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[Proposal] osu!mania Ranking Criteria (whole draft)

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Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Woa so much stuff already. Good to see people discussing and giving feedback. I gonna reply to some. Not to all because.. it's really a lot. But i try to reply to much as possible as soon as possible!

Mentholzzz wrote:

Note that Easy difficulties MUST be present in a mapset for it to be rankable. "you start to know how to read and press simple patterns" is the mindset this difficulty follows.
The current raking criteria said that " Single-mode mapsets must include a reasonable spread of at least two difficulties. The lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Normal and it must comply with its respective mode’s difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria. " Wouldn't it cause a conflict ?
Also if this ranking criteria become real, the 2.00* diffculty rule will be gone , rite ?
Okay so, the sense behind this was because o!m has a really really really harsh learning curve.. Easy diffs give a nice starting for o!m, sadly these get skipped way to often and we don't have that many proper easy diffs which also have pattern like a easy diff should have. With the difficult specific criteria we kinda show how a easy should look so new people get a proper start into the Mode.
I mean, it was a risky step of us but we thought we try it and see what the community say's to it. Ofc it causes a problem with the General Ranking Criteria and should be majority be fine with this step, it has to be re-written to fit to the Mania criteria.

But two weeks are long and we are open for any polite discussion and feedback regarding this step!

----

Rivals_7 wrote:

General
>Rules
Different key amounts within a mapset must be treated as different gamemodes and require a respective independent difficulty spread. Therefore each key amount must have an independent difficulty spread. For example if you want to add a 7K difficulty to your set, you must design a whole 7K spread. If you want to add an additional 4K difficulty to your set, you must also design a whole 4K spread.

You can't use uninherited timing sections when there is no actual BPM changes. In other words, you can't use uninherited timing sections slowly to change the scrolling speed. Use inherited timing sections and SV changes instead.

This seems to be missing completely, and its actually pretty important. is it intentional or the whole draft was meant as an additional to the current one we have?

>Guidelines
Only use breaks when they are necessary, for example an absolute silent period within the song.

You should use at least two different key amounts for your set. It is suggested to make your set more accessible to a wider audience.

Different key amounts within a mapset should have a similiar difficulty spread. This is to keep parity between different key amounts and satisfy different key amount players.

I think these should also be mentioned as well
>I actually thought the stuff with different o!m keymodes are treated as different modes is already somewhere written. Here or in the general criteria.. If not we will def. add this because it's indeed an important point.
>About using uninherited timing points.. this is pretty much covered in the General Criteria.
>The Break stuff is kinda redundant. People know how to set Break Times and stuff like this almost never happend in the past.
>Two Keymodes. So, Guidelines will work like "Guidelines may be violated under exceptional circumstances". If we add this, every mapper must explain why he didn't add another keymode to his set. This guideline seem also redundant for us.
>Same spread for different keymodes is indeed something that we should add into the draft. Not only as Guideline but as Rule. It is kinda an "unwritten rule" already. It actually wonder me that no one abused this in the past already :v But yes, will be added!

----

@Sinnoh. Thanks for the feedback and correcting the woring a little bit! Uhh.. quoting you would make this thread so incredibly long. We will def. re-work the term definition to make it a little bit more clear.

About 10K. It is not supported in the osu! client. 10K get's automatically converted into 5+5K (Dual Stage). You can't even set your o!m editor to 10K without editing the .osu. That's not how it should work. Lazer will maybe support 10K, should be this the case i see no reason why 10K should not be rankable. But for now it can't be.

----

Virtue- wrote:

i dont think we need beginner difficulty for some reasons :

1. whats the different between beginner and easy difficulty? i think the gap between isnt too much and what we need in a rankable mapset is an easy difficulty that has been stated before. I know its not a must to put beginner difficulty in our mapset, but its kinda trigged me if anyone put beginner difficulty and easy on his/her map. like, its completely useless because they're both almost the same.

3. And if its a MUST to put beginner difficulty on the mapset, i think you need to reconsider this again. Lets say that we make an easy and simple song (eg. R3 Music Box) how can you make a beginner difficulty for that song? i mean, easy and normal difficulty is quite enough (you can make it harder tho)

thats all i want to say, please correct me if my argue or the way i thought about it is wrong. thank you!
Let me reply to point 1 and 3 only. So first of all. Beginner difficulties are not required for a rankable spread. I think it's also stated pretty big in the draft. We simply thought it could be a cool idea because even a lot of current ranked Easy difficulties are simply too hard for a low of newbies.
Guess that answers both points at once :D.

----

Okay that were some of them. I will reply another time to the other and, hopefully new posts.
But i hope i could explain some stuff!
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,772 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
ok my time for my personal take on some stuff

this post may reiterate what i have said in my previous post

patterns
- make a distinction as to which terms are more commonly used in certain keycounts. Reading the term brackets for 7k and js for 4k when future modders use these terms can be eeeeeh
- add hyperlinks for more advanced terms like brackets which can cover a lot of examples. Images can be easily acquired here t/146615
- shields can both mean a regular note followed by an ln or an ln followed by a regular note. Though in modding i usually call the latter reverse shields.

beginner
Chords should be placed in a way that the player hits it with only one hand. That way, the player would require less hand coordination and would make the pattern easier to play. not necessary for higher keycounts as developing finger independence plays a very important factor in improvement. On can argue that a [26] would be more practical to use in isolation than a [12] or [67] (7k example). Just not a huge fan of this actually being in guidelines

easy
Note that Easy difficulties MUST be present in a mapset for it to be rankable. "you start to know how to read and press simple patterns" is the mindset this difficulty follows. the <2* SR rule was already kinda bad enough and now forcing easies on specific music is not very nice. Maybe abandon the need for easies on spreads that contain 2 or more X diffs (to be approached on a case by case basis cause SR inflation exists)

Note snappings of 1/4 and above are disallowed. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game. I dont think it is sensible to overall ban 1/4 especially when easy diffs are going to be forced on very technical music that may contain isolated 1/4 snap sounds.The ruling should be "two 1/4 notes in succession (or any snap higher) are prohibited" as techical music exists

normal
refer to second point in normal but for 1/6ths

hard
likewise but for 1/8ths

Do not place any chords in the middle of streams. this should be a guideline my ranked chart breeze Hard is a suitable counteratgument to this

if the remaining rules will rely 100% on spread progression rather than SR, then im good with the remaining points.
Lirai
1,514 posts
Joined December 2013
Lirai

Feerum wrote:

Okay so, the sense behind this was because o!m has a really really really harsh learning curve.. Easy diffs give a nice starting for o!m, sadly these get skipped way to often and we don't have that many proper easy diffs which also have pattern like a easy diff should have. With the difficult specific criteria we kinda show how a easy should look so new people get a proper start into the Mode.
I mean, it was a risky step of us but we thought we try it and see what the community say's to it. Ofc it causes a problem with the General Ranking Criteria and should be majority be fine with this step, it has to be re-written to fit to the Mania criteria.
Yes, i kinda agree with this, since new players they mostly play a converts easy difficulty and then found really hard and bad pattern after they climbed through advanced diff (for example random mini jack, shield, etc) which is mostly used in insane difficulty. having mapped properly like most of ranked mania maps could guide properly to play osumania. tho we can map 2 Normal or Hard escalating

In some cases we can skip to map beginner diff, like high bpm song. If the song can provide beginner snap like 1/2 or 1/1 i think it's really recommended to create it.
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,772 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
imo you'd have to be a super casual player to even consider sub 2s* a skill wall. If anything, i believe it is getting used to the game engine that's more tasking than actual finger coordination (8k+ being an exception).

(this next paragraph will stray away from the RC discussion but i felt the need to add it)
Converts are bad yes, but I guess a way we can prevent some people who start off with converts are and looking forward to improve would be to create an updated 4k/7k version of t/147552 kinda like t/175867 but without the need of pattern practice. But that's a different topic.

I'm ok with less difficult (up to NHIX) spreads as an example (which is the majority of ranked) having an E diff but it shouldnt really be forced everywhere. That way, most of future spreads will fulfill this requirement of catering well to newbies without having very erratic music charted inappropriately.
Last edited by lenpai , edited 1 time in total.
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
2 cent about easy diff : for most mappers who raises their voice regarding Easy diff shouldn't be a rule, there's a huge scope of community who doesn't raises their voice that possibly struggling with mania mapset being 'too hard' for normal diff as easiest diff in set.
i think they will appreciate if the map having easy diff to learn how to play the basic rhythm.. don't be discouraged (or lazy) to map easy diff for the community

(also consistency with other modes esp. osu!standard and osu!taiko)
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Arzenvald wrote:

i think they will appreciate if the map having easy diff to learn how to play the basic rhythm..
Makes sense on paper, but when I started out I mostly played autoconverts and didn't touch mania maps. I played autoconverts because that's what most of the weeb anime music was at and the extremely low OD (OD2 maybe 4) made it easy to just have fun playing maps for songs I liked. It was maybe 3 months in when I was at 2* level that I started playing mania maps to improve my skills. That's is pretty much normal difficulty. Half year in I was already trying 3* maps. I don't remember playing easy maps that were not autoconverts. I don't.

Bottom line, for casually playing, autoconverts suffice. Otherwise, you are very likely to be at normal difficulty when you realize you want to improve skill.
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald

uhh
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
^ Should reword it to either LN length or Distance between LN
or add "Spacing" to the glossary section
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
Looks like a quiet game-changing rule, with every LN should never be connected one to each other with 1/1 space between LN object

Tell me if im wrong
Last edited by Arzenvald , edited 1 time in total.
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,772 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai

Arzenvald wrote:

Looks like a quiet game-changing rule, with every LN should never be connected one to each other with 1/1 space between LN object

Tell me if im wrong
i believe that shouldnt be the case because

Normal Rule wrote:

Long notes across all columns must have a minimum spacing of 1/2 beats. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a normal player to keep up with the release timings. Spacing of 1/4 is an exception as it’s allowed only for shield patterns for this level of difficulty
that means normal cant also have that kind of note usage and that's kinda dumb. please tell me this isnt actually the case

i personally interpret that, for easy, any ln length 1/1 or longer can be followed up by another note after release. If not, this should be the revised wording
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
also whether the spacing applies only for any object after the LN release, or also for any object before LN hit?

i mean, future Easy diff will be :

rankable :



unrankable :



rankable :



unrankable :



wew
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Evening
I kind of want to get into the discussion of this but I don't see any progress/revisions on the draft

I'm wondering who is the person to even direct questions to for this discussion

What stage is this proposal at, will it be finalized after 6th of April? (The discussion period is way too tight if you are stopping at 6th april)
Who are the people reviewing and updating the changes?

E: I think a channel on discord can work better than a thread anyways
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
tried to open discussion in discord but bleh
Easy Rule :
> Long notes at the same column must have a minimum spacing of 2/1 beats. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a player to keep up with the release timings.
> Long notes across all columns must have a minimum spacing of 1/1 beats. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a player to keep up with the release timings.
after i re-read the draft, this rule appears to be applies ONLY for 2 or more consecutive Long Notes, yes?
in other word this rule doesn't applies for Long Note & Note, correct?
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu
@evening, i want to collect all we can and then revise

idk what the mania peeps want, but directing this to my pms or any of their pms is wrong, i'll just tell you to post here because otherwise it'll be like "fucking oko forgot to put this shit into the draft that i posted him in pm on the 15th of March"
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Okay. Sorry for the late reply. The Rules right now about the long notes do not include enough clarification that stuff like this is still okay:

Screen


Having the LN start on the same timestamp like the previous ending will be still a thing. Because these are of course waaaaaay easier to play than pressing - releasing - (short time later) pressing again.

The idea behind that was to give the play in easy diffs enough time to actually see/realize what is going on and enough time to react to this.

For that the "minimum spacing". But we indeed should add something about it that pressing/releasing at the same time is still okay.

Now about Notesnapping within Easy: You can still place notes on 1/4 beats. You just can't place two or more following in 1/4.
To show it. This would be okay:
Screen


Stuff like this again not:
Screen


Mh.. maybe writing this out more clear would help. We just thought "Minimum Spacing between notes [..]" would sound even worse.
Last edited by Feerum , edited 1 time in total.
shionelove
1,521 posts
Joined September 2010
shionelove
i'm sure all of pattern rules are going to destroy enjoyment.
reducing notes to create easier diffs will cause these things
:boring maps,same patterns and same rhythms from R3 Music Box to goreshit.
:uncomfortable rhythm structures not only for beginners but players who like to get 1m score.

i always say,if there is a overmap which is made for harder diffs,there is a undermap which is made for easier diffs,too.
i strongly recommend remove these pattern rules,or at least move them guideline,or o!m is going to be dead.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

shionelove wrote:

:boring maps,same patterns and same rhythms from R3 Music Box to goreshit.
:uncomfortable rhythm structures not only for beginners but players who like to get 1m score.

i always say,if there is a overmap which is made for harder diffs,there is a undermap which is made for easier diffs,too.
i strongly recommend remove these pattern rules,or at least move them guideline,or o!m is going to be dead.
The way I see it, these rules serve as something to say how to name the difficulties correctly. It is very possible to make a 3.7* hard and a 5.2* hard just because of how broken the star rating is. Nobody is preventing you from making the patterns you want to make. They just fall under a category.
Protastic101
Elite Nominator
1,160 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
Thanks for the input guys. We've taken your suggestions and will soon discuss and incorporate them into the amended RC. Stay tuned!
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu
Hi!

the draft is now up to date from this round of feedback, we'll leave it open for two more weeks to gather some more!

Check out the draft over at https://gist.github.com/Okorin/1a5f5d6f489494c26b8a4fec13ba69ba

BIG DISCLAIMER BEFORE I GET SPAMMED AGAIN:
i do not play mania, please do not address stuff pertaining to the details of this draft to me directly i dont know what half these concepts mean
error_exe777
720 posts
Joined February 2016
error_exe777
after skimming through it mostly seems okay because most of them are guidelines :^)

one thing i'd recommend adding however is "Hand" and "Handstream" to the common terms, meaning "Three notes played at the same time" and "A stream interlaced with hands" respectively, since they are pretty big terms that are chucked around quite frequently.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Only inherited timing points are allowed to create slider velocity changes. Take caution as chart readability gets heavily affected when using higher slider velocity values. These should also be snapped to a rhythm divisible by the snapping of the present notes. For example, 1/2 notes would ideally utilize 1/4, 1/8, or 1/16 snappings, as opposed to 1/3.


Why is this a guideline exactly? I really don't see that you have any choice, as using redlines for anything else but defining the timing of a song is not allowed?

Note snappings of consecutive 1/4 and higher should not be present in this difficulty level. This essentially means that there must be at least more than ¼ of a beat of distance between every note. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game.


Really? As guideline? I am happy to see the cases where an Easy can have consecutive 1/4 notes, unless the BPM is like 80. Why is there no bpm threshold whatsoever?

Note snappings of 1/6 and above should not be used. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game.


Wait, you actually are fine with 1/4 in Normals? You are aware that Normals are the difficulty that is the lowest mandatory level for a mapset, right? That means that this kind of difficulty must be suitable for any person, even newcomers that never ever ever ever touched osu!mania before. This game mode already suffers massively from the horrible difficulty spike that people experience between Normal and Hard and Normals being WAY too dense. It's ironic how you mention an easy start off for beginners and then allow stuff that only advanced people can play that are already familiar with the game itself.

People playing Normals and Easys are challenged by the game's mechanics itself and do not need to be overly challenged by the beatmap itself, too. These thresholds altogether only make sense when you imbue a BPM limit, but 190bpm Normals with 1/4 is not a Normal, it's already a Hard. Generally, these entire steeps from Easy to Normal to Hard to Insane need all to be toned down by one step, Easys should have 1/1 at most, Normals 1/2, Hards 1/4 and Insanes whatever. Unless you make clear that this only applies to a certain amount of notes within a certain BPM range.

That you added this note density rule afterwards is a perfect contradiction to what you did anyways.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu
Ah the thing we forgot doing was defining what additional stuff would apply if the normal is the lowest difficulty in a mapset

second thing (the 1/4 and 1/6 thing) is a guideline for it to be flexibly scalable downwards and upwards - that doesn't really work with rules without coming up with some millisecond limit, in that sense the note density guideline isn't really contradicting the rest though

I can't comment on the other stuff like the values themselves because i dont actually know how to play a piano
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,950 posts
Joined April 2014
Xinnoh
Expert
Long note release timings should use similar snaps than their press timings
Why is this not in the general section? It makes no sense for any diff to have LNs end on 1/4 if the song is in 1/6

hand isn't defined anywhere
Hydria
1,229 posts
Joined April 2011
Hydria
Time to cover objective stuff to fix up this doc a bit

Common Terms

Jack: A small number of consecutive notes in the same column, usually performed at a faster pace compared to surrounding notes.


A mini-jack is a small number of consecutive notes (2/3), a jack is any number (above 1) of consecutive notes (all minijacks are jacks but not all jacks are minijacks). This needs fixing because of

Stream: A constant supply of notes with the same intervals that do not repeat to create a mini-jack.


There is no definition of a mini-jack in this document.

Long note: A note that must be held and released within a precise timing window.


Should be noted that this can also be referred to as an LN.

Release: The end of a long note which must be released within a certain timing 1.1window to score the entirety of the note properly.


Why is there a random 1.1 here?

Inverse: A type of pattern that replaces all regular notes with long notes in a given section. Typically enough long notes to cover a majority of the playfield with holds.


Holds are long notes so I don't know why two different terms are being used here, definitely since holds aren't defined in this document either.

Difficulty Specific: Easy: Guidelines

Long notes across all columns should have a minimum spacing of 1/1 beats from the time it is first pressed.
Long notes at the same column should have a minimum spacing of 2/1 beats from the time it is first pressed. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a player to keep up with the release timings.


This is unclear on what it's trying to define, is it saying that LNs should have a length of 1/1 or that there should be a gap of 1/1 between LNs? It seems so confusing since it refers to the start of an LN and not the end. What is the intent here? This problem also exists in the normal section.

Difficulty Specific: Normal: Guidelines

Long notes across all columns must have a minimum spacing of 1/2 beats from the first press. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a normal player to keep up with the release timings.**


Again with the random symbols that don't need to be there.
Last edited by Hydria , edited 1 time in total.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu
assume most of these are because i suck at copy pasting XD
tatatat
905 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
I think there should be some sort of guidelines if the Normal difficulty is the lowest difficulty in the set, perhaps about long streams of 1/2 notes?
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,772 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
180 bpm reference for RC is kinda high. Would work better with 160 imo where 200+ would have less leniency in terms of consecutive 1/2 to 1/4ths for lower end difficulties
tatatat
905 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
I would assume the base BPM to be 175bpm.
Kawawa
Kawawa
well about this.
Difficulty Specific
Difficulty-specific rules and guidelines do only apply to the difficulty level they are listed for and therefore do not apply to every osu!mania difficulty. Rhythm related guidelines apply to approximately 180 BPM maps. If your song is drastically faster or slower, some variables might be different. Apply reasonable judgement in these cases.
160 is better imo. although the average has up since there are many 4K speed cores, but we have to think about the average genre and all keys.

Difficulty Specific
Normal
Long streams of 1/2 notes should only be limited to 16 notes as these can become too physically demanding for players at this level. A way to alleviate that would be adding 1/1 breaks so players can have an easier gameplay experience.
Hard
Avoid 1/4 streams made of more than 16 notes. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level
Insane
Avoid 1/8 streams made of more than 8 notes. Streams of this type of snap are harder to pull off than snaps at the lower end, and as such should only be used if the song warrants it.
It's cool idea for each players but don't think why It needs to be limited by "number"
here I know the bringing up ranked map is not valid, nevertheless many ranked maps are already used over 16 note in 1/2th.
as an example, for the normal :: http://puu.sh/AP04b/1ea01ff289.jpg
It's a part of the touch the angel, yeah it already exceeds over 16 notes as we can see.
but I don't think it is unfair something and nothing wrong the music. It's as whole working well without problem.

what I mean, even If the rhythm really needs to be repeated in 1/2 by structure of the song, we should stop after 16 notes?
It can lead be a problem of potential quality due to change of weird rhythm in my opinion.
so the map naturally should focus on providing a rest rather than artificially creating a rest.
Garalulu
933 posts
Joined March 2011
Garalulu
agreed with kawawa. Setting the limitation of note amount is little bit weird. It's more like focusing on mapping literally, not structure of the song.

what I mean, even If the rhythm really needs to be repeated in 1/2 by structure of the song, we should stop after 16 notes?
It can lead be a problem of potential quality due to change of weird rhythm in my opinion.
so the map naturally should focus on providing a rest rather than artificially creating a rest.
We should consider the concept of song more, counting the streams makes weird the end of stream and the artificial rest time. Little bit exaggerated, It can even makes the each maps look same thing if they are same bpm.

I don't think that limitation is really needed. It just disallow the way of various patterning and makes the mapper get preconception before mapping, because it is written by RC and it means "you shouldn't do it basically" even though it's guideline and it means we don't have to follow it.

The limitation of stream amount shouldn't be placed on RC, rule or guideline wherever tho, it's pretty big regulation.
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,772 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
EDIT: o it’s a guideline w/e then lmfao

wew prolly glanced over the note hard caps

setting those is kinda eh

since the intention of these is to avoid unnecessary or really huge diffspikes in charts. Accounting for how difficult the chart is overall should be the better move
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
No inverse patterns is a rule on hard diff but not normal and easy?
Also can common terms be alphabetically sorted?
Protastic101
Elite Nominator
1,160 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
Regarding the note limitations in difficulties, it is a guideline, but what we hoped to achieve with them is that mappers will be able to insert a small rest (like one beat) in between long 1/2 streams when natural in order to avoid straining the player too much, and to give them a checkpoint of sorts if they're starting to become overwhelmed by all the notes. This can be changed though to be more dependent on musical phrasing as opposed to a hard limitation of a certain number of notes though.
Kawawa
Kawawa
This is a guideline for new mappers so I thought that it will be a mindblock to them in the process of map. since there was an exact setting.
so thought it might be better to explain the other way rather than number setting. anyway seems what we hope is the same.
tatatat
905 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
I agree it would be better to phrase it like "after x/1 of continuous [1/2] mapping, include a rest moment of at least X length"
DDMythical
DDMythical
ugh

there are many flaws in this current draft of RC. most of which stem from the fact that this RC tries to awkwardly double up as an introductory charting-guide alongside an objective set of rules for what is rankable or not. in my opinion, it should not cover explicits in its charting guide segements, but rather explain the implicits around charting with regards to overarching techniques that are almost entirely colloquially accepted by the charting community (such as intensity congruency, or sound representation.) As of now, some of the things written in RC are incorrectly advising people on how to chart, and forcing unnecessary restrictions on charts.

bpm
why is 180bpm picked as the standard for what measures are determined as too difficult for the player at any given level, if anything, pick 150 - it divides much better into certain bpms which are common at certain difficulty levels:
1/4 = 150
1/6 = 200
1/8 = 300
1/12 = 400
as opposed to:
1/4 = 180
1/6 = 270
1/8 = 360
1/12 = 540
which are significantly more illogical.


rules and sv

Slider velocity changes that alter the scrolling speed of the map are disallowed. An exception to this rule would be creating slider velocity changes to unify the scroll speed in BPM-variable maps. Scroll normalization is mandatory and must be done in maps with variable BPM.

would https://osu.ppy.sh/s/704987 be regarded as an exception to this rule? This should not be a rule; it should be a guideline, and, if that, this presumes a congruency between physical difficulty (what star rating assesses, and determines whether the difficulty is an easy/normal/whatever) and visual/mental difficulty, with regards to svs. There is no major correlation between these two factors. A chart that is harder physically does not mean it is better suited for harsher svs than a chart physically lighter. In fact, it's the complete opposite. Looking at some of the most popular harsh sv charts in the game (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/572000 - Coinage
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/723624 - Back Of The Yards
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/108708 - dEKA
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/591171 - Groundhog
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/415946 - Chloroplast Skin
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/673208 - Cycles)
you can see that most, if not all of them, fall around a low difficulty range relative to the ability necessary to learn the SVs. As such, no explicit rule should be included which dictates congruency between physical ability and SVs, I don't disagree with it being a guideline, but even-so, it's presented in a sense which implies that as your chart is harder physically, it becomes better to use harsher svs, when, in reality, it is the complete converse. this is harmful to new charters.


snap guidelines

these are arbitrary and an extremely stupid way to dictate what is expected of players around x skill level. The best way to do this would involve looking at the rough patternical levels at x skill level, and dictating what is regarded as "too difficult" for players at that skill level.
if anything, this should entirely be up to bn discretion for what constitutes as too difficult for a difficulty level, but hey.

Note snappings of 1/6 and above should not be used. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game.


what is absurd about this, is that absolutely no time frame (or note frame) is dictated. A 1/6 in isolation is absolutely no harder than a 1/1 in isolation, or a 1/16th in isolation, or a 1/10000 in isolation; context is extremely important with regards to difficulty as, on their own, every note is equal in physical difficulty.

What is not accounted here, at all, is patterning. Even if you were to include a time-frame for difficulty (lets say, 10 notes) the difference between a 1/6 10 note 2h trill and a 1/6 10 note 1h trill is huge, and this rule has absolutely no dictation between the two. What you'd need to do for this rule to make any sense, is to gather data on all common patterns, and assess what BPM they are roughly playable by by a player at this skill level.

I would say, above anything, that common sense, and the dictation of the BNG should decide what is playable, roughly, for players at whatever skill level.

There is almost no way to list what is expected from players at any given skill level due to the huge variation in patterning that can be brought. 250bpm jumpstream for just 1 measure can range from, say, 7dan to luminal; WITH NO SPECIFICITY TO PATTERNING, A RULE BASED ON WHAT SPEED IS EXPECTED FROM PLAYERS AT ANY GIVEN SKILL LEVEL IS, AT BEST, A SHOT IN THE DARK.

as such this rule should be removed; no specification on what snaps are or are not okay for players at any given skill level should be given, as, if anything, it would be almost entirely incorrect as it doesn't account for technical or physical difficulty. it is an arbitrary number - is 1/4 dense chordjacking okay when 1/6 streams are not? I believe almost everyone able to competently play would agree that a 1/6 stream is significantly easier than 1/4 dense chordjacking at the same bpm, yet this guideline dictates that the former is harder than the latter.

So, what should be done instead? Note that it is near-impossible (if not) to truly dictate what is capable by players at a given difficulty level. Even moreso, when the element dicating what is in which skill level is SR, which is absurdly flawed, and should not even be used as a metric for determining anything.

I suggest that, instead of providing objectivity in what BPM is playable, or not playable, by players at a given level (even with regards to patterns), you should explain the difficulty of patterning in the RC; explain concepts such as the difficulty of jacks, as they increase in length, they do not increase linearly but instead exponentially, and as such it should be understood that a chart utilising 2 note long jacks (minijacks) should not suddenly change into 3, or 4 note long jacks, as these are significantly more difficult, despite not being much of a change in patterning. Conveying this to charters reading RC will provide (atleast to some extent) a more competent understanding of the structure of patterning in comparison to other patterns at the same BPM.

Furthermore, explaining that 1H trills are more difficult than 2H trills, because 1H trilling increases in difficulty much faster than 2H trills (300bpm 2H trills are doable by most players at 9/10dan level; 300bpm 1H trills are beyond the peak of any top-tier player for any sustained period of time.) Would be significantly more useful than what is provided now. Then, a rough bpm (WITH LENIENCY) can be provided for each pattern, and then atleast, to some extent, a difficulty level acceptable for each difficulty can be determined.
As example:
Hard (As hard constitutes for 1st dan->4th dan)
Streams should be between 180bpm-230bpm, taking the length of a measure as baseline. Leniency should then be taken dependant on the length of the stream, longer streams increase the difficulty in stamina, so they should be slower for the same difficulty to apply (a 250 stream extended for a longer period of time would stretch into low/mid-insane) and vice versa. The same leniency should be applied to the technicality of patterns, the more technically challenging a pattern is, the slower it needs to be to exert the same overall difficulty, and vice versa. This leniency should be entirely down to the judgement of the bng.

With this; a basic understanding of difficulty can be presented in the RC.
(if you'd like more numbers for this, i can work them out roughly over the week, but you need to understand that SR is complete garbage, and that hard-level chordjacks may rate a chart as insane, and extra-level longjacks may rate a chart as hard. mania sr is unusably trash.)


long term
Long term slider velocity changes should be in between 0.??x and 1.??x.

I also vehemently disagree with the nature of this rule - the numbers selected for these (0.90/1.05 for normal; 0.75/1.10 for hard; 0.5/1.10 for insane and extra) are completely arbitrary and make almost no consistent sense. Considering the gimmicky nature of SV usage and how it applies over other skillsets, to limit long-standing sv usage which may be contextually acceptable with the concept of the chart is absolutely absurd in my opinion. Like I say above, this takes the physical difficulty of a chart and compares it to the difficulty of the SVs - there are plenty of difficult SV charts that are not physically demanding; the physical aspects of a chart as assessed by SR should have absolutely nothing to do with what SVs are acceptable in your chart, ironically enough, as the physical difficulty of your chart increases. If anything, your SVs should get less effective on the song so as not to overwhelm the player or obscure other concepts at play - but this is tangential.


advanced
Inverse patterns must not be used. They are a very advanced type of pattern and that they require a lot of coordination to properly execute it.

the lack of explanation with regards to what constitutes an "advanced pattern" is painful here. What it should refer to, is to the technicality of a pattern - inverse patterns are technically complex, and, as such, are a higher difficulty than most patterns at the same bpm. This goes for OHTrills, polyrhythms, etc. which are technical. Why this rule is only presented in hard is beyond me, as, logically, it should apply to normal and easy inherently anyway but w/e.
Inverse patterns are also not the only type of "advanced pattern"; all it's specifying is that this pattern is more difficult than other patterns at the same bpm. as such, 50bpm inverse in a 200bpm stream chart is perfectly okay, because it is *that* much slower, the added technicality does not create an unfair difficulty spike. This rule is simply incorrectly labelling technical patterns and not accounting for difficulty properly.


im tired of writing but yeah basically most of what is written in this is actively detrimental to newer charters reading it, as it's actively teaching and conveying concepts that simply are not correct - or undermining/ignoring important concepts (notably with regards to difficulty).
Last edited by DDMythical , edited 1 time in total.
mijkolsmith
297 posts
Joined April 2014
mijkolsmith
Good write up. I especially agree with the snap guidelines, that is unnecessary criteria which doesn't make sense for a lot of maps. I think a better example to show this is the difference between 100 bpm 1/6 and 200 bpm 1/4 instead of the trills.
Protastic101
Elite Nominator
1,160 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
Ok, forgot to lock the thread. I'll address DD's points soon with an edit to this post, but for now, we'll revise the RC to reflect the feedback given here.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoratu
@Protastic: Anything happening over here or can I archive this by virtue of being dead?
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
mania is officially unrankable

(not really but this thread isn't needed anymore)
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