[Proposal] osu!mania Ranking Criteria (whole draft)

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Shoegazer
The ranking criteria does not include any clause about how the layering (or deliberate patterning for that matter, but this is mostly irrelevant) scheme of a chart must be kept consistent unless there is a reason to deviate from the rules of a layering scheme. I have a document on layering if it is necessary, but I would like to see if the absence of such a clause is intentional.

That being said, grammatical errors aside, I do have further reservations with the ranking criteria:

Column: Columns are the lines in the editor where the notes get placed. The editor uses 0|1|2|3, but many modders prefer to use 1|2|3|4, which is important for modding in osu!mania. These numbers may vary depending on the beatmap’s keymode.
Slider Velocity: For osu!mania, slider velocity adjusts the speed in which the notes scroll.
Teleports: A note whose motion is quick enough to skip any given location of the playfield instantaneously.
Mini-jack: A small number of consecutive notes in the same column, usually performed at a faster pace compared to surrounding notes.
Stream: A constant supply of notes with the same intervals that do not repeat to create a mini-jack.
Chords: Two or more notes performed at the same time.
Graces: Two or more notes performed in a quick succession.
Long note: A note that must be held and released in succession.
Release: The end of a long note which must be released within a certain timing window to score the entirety of the note properly.
Inverse: A type of pattern that replaces all regular notes with long notes in a given section.
Trill: Four or more notes that alternate within two columns.
Bracket: A pattern that uses alternating fingers to perform it correctly.
Shield: A note which appears shortly after a long-note.
Gluts: A constant supply of chords which do not repeat in all of the same columns.
Jumps: Two notes performed at the same time.
Jumpstream: A stream interlaced with jumps.
Jumptrill: A trill consisting of two alternating jumps.
Split jumptrill: A jumptrill which uses both hands at the same time to perform correctly - i.e two one-handed trills.
Hands: Three notes performed at the same time.
Roll: A variation of a stream consisting of notes that go from the first to the last column or last to the first column, usually done in quick succession.
- Minijack has no hyphen to it, and minijacks refer to 2 consecutive notes on the same column. The minijack itself has a faster "jack" motion than other patterns around it, but its rhythmic density is usually the same compared to other notes in the section.

- The description of "graces" refer to flams. Grace notes refer to the second (and/or) third notes of a flam.

- Trills refer to any set of notes (lasting three notes or longer) that alternate between two columns.

- The key component of "inverse" sections is that there is very little empty space (i.e. you're not hitting or holding a key) in that section. This means that the LNs must also be long enough to cover up near the entirety (90-95%) of the playfield. As it is, any section that is entirely made of LNs with short releases is considered an "inverse" section.

- The term "bracket" is only used in keymodes beyond 5K. Brackets refer to the alternation of three or more fingers (either 2 finger-1 finger or something similar) on the same hand. As it is, it refers to one-hand trilling as bracketing.

- Gluts can be better referred to as consecutive ("constant supply" in your case) chords. Jumpjacks/handjacks/jumptrills are all part of "gluts"; it's just that we refer to gluts as those aforementioned patterns when the gluts meet certain characteristics.

- Rolls are typically faster than the mode rhythmic density of a section.

RC:
Hard:
- Note snappings of 1/8 and above are disallowed. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level. An exception to this rule would be the usage of grace notes that are at higher-end snaps (1/8, 1/12 and 1/16) as they are only used to accentuate gracing sounds.
- Do not place any chords in the middle of streams.
- Inverse patterns must not be used. They are a very advanced type of pattern and that they require a lot of coordination to properly execute it.

Guide:
- Avoid 1/4 streams made of more than 16 notes. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level.
- Mini-jack usage is discouraged, especially on higher BPM. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level.
- Long notes should not be shorter than 1/4 in length.
Rules:
- Certain sounds require the use of 1/8s, 1/12s and 1/16s to maximise the correspondence between an extant sound and the complementing note. I assume that that was an exception that was overlooked, for the reason for disallowing those snaps is that streams of that notation (at 150 BPM) can be excessively difficult.

- It is far better to establish a rule of thumb of maximum chord density (given a base of 150 BPM 1/4s) than to disallow chords altogether. Players at that level, however, should have little to no issue with 150 BPM jumpstream with doubles on every 2/1.

- Patterns per se are not "advanced", and the difficulty of the pattern is highly contingent on the speed of the pattern. It is better to establish a speed of the pattern that you are disallowing rather than disallowing the pattern altogether.

Guide:
- Players should be more than capable of hitting 16-note 1/4 streams at 150 BPM at that level. It would be better to use a higher BPM range (e.g. 200) instead or to remove the guideline altogether.

- Minijacks (2-note jacks) are not particularly demanding, for players can hit these minijacks at a tempo that is far slower than how fast the minijack is and still get good judgments. I would suggest removing this guideline.

- LNs per se are not difficult. Sinnoh brings up a good point of how the density of a section will affect the difficulty of LN releases. It is better to define the guideline further to avoid unnecessary misinterpretation.
Insane:
- Avoid 1/8 streams made of more than 8 notes. Streams of this type of snap are harder to pull off than snaps at the lower end, and as such should only be used if the song warrants it.
- Avoid using split rolls or any kind of complicated 1/8 streams. These types of patterns are much harder to execute properly and shouldn't be used unless the song is abrasive enough to warrant that type of pattern. Use simple rolls as an alternative so it matches the intensity of that portion of the song without making it difficult to play through.
- Using jumptrills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. This is if the genre of the map is not intended to be technical, as this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the minijack.
- Using split jumptrills / brackets is discouraged. These are much more physically exhausting, awkward and take more control to properly execute compared to the standard jumptrills that alternate hands. Do not use both of these as if they are the same unless they are shorter than 5 notes long. Rare cases that allow these to be used are if the music here is abrasive enough to warrant the physical exhaustion.
- Players are far more than capable enough of hitting 1/8 streams at 150 BPM when they reach Insane level. It would be better to use a higher BPM range (e.g. 190) instead or to remove the guideline altogether.

- The latter rule is more applicable for 1/8 streams at 190+ BPM rather than 150 BPM. Most players are more than capable of hitting 300 BPM 16 note streams even with hard patterns.

- Minijacks (2-note jacks) are not particularly demanding, for players can hit these minijacks at a tempo that is far slower than how fast the minijack is and still get good judgments. I would suggest removing this guideline. Jumptrill to hand-based patterns should be assessed based on their suitability relative to the rest of the map (in terms of difficulty variance or musical relevance), and should not be discouraged completely.

- This guideline would be more applicable for 180-200 BPM 1/4 split jumptrills rather than 150 BPM.
Expert:
- Keep hand balance concepts clear for higher difficulties. For example, a regular jumptrill plays way easier than a split handed jumptrill so you have to be careful on its usage for high BPM songs.
- Long note release timings should use similar snaps than their press timings. Long notes that are into more jazz rhythm should usually have 1/3 or 1/6 releases while more rigid songs might use 1/4 or 1/8 snaps. Combining LN snaps for releases is fine but do it with caution.
- The first guideline is too vague to mean anything.

- Staccato LNs are not covered in the Expert guidelines (nor any of the guidelines for that matter); I assume that staccato LNs (extremely short releases) are permissible for Hard difficulties and above.

@Feerum:
Yeah, we have basically talked to allow some kind of "dumps" in Mania but as much as we tried we couldn't come to some proper conclusion to be posted with this here.
This does not mean we dropped the topic!
This is not hard to do.

A semi-dump (as far as I've heard that you guys have defined it) is:
- A chart that uses ghost notes in a consistent and musically justifiable manner.
- A chart that deviates from a general layering scheme for reasons that go beyond reducing malignant difficulty variance. This is fairly vague however, and the idea of a "general layering scheme" is not established. The document I have gives a good idea of what "general layering rules" and "situational layering rules" are, but I do not know if it is worth it to cover them in the criteria.

You can include these rules:
- Under certain conditions (that pertain to the song, that is; e.g. the presence of both bass kicks and snares at a certain rhythm), you may use ghost notes for parts of the song that meet that condition. If you do use ghost notes in that manner, the use must be consistent. The level of rhythmic density created by ghost notes must be within reason (difficulty-wise), and the use of ghost notes must align with the music's intensity relative to other sections in the map and song.

- A high level of rhythmic density (e.g. a 1/6 or 1/8 stream) can correspond to a sound with a sustained peak period as long as the peak justifies that high level of rhythmic density (based on the intensity/volume of that sound). If you do ghost notes in that manner, the use must be consistent. The level of rhythmic density created by ghost notes must be within reason (difficulty-wise), and the use of ghost notes must align with the music's intensity relative to other sections in the map and song.

- Sections of a map that do not strictly follow the layering scheme established in the map are permissible if the map's intensity corresponds to the music's intensity relative to other sections in the map and song. This rule can only be reinforced if every note/chord in the map corresponds to sounds that are present in the song. (This may be exploitable however, which is inevitable for any ranking system that has no explicit quality control.) In hindsight, this rule is too exploitable for its own good. Overlayered charts have always been allowed as long as they were consistent, and overlayered charts that break away from their established layering schemes that were ranked did so because its difficulty variance might have been too undesirable otherwise.
juankristal
I feel that hard difficulties are already very hard right now for most of the players that want to get into mania. They usually do alright up until normals and completely die on hards. Mostly due to the fact that a) they cant play streams b) they cant play jumpstreams because well, they cant stream c) streams+LN layer.

I feel that hards should mostly if not exclusively be 1/4 streams and never 1/4 jumpstreams. Having chords on 1/2 is probably fine, as it helps to keep up accuracy on an easier chart but very light jumpstream could be, at most, debatable. This mostly just goes on for 4K I would argue, I feel on 7K not having chords on hards might be asking for too much but I am not a 7K charter myself so not sure.
abraker
Do you guys these pattern are to much for hard 7k diffs:




Basically anything that requires extreme finger independence. I feel that's a thing for insane diffs and up


I also think there should something against making slider velocity high for too long. I see nothing disallowing a mapper from applying x1.5 for one minute in normal diffs unless I glossed over something

Okoratu wrote:

This is the current status of debate after they reached a deadlock. They wanted to allow semi-dumps but couldnt come up with criteria for them
I would describe such pattern as "patterns that don't follow any specific sounds within music, but instead the sound intensity, timbre , pitch, etc or a mix of any in a generalized manner". I don't think the definition is concrete, but it can offer grounds to stand on.
Maxus

abraker wrote:

I also think there should something against making slider velocity high for too long. I see nothing disallowing a mapper from applying x1.5 for one minute in normal diffs unless I glossed over something
Do you mean this?
Because even in expert diff, the rule says it can't apply long-term SV for more than 1.1x
lenpai
do make a distinction as to which keymodes certain terminologies are more commonly used. Future modders using the term js while modding a 7k chart can be ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

EDIT: Ill check out the while draft soon but rn forcing in Easies sounds p awful to me. At least for spreads that showcase at least two X diffs (in terms of actual difficulty and not necessarily SR) for the same keycount as an easy would definitely not work with how the music would turn out to be.
abraker

Maxus wrote:

abraker wrote:

I also think there should something against making slider velocity high for too long. I see nothing disallowing a mapper from applying x1.5 for one minute in normal diffs unless I glossed over something
Do you mean this?
Because even in expert diff, the rule says it can't apply long-term SV for more than 1.1x
Those are in guidelines, not rules. Still allows an edgy mapper to argue for it
Feerum
Woa so much stuff already. Good to see people discussing and giving feedback. I gonna reply to some. Not to all because.. it's really a lot. But i try to reply to much as possible as soon as possible!

Mentholzzz wrote:

Note that Easy difficulties MUST be present in a mapset for it to be rankable. "you start to know how to read and press simple patterns" is the mindset this difficulty follows.
The current raking criteria said that " Single-mode mapsets must include a reasonable spread of at least two difficulties. The lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Normal and it must comply with its respective mode’s difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria. " Wouldn't it cause a conflict ?
Also if this ranking criteria become real, the 2.00* diffculty rule will be gone , rite ?
Okay so, the sense behind this was because o!m has a really really really harsh learning curve.. Easy diffs give a nice starting for o!m, sadly these get skipped way to often and we don't have that many proper easy diffs which also have pattern like a easy diff should have. With the difficult specific criteria we kinda show how a easy should look so new people get a proper start into the Mode.
I mean, it was a risky step of us but we thought we try it and see what the community say's to it. Ofc it causes a problem with the General Ranking Criteria and should be majority be fine with this step, it has to be re-written to fit to the Mania criteria.

But two weeks are long and we are open for any polite discussion and feedback regarding this step!

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Rivals_7 wrote:

General
>Rules
Different key amounts within a mapset must be treated as different gamemodes and require a respective independent difficulty spread. Therefore each key amount must have an independent difficulty spread. For example if you want to add a 7K difficulty to your set, you must design a whole 7K spread. If you want to add an additional 4K difficulty to your set, you must also design a whole 4K spread.

You can't use uninherited timing sections when there is no actual BPM changes. In other words, you can't use uninherited timing sections slowly to change the scrolling speed. Use inherited timing sections and SV changes instead.

This seems to be missing completely, and its actually pretty important. is it intentional or the whole draft was meant as an additional to the current one we have?

>Guidelines
Only use breaks when they are necessary, for example an absolute silent period within the song.

You should use at least two different key amounts for your set. It is suggested to make your set more accessible to a wider audience.

Different key amounts within a mapset should have a similiar difficulty spread. This is to keep parity between different key amounts and satisfy different key amount players.

I think these should also be mentioned as well
>I actually thought the stuff with different o!m keymodes are treated as different modes is already somewhere written. Here or in the general criteria.. If not we will def. add this because it's indeed an important point.
>About using uninherited timing points.. this is pretty much covered in the General Criteria.
>The Break stuff is kinda redundant. People know how to set Break Times and stuff like this almost never happend in the past.
>Two Keymodes. So, Guidelines will work like "Guidelines may be violated under exceptional circumstances". If we add this, every mapper must explain why he didn't add another keymode to his set. This guideline seem also redundant for us.
>Same spread for different keymodes is indeed something that we should add into the draft. Not only as Guideline but as Rule. It is kinda an "unwritten rule" already. It actually wonder me that no one abused this in the past already :v But yes, will be added!

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@Sinnoh. Thanks for the feedback and correcting the woring a little bit! Uhh.. quoting you would make this thread so incredibly long. We will def. re-work the term definition to make it a little bit more clear.

About 10K. It is not supported in the osu! client. 10K get's automatically converted into 5+5K (Dual Stage). You can't even set your o!m editor to 10K without editing the .osu. That's not how it should work. Lazer will maybe support 10K, should be this the case i see no reason why 10K should not be rankable. But for now it can't be.

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Virtue- wrote:

i dont think we need beginner difficulty for some reasons :

1. whats the different between beginner and easy difficulty? i think the gap between isnt too much and what we need in a rankable mapset is an easy difficulty that has been stated before. I know its not a must to put beginner difficulty in our mapset, but its kinda trigged me if anyone put beginner difficulty and easy on his/her map. like, its completely useless because they're both almost the same.

3. And if its a MUST to put beginner difficulty on the mapset, i think you need to reconsider this again. Lets say that we make an easy and simple song (eg. R3 Music Box) how can you make a beginner difficulty for that song? i mean, easy and normal difficulty is quite enough (you can make it harder tho)

thats all i want to say, please correct me if my argue or the way i thought about it is wrong. thank you!
Let me reply to point 1 and 3 only. So first of all. Beginner difficulties are not required for a rankable spread. I think it's also stated pretty big in the draft. We simply thought it could be a cool idea because even a lot of current ranked Easy difficulties are simply too hard for a low of newbies.
Guess that answers both points at once :D.

----

Okay that were some of them. I will reply another time to the other and, hopefully new posts.
But i hope i could explain some stuff!
lenpai
ok my time for my personal take on some stuff

this post may reiterate what i have said in my previous post

- make a distinction as to which terms are more commonly used in certain keycounts. Reading the term brackets for 7k and js for 4k when future modders use these terms can be eeeeeh
- add hyperlinks for more advanced terms like brackets which can cover a lot of examples. Images can be easily acquired here t/146615
- shields can both mean a regular note followed by an ln or an ln followed by a regular note. Though in modding i usually call the latter reverse shields.
Chords should be placed in a way that the player hits it with only one hand. That way, the player would require less hand coordination and would make the pattern easier to play. not necessary for higher keycounts as developing finger independence plays a very important factor in improvement. On can argue that a [26] would be more practical to use in isolation than a [12] or [67] (7k example). Just not a huge fan of this actually being in guidelines
Note that Easy difficulties MUST be present in a mapset for it to be rankable. "you start to know how to read and press simple patterns" is the mindset this difficulty follows. the <2* SR rule was already kinda bad enough and now forcing easies on specific music is not very nice. Maybe abandon the need for easies on spreads that contain 2 or more X diffs (to be approached on a case by case basis cause SR inflation exists)

Note snappings of 1/4 and above are disallowed. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game. I dont think it is sensible to overall ban 1/4 especially when easy diffs are going to be forced on very technical music that may contain isolated 1/4 snap sounds.The ruling should be "two 1/4 notes in succession (or any snap higher) are prohibited" as techical music exists
refer to second point in normal but for 1/6ths
likewise but for 1/8ths

Do not place any chords in the middle of streams. this should be a guideline my ranked chart breeze Hard is a suitable counteratgument to this

if the remaining rules will rely 100% on spread progression rather than SR, then im good with the remaining points.
Lirai

Feerum wrote:

Okay so, the sense behind this was because o!m has a really really really harsh learning curve.. Easy diffs give a nice starting for o!m, sadly these get skipped way to often and we don't have that many proper easy diffs which also have pattern like a easy diff should have. With the difficult specific criteria we kinda show how a easy should look so new people get a proper start into the Mode.
I mean, it was a risky step of us but we thought we try it and see what the community say's to it. Ofc it causes a problem with the General Ranking Criteria and should be majority be fine with this step, it has to be re-written to fit to the Mania criteria.
Yes, i kinda agree with this, since new players they mostly play a converts easy difficulty and then found really hard and bad pattern after they climbed through advanced diff (for example random mini jack, shield, etc) which is mostly used in insane difficulty. having mapped properly like most of ranked mania maps could guide properly to play osumania. tho we can map 2 Normal or Hard escalating

In some cases we can skip to map beginner diff, like high bpm song. If the song can provide beginner snap like 1/2 or 1/1 i think it's really recommended to create it.
lenpai
imo you'd have to be a super casual player to even consider sub 2s* a skill wall. If anything, i believe it is getting used to the game engine that's more tasking than actual finger coordination (8k+ being an exception).

(this next paragraph will stray away from the RC discussion but i felt the need to add it)
Converts are bad yes, but I guess a way we can prevent some people who start off with converts are and looking forward to improve would be to create an updated 4k/7k version of t/147552 kinda like t/175867 but without the need of pattern practice. But that's a different topic.

I'm ok with less difficult (up to NHIX) spreads as an example (which is the majority of ranked) having an E diff but it shouldnt really be forced everywhere. That way, most of future spreads will fulfill this requirement of catering well to newbies without having very erratic music charted inappropriately.
Arzenvald
2 cent about easy diff : for most mappers who raises their voice regarding Easy diff shouldn't be a rule, there's a huge scope of community who doesn't raises their voice that possibly struggling with mania mapset being 'too hard' for normal diff as easiest diff in set.
i think they will appreciate if the map having easy diff to learn how to play the basic rhythm.. don't be discouraged (or lazy) to map easy diff for the community

(also consistency with other modes esp. osu!standard and osu!taiko)
abraker

Arzenvald wrote:

i think they will appreciate if the map having easy diff to learn how to play the basic rhythm..
Makes sense on paper, but when I started out I mostly played autoconverts and didn't touch mania maps. I played autoconverts because that's what most of the weeb anime music was at and the extremely low OD (OD2 maybe 4) made it easy to just have fun playing maps for songs I liked. It was maybe 3 months in when I was at 2* level that I started playing mania maps to improve my skills. That's is pretty much normal difficulty. Half year in I was already trying 3* maps. I don't remember playing easy maps that were not autoconverts. I don't.

Bottom line, for casually playing, autoconverts suffice. Otherwise, you are very likely to be at normal difficulty when you realize you want to improve skill.
Arzenvald

uhh
Eraser
^ Should reword it to either LN length or Distance between LN
or add "Spacing" to the glossary section
Arzenvald
Looks like a quiet game-changing rule, with every LN should never be connected one to each other with 1/1 space between LN object

Tell me if im wrong
lenpai

Arzenvald wrote:

Looks like a quiet game-changing rule, with every LN should never be connected one to each other with 1/1 space between LN object

Tell me if im wrong
i believe that shouldnt be the case because

Normal Rule wrote:

Long notes across all columns must have a minimum spacing of 1/2 beats. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a normal player to keep up with the release timings. Spacing of 1/4 is an exception as it’s allowed only for shield patterns for this level of difficulty
that means normal cant also have that kind of note usage and that's kinda dumb. please tell me this isnt actually the case

i personally interpret that, for easy, any ln length 1/1 or longer can be followed up by another note after release. If not, this should be the revised wording
Arzenvald
also whether the spacing applies only for any object after the LN release, or also for any object before LN hit?

i mean, future Easy diff will be :

rankable :



unrankable :



rankable :



unrankable :



wew
Evening
I kind of want to get into the discussion of this but I don't see any progress/revisions on the draft

I'm wondering who is the person to even direct questions to for this discussion

What stage is this proposal at, will it be finalized after 6th of April? (The discussion period is way too tight if you are stopping at 6th april)
Who are the people reviewing and updating the changes?

E: I think a channel on discord can work better than a thread anyways
Arzenvald
tried to open discussion in discord but bleh
Easy Rule :
> Long notes at the same column must have a minimum spacing of 2/1 beats. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a player to keep up with the release timings.
> Long notes across all columns must have a minimum spacing of 1/1 beats. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a player to keep up with the release timings.
after i re-read the draft, this rule appears to be applies ONLY for 2 or more consecutive Long Notes, yes?
in other word this rule doesn't applies for Long Note & Note, correct?
Topic Starter
Okoratu
@evening, i want to collect all we can and then revise

idk what the mania peeps want, but directing this to my pms or any of their pms is wrong, i'll just tell you to post here because otherwise it'll be like "fucking oko forgot to put this shit into the draft that i posted him in pm on the 15th of March"
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