you can still make a full spread marathon. It is just a choice.
But if you want to map anything 4:59 or lower, it is a rule.

I'm all for more choices for mappers who want to undertake on longer songs. And remember if you enjoy mapping full spread, you can continue to do that

From my experience my N/H makes up half of the playcounts. So I will continue to make them regardless of this proposal.
negusver
I think people are missing a lot of new incentives a system like the proposed could bring. Not only would the reduced workload enable experienced mappers make 4-4:59 songs avaible to a broader playerbase (since instead of one topdiff+R3 or the map not being ranked at all, the spread would actually be directed towards a 4 and 5* playerbase). 4 min hard or normal only spreads would be a great opportunity for new mappers to get their first map ranked more easily. That's great, since new mappers are most often mapping to share their own taste in music - thus broadening the ground of genres/artists being playable in the game.
So not only would 4-4:59 songs finally be mappable/playable for experienced mappers/players - also the mapping community could potentially grow more easily in terms of numbers in mappers and artists being ranked.
One downside I could see would be that a lot of fresh music/artists new players search for wouldn't be immediately playable for them - but apart from that being some motivation to become better, I think you could nudge new players into playing appropriately difficult maps by well placed highlighted sets or some algorithm to suggest maps based on their previous plays.

TL;DR: Total number of maps would increase, as well as the growth rate of the mapping community, since it'd be easier accessible for new mappers. New artists/genres would be mapped by new people trying to get their music into the game - often with hard or normal diffs (since easier rankable). New players will more likely find ranked songs they're looking for.
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