[Proposal] Spread requirements based on song length

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Nao Tomori
That is because the majority of plays period are on short maps lol. Graphs with proportion of plays per diff would be more useful imo.

Still agree with proposal tho,
type 1 if cute

x86 wrote:

bor wrote:

because people who are bad at the game tend to not care about length of beatmap for the most part, they just end up playing their favorite music.
How do you know? 4 min maps require a lot of stamina just to play once.
>

bor wrote:

Also I remember when i tried to get better at the game, at some point I would player the longer easier maps to try and create a sort of stamina or real consistency lol, and without longer songs having lower diffs to them that kind of approach would no longer be possible.
Similarly saying I'm not saying that lower diffs wouldn't exist anymore, but think about how newer players get into this game, they don't spend 15 minutes looking for the perfect map for them to play. They look at the recently ranked section and just download some song they might recognize, or they search for the songs they like to see if there is something with their SR to it. So having lower difficulties end up being much more sparse just makes it to where they can't just find that one recently ranked map that has a diff they can play (given the possibility stated prior).

bor wrote:

I believe if you guys move forward with this there should be an incentive or safety net for these lower difficulty players otherwise there exists a possibility that lower difficulties will become arbitrarily extinct and the player base for this game will no longer grow.
There is no need to be so fatalistic. The vast majority of easy/normal plays are already on short maps.
>being fatalistic? that's no argument against what I've said. you shouldn't restrict a playerbase you are trying to appeal to
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
thank you x86 and kwk for all your numbers, y'all are awesome <3

@bor pls dont just repeat the same disputed things others have already said unless you have something further to contribute

i agree with others that ratios would be nicer but those numbers already tell a lot, hards seem valuable for 4min length and normals are almost not played at all for that duration

and expert players are very clearly interested in longer maps compared to every other skill level

which are pretty much the claims that have been made in the proposal

going to try to reach out to eph or someone for some more data, gonna try to filter out retry spam and the like
Sieg

UndeadCapulet wrote:

i agree with others that ratios would be nicer but those numbers already tell a lot, hards seem valuable for 4min length and normals are almost not played at all for that duration
From the graph I can see that pc on normals for 4:00 - 4:30 min is a bit more than pc on hards for 4:30 - 5:00 and even on insanes for 5:30, how is that - almost not played?
CXu

x86 wrote:

Sieg wrote:

Can you make graphs with 150- excluded and play count values unified for better visual presentation?
I'm not a fan of juxtaposed bars so I've used stacked bars here.



sdafsf wrote:

im wondering wether this data is graphed against the number of maps there are for each lengths or if its total numbers. because that would change how to view this data significantly
To clarify, I am subsetting every ranked/loved standard map on every combination of hitlength (30 s) interval and difficulty, and then summing the playcount for all those maps.
It's like really late so this might make no sense at all, but could you scale these in terms of amount of maps in each subset?
It doesn't really help to know that there're more plays on easy diffs on shorter maps than longer maps, since that's probably going to be the case anyway because there're way more shorter maps overall. More interesting would be to see if the proportion of easy diff plays goes down or not as we reach 3-4min long songs.
x86

CXu wrote:

It's like really late so this might make no sense at all, but could you scale these in terms of amount of maps in each subset?
It doesn't really help to know that there're more plays on easy diffs on shorter maps than longer maps, since that's probably going to be the case anyway because there're way more shorter maps overall. More interesting would be to see if the proportion of easy diff plays goes down or not as we reach 3-4min long songs.
Which subset - the song length categories, or the diff spread categories, or both?

And what do you mean scale by amount of maps in each subset? Do you mean something like average (or median) plays / map?
I think it's difficult to extrapolate if more maps of a certain length and difficulty existed, they would get more played or less played. I'm assuming that significantly fewer mappers will map 4 min full spreads, but the proportion who will stop is also up in the air.* I'm tempted to make an informal survey of users, something along these lines:

1. What's your rank?
1a. What difficulty of map do you play most often?
2-4. Do you think there are enough Easy/Normal/Hard 4 minute maps?
5-7. Would you mind fewer Easy/Normal/Hard 4 minute maps? (*the thing is, we don't know how much fewer)

I frequent /r/osugame and surveys there get a lot of responses. I assume they're mostly representative.
zev
looking at the bigger picture I think the current state with approval isn't well either at bringing longer songs available to newer players.

i'd say if this something like this was set in place there would be more incentive to create lower difficulties for players for those longer songs, instead of just not being mapped at all or extended to 5 minutes, by the nature of lower difficulties there will be always some mappers doing them because they are so easy and faster to make and to judge for BN's. the safety net is the modders/mapper's laziness lol, considering that this proposal is kind of meant for those who don't want to map a whole spread for longer songs ranging around 4:00 < 5:00 minutes.

That being said I think the pros and cons overweight of what we currently have, would be nice if we can atleast move on so those songs ranging around that length also get some love, we can always improve things further from there.
CXu

x86 wrote:

CXu wrote:

It's like really late so this might make no sense at all, but could you scale these in terms of amount of maps in each subset?
It doesn't really help to know that there're more plays on easy diffs on shorter maps than longer maps, since that's probably going to be the case anyway because there're way more shorter maps overall. More interesting would be to see if the proportion of easy diff plays goes down or not as we reach 3-4min long songs.
Which subset - the song length categories, or the diff spread categories, or both?

And what do you mean scale by amount of maps in each subset? Do you mean something like average (or median) plays / map?
I think it's difficult to extrapolate if more maps of a certain length and difficulty existed, they would get more played or less played. I'm assuming that significantly fewer mappers will map 4 min full spreads, but the proportion who will stop is also up in the air.* I'm tempted to make an informal survey of users, something along these lines:

1. What's your rank?
1a. What difficulty of map do you play most often?
2-4. Do you think there are enough Easy/Normal/Hard 4 minute maps?
5-7. Would you mind fewer Easy/Normal/Hard 4 minute maps? (*the thing is, we don't know how much fewer)

I frequent /r/osugame and surveys there get a lot of responses. I assume they're mostly representative.
I mean like, since there're more maps in general around 1:30min in length, then there's bound to also be more plays on those maps (assuming that most people don't go retrying the same maps a billion times on longer songs), so the fact that there're more plays on easy diffs in the 1:30min length compared to those at 4:30min length is to be expected regardless of if new players tend to play longer maps or not. What I want to know is how the trend of new players' amount of plays change as the length of the song changes, in comparison to other diffs. If the amount of plays on Hard diffs decreases at a similar rate to Easy diffs (so 10000 plays on hard 1:30 -> 1000 plays on hard 4:30 would be the same a 1000 plays on easy 1:30 -> 100 plays on easy 4:30), then it might just be a general trend with length in general, and not that new players in particular dislike longer songs.

Maybe it doesn't work like that; I don't statistics.
defiance
yes
MBomb
whilst i don't particularly like this idea, i'd like a change to how the times are done if this was ever done

i think lowering the effort needed in these situations isn't actually great because in almost all rhythm games, the optimal length of a song is around 2 minutes (give or take about 30s), yet these rules (and even current ones) actively encourage mapping longer songs because you do a lot less drain.

i would generally say

below 4 minutes - requires a normal
below 6 minutes - requires a hard
below 8 minutes - requires an insane

these numbers could be adjusted a bit, but it's done with the mindset of at least giving a "marathon" map more total drain than a full spread tv size

i have previously been told my thoughts on marathon maps are overly harsh though so eh
Bubblun
CDFA's idea looked good. tbh I never agreed with the change of having to map the whole mp3 for every difficulty as most songs past 3 minutes are usually repeated or at least repeated with slight variation in lyrics, instruments, etc. The only difference between Section A and Section B of a song is the time at which it takes place. (Plus I think progression in drain-time is interesting, just look at https://osu.ppy.sh/s/20237 xp)

Overall I like how we have graphs showing us exactly what level of players play what length of maps, I think this proposal has a better chance at going through because of that.

Looks amazing, can't wait to see where this goes xp
x86
I looked at kwk's data and decided to use only values from maps ranked/loved 2015 or later. So the graphs will look a little different. Most noticeably, marathon maps are getting a higher proportion of plays for recent maps.



Per CXu's suggestion, I've graphed the average plays/map for each hitlength/difficulty category.

In my opinion, total playcount is a better measure of how much each category is getting played, but you can argue long Easy/Normal/Hard maps are getting pretty high playcounts still.
Mentai
again goes with my theory that every map (that isn't the new 1 diff length) that should just require a hard of some sort since it seems that's where the majority of plays are, thus technically, the least amount of alienation.

for example, if you need 3 diffs, you can do Hard Insane Extra or Normal Hard Extra
if you need 2, you can do Hard Extra or whatever

i hope people don't keep ignoring this xd
DNR

Mentai wrote:

again goes with my theory that every map (that isn't the new 1 diff length) that should just require a hard of some sort since it seems that's where the majority of plays are, thus technically, the least amount of alienation.

for example, if you need 3 diffs, you can do Hard Insane Extra or Normal Hard Extra
if you need 2, you can do Hard Extra or whatever

i hope people don't keep ignoring this xd
"Let's reduce alienation by just not having a decent spread of difficulties."

The plan that you're proposing sort of makes it into "let's only have difficulties that fit who we think are playing the most", which is problematic because that in itself alienates a LOT of people, which seems counter-intuitive to what you're planning.

Which is why I sort of have my idea up (I've been busy as fuck so I haven't really been able to keep up with this thread) that there are STILL spread requirements, but that you're not required to make sort of these super long and not intuitive 4 minute Easies, but rather you have something that is more appropriate for the demographic that is playing these diffs (which is a shorter difficulty that plays a reasonable amount of the song).
abraker
I once proposed an idea somewhere where you would have slots for how many extreme, insane, hard, normal, and easy diffs you can rank. The slots you have for higher diffs would depend on how many lower diffs you ranked and their length.

This can solve the alienation problem CDFA is mentioning.

For example, if you rank 1 easy diff 5 min long, then that would open a slot for one of the hard, insane, extreme diffs.
If you rank 1 easy diff that is 1 min 30 sec long, then that would open a slot for hard and insane diff, and it would require another diff on same or different map to open a slot for extreme diff

I am not sure what the best combinations for slot unlocking be, so it would take some discussion to find what is best.
DNR

abraker wrote:

I once proposed an idea somewhere where you would have slots for how many extreme, insane, hard, normal, and easy diffs you can rank. The slots you have for higher diffs would depend on how many lower diffs you ranked and their length.

This can solve the alienation problem CDFA is mentioning.

For example, if you rank 1 easy diff 5 min long, then that would open a slot for one of the hard, insane, extreme diffs.
If you rank 1 easy diff that is 1 min 30 sec long, then that would open a slot for hard and insane diff, and it would require another diff on same or different map to open a slot for extreme diff

I am not sure what the best combinations for slot unlocking be, so it would take some discussion to find what is best.
no lmao.

That's way too complex and unnecessary for something that can be solved in a MUCH easier way by saying "Map a full spread but the shorter diffs can be shorter than the harder diffs"
Mentai

CDFA wrote:

Mentai wrote:

again goes with my theory that every map (that isn't the new 1 diff length) that should just require a hard of some sort since it seems that's where the majority of plays are, thus technically, the least amount of alienation.

for example, if you need 3 diffs, you can do Hard Insane Extra or Normal Hard Extra
if you need 2, you can do Hard Extra or whatever

i hope people don't keep ignoring this xd
"Let's reduce alienation by just not having a decent spread of difficulties."

The plan that you're proposing sort of makes it into "let's only have difficulties that fit who we think are playing the most", which is problematic because that in itself alienates a LOT of people, which seems counter-intuitive to what you're planning.

Which is why I sort of have my idea up (I've been busy as fuck so I haven't really been able to keep up with this thread) that there are STILL spread requirements, but that you're not required to make sort of these super long and not intuitive 4 minute Easies, but rather you have something that is more appropriate for the demographic that is playing these diffs (which is a shorter difficulty that plays a reasonable amount of the song).
what? lol

this is in the universe of actually removing difficulty requirements. i'm, actually 100% against this proposition, i would rather map full spreads because it's a rewarding experience, personally.

the worst part of doing these things i literally because of spread, like you'll have to make a huge spread still if you want your 6* extra diff, and that's not really reducing workload in the way the people seemingly want it to be done. so having at least the base line where every mapset requires the most played diff out of all song lengths and not have to map 3 extras to fit a spread seems way more reasonable to me than anything else thus far
DNR
That's really great that you enjoy mapping full spreads. I do too. But that doesn't mean that the ranking criteria has to fit your personal beliefs of what is the most satisfying things to do. Otherwise you know my ass would be all over the RC adding shit that I believe in mapping :P. Ranking Criteria is just the baseline set of rules that people have to follow, and people are free to do whatever gives them satisfaction after that.

I don't really think that the goal of this is to really reduce workload in the way that you're looking at it. This proposition, at least the way I'm viewing it, is in the vain of making lower difficulties more applicable to newer players who want to play a song that might be too long for them to handle, or for mappers that aren't able to dish out 4 minutes of content when working with simplified rhythms. Something where you're trying to just get rid of spread requirements is pretty silly, because that's alienating people that still play easies and normals and such (as well as people that may play insanes if you map something like an HX spread, for instance).

Like spread is still important for making the songs applicable to the largest group of people, so I disagree with you wanting to get rid of spread requirements, but I feel that we need to be able to provide content that is more appropriate to the skill and developmental level of people playing these difficulties.
abraker

CDFA wrote:

That's way too complex and unnecessary for something that can be solved in a MUCH easier way by saying "Map a full spread but the shorter diffs can be shorter than the harder diffs"
From the mapper's perspective that's great!

From the player's perspective that's like giving a newbie a 31 key toy piano while giving the better player an actual piano and putting them in one room to compare. You can learn to play things on the toy piano, but it's mockery and no more than a joke.

I am not in favor of cutting a difficulty shorter than another, and would put it as the last option.
DNR

abraker wrote:

CDFA wrote:

That's way too complex and unnecessary for something that can be solved in a MUCH easier way by saying "Map a full spread but the shorter diffs can be shorter than the harder diffs"
From the mapper's perspective that's great!

From the player's perspective that's like giving a newbie a 31 key toy piano while giving the better player better the actual piano and putting them in one room to compare. You can learn to play things on the toy piano, but it's mockery and no more than a joke.

I am not in favor of cutting a difficulty shorter than another, and would put it as the last option.
Well it's obviously not infantilizing the player.

Instead of using that comparison, instead say that you buy a person learning piano a 61 key electric keyboard, and then upgrade them to the full 88 key piano as they get more skilled and outgrow the instrument.

There is no real need for the piano student to have access to all of this extra range, all of the pedals, weighted keys, etc. At this stage of the game, they're leaning how to read music, how to identify notes, how to play with multiple hands, etc. They're building a foundation and it's in the best interest of the teacher to give them the appropriate tools that they need to become successful, instead of just throwing a professional instrument at them. If they HAVE a professional instrument starting out, that's fantastic, but certain instruments are appropriate for skill development.

That's why student horns exist. I played on a Jean Baptiste small shank trombone when I was first learning trombone, and it was easy enough to play for my 5th grade self to play. It didn't have a trigger, didn't have a large shank mouthpiece, and was relatively a very basic horn, but it served the purpose of teaching me the fundamentals of how to play the instrument, before I then decided to upgrade to my Yamaha Xeno (rip in peace though, sold it to buy my Miraphone 1291BBb Tuba.)

With beatmapping, it's the same way. You're not producing less quality CONTENT, but rather you're putting the content in a sort of framework and level that the players can more tangibly handle, and that they player would most benefit from. Having a 4 minute easy really develops nothing (Except maybe endurance, but endurance is moreso built through consistent clicking over time rather than just pure drain time), so it seems pointless to have it drone on for that long when there are better avenues for development.
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