Okay, how about minimate it much more?
As lepidopodus said, Don't expand it too much. If similar map got submitted in osu, we might allow that but only after long long discussion.

So or so finishes were discussed everytime and somtimes some mappers want to keep it but don't do because of discussions. So let's move this problem under guidelines (or keep it in rules) and say:

Seams better?

Make unusable middle-stream Finishes ( Rule ), Beginning/End Finish Notes usable but discouraged ( Guideline or Rule )

1. unsuable middle-stream Finishes & beginning-stream finishes
2. End finishes usable but dicouraged

Beginning(overlapping by finishes) is worser as ending(overlapping by normal hitcircle)

spliting it would be... possible, I guess?

Isn't that was first proposed a long long time ago?

I don't think so? Or I didn't recognize this post before.

Middle -> Prohibited by Rule, Reason: Obvious ( suggest splitting stream )
Start -> Highly Discouraged by Guideline, Reason: They have sense sometime.
End -> Avoid Random using by Recommendation, Reason: They're easier to play and to use.

OnosakiHito wrote:

I don't think so? Or I didn't recognize this post before.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Okay, stop please for a moment.

Before any new ideas are coming up, first discuss about the rule it self, please. After that you can use new ideas and opinions. But not before.

1. Finish Notes
   These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
   Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommendet, to avoid overlapping).
   Example: AU - Infinite of Nuclear Fusion [Taiko Oni]

Things got at the moment really messed up here. I will aske some BAT's to clean the thread if necessary.
If this should happen, I will add this into the second post two, what has been deleted.

the middle ground would be only xxxdK be allowed as a guideline, if that. Backfire, ozzy, Rokodo, and maybe lepi all say a big "NO" to any big notes in 1/4 streams, even at the end of screams. The points I made earlier are still valid (big notes aren't impossible, and can be fun to some people) but a lot of people despise them with a passion, especially on osu. Since the users really need to make the rules, we need to follow their lead.

The best reason to disallow these notes is that it is unauthentic. While you can cite difficulty as a reason, I wouldn't do so, because there should never be a limit to difficulty as long as it is theoretically possible. We can discourage hard maps, but we shouldn't outright ban them.

They can be royally abused and thus could make maps hard to read.

The BEST way to describe what is "acceptable" is if it speeds up into the finish, or you're using fake (doubled) bpm/sv.

What does it mean by overlapping notes?

When a finish covers up a regular note.

Why can't we just stick to authentic rules.
Oh wait noone even maps authentic anymore.

Okay. May I make some insight of a new rule?

No note must be visible within the track of other notes due to an inherited SV change.

I've really hate when a slider velocity just plummets and you see this note moving within all the other notes, because it's got an x50 or now it would be x65.

MMzz wrote:

Why can't we just stick to authentic rules.
Oh wait noone even maps authentic anymore.

we have been over this.

TheVileOne wrote:

Okay. May I make some insight of a new rule?

No note must be visible within the track of other notes due to an inherited SV change.

I've really hate when a slider velocity just plummets and you see this note moving within all the other notes, because it's got an x50 or now it would be x65.

no. this is not necessary and will be caught in modding. you don't have to make a rule for everything.

WTH not?


That just means you can't go slow, then fast, then immediately slow again.

There's no reason for this....

Unless you're going to add more, I'm going to consider your post as spam Ziin.

it can go fast-slow-fast and viceversa, maybe it's better saying "no note must overlap because of slider velocity changes"

Yes. That's what I mean. It's kind of difficult to find an example, because only so many maps have this where there is one stray note moving among all of the other notes. It's annoyingly hard to hit.

Those already get caught in the modding process anyways.

Rest Moments
Every specific Taiko diff. need to include rest moments. This means to avoid the use of constantly 1/4 notes and add some 1/1 moments.

This should be a guideline, not a rule in my humble opninion. I think that if a person wants to make a streamfeast - let him, why not? Especially if a mapper does not want to have 1/1 notes.

And I dislike this one as well -_-'

Finish Notes
- These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
- Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommended, to avoid overlapping).
Exeptions: Every stream that has "xxooxxooX" or harder patterns need to have a 1/2 space between stream and finish. That means using finishes on following streams were a climax sound is clearly hearable is allowed: "xxxxxxxx...xxxxO", "xxxxoooo...xxxxooooX"

I can understand not being able too se the note - mappers fault, but not being able to click the buttons - isn't it our own, players' fault?

@TheVileOne: http://puu.sh/lZJ8
@Taiko: rest moments is mean to be have. You may have a part where is none, but not the whole song along.
Finish notes can't be hit in streams. Especially not nit in high bpms.
Oh need to go to school sorry. lol

OnosakiHito wrote:

@Taiko:
Finish notes can't be hit in streams.

That's not entirely correct^^, but it's ok, I get your point.

Yeah, not entirely, but really really hard and not recommendet because of that, to do so.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Information: Circle Side and Approchal Rate have no effect in Taiko

Size?
Aproach?

Stickied this since it doesn't make sense to be down below with the individual standard rules threads right now.

@ikari_kyon: Sorry for that. After everything is finished, I will let this check by other people once again.
@Sakura Hana: Okay, thank you, I guess.

Finishes Note rule has been changed a bit again

1. Finish Notes
   
   1. These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the notes colour and because they overlap the related notes. Under certain conditions and many discussion there may be made an exception for 1/4 end-hitfinishes.
   2. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommended, to avoid overlapping).

Also I have some new infos for you guys.
This rules are going to be translated in the next days to chinese, japanese and I hope to korean too, to involve the asia community more into this, since they have many good opinions.

Further informations will coming.

Edit:

[Main thread]
English - t/72569 - OnosakiHito

[Translations]
中国(chinese) - t/80152 - wmfchris
日本(japanese) - t/73281 - Suzully
한국어(korean) - XXX - ???

Here're some translations from the Chinese taiko mappers.

ISHIDAMITSUNARI wrote:

一些看法 :

1. imo finish in the ending of BPM180 1/4 should be permitted.

2. Flashing kiai should be permitted unless they affect reading the notes

3. A clear-cut rule for 1/8 should be given, e.g. BPM140+ no 1/8; BPM120-140 no more that 1/8 5-plets, etc.

4. hitsound (whistle v clap) in editor is not that important and should be used to fit the song (i.e. some fit with whistle)

5. A clear range of SV should be set for different BPM as well.

6. custom skin is possible to appear in taiko gameplay so I don't think it's to be banned

sp3 wrote:

1. taiko BG should be required

2. Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4

3. Letterbox during breaks should be removed.

4. Flashy SB/Vid should be removed artificially.

Numbers wrote:

1. Difficulty setting: AR/CS shouldn't be unreasonbly low because that affects score multiplier.

2. imo 1/8 in BPM 105 or below is ok, and 1/6 should be ok for all time.

3. BPM multiplier should be restricted to like 1.5x, 0.75x, 0.5x, 2x, etc but not 0.8x, 0.95x,...

4. streams should not exist between two neighbouring sliders.

kpy wrote:

Being a player I oppose finishes on 1/4 1/6 1/8

climbb wrote:

1. I oppose finishes on 1/4 or above because hitting both keys is supposed to hit the finishes in osu! taiko (in ordinary ways of playing), they are only acceptable in very low BPM songs like BPM120 or below.

2. "playability" of 1/8 is hard to define but it doesn't need a clear banning, such conditions would be ideal for 1/8:

i) BPM140 or below; AND
ii) 1/8 is clearly auidable OR 1/8 has clear meaning in the song.

3. Video should not be artificially removed. If they affects gameplay they have the right to use no video but artificially removing video destroys the oppotunity for all players to watch the video in taiko gameplay.

Kanarin wrote:

If there's clear accent in the music, simple stream with finish at the end is acceptable for all BPM like ddddK

Flashing kiai is not allowed in standard, and shouldn't be in taiko either.

I agree with climbb regarding finishes: I'm all for forbidding finishes in streams altogether.

I'm fine with 1/8 under 150 BPM, but ONLY IF THERE CLEARLY IS 1/8 IN THE SONG.

Videos and SB shouldn't be removed for Taiko difficulties, they're part of the mapset after all.

yes, we can refer some of them to the current solo rules stuff and I'll explain to them.
=========================
finishes on ending of 1/4: imo it's only ok at very low BPM (e.g. 110 or 120) + CLEAR accent in music + simple stream

1/8: yes, imo they are only ONLY if there're CLEAR 1/8 in the music

Taiko BG: imo this is more like a suggestion because there are many songs that fit for solo BG (some ex. from my maps http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25491 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24626 http://osu.ppy.sh/b/149947 http://osu.ppy.sh/b/79035)
=============================
some are worth discussion listed below:

1. Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4
2. Letterbox during breaks should be removed.
3. Difficulty setting: AR/CS shouldn't be unreasonbly low because that affects score multiplier
4. streams should not exist between two neighbouring sliders.

wmfchris wrote:

Here're some translations from the Chinese taiko mappers.

ISHIDAMITSUNARI wrote:

一些看法 :

1. imo finish in the ending of BPM180 1/4 should be permitted. Right now finish is on every BPM allowed as long as the notes dosen't overlap, too much.

2. Flashing kiai should be permitted unless they affect reading the notes This need to be discussed with more people. In my opinion it should never be allowed. Having some short kiai breaks which are some seconds long in fitting sections is okay.

3. A clear-cut rule for 1/8 should be given, e.g. BPM140+ no 1/8; BPM120-140 no more that 1/8 5-plets, etc. This need to be discussed more.

4. hitsound (whistle v clap) in editor is not that important and should be used to fit the song (i.e. some fit with whistle) This is just a recommended guideline. Using whistle is okay, but not recommended since clap = original kat.

5. A clear range of SV should be set for different BPM as well. Need to be discussed more.

6. custom skin is possible to appear in taiko gameplay so I don't think it's to be banned Right now it is premited. Just Custom-Hitbursts are not allowed.

sp3 wrote:

1. taiko BG should be required I will add this in the next update in Recommendations section for now.

2. Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4 Sounds resonable. Some discuss requiered.

3. Letterbox during breaks should be removed. To mention it in the guidelines should be enough.

4. Flashy SB/Vid should be removed artificially. This is hard to consider, people still can delete flashy SB's or use no-video. Further discussion coming.

Numbers wrote:

1. Difficulty setting: AR/CS shouldn't be unreasonbly low because that affects score multiplier. keep it as lvl 5 should be okay. But so or so we don't know the real affect of it.

2. imo 1/8 in BPM 105 or below is ok, and 1/6 should be ok for all time. On low BPM's 1/8 is okay. I forgot to mention it in the rules because of many changes.

3. BPM multiplier should be restricted to like 1.5x, 0.75x, 0.5x, 2x, etc but not 0.8x, 0.95x,... Need some discussion.

4. streams should not exist between two neighbouring sliders. At the moment the guidelines says the same. In some cases we may do it.

kpy wrote:

Being a player I oppose finishes on 1/4 1/6 1/8 Still on discussion. But most people seam to be fine with it(even aquabluu and Zekira)

climbb wrote:

1. I oppose finishes on 1/4 or above because hitting both keys is supposed to hit the finishes in osu! taiko (in ordinary ways of playing), they are only acceptable in very low BPM songs like BPM120 or below. Hitting them with both keys is an invalid reason if the finish is another colour as the stream (xxxxooooX)

2. "playability" of 1/8 is hard to define but it doesn't need a clear banning, such conditions would be ideal for 1/8:

i) BPM140 or below; AND
ii) 1/8 is clearly auidable OR 1/8 has clear meaning in the song. Need to be discussed more.

3. Video should not be artificially removed. If they affects gameplay they have the right to use no video but artificially removing video destroys the oppotunity for all players to watch the video in taiko gameplay. I agree. But as I said before this needs also some discussions and borders.

Kanarin wrote:

If there's clear accent in the music, simple stream with finish at the end is acceptable for all BPM like ddddK I agree.

Said discussion will be talked about with other taiko mappers.
Thank you chris! I will contact you guys for a new multi-talk soon.

The thing is that Flashing kiai should never have been permitted on Standard either, it was on the old guidelines.

wmfchris wrote:

Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4

This can be fixed with setting a new BPM at 1.5x. It's better to lie about the real BPM than to limit the map in any way.

wmfchris wrote:

Difficulty setting: AR/CS shouldn't be unreasonbly low because that affects score multiplier

I don't understand the reasoning for limiting AR/CS.

wmfchris wrote:

streams should not exist between two neighbouring sliders.

Sure.

wmfchris wrote:

Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4

Blatant lies.
Set the tick rate to 3 and your sliders will have triple rolls.
There should be a rule, 1/3 snap maps *must* use tick rate 3. x1.5 BPM is unrankable.

mm201 wrote:

Blatant lies.
Set the tick rate to 3 and your sliders will have triple rolls.
There should be a rule, 1/3 snap maps *must* use tick rate 3. x1.5 BPM is unrankable.

Except for the dual time signature maps where you would have to use x1.5 BPM. If it's still "unrankable" then it's a terrible limitation and needs to be implemented for all modes of play.

So, I guess I'll give some of my opinions to the rules ~

AR/CS settings : I'm fine with all settings as they don't affect the gameplay. Maybe we can let the mappers to choose their own AR/CS so that minor score adjustment becomes possible ? Because as I know, the score depends on the diff settings ~

1/4 finishes : imo 1/4 finishes at the end of stream are acceptable as they're not that hard to hit. Just don't put too many when the BPM is high. But still I won't use them in my maps because they look a bit visually untidy ( the finish stacks the previous note )

1/8 : This depends on the song. Avoid them when the BPM is quite high ( ~ 160 BPM. No exact value for ban needed imo. Just treat them case-by-case ? ). Don't make them long ( strongly suggest 5 as max ) and only place them when they really fit the song / necessary ~

Sliders in 1/3 songs : As I know, there's no method to control the frequency of hits in sliders. So I oppose using sliders in 1/3 songs as they are really hard to hit ( don't match the song and they sound off ). And yes, there should be a function to control the slider hit rate in Taiko :<

Video : Don't remove them. The reason is same for CBB. I fully agree with that ~

Kiai flashes : Maybe it's me, but I think as long as they don't distract the gameplay quite a lot, they should be allowed. I personally think that flashes can be parts of styles, and therefore they should not be banned for no reason. ( Maybe for those who oppose them, give me some reasons for that ? I don't think "solo diffs are banned from flashes so Taiko should be banned too" is a convincing reason to ban them. Taiko is just different from solo. Otherwise we won't have Taiko-only diffs, right ? )

SV changes ( BPM multipliers ) : For me, 0.5x to 1.2x are all fine. Anything lower than normal should be readable, and those higher should be possible to sightread and hit. I personally like to use multipliers of 1 digit ( eg 0.8x, 0.9x, 1.1x etc )

I may add more later. Can't think of much to write for now.

^ Someone can't read.

ziin wrote:

Except for the dual time signature maps where you would have to use x1.5 BPM. If it's still "unrankable" then it's a terrible limitation and needs to be implemented for all modes of play.

I think an exception can be made in the case where it changes mid-song. This applies to all modes.
Remember to set your time signature to 6 (or 3 for 0.75) so that your barlines don't suck.

mm201 wrote:

^ Someone can't read. I actually read that, but I didn't test if it works yet. So I just assume that there's no way to fix that. Sry sbout that

And yes, this is my 500th post ._.

I don't understand the reasoning for limiting AR/CS.

In most of the taiko maps points per hit is 1100. If AR/CS is too low so that the difficulty rating decreases that will affect scores of taiko diff in which that difficulty rating may not fit the general difficulty of the diff.

In most case, unreasonably high won't affect the difficulty rating (unless it's extremely streamy then the points per hit goes to 1260), but too low AR/CS will make points per hit dropping to like 940 or even 780 which is a misfit with the diff.

mm201: wow I don't know that before lol. If it's available I think it's necessary to write that into rules.

===================

Numbers wrote:

The break time for very slow songs (like BPM120) could be half beat instead of 1.

How about we remove slider ticks because they are bad.

Ever notice that it's near impossible to get a perfect start on them when a stream leads into them. ( I can give plenty of examples )

I don't understand why sliders can't just have a set amount of hits to them according to length, but you can hit them as fast as you want.

And thus this silly issue about 1/3 sliders would be fixed.

I miss unlimited sliders. >:

Unlimited sldiers are so easily makroable. And why should you limit the amount of hits? Sliders would turn out to be like a spinner, just that you dont need to hit dkdkdkd but inputwhateveryouwant until you reached the limit.

There were several reasons when they got removed back then >:

I can think of a more tolerant algorithm than the current one for rolls but implementing it would be unfair to existing scores.

You guys impllimented Hyper fruits, that was unfair to Ctb scores. =P

Hitting them with both keys is an invalid reason if the finish is another colour as the stream (xxxxooooX)

For the considerable amount of two-finger-players like me, this matters. Players playing with specific techniques should not benefit from the rules-----Do you play a real drum with four sticks？

@hknoboru: I played the original TnT and I play the TataCon on my PC. Personally I can hit them and other people would say the same or the controvers opinion.
So let's move to the question ,,what we are playing with"? Since this a keyboard based game which can be played with 4 keys this allegation is a bit wobbly.

I consider it a drum simulatation game. Anyway as there exists such players we cant force them to give up fast afterstreamfinishes, this results in a general loss of score when compared to players playing with four fingers

I disagree with putting anything other than a k or d (small) after a stream (1/4 1/6 or 1/8). Anything like that looks ugly (ddddddddK looks unbelievably ugly, or sliders right after streams) and are usually unplayable (unless certain conditions...).

you can simply implement that new algorithm in newer ranked maps only (obviously ranked after the introduction, i know it could cause bugs anyway ) and in the autoplay.

@HakuNoKaemi: That's something I have wanted to talk with mm201 about, since I discussed with some other known taiko mappers about this. Probably I will send him a PM soon, because he has much to do.

Edit: Got mm201 answer about this. Further informations are coming.

Edit2: @v: Oh I see now what HakuNoKaemi, ment. lol

I'm not changing the slider judgement algorithm.

OnosakiHito wrote:

@hknoboru: I played the original TnT and I play the TataCon on my PC. Personally I can hit them and other people would say the same or the controvers opinion.
So let's move to the question ,,what we are playing with"? Since this a keyboard based game which can be played with 4 keys this allegation is a bit wobbly.

just because you can hit them doesn't mean everyone can.

If we are looking at this realisticly a taiko drum should never be hit like that.

And besides, if you hit the middle of the drum it resembles a both side hit sometimes? I was told this by players before.

Odaril wrote:

I disagree with putting anything other than a k or d (small) after a stream (1/4 1/6 or 1/8). Anything like that looks ugly (ddddddddK looks unbelievably ugly, or sliders right after streams) and are usually unplayable (unless certain conditions...).

Are you saying what the notes look like counts towards how good/bad the map is?
lol

Mh, I said that a bit awkward, huh?
I have the same thought as you MMzz, that's why I said to hknoboru ,,So let's move to the question ,,what we are playing with"? Since this a keyboard based game which can be played with 4 keys this allegation is a bit wobbly.".
This should mean like ,,My opinion, or other people opinions, what is possible with drum or not is pretty invalid, so let's move to the question..."

Yes, I thought about this, tbh, too. BUt never testet it. Will do that soon. lol


About 1/4 finishes, there will be probably no big changes anymore since this has been really often dicussed before and most people seams fine with them when they are just on easy streams (xxxxxxxxO/xxxxooooX)
I will make soon a more understandable rule about finishes.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Mh, I said that a bit awkward, huh?
I have the same thought as you MMzz, that's why I said to hknoboru ,,So let's move to the question ,,what we are playing with"? Since this a keyboard based game which can be played with 4 keys this allegation is a bit wobbly.".
This should mean like ,,My opinion, or other people opinions, what is possible with drum or not is pretty invalid, so let's move to the question..."

Yes, I thought about this, tbh, too. BUt never testet it. Will do that soon. lol


About 1/4 finishes, there will be probably no big changes anymore since this has been really often dicussed before and most people seams fine with them when they are just on easy streams (xxxxxxxxO/xxxxooooX)
I will make soon a more understandable rule about finishes.

Well whenever I'm in the situation where oooooooO (or viseversa) appears I usually just cut the note before the finisher. ooooooo O

I agree with MMzz in the sense that this is a drum visualization.

Sure, I agree.
So or so at the moment finish streams like ooooooooO are not allowed.

I talked yesterday to someone who had a really good opinion about those rules.
And one big importand topic was how they are written down. Too much informations and things which dosen't need to be mentioned in rules are written down as ziin said before, too. And I agreed with it, so I made a draft for now to show it to you guys.

Reason is pretty easy. Obviously things dosen't need to be mentioned, this would be more like an mapping guide then. Also the obviously things can be mentioned as mods in the maps itself. Tell me if something is still too long or you have an opinion about this, please.

Here you have the short version of he rules for now:

I think the short version is clear and good enough to be handed in as 1.0 version.
From now on I suggest to let this rules live and develop on its own (like they do in standard mode)

If it turns out that there are apparent needs for adjustments, they can be assigned later on.
Anything else that could be disturbing in a song is song-specified in most cases and don't need to be generalized in a rule or guideline.

This rules shouldn't replace the modding process, so with THIS we have some compendium of what is a "no-go" EVERYWHERE. When something on a specific taiko map turns out to be 'eww' even if it's not forbidden, mod it out of it.
Same method gets used in standard mode. So we can do the same.

^ Agree.

OD/HP of marathon diffs: 1~4

=>

HP of marathon diffs: 1~5 depends on length and # of notes in the song.

You didn't add "Tick rate 3 for 1/3 songs only" as well.

I still don't think xxxxxxxxO should be specially permitted

What makes it different from xxxxooooX ?

well, why not xxxxxxxxX ? (theoretically easier than the xO type)
you could permit Oxxx / Xooo (as long it play much much much good and direct, ) they could "have sense" but being difficult to play if not intuitive, you should pretty much say to try to use it if their using have sense )
The xoxoxoxoX could be allowed. But yeah, if people use them they should pretty much have sense.

No it's not easier, because you'd have to press the same key twice in a row in a stream.

We discussed the variations of finish streams at the end/beginning/inbetween several times and we came to the conclusion, that the finish streams should only be allowed at this kind of patterns.
We cleary deny same coloured finishes, because you have to play (for me as example) sdsdsd(sd) - (or for default settings: djdjdjdj(DJ))
Try to imagine that you stream on standard with two keys and then have to hit the last note with both keys.

The thing with different colored finishes is that you have to hit them with different keys than you were streaming with, so they are easier to hit.

Loctav said everything.
This has been dicussed many times and ,,xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX" is the absolut final decision.
No ...xoxO or anything else.

Also who don't like them, don't need to map them. Everything is moding based.

I think you should add into the Finish Note section that finishers should be used WHEN THERE IS A FINISHER SOUND IN THE SONG (Cymbols and stuff)

I've been seeing a lot of random finishers these days.

MMzz wrote:

I think you should add into the Finish Note section that finishers should be used WHEN THERE IS A FINISHER SOUND IN THE SONG (Cymbols and stuff)

I've been seeing a lot of random finishers these days.

We don't need to add to the rules that hitobjects need to fit the music. (which also means that finishers should only be placed where it fits)

Different versions has been posted into the first post.
Taiko_BG case will be also added to Recommendation.

Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?

NoHitter wrote:

Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?

Probably should, albeit authentic TnT rarely ever goes over 2 mins (if ever) but we have a lot of ranked long Taiko maps so i guess we could just put the same limit for Taiko maps.

There are some cases though with 4:30+ minute songs.
They are mapped with breaks such that the standard difficulties are under 4:30 min draining time.

If there is a Taiko, then the mapset would have to be approved just for the Taiko diff due to Taiko not having breaks.
Perhaps some leeway should be allowed for cases like this?

Since Taiko does not really affects whether the mapset is approved or ranked, Currently it depends on draining time of standard maps.
(But if we have to make the limitation for Taiko maps, limit of draining time should be longer than 4:30, I think. Yeah. We don't have many breaks in our maps.)

And I'd rather say avoid using breaks unless the song is really long or mood of the part of the song is suit well with no notes. I don't like disallowing something, usually.

Set it to 5 minutes or the same total length of the corresponding standard diffs.
Yes, we don't use breaks as far as possible, but they are not required, since we don't need to rearrange ourselves like in standard (where the pen starts to glide out of the hand or the desk starts to end while playing with mouse)

NoHitter wrote:

Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?

I guess so. The only problem is like in solo diffs 4:30 of draining time + breaks may last like 5 minutes, while taiko diff may fill up those breaks making the draining time exceeds 4:30.

In this sense I'll suggest 5:00 as the max draining time (well, Taiko mode has no "draining" lol)

How about leaving it how it is? Since this wasn't never a problem or issue before.

hmmm

Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
At the end, finish streams may allowed under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX

it means finish note allowed in short stream like oX or ooX as long the finish note alternates with the previous note ?

also how long the longest stream are allowed in taiko?

thanks ^^

I would not suggest using finishes in triplets.
Also there is no limit to stream length, but your map needs this resting moments - regardless of this, streams need to fit the song and only-stream maps are stupid in most cases and modders will request modifications like splitting it up.

Edit: One of the known bugs appeard in the diff.. All timelines are gone, this will be fix'd soon as possible.
I have some news for you guys:

I talked to mm201 for permission to upload and rank on the second osu server some maps which are related to the rule discussion to see how people react to some cases like for example "1/4 finish streams".
Here you can find the map: http://ha.ppy.sh/s/180
To have acess on the server, you need to open ,,osume.exe" and tick ,,use test build".
Note that just people with supporter tag are able to start it.

Test the maps and give us your opinion about the severel cases(if you have some).

OK, Chris is too lazy, so I rather paste my opinion here myself

Taiko diff name
I think "Taiko" must included in the difficult name to identify...

Some name like "Jubiko" is kind of confusing, that some people may not know that it is a combined name (taiko and jubeat)
which may cause them selecting the wrong difficulty (most likely the solo players)

But something like "Taikosaki" or "Taiko extra" can state very clearly it is a taiko difficult.

However, to keep mapper creative on the map name, this should better be placed in Guidelines instead of Rules, and judge by the modder and the mapper of that map


Deleting StoryBoard?
I think it is not nessasary to add this rule/guideline

Since it will need the coorperation between the mapper and the taiko guest mapper

Also the rules/guidelines are specify on the behavior of taiko mapper, it should not give the limit to the original mapper.
(There is no this kind of rule/guideline yet)


1/4 streams' big circle placement
I think there should be none of exception because of pattern (I don't oppose exception on BPM)

As firce said (lazy chris have not put it here yet),
it may not be fair to some player in their style (between using 2 fingers and 4 fingers)
for 2 fingers player, they may be harder the hit the big circle at the last note in "xxxxxxxxO" than 4 fingers player

Also, as Chris said,
「Same side should not be continuously hit in 1/4 stream」(he state that in Chinese ver post)
if Same side have been continuously hit in 1/4 stream, then it will be 1/8 (1/4 with single hand = 1/8 with both hands)

so the exception of "xxxxxxxxO" is not reasonable enough.
However, I will not exclude the possibility of making it into the guideline although it may not be the best way

Sorry but - I didn't understand what I just read.
My apologizes but I don't get your stuff in any single way.
I guess I have to ask Wmf on my own >_>

I understand your points matthe. @Loctav you can ask me. lol

diff names
Hey, the rules has been also changed in meaning, that's not good. I support what you said matthe since that was what I wrote down before and will also look through all rules to avoid such cases again.
(Yes, I didn't had a brief look through it after chris and loctav changed it for better understanding, sorry)

1/4 finishes
As I said before, ooooooooO is not allowed and I will also not change the rule anymore since this has been discussed now many years.
First reason not to take it was ,,it's not authentic", then the reason was ,,unplayable".
Both cases dosen't fit anymore nowadays, but the rules has been still made by considering this.

My explaination is like
Instead of "you hit with the same finger consecutively" we could consider the drums in which "the same side of the drum is hit consecutively": the case "hit with the same finger/hand but different side of instrument" is common in sth like drum set while "hitting the same side of the instrument consecutively" is a bit odd.

oh, god so many information makes my mind blow out of it, im gona try to keep it on it <_<

^@ read the OP, especially the latest version and state your opinion. Right now, they discuss about big-notes at stream ends. If you need any assistance catching up in this discussion, ask Onosaki, me or wmf ingame (or any discussion participant of your trust)

not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..

No ,,oO".
Reason was given.

If you have a Taiko Guest diff. the mapper must be in the Name of Difficulty?? Or is just an option? I didn't understood that

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..

I know, cause sometimes even I thought that kind of thing would be suitable for the music, but we should know that this isn't an art.

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..

This is a taiko drum.
Not a drum kit.


Carry-on

mancusojuanmattos wrote:

If you have a Taiko Guest diff. the mapper must be in the Name of Difficulty?? Or is just an option? I didn't understood that

They 'MAY contain'. There is no NEED. Pretty clear for me.

I think finishes in streams which are still do-able (in this case, ..ooX and ...xxO is the easiest imo) is okay. You get full points just by pressing both sides without having to get the thick yellow border mark though. >_>

MMzz wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..

This is a taiko drum.
Not a drum kit.


Carry-on

same.
Real Taiko drummers can really do those pattern... and a game's map not an art?
Restrict them to Harder{Harder[Harder(Harder)]} difficulties?

You can go ahead and make a map with a 1/4 finisher, but it won't get ranked.
Feel free to make them unsubmitted.

CARRY-ON

Finishers in streams :

ddddddddddK d
>Esc Retry. Nuff said.

At low BPMs I wouldn't mind (As low as people could play the ddddddd part with 1 finger) but really it's nonsense. Doing this increases the possibility of non-FCing (though it CAN be hit with 1 side) but the purpose of the finisher is to be hit by both sides. imo a Taiko map should be playable with keyboard AND drum so no, at high speeds (140+)

At 120-140... Avoid.

Below 120 it's possible but reasons should be CLEAR ENOUGH.


Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.

_Gezo_ wrote:

Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.

Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider.

wmfchris wrote:

_Gezo_ wrote:

Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.

Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider.

It was about ticks, but yeah that thing might be calculated with bounds (500 - 1000 BPM 1/1 for ticks ?)
I saw that while playing a slow map... Forgot which one tho. orz.

The only valid points are that they don't play well and they are hard to read due to taiko's note system (you don't read individual notes, you read the patterns, which is why a constant stream of notes in taiko is a bad thing).

if anything drums are easier than keyboard.

wmfchris wrote:

Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider.

dubstep can be considered 70 bpm, and at that bpm there would be a lot of 1/8. Of course that would mean that 1/4 at 140 BPM would fit equally.

This is 105 BPM, for example, and filled to the brim with 32nd notes.

Just saying it depends on the music. It's a bad idea to ban drumrolls because of a glitch/feature in the game. If need be you can always trick the game into doing what you want so that you make the best map you can.

(Tick rates - drumroll tick rate are gameplay stuffs and is clearly written that it will not be changed in this post if I remmber it correctly.)

Drumrolls allows a free stream solo (i.e. 1/4 2 beats slider can be kkdkkdkdk or ddddddddd) that does not goes well for me. If there's any chance to use a slider with less drum ticks, individual notes work better, so I don't see the reason to make slower sliders.

For the faster ones, "slider" is under suggestions are not a must, it depends on songs.

Finish-notes
There will be no other permissions for now as the one we have allready in the rules.
ooooxxxxO <- This notes can be played and dosen't interupt player to fc a map at all. This has just something to with experience, not unplaybility. It is playable and can be even played on drum. ooooooooO is barely playable, that's why it is not permitted.

Also having ooX is not recommendet at all because this can be quickly abused by some mappers. We can mod it away, but sometimes it will happen that some of these maps would be accidentally ranked.
And don't forget: It was allready hard enough to get the agreement of the community to use finishes on 9-plet long streams, so we don't need to force our luck too much to have more exeptions.

BPM Changes / Overlaping notes
This guideline/rule is still not clear enough, so I will rewrite it when I have time.
wmf's and Loctav's description has been deleted for now. That what they wrote down into the Rules:

I'm agains that for now. I don't say this should be fully permited, but there should be some gray-zones like when the song has a fitting part for this.
I will give two examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/35211 - [Taiko Oni] @ 02:20:051 - This will be hard to fc on the first try, but after some it is totally possible and playable.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/144429 - [Taikosaki] @ 02:00:370 - You can see the slider is overlaps the big KAT, but since it is not a small note, you can see when you need to hit it.

I think it is clear enough what I want to show and say with those examples.
Discuss.

I'll say this loud and clear: I wholeheartedly disapprove of the use of finishes on 1/4 (and even 1/3) streams whatever the reason may be. It never feels good to play.
I'm also generally against the use of SV changes in general because I see a plethora of foul examples where it has been handled poorly (this includes several TnT authentic maps, the most outrageous example being EkiBEN2000) so if SV change there is, it should firstly be a slight change, and shouldn't overlap notes in any way. BPM changes being obviously exempted from this.