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[Proposal] Spread requirements based on song length

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Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
4:30 sets have been falling more and more out of favour over the years, and now people are even starting to use r3 music box extensions to avoid making them, i think it's time to address the issue with current spread rules.

4:30 sets require triple the workload of tvsize sets and quadruple the workload of marathons for both the set host and any bn checking them. it's no surprise they've fallen out of favour. longer sets are also generally less played and less popular, especially among newer players, so requiring a full set for 4:30 songs is impractical for mappers/modders and excessive for players since those lowdiff will mostly go unplayed.

but ofc just changing marathon length min requirements to 4min or 4:30 wouldn't rly fix the main issue of people extending mp3s to avoid full sets. so instead i think we should have a more dynamic spread system.

idk about these exact numbers but something like this:
  1. if the drain time is <3:30 your set's lowest diff must be normal or lower
  2. if the drain time is 3:30-4:15 your set's lowest diff must be hard or lower
  3. if the drain time is 4:15-5min your set's lowest diff must be insane or lower
  4. >5min can be anything


this would greatly reduced workload for mappers and modders, cater longer maps to the players actually interested in playing them, and help reduce a lot of the mp3 extension workaround stuff that nobody rly likes to see.

p sure this has been proposed before as well, and was a well-received idea, but im reposting here

EDIT: this gained traction, and you can read the full draft here: https://gist.github.com/Okorin/190bc363 ... 919eb8e1cf
Shohei Ohtani

UndeadCapulet wrote:

4:30 sets have been falling more and more out of favour over the years, and now people are even starting to use r3 music box extensions to avoid making them, i think it's time to address the issue with current spread rules.
This is just fucking stupid that people are doing this lmao. Like it's rankable I guess but man this is just insanely silly. There was sort of something brought up in the other discussion about meme maps where like technically yes you can rank silly stuff but at some point you just sort of lose respect for yourself.

4:30 sets require triple the workload of tvsize sets and quadruple the workload of marathons for both the set host and any bn checking them. it's no surprise they've fallen out of favour. longer sets are also generally less played and less popular, especially among newer players, so requiring a full set for 4:30 songs is impractical for mappers/modders and excessive for players since those lowdiff will mostly go unplayed.
True. It's been problematic to rank 4 minute maps for WAY longer than now. Even this map was a bitch to get modded, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/259187 and it eventually sort of just graved because people just did not want to spend the time looking at a 4 minute long map. The map itself was actually sort of created as pushback towards the fact that people only wanted to map TV size maps and such (a sentiment that has changed since I mapped this 5 years ago).

but ofc just changing marathon length min requirements to 4min or 4:30 wouldn't rly fix the main issue of people extending mp3s to avoid full sets. so instead i think we should have a more dynamic spread system.
Seems about right. Loctav would often pull out the slippery slope thing whenever people would get mad about spread. It's kind of why 4:55 maps couldn't get approved, because "oh man you're so dumb and fat soon 4:50 maps are going to get ranked and soon we will have no easy diffs"

(Skipping the paragraph with the actual system since I already talked about that).

this would greatly reduced workload for mappers and modders, cater longer maps to the players actually interested in playing them, and help reduce a lot of the mp3 extension workaround stuff that nobody rly likes to see

p sure this has been proposed before as well, and was a well-received idea, but im reposting here
ya.

I didn't mean to delete my old post but I did so oops
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
cdfa silly
_handholding
tbh i kind of agree, based on the length of time a beginner has the ability/interest to play

To fix CDFA's issue maybe word it along the lines of "3-4 mins lowest diff cannot be insane, 4-5 mins lowest diff can not be extra"?
Shiguma
100% agree with this, because if you think about it, what new player wants to play a 4-5 minute long song? With the simplified rhythm, by 3-4 minutes a new player is probably bored of effectively playing the same thing over and over again.

Making a dynamic spread rule for longer songs makes sense to me in almost every aspect, and I would hope this motivates people to map 4 minute sets more often
Icekalt
That 4-5 minutes sets only need an insane is pretty unfavorable for me since even semi new player cant play anything over 4 mins since for the most mappers, the most disliked difficult to make is a "Hard". Like my suggestion would be that maybe:

<200 seconds: spread rules like b4
>200 seconds: spread needs an hard
>300 seconds (marathon): can be anything

since 200 seconds is 3:20, it seems pretty fair for player and mapper that after here you dont need a normal anymore. Since after the previous RC change for lowest SR in your set it is possible to have even a 2,4sr diff as lowest diff so imo no need to change that for below 200 seconds.

That would be my idea since your idea is pretty discouraged against even semi new players so i proposed this instead ^^
Stack
Would also reduce the increasing amount of audio editing that is going on to reach the 5 min mark so I'd love this
Synitri
When looking at proposals like this, it's important to look at both sides.

From a mapper's perspective this change might be welcome in the short term, but from a player's perspective, restricting songs to solely higher diffs because mappers don't want to bother making full sets is not that good of a thing.

As an example, most songs from genres such as rock/metal are 3:something minutes in length. That range spreads way further than songs that are over 5 minutes (the current marathon length). Now obviously, most mappers that would map these songs wouldn't bother making the lower diffs anymore, essentially restricting the song choice completely for newer players. That's the main problem I have with this.

Obviously, as a mapper myself, I would enjoy not having to deal with the struggle of mapping lower difficulties everytime I want to push my set for rank. However, I don't think it's fair for the playerbase that isn't capable yet of playing higher difficulties to restrict the amount of songs they can play so drastically. Perhaps the direction to go isn't necessarily cutting off all the lower difficulties, but rather making the dfificulty spread these maps need to have less dense (so for example, 2sr > 4sr > 6sr is acceptable or what not.
Shohei Ohtani
Also if you really want to go hard with this, you could always just consider implementing the idea that you have to map the full spread of all songs, but then don't have to map the full length for all of the difficulties.

Because that's the reason spread rules were put in the first place, because people were super worried about newer players not having a lot of content to play because everyone would just sort of end up doing stuff like this: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/48775 (There's better examples but this is the only one I can remember off the top of my head), where newer players would only get like 1 verse and kiai while the other diffs would get more.

However, I feel (and have generally always felt, from what I can recall) that it's not really problematic for easy players to have shorter experiences on these longer songs, since they are developing the endurance necessary and might not be able to play 4 minutes of map. Plus it gives incentive for replayability since you have to keep on working to be able to hear the full song.

and if you wanna go SUPER far back you could always just go back to pre-spread rules where all you had to do to get approval was just say you were going for approval like: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/48775 ;)
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
current numbers excluding certain genres more than others is a fair point, but like i said the numbers can be fine-tuned as needed

still dont rly think we'd needneed a normal for most 3mins but if a bunch of people think otherwise i can adjust

and addressing voli's edit:
personally think EHX or NIU sets would be weird for newer players, it's more intuitive to say "expect these longer maps to be harder", but if more people are in favour of that than current proposal i won't object, still achieves the main goal in the end
Nikakis
''and help reduce a lot of the mp3 extension workaround stuff that nobody rly likes to see.''

tbh this is subjective, don't take the r3 hating thing as a whole agreement for the osu community because they would surely exist some r3 fans out there. With your logic then, any 5 min song remixes can be unrankable because they are extending the original length of the song. So stop getting triggered by the r3 extension thing, osu isn't a music police. Some variety is fun for the game.
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
@nikakis this wouldn't be making r3 edits unrankable, but p much only reason people are doing them rn is to avoid spread, not bc they rly like how it sounds. if they want to keep doing it bc they like r3 they are welcome to continue
Cheri
I would rank every buto-otome song if they do this 100% agree

I would still love to make spreads for certain songs but some songs is so discouraging to map (referring to songs capable of making 6* - 7* maps/high bpm) simply because you have to worry about making 5+ diffs afterwards which is very time consuming even with gds (and that isn't even including mods)

While I would love if it happen like the proposal as a mapper but as a player I think 4-5 mins needs a Hard difficulty seems to be a better idea than an a Insane since I myself enjoy playing 4min maps and can't play many insane difficulties at that length
Okoratu
Insane and up are the minority of players in this game

dropping that amount of content for people to get into the game on based on recent maps doesnt make any sense, there's a reason why the ranked section is sorted by newest first, it assumes that new maps and recent songs will get people into the game lol
_handholding
@Voli whilst I see your concerns I also think it's worth pointing out the correlation of interest between length of the song and difficulty of the map. Many other rhythm games see 2 mins as the length of time that is most engaging, for easy diffs especially. Not many new players actually go for something that approaches 5 mins with how un-engaging it gets towards the end. I do think the numbers would need tweaking if this actually went through though, it seems a bit more on the low side of things. Also your suggestion seems quite nice as well
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
redrafted the numbers so 3:30 sets need a hard, that number can go up further if needed.

also oko the content is getting lowered anyway bc of marathon extensions and people just mapping 4min songs less, this only increases the content for the game by making all sets closer to the same amount of work
Noffy
I think if anything CDFA's idea is far better. That way you're not totally shutting newer players out of enjoying songs they like, but you're not forcing a mapper to make four 4 minute difficulties either.

I mean, heck, the rule that all difficulties need to be around the same length was actually removed months ago. So take advantage of that instead.

this rule is gone wrote:

Your difficulties should all end at the same spot. Having a fully-mapped Normal/Hard and a half-mapped Easy just looks sloppy/lazy. A full Easy may look boring to you, but not to a player that can't handle the harder difficulties.
I mean this one btw, but a lot of people still point it out because it appears in modding assistant because modding assistant hasn't been updated.
pishifat
my thoughts on this have basically been said by other people here already

as a mapper, it's nice to have more equal work to rank longer maps compared to shorter ones. low diffs are boring to make anyway

if i were running osu and had i an interest in expanding its audience, i'd think this kind of change isnt very good. out of ranked maps selection, there would be a smaller fraction of content available for lowest level of players, alienating the potential future of hte game or something along those lines. the idea that new players are already alienated with 5+min songs, so being lenient with other lengths should be fine sounds more like a reason to remove approval from game dev perspective (which i'm not interested in doing).

so there's benefit for mapper quality of life, but maybe not for osu in general imo

@noffy im pretty sure the "you must map up to 80% of your map's mp3" rule counteracts that
Asaiga

pishifat wrote:

so there's benefit for mapper quality of life, but maybe not for osu in general imo
Natsu
Reducing content for new and casual players is never good for a game.
Shohei Ohtani

pishifat wrote:

@noffy im pretty sure the "you must map up to 80% of your map's mp3" rule counteracts that
well looks like were gonna have to change that then
Noffy

CDFA wrote:

pishifat wrote:

@noffy im pretty sure the "you must map up to 80% of your map's mp3" rule counteracts that
well looks like were gonna have to change that then
it doesn't specify it has to be mapped on every difficulty just that it must be mapped in general (I literally re-read that rule before posting to be sure). If it's mapped only in insane, it's still mapped.
seems like there's a loophole here if the intent is to in part disallow 1m 2m 3m 4m ENHI draintime spreads.
Linada

Natsu wrote:

Reducing content for new and casual players is never good for a game.
yea but ppl gonna extand 4:xx songs with R3 music boxes so it's even worse imo
i like thoses R3 music boxes but it's so lame... i'd rather have the song having its chorus extanded or smth

and having HIX spreads isn't that bad imo
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
chatlog i had w/ pishi, highly encourage anyone worried about new players to read through it:
UndeadCapulet - Today at 4:40 PM
i feel like people arent reading my posts at all
4min diffs are already not appealing for most new players
making it so they arent required isnt lowering content for new players
its just raising content for higher level players who actually like to play longer maps(edited)
your point about “fraction of content” is the closest to fair
but like
4:30 normal is draining and also kinda boring for newer players
theyd prefer to just play shorter maps
even in like game design perspective
you dont give new players big longer levels
they get eased into it
as they get more comfortable w/ mechanics
then you can start lengthening the levels and challenges
pishi - Today at 4:47 PM
that makes sense
it also makes me think time would be better spent making 2 minute maps instead of ones that have less general appeal
so im not sure id change stance
UndeadCapulet - Today at 4:50 PM
wait but
if what i said makes sense
then giving more incentives to make longer maps so more skilled players can challenge themselves
should also make sense .-.
pishi - Today at 4:53 PM
more experienced players playing longer maps than new players makes sense
catering content towards smaller audience not so much
from mr game running guy perspective that is
as a mapper i'd want more than anything to just get 1 diff things ranked without any bs extra content
UndeadCapulet - Today at 5:00 PM
idk i dont think its catering to smaller audience
if anything the current cut/extend meta is ostracizing experienced players
with less engaging content
progression spreadbalance just makes it so every skill level has more good stuff for them(edited)
new players will have all the tvsizes they could ask for like always
(and w/ current numbers theyll have 3min maps too)
they dont need 4mins tho, so those can be geared toward hard/insane players(edited)
pishi - Today at 5:04 PM
that doesnt account for people who would be ranking a full tv size thing, but instead opt to do a h/i set for a longer song
with the proposal, some amount of people will shift their attention away from making low diffs
so less new player stuff overall
UndeadCapulet - Today at 5:05 PM
at most the req difference would be
NAHIX for tvsize
vs HIX for 3:30-4:30(edited)
vs IX for 4:30
some people will stop being tvsize only mappers but
theyll still be making a lot of H icons
and we’re never gonna run out of tvsizes
drop in tvsizes will be small if any, increase in fullvers will be way bigger(edited)
bc fullver mappers wont have to spend so much time with each set
thats where the main increase will come from
not tvsize mappers switching over

i feel like natsu/oko/etc. just aren't reading my posts at all atm, bc if they did they wouldn't be saying this is lowering content for new players. 4min diffs are not appropriate for new players. it's not content for them. if anything those types of diffs will be a turnoff bc of how draining it can be to play them. this proposal doesn't hinder newer players in any way, it will only be adding content for hard+ players.
CXu
I'd say add a minimum amount of diffs required for the spread as well in some way, so say minimum 3 diffs for maps <4:00, and minimum 2 diffs for maps <5:00. (Not sure how this would affect those Easy+Normal sets only though).

If you're mapping a 4min ballad you can get away with only a hard since Insane/Extra might not fit well with the song, and Easy/Normal aren't required.
This should make it so that easier difficulties for newer players are still created whenever slower songs that would fit lower diffs better are mapped as well.
Okoratu

UndeadCapulet wrote:

chatlog i had w/ pishi, highly encourage anyone worried about new players to read through it:
i feel like natsu/oko/etc. just aren't reading my posts at all atm, bc if they did they wouldn't be saying this is lowering content for new players. 4min diffs are not appropriate for new players. it's not content for them. if anything those types of diffs will be a turnoff bc of how draining it can be to play them. this proposal doesn't hinder newer players in any way, it will only be adding content for hard+ players.
i read that part but i idisagree with the logic you use to arrive at that fact that longer songs are not content for new players
if you start the game up and listen to music before finding this game you will notice that most edm and general songs are around 3:30 ~ 4:30 length (hint: the FA section contains mostly longer songs) because it's a common length of music.

Would be a shame if you start out the game and search for your favourite music just to find that "it's too long to require a diff for you"
Caput Mortuum
This feels like forcing new players to play exclusively anime openings/game songs tbh
New players care more about the song itself rather than the content

i can also see some mappers in the future saying 3:30 is too long
CXu
So about the argument that it's less content for newer players. The current state of things is less content for ALL players, as people are less inclined to map these maps that are 4:30min long if they have to spend that much more effort compared to extending the song to 5min, or just mapping some other song.

Doing something like this would give more incentive to map these longer maps for mappers who would maybe otherwise not map these songs at all, or greatly increase the amount of songs they map in this length range.

As for the details, it's obviously something to discuss in terms of what would be appropriate cut-offs, limits, appropriate spreads (would EHX be acceptable for example) etc., but I don't think it's a bad idea overall to suggest something like this.

As for the "too long to require a diff for you" thing, that already happens with approval maps, and as more people go with extending songs, or cutting them down, you're still not getting the required diff for low level players in the length range that is being discussed.
Okoratu
i know im saying i'd prefer that over the possibility that there's even more stuff that is inaccessible to new players trying to get into the game or the average player
MaridiuS
Hey those were my actual thoughts today when i opnened sotarks freedom dive, I fully support this.
Mentai
i don't know.. it's kind of refreshing and rewarding when i map a full length set of songs i like, because it's a rare thing to see in osu! currently, and i tend to really like mappers who map things that way too.

i'm a pretty big fan of mapping lower difficulties because no one seems to care about them anymore in terms of quality, all that matters is it is a reasonable spread for the higher diffs to be workable for the set. i think this is just going further down the hole of "why bother making quality lower diffs if my extra diff gets all the attention" and whatnot

i know i'm in the minority for this, this would probably be a happy change for most mappers, but i just think at some point lower diffs will just like, be absent from most sets lol
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