there was a no SB, but never a no skin and hitsound placed in a map can not be overwritten afaik

Right now, if you try to set custom hitsounds (taiko-normal-hitclap.wav and so on) for a Taiko diff, it gets overwritten if you check the "Always use Taiko Skin on Taiko Maps" option. Sakura was suggesting to kill this overwriting iirc.

Loctav wrote:

Well, HakuNoKaemi said a valid point, that "allowing custom hitsounds as long as you can override them with your own skin" is something I can accept as "midground" or compromise.

I was opposing that hard because iirc Sakura said, that the skin should not override the hitsounds (anymore).
In osu!standard some similar midground was achieved (NoSkin/NoSB mod? dunno anymore) - and you can also enforce your own skin's cursor.

There is also "force skin" in standard, for certain maps (e.g Cirno TAG4 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25739).

this is my last post for this topic, say I was to make a taiko with custom samples I would want my map to be heard the way I intended it to be made if I didn't I wouldn't of taken the time to add custom sets I took the time to set the beats and place the notes don't I deserve to have my creation played they way I wanted it to be? ztrot out I'm gonna go be productive.

those wrote:

There is also "force skin" in standard, for certain maps (e.g Cirno TAG4 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25739).

Oh really? How to activate it? Well, this is way too offtopic, but you may introduce this to me via ingame PM, lol.

ztrot wrote:

this is my last post for this topic, say I was to make a taiko with custom samples I would want my map to be heard the way I intended it to be made if I didn't I wouldn't of taken the time to add custom sets I took the time to set the beats and place the notes don't I deserve to have my creation played they way I wanted it to be? ztrot out I'm gonna go be productive.

if we assume that we use the said compromise about allowing overwriting by the own custom skin, why not? Me by myself is okay with the compromise. We may should recall the others if they agree with this or something similiar.

osu!standard allows the beatmap to force skins that the mapper chooses. In terms of customization for either game mode, skin in osu!standard is synonymous to hitsounds in Taiko.

No, it's not that simple. For one, you can skin Taiko visually as well, which is more like the equivalent to standard skins. And secondly, Hitsounds are a much more integral part of the Taiko game mode than they are of standard osu! mode. Remember how you can force your own cursor and slider style over the map's skin? Yes, that even overrides forced skins like on Cirno. That is way more similar to what hitsounds represent in Taiko.

Loctav wrote:

We don't say we own that game mode, we are trying to explain you our reasons for our doings.

The purpose of rules is to prevent the game from breaking, glitching or make it unreadable, not to restrict the mappers. Although from the looks of it you didn't read at all my previous post.

And all i've seen from you is that you say it was impossible for YOU to play with different hitsounds. When you guys start throwing personal opinions on the matter it breaks up your whole argument.

You want me to look through all your posts? fine then i'll do it again:

p/1543741

Loctav wrote:

Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far.

This isn't a reason to not remove a rule, because it will make it Better not worse.

Loctav wrote:

We are simulating and INSTRUMENT.

I already told you in #lounge that it could be restricted to drum sounds to not sound awkward.

Loctav wrote:

Fill it with content, show us examples where it might work.

No, the thing is that you must show us examples of why it's bad to play with custom hitsounds, so that we can see how it breaks the game.

p/1543865

Loctav wrote:

The suggestion of "possible improvement" is a suggestion of "possible mess" in our eyes.

Modding, it may be true most modders dont pay that much attention to how playable the patterns are, however that doesn't mean we are diff towards the hitsounds being used.

p/1543865 (I've already commented on the "Distracting part" so)

Loctav wrote:

but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.

What determines what to press is the map, the hitsounds just determine what you hear from hitting.

p/1544008

Loctav wrote:

Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.

I don't get this, it just takes a don and a kat press to know their sounds, you're allowed to hit them before the song even begins in case you didn't know.

Loctav wrote:

It bothers me, because it causes no improvement and pure distraction.

Isn't this what the majority of osu!standard players complain about as well with skins and backgrounds?

p/1544476
[quote"Loctav"]The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.[/quote] Yes, but that's what is intended, to play the maps as the mappers want, not as the mappers are forced to by rules from taiko players. If players dictated rules to mapping, custom skinning per-map would have been gone a long time ago.

Loctav wrote:

And since even the mapper agree with blocking custom hitsounds (despite those), the 'enforcement' argument is invalid, since it always appears in each situation somewhere.

Ah well, but because something isn't enforced doesn't mean you have to use it, we arent making a rule that says that you must use custom hitsounds yet you guys are treating us like we do. All we are proposing is to have the option of using them or not depending on what the mapper wants.

p/1544928

Loctav wrote:

I am really pissed since Sakura and those try to get a change to a folk to heavily is against it.

Again, we are not forcing the use of custom hitsounds, we just want the option of using them or not...

Loctav wrote:

And don't come along with your osz2 stuff. Seriously, hindering people to delete gameplay elements to make everyone play on an equal base is WAY different from allowing stuff, that brings out only shitmaps.

Again, examples please, heck, you'd need to show me that's a 0% chance that it will work to be able to ban it, so you'd need quite... a lot of examples.

Loctav wrote:

Trust us, we discussed this for so long, and we know why we decided this.

I've never seen such discussion, enlighten me towards where it is so i can see what your reasonings behind banning it are because so far i see no reason to ban all of the custom hitsounded maps.

p/1545110

Loctav wrote:

Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.

Again, you guys need to provide examples that it doesnt work in 100% of the cases, if it works in even ONE case, is good enough to turn the rule into a guideline.

Loctav wrote:

Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music.

Yeah i agree it contains more art than Taiko, but in the sense that you can make pretty patterns on the screen with your notes, the art with hitsounds from Standard can easily be transfered to Taiko, unless you midnlessly put notes all the time, then yeah there is no art.

Loctav wrote:

As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong.

Is not about focusing on something different than the drumbeat, however dont all taiko maps do that already? most drumbeats i hear on songs are at 1/1 or 1/2 constant, also im never saying to not use drum hitsounds, just dont force taiko sounds.

p/1545154

Loctav wrote:

Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.

This gives me more reason to allow custom hitsounds.

Loctav wrote:

If I want to play DragonForce with Kongas, let me do that. But don't force me to do so.

You go convince peppy to allow a hitsound toggle so it's all fair for everyone, since standard players have to play with the mapper's intended hitsounds. Of course i agree with this, and Taiko mappers should be able to choose their hitsounds.

Loctav wrote:

Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?

This would make sense if this was the case for standard too, but players have to bear with what the mapper intended, so why not Taiko? oh in fact they dont have to bear anyways since there's a toggle that forces all of the Taiko Skin!, freedom for the mappers to map however they want, you arent forced to play a taiko map you don't like.

Loctav wrote:

-Link to peppy's post- I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here.

Yeah... MIDDLE GROUND, so far i only see one sided ground.

p/1545194

Loctav wrote:

Because I oppose giving mappers the freedom the players will lack of.

Then why dont you go create a thread to ban the use of custom skins and custom hitsounds, and even Storyboards for standard, since that annoys players and they always complain about them? I dont see you doing that, oh right, it wouldnt happen no matter how many reasonings you give right? Just stop dropping the Player's Freedom > Mapper's freedom, it doesn't work here.

Well at least please respect somone actually plays / maps, guys? If you guys ensure that Taiko people will make final decision I won't be aggressive anymore, but in current situations I doubt we can make decisions by our own, to be honest, seriously.

I've give this some thoughts and concluded that custom hitsounds can be implemented eith certain limitations. I stated how custom hitsound can interfere Taiko gameplay a lot, but in practically I think this can be overcomed relatively easily if we set certain regulations, based on my experience. (Yeah mappers might want to implement there own hitsound and want to players hear it. Currently there's not much mappers doing that but who knows.) But this regulations and deciding certain hitsound is valid or not must be done by Taiko experts or at least several Taiko players since it is quite practical thing and need lots of experience to decided it's valid or not.

(Technically, currently using force Taiko skin option overrides any kind of custom hitsounds, as I know, though, as matthewhln said.)

Luna wrote:

No, it's not that simple. For one, you can skin Taiko visually as well, which is more like the equivalent to standard skins.

No, it is not. osu! focuses more on visual, and Taiko focuses more on audio. What affects visual? Skins. What affects audio? Sounds. Isn't that supposed to be a simple concept?

Luna wrote:

And secondly, Hitsounds are a much more integral part of the Taiko game mode than they are of standard osu! mode. Remember how you can force your own cursor and slider style over the map's skin? Yes, that even overrides forced skins like on Cirno.

No, it does not. Even if you delete all the skin elements, you are left with the Default skin, and the inability to choose my own skin. Try it out for yourself, thank you very much for your time.

lepidopodus wrote:

Well at least please respect somone actually plays / maps, guys? If you guys ensure that Taiko people will make final decision I won't be aggressive anymore, but in current situations I doubt we can make decisions by our own, to be honest, seriously.

I think the compromise would be that Taiko people get to make the final decision IFF they are able to bring up enough reasons why the custom hitsounds are not appropriate. While we respect the people that actually plays/maps, the area for "acceptable" is fairly broad.

Ok so finally that the argument is over let's start out by setting out how the guideline should go.

First of all i'd say the custom hitsounds have to be drum related (already said by ztrot lol)

those wrote:

Luna wrote:

And secondly, Hitsounds are a much more integral part of the Taiko game mode than they are of standard osu! mode. Remember how you can force your own cursor and slider style over the map's skin? Yes, that even overrides forced skins like on Cirno.

No, it does not. Even if you delete all the skin elements, you are left with the Default skin, and the inability to choose my own skin. Try it out for yourself, thank you very much for your time.

No, it uses the slider style and cursor of YOUR skin. Try it, you'll have mmsliders and a custom cursor despite the map forcing standard skin.
And that's just my point, the most integral instruments of playing the game can be forced over a mapper-chosen skin.

Suggestion, brought up from p/1543951

those wrote:

Custom hitsounds must be appropriate in that dons are clearly represented by a deeper/lower tone than kats, which are to be represented by a higher/lighter tone.

Luna wrote:

No, it uses the slider style and cursor of YOUR skin. Try it, you'll have mmsliders and a custom cursor despite the map forcing standard skin.
And that's just my point, the most integral instruments of playing the game can be forced over a mapper-chosen skin.

Take a picture for me, will you? Right now.
Edit: Here's my skin: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/321953
and here Cirno TAG4 gameplay: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/321955

Edit: sorry, misread your post. But slider style and cursor are definitely not the most integral parts of the skin.

so let's try

Custom hitsounds must be drum-related. If custom hitsounds are used, they should have deeper/lower tone set as don and a higher/lighter tone as kat.

Fix my grammar please.

Thanks for letting me explain it in more detail, and I will tell you guys why the argument is pointless IMO

Please jump to conclusion, if you feel too annoying to see what I have said

those wrote:

matthewhln wrote:

1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode

This is what we are trying to avoid. This is similar to "custom skins will affect nothing if you delete skin elements in the folder".

Neither mapper or player should be forced to use the custom skins/custom hitsound
so if they want to get rid of it, let them do it themselves

Also, Avoiding is not possible until peppy changed the program

matthewhln wrote:

2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult

We don't mention anything about hitsound volume, but the timbre of the hitsound itself.

The origin rule state nothing about the timbre of the hitsound but the constant of volume of the hitsound

matthewhln wrote:

3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?

Yes, this is true, and we know that. If you want to use the Taiko hitsound on a map that doesn't have custom hitsounds, use the game default ones.

My point is, if the player selected "use taiko skin for taiko mode", custom hitsound will do nothing
if the player don't select it, they suit themselves

matthewhln wrote:

4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself

I'm not quite sure I understand you here. Can you explain this a bit more?

The game default hitsound in taiko mode is different from using taiko skin
so it is already not something like "DON" and "KAT" (basic hitsound of taiko)
using custom hitsound will not affect so much
or I should say, discuss the impact of using custom hitsound is meaningless

To be conclude
1. "if the player don't use taiko skiln, they suit themselves"
2. "if they want to get rid of custom hitsound, let them do it themselves"
3. "The origin rule state nothing about the timbre of the hitsound but the constant of volume of the hitsound"

The main point of argument, which is "timbre of custom hitsound" is not in the rule
So what is the meaning of arguing?

those wrote:

Edit: sorry, misread your post. But slider style and cursor are not the most integral parts of the skin.

To me, Taiko hitsounds feel very much like a osu! cursor (and yes, I consider the cursor to be the most important part of a skin)
But from what I gather, your opinion on that seems to differ

/E: whatever, I'll just let the matter rest

matthewhln wrote:

To be conclude
1. "if the player don't use taiko skiln, they suit themselves"
2. "if they want to get rid of custom hitsound, let them do it themselves"
3. "The origin rule state nothing about the timbre of the hitsound but the constant of volume of the hitsound"

The main point of argument, which is "timbre of custom hitsound" is not in the rule
So what is the meaning of arguing?

Hey matthew. We aren't debating over the volume of the hitsounds at all.
Secondly, timbre is what the hitsound sounds like. Light/deep/echoing/sharp are all ways to describe the timbre. We are trying to get the usage of custom hitsounds.
Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.

Luna wrote:

To me, Taiko hitsounds feel very much like a osu! cursor (and yes, I consider the cursor to be the most important part of a skin)
But from what I gather, your opinion on that seems to differ

Everybody has their own priorities on skins. I, for one, get distracted if the hitsounds aren't loud enough and I can hear the sound of my own mouse clicking. As for cursor, I am usually able to play with any (I've been switching back and forth from default to smaller cursor due to modding and playing). Sliderstyle doesn't really matter, so definitely not integral (I can play with 1, 2, or 3).
In short, opinions can differ. But similarly to how a skin can match a map in standard, a custom hitsound set can match a map in Taiko.

Loctav wrote:

Custom hitsounds must be drum-related. If custom hitsounds are used, they should have deeper/lower tone set as don and a higher/lighter tone as kat.

This sounds good. What will the ruling on other miscellaneous sounds be, though? For example, lazers, whistles, etc.

A little tidbit: I've always referred to Taiko as "the drum game".

Nah, come on. We came to the conclusion that this is at least a drumming simulation. So let it stay at drum-customs D:

those wrote:

Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.

This is cannot be decide by anyone including BAT,MAT,the taiko community, you and me

Peppy is the only one who can control this by making new mechanism to add limit on locking the custom hitsound

Beside,the player can also decide themselves too (by deleting custom hitsound)
Sakura once state that "you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them"
so why we need to enforce player to use custom hitsound?

Loctav wrote:

Nah, come on. We came to the conclusion that this is at least a drumming simulation. So let it stay at drum-customs D:

Fair enough. Can we have this seconded, please?

matthewhln wrote:

Sakura once state that "you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them"
so why we need to enforce player to use custom hitsound?

This was directed at default hitsounds, as in "you should not force [default hitsounds] on mappers that actually want to use [custom hitsounds]".

This is the dumbest rule/argument I've seen in a long time.

those wrote:

Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.

that's not going to happen, and it would be really stupid if it did happen.

those wrote:

Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.

This was directed at default hitsounds, as in "you should not force [default hitsounds] on mappers that actually want to use [custom hitsounds]".

1.
I do not want to extend the discussion to "The freedom/right of a player deserved"

I also think you already understand "The freedom/right of a player deserved"
This is just a game lol

2.
As I said, "Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode"
which mean if mapper use [custom hitsounds], still affect NOTHING

3.
Same, Peppy is the only one who can control this
so please find peppy but not the taiko community for this
but I doute if he would accpet

http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Taiko_Ranking_Criteria

From now on please make a topic regarding each rule/guideline with [Taiko | Guideline] or [Taiko | Rule] in the title, the wiki can be edited by everyone as well, and translated versions can be made as well.

That way a single thread doesn't become a mess and a mash of rules/guidelines, and it looks more organized.

This also means that these are already considered official and will start being enforced (until ammendments are made)