Wafu wrote:

Kroytz wrote:

Why don’t we just allow Unicode characters to be used when submitting beatmaps and we can solve all our problems? (serious)

Because searching would be much more complicated. Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc. and wouldn't find anything in the end.

You could add the alternate romanizations in the tags so that it does pop up when searching tho. If a title had “lüe” then you’d add “lue” and “lve” into the tags and now people can search them. I dunno, seems simpler to do it that way imo. Keep original title, and add the complicated multi-spelling stuff into tags

Wafu wrote:

Kroytz wrote:

Why don’t we just allow Unicode characters to be used when submitting beatmaps and we can solve all our problems? (serious)

Because searching would be much more complicated. Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc. and wouldn't find anything in the end.

CXu wrote:

Similarly, we have æ ø å in Norwegian/Danish (and ä ö å in Swedish) which usually just get changed to ae, o/oe, aa, at least in Norwegian. The ø kinda sounds like the i in first, while å is like the o in old.

Yes, but "ae", "o/oe" and "aa" seem to have a basis in pronunciation, at least. "v" is a choice based on keyboard layout. Which will not be even close if you actually try to pronounce it.

Aa has no relation to the pronounciation of å other than å looking similar to a. There's also still the ll in Spanish for example, which isn't pronounced like what an English speaker would think.

As for the v, I'm pretty sure in older Latin (I think) the letters u and v were interchangeable, so in that sense it's not too non-sensical if we consider it to be a language-specific thing. Many other languages have these things that are pronounced differently, that anyone who wishes to pronounce foreign titles properly, would have to do at least a minimal amount of research anyway.

Regraz wrote:

Wafu wrote:

nobody does that. Majority of people will still write "ü" and if you use the "v" on the pinyin layout, you will end up getting "ü" anyway.

Are you sure nobody does that? And are you sure you will end up getting ü? What do you mean by “pinyin” layout? Input method? Softwares? Human-machine interfaces? If so, why osu! cannot do that? Asserting by vocabularies like “nobody” is not convincing, you might need to provide evidence to support your idea.

Wafu wrote:

Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc. and wouldn't find anything in the end.

So what do you actually mean? You posted "Majority of people will still write ü" while "Majority of people couldn't type characters such as ǔ, ü, etc."

Let's take stuff out of the context again, nice. You can't be serious at this point.

In my response to Fycho, we were talking about Chinese speakers and learners. Of course, this is about the keyboard layout used in pinyin input methods. Why would I use layout in relation to software or human-machine interface, when we talk about inputting characters? These people, who actually use the pinyin input method will press "v", which, on its layout, will allow you to write these Latin characters (not only ü, depends on type of input method, there is not only one) that are not available in regularly used input methods.

osu! cannot do that, because players would have to swap their keyboard input method if they wanted to search for Chinese metadata.

Stop asking for evidence for things that don't require it (you can search any text in pinyin for that). Majority of people (who use pinyin input method, not talking about regular users, in case you wanted to take this out of context again) will use the ü characters, because it's correct and they know how to do it with the pinyin input method. The proof is that most of the Chinese transcribed text available on the internet, does indeed use these characters, in fact, I haven't seen any officially transcribed texts that did use "v" rather than "ü". I have only seen either the classic pinyin method using all the special characters, or replaced with the original character.

My response to Kroytz was about osu! players, not about people who do use pinyin input method. osu! players are generally not able to type these characters because they are not using the pinyin input layout. Stop mixing two irrelevant posts together and taking them out of the context just to "prove me wrong".

@CXu: "u" didn't exist in Old/Classical Latin and "v" was pronounced as "u", indeed. But it's not very likely that people know that to not pronounce it as "v" in modern Latin script. Even if they read that as "u", it wouldn't be very close, that's why the discussion is important and why it's important to just not let it to something so minor as a keyboard layout used in pinyin input methods.

i'm going to start handing out silences with respective length to overall wordcount in posts if people don't start focusing on discussing things that actually matter and helping to push the draft forward

out of "yu" vs "yi" (with the caveat expressed above that "yi" exists in pinyin already) vs "v" (with the caveat that using v as a vowel is a ludicrous proposition for any english speaker, native or otherwise), which would be the most "expected" use in the context of an everyday, average reader/player with no knowledge or understanding of the language?

answer in <200 words only plz

Ephemeral wrote:

out of "yu" vs "yi" (with the caveat expressed above that "yi" exists in pinyin already) vs "v" (with the caveat that using v as a vowel is a ludicrous proposition for any english speaker, native or otherwise), which would be the most "expected" use in the context of an everyday, average reader/player with no knowledge or understanding of the language?

answer in <200 words only plz

In my opinion, for average reader/player who knows nothing about the language, it would be "yi". "v" without any knowledge will be always pronounced as you see it, "yu" would be pronounced as "yoo", "yi" would be pronounced as "yi". The only thing missing here is the accent needed to pronounce it properly, which player with no knowledge will not use intuitively anyway.

Okay keep it short. I would support v since:
1. “v” is how Romanization of Mandarin input via keyboard, no matter what speaker;
2. both “yu” and "yi" are impractical since the pronunciation of it is not related to ü as well as y is a consonant, which is conflict with the idea of ü (vowel) too. (This is to clarify that they own no advantage over v according to pronunciation or vowel-consonant thingy);
3. Outside osu!, “v” is more commonly used than “yu” and "yi". Using "yu" or "yi" will be more confusing, from an everyday and average point of view, when they find "v" in other places.
4. Use of v for ü has a larger user database. But there are hardly people using yi or sth for ü since it has been used somewhere else in the Pin Yin system.

For the sake of people who don't know how to pronouce "ü" correctly,

open http://hanyu.baidu.com/s?wd=%E6%B7%A4, then click the blue voice logo of the site and hear it. http://hanyu.baidu.com/s?wd=%E9%A9%B4, click blue voice logo to hear the "ü" with a consonant and tone.

Also we focus on discussion wether it should be "v" or "yu", whoever is interested in why, contact me via PM and I will tell you.

I will make another summary merging "ü" to the main proposal of romanisation of Chinese when stuff gets discussed adequately.

I'd go with v.

Pronounciation in foreign languages isn't going to be mapped accurately anyway (ll in Spanish, å -> aa in Norwegian), so in my opinion it's better to make it "nonsense", making people who would like to pronounce it properly look it up, rather than pronouncing it wrongly (I wouldn't pronounce yu as ü, for instance), and it distinguishes between lü/lv and lu just fine.

Just as someone reading "llamo" would say "lamo" without prior Spanish knowledge, I think it's fine to expect some knowledge when someone want's to pronounce romanized chinese properly.

@Ephemeral

Not a mapper, but here's my take on it.

Yu and yi both already represent sounds in their own rights (鱼 and 一, for example), so there's space for confusion there. ü represents a different sound that I feel isn't properly conveyed through either yu or yi. The average player pronouncing lyu and lyi would say something like "lew" and "lee" respectively, when the actual sound is more like "lui".

So I think it's better for non-Chinese-literate players to realize that it has a completely different pronunciation by using v. They will eventually memorize the spelling, even if they don't know the word (but they will realize that it IS a different word, which might not be the case for yi or yu). Meanwhile, because v is used in place of ü when typing in pinyin, Chinese people will also have no trouble looking up maps.

Both have hefty pros and cons.

"v" is accurate representation of "ü" so for Chinese speakers/typers it is 100% ideal. However, it's ludicrous for anyone without prior knowledge of "v" usage, so many people, especially in the West, will be completely baffled.

"u," "yu," and "yi" are all equally inaccurate ("ü" happens to fall right between "yu" and "yi"), they are only approximations and thus not perfect. "Lu" will be "loo"; "lyu" will be "liu" or "lai yoo"; "lyi" will be god knows what. There's too much ambiguity. However, all of these are far closer to the truth than "v" for non-Chinese speakers.

None of these are ideal and make heavy compromises, so I think we should just keep the status quo "v" until we can find/implement a better solution, such as the one Kroytz suggested earlier: https://puu.sh/zRitU.png

However, out of the two, I personally prefer "u" or "yu," but I only chose "v" because tha thappens to be the status quo.

romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.

using "v" should not even be considered, so please do not even consider it. if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.

i believe "yu" is the only correct answer here.

Okay, time to make a summary again. Here is the modified draft of the proposal, it’s not final yet, feel free to suggest if I miss something.



Lüe and Nüe are substituted with Lue and Nue instead of Lyue and Nyue because of the following reasons:
1. Lue and Nue do not exist in the pinyin system. Substituting Lüe and Nüe with Lue and Nue respectively does not cause any ambiguity.
2. The model of substituting ü in this proposal is based on what is used in Chinese passports. Chinese passports change Lüe and Nüe to Lue and Nue as well. Lyu and Lue are in the GB/T. (only applied to People name)
3. Lue and Nue are more friendly to people that do not know how pinyin works and are easier to pronounce compared to Lyue and Nyue.
4. "üe" is technically same as "ue" in terms of pronunciation.

Anyone has concerns are free to contact me, I am willing to try my best to explain stuffs.

romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.

If that was the case, shouldn't titles that are fully in ascii still be romanized? I didn't have the faintest clue how to pronounce "Tijdmachine" until I heard the song. This is also heavily dependent on the readers' native language. To me, "Teidmaschien" would be a very accurate transliteration since I'll pronounce things german when in doubt, to an english speaker it'd (I'm assuming) be "Tidemachine".

The "v" vs "yu" thing is similar, if you want to give me an easy pronunciation guide, just "ue" will do as that's the german non-unicode alternative to "ü" (and the sound is very similar to how it is in chinese). Both "yu" and "v" will give me the wrong idea.

It's true that "v" as a vowel is unpronouncable to most westerners, but CXu has a good point about it being equal to "u" in original old latin script, and I'd say old latin stone engravings are perfectly readable.

im hearing stuff about allowing players who speak english to be able to pronounce titles that arent english? i speak both mandarin and english i think im allowed to have some kind of opinion

when people who primarily speak english see the word "sage" or "mote" they'll probably pronounce it as they think in english. couple it with a few japanese words romanized and it'll sound completely different, especially to osu!players. this is mainly due to how osu! is such a largely japanese influenced game. its sort of a cultural difference at this point. those outside of osu! might even butcher the pronounciation of the other romanized japanese words as well, to no real surprise.

i see no real reason for "v" to not be used because its already so established to chinese players. its how the unique sound is pronounced and theres no two ways about it. "-yu" simply looks too unnatural, and it sounds a whole lot more butchered than what its trying to emulate. i dont see why people cant pronounce "lve shi" and "lve yourself" differently. why cant "v" be simply an osu! culture as well?

because literally 0 western readers (who the romanization is aimed at) will read v as a vowel...................................................................................

Naotoshi wrote:

because literally 0 western readers (who the romanization is aimed at) will read v as a vowel...................................................................................

Didn't we have multiple chinese people in this thread saying that the romanization is important for chinese players as well?

Even then to me personally it makes no difference whether I can intuitively pronounce it or not, the important part is having something I can read and type so I can find the song again.

Naotoshi wrote:

because literally 0 western readers (who the romanization is aimed at) will read v as a vowel...................................................................................

I think it is still better than misleading players to pronunce wrong.

peppy wrote:

romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.

using "v" should not even be considered, so please do not even consider it. if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.

i believe "yu" is the only correct answer here.

https://soundcloud.com/gloriorbelli/in-paradisvm
Here is a song with title in Latin using v as vowel which is in accordance to Oxford way of typing Latin. IF some day someone maps this song, are you indicating that we shall change the name to In Paradisum instead? I don't think that makes sense, so why do you oppose "v" in the first place?

Emilia wrote:

i see no real reason for "v" to not be used because its already so established to chinese players.

peppy wrote:

romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.

using "v" should not even be considered, so please do not even consider it. if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.

Again, romanisation was never aimed at native speakers in the first place, so whether it is estabilished and comfortable to chinese players shouldn't really matter here.

peppy wrote:

romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.

using "v" should not even be considered, so please do not even consider it. if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.

i believe "yu" is the only correct answer here.

Eh, I think there's more than just pronounciation that's important here. There will be confusion if a non-native speaker tries to talk about a song with a native speaker, if the choice of romanization is different from what native speakers are used to. It's kind of like if we were to transliterate "llamo" to "yamo" for Spanish songs, to closer represent the actual sound.

We also already have cases where we're not as accurate as possible, such as the use of "x", or where "yi" really just sounds like i. Japanese romanization also differentiate between ei and ee, oo and ou, even though they sound the same.

In my opinion pronounciation should just be one priority off many when it comes to romanization, and other factors such as ambiguity should be taken into account, and if possible, should stay as close to the original language where possible.

As for using v specifically: letters in general tend to have different pronounciations in different languages already, so I feel like when someone sees the v and have trouble saying it, they'll realise it's probably pronounced differently.


@Rayne: Well, it doesn't need to, but wouldn't it be more convenient if native speakers and non-native speakers were on the same page when writing song titles to each other? In this case, yu isn't actually the right pronounciation anyway, so it doesn't really have any added benefit over v, other than teaching people how to pronounce it wrong. If you have to learn the pronounciation anyway, why not go with the one native speakers are using already, and that leads to less ambiguity? That's how I see it anyway.

Youmu Chan wrote:

peppy wrote:

romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.

using "v" should not even be considered, so please do not even consider it. if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.

i believe "yu" is the only correct answer here.

https://soundcloud.com/gloriorbelli/in-paradisvm
Here is a song with title in Latin using v as vowel which is in accordance to Oxford way of typing Latin. IF some day someone maps this song, are you indicating that we shall change the name to In Paradisum instead? I don't think that makes sense, so why do you oppose "v" in the first place?

No, because it's the way of writing Old/Classical/... Latin which doesn't need Romanisation. If we want to establish a rule about Romanisation, we simply find which Romanisation system is the best, keep the Latin script characters as is and figure out how to replace the special characters that we can't use. And it has to be based on something that objectively makes sense to a regular player who knows nothing about Romanisation or that language.

"v" in pinyin is has no basis other than what you press on the keyboard to write it, it could as well be "k" because you would technically be pressing "k" on Dvorak keyboard layout. Either one makes no sense, because regular user has no chance of knowing that in pinyin input method, this would actually produce ü.

We should differentiate Latin and Latin script without mixing it much. In any case, even if we considered that "v" was (u was added to Latin in 16th century) pronounced "u" in Latin language, ü still doesn't sound like either "v" or "u".

Wafu wrote:

No, because it's the way of writing Old/Classical/... Latin which doesn't need Romanisation. If we want to establish a rule about Romanisation, we simply find which Romanisation system is the best, keep the Latin script characters as is and figure out how to replace the special characters that we can't use. And it has to be based on something that objectively makes sense to a regular player who knows nothing about Romanisation or that language.

"v" in pinyin is has no basis other than what you press on the keyboard to write it, it could as well be "k" because you would technically be pressing "k" on Dvorak keyboard layout. Either one makes no sense, because regular user has no chance of knowing that in pinyin input method, this would actually produce ü.

We should differentiate Latin and Latin script without mixing it much. In any case, even if we considered that "v" was (u was added to Latin in 16th century) pronounced "u" in Latin language, ü still doesn't sound like either "v" or "u".

To me this is saying

Original language uses Latin script while it only makes sense to native speaker and makes totally no sense on pronunciation to non-native speaker (Polish, Latin for example): OK
Original language doesn't use Latin, so Romanize it into something that only makes sense to native speaker and makes little sense on pronunciation to non-native speaker (Using v in Chinese Romanization): NOT OK
Original language doesn't use Latin, so Romanize it into something that makes no sense to native speaker and makes some sense (but not accurate) on pronunciation to non-native speaker (Using yu in Chinese Romanization): OK

I am now completely confused by the intention and philosophy behind the metadata system

in my opinion, whatever thing chinese people use to input characters should be used, this way you avoid people having trouble figuring out how to romanize their own language (like when you change wo for o in japanese)

we should avoid middle grounds where neither native nor foreigners understand the romanization process fully

Do people realize that players will most likely mispronounce it anyways, even more if they dont have any previous knowledge of the language?

peppy wrote:

romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.

That's completely true, the problem is that romanization isnt accurate, mandarin has multiple tones and meanings for words that sound exactly the same to a non-native, romanization is just supposed to help you refer to something to other non-natives, the way you pronounce something doesnt really matter as long as the other person understands what youre trying to say

Honestly, if ü isnt sonorously close to either yu, yi, v or u, just use u instead since it would auto-correct if you were to search it on google or whatever and then do the tags thing that kroytz suggested for easier search in-game and on the website

Also, why dont we just add like a button to the website so we can see what the original, non-romanized title is?

Hi
I highly suggest everyone here read both of these https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6557643 https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6557415
I'll elaborate and add some points here.

Fycho wrote:

yu:
English speakers would read it "yoo", which has different tone from "ü" My description of the vowel ü is like this: firstly shape your mouth like you're going to pronounce the word "you," but instead of a vowel that sounds like oo (in moo) do a ee sound (like in bee or he) instead. Do not change your mouth's shape

asked around a bit and Nyu is pronounced like nee-yooh (like a very exaggerated new). The first portion gets the sound right and the second portion get the mouth shape right. Just sharing information lol this is no relation with stuff down there.

My opinion about this is that Romanised texts should be kind of familiar-ish to any english speaking person and give a rough hint of pronouncing the actual sound. However, the pronunciation needs not be perfectly accurate all the time and pronunciation does vary a little bit depending on the speaker's mothertongue. Here are some examples:


If you have zero knowledge about Chinese of course you're probably going to get a bunch of pronunciation messed up unfortunately(I did too lmfao ask fycho).
But that does not mean we should give people something they can't even pronounce. It's unsettling and will probably be really weird to many people, which should not be a feature of any Romanised text.

also this is mentioned in Fycho's post but it seems like it's skipped over by most.

Any questions can be directed at me or Fycho.

Linguists and native speakers don't be mad at me pls I know the pronunciation is not exact either and I suck at linguistic stuff sorry

Fycho wrote:

If saying "v" couldn't be readed by foreigners and makes misconception, then we probably need to rework the Japanese rule as ra / ri / ru / re / ro are actually pronounced as la / li / lu / le / lo in Japanese, which is kinda unfriendly towards those latin scripts users who don't know Japanese. English speakers will pronounce "ra" differently from how it's supposed to be pronounced in Japanese.

this is technically wrong, Japanese uses a pretty happy marriage of both "r" and l"" consonants, using the full mouth formation for "r", but also pressing the tongue very slightly on the roof of the mouth, making a soft 'l". since the full formation "r" is used, it more so correlates with English "r" than "l", and Japanese people (varying on dialect, of course) will recognize this, even through the imperfection of those specific characters by westerners.

regardless, that cannot be said about "v" in Chinese. i have almost no background in Chinese, but i can at least assure using a consonant sound that has nowhere near the same mouth formation/articulation of the sound it is actually trying to produce does not work well. there has to be an unfortunate compromise between perceived transliteration, and vocal articulation.

i don't know what the solution would be, as again, i don't have any Chinese background, but going with the options that are based on actual vowels would work better than "v" in general

Regraz wrote:

Naotoshi wrote:

because literally 0 western readers (who the romanization is aimed at) will read v as a vowel...................................................................................

I think it is still better than misleading players to pronunce wrong.

v also misleads players to pronounce the vowel wrong. Actually it misleads them a lot more than "yu" would for non-native speakers.

Lv = Lü for Chinese speakers

Lv = Uhlv for English speakers (think, Revolve) / or Luhvuh (think, Olive

I would use phonetic transcription but then only people who can read IPA can comment so I went with pronunciation and example instead.

How about using "yu" for the romanized song title but mandating to put the version with "v" in the tags? That way no one would struggle to search songs if they're searching with roman input (since both ways work), non-chinese speakers would have a pronouncable title, and reading it might look slightly weird to chinese speakers but still clear as to what is meant (from what I gathered from this thread, I don't speak a single word of chinese)?

LwL wrote:

How about using "yu" for the romanized song title but mandating to put the version with "v" in the tags? That way no one would struggle to search songs if they're searching with roman input (since both ways work), non-chinese speakers would have a pronouncable title, and reading it might look slightly weird to chinese speakers but still clear as to what is meant (from what I gathered from this thread, I don't speak a single word of chinese)?

even that's the case, the thing should be put on the actual title should still be the lv not lyu. face the problem, even after the romanization, without knowing the language, almost no English speaker can pronounce name from other languages. Romanization is not a way to help English speakers pronounce it but help them learn it. And why do you expect to make an osu standard (which no one will accept it outside of osu) to mislead Chinese learners to find the song?????
Lets say you find a ranked song title "nv ren (woman) hua (flower)", you will try to search on google "nv ren hua", ok you got the result. Then you wanna search for "nyu ren hua", nope, you will find nothing. In this sense, I will accept Nu and Lu for Nv and Lv, because you can still search for them and get the result, but definitely not Nyu lmao.
And the problem still exists, the Lu and Lv sounds totally different, if you wanna make the song title readable for and Chinese and Chinese learner, you have to go with Lv Nv, not Lu Nu, and because other than these two solutions, you can't even find the song, other options (like Nyu) should be automatically ignored.

Please, everyone in this thread think about the consequence of your proposal, most of them it not even viable just because they will fuck everyone up and no one will be able to tell which song is it. If after the meta rule change, no one can use osu meta to find songs, then why do we want that change????

From a person who mainly uses English even though I have the minimum knowledge to correctly pronounce pinyin including "ü", using "v" to represent "ü" is disastrous and shall be avoid. Here is why:

1. Any persons who do not know Chinese will eventually mispronounce this "COMPLETELY".
2. Even though "yu" does also lead into mispronunciation, HOWEVER, it still at least makes, even if slightly, more sense for most non-Chinese speakers.

Also, just as Peppy has already said,

peppy wrote:

romanisation isn't for the people that speak the language. it is for people that can't who wish to (as accurately as possible) pronounce and process what they are reading.

...if native people are offended, they can turn off roman display.

I will not bring the fact that he clearly supports the "yu"'s side, but only what I want to point out here.

ROMANIZATION is NOT for native speakers. As a Thai, if for any reasons I'm trying to search for a Thai song, I wouldn't bother using a single Latin characters. Instead, I would rather use Thai characters. I believe that Using characters in the desired language is certainly easier than trying to use Latin characters. Henceforth, this should also apply to native speakers(in this case are Chineses) when trying to search for something WHICH IS AVAILABLE IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES (again, Chinese for this debate).

If you were to ask me if I'm offended when a Thai song is misinterpreted due to romanization, I would answer "no" without hesitation, and I strongly hope ALL NATIVE SPEAKERS feel the same when they see their own languages being misinterpreted.

Still, if native speakers are feeling offended due to their language being mispronounced or whatsoever, they have the option to turn off romanization which has also already been mentioned by Peppy.

PS. The fact that I keep mentioning Chinese isn't because I hold my grudge against them, but due to Chinese being the main discussed topic here. Being honest, I feel like all native speakers should feel the same toward "romanization".

SupaJuke wrote:

ROMANIZATION is NOT for native speakers.

essentially this

ROMANIZATION is NOT for English speakers to pronounce.

^^^^essentially this

you guys are saying to teach osu player wrong things about Chinese and will make no way for them to find the song by title. Realize it.

Romanization (also spelled romanisation: see spelling differences), in linguistics, is the conversion of writing from a different writing system to the Roman (Latin) script, or a system for doing so. Methods of romanization include transliteration, for representing written text, and transcription, for representing the spoken word, and combinations of both. Transcription methods can be subdivided into phonemic transcription, which records the phonemes or units of semantic meaning in speech, and more strict phonetic transcription, which records speech sounds with precision.

it actually is for Latin alphabet speaker's to pronounce, not Chinese, unfortunately;

Mentai wrote:

Romanization (also spelled romanisation: see spelling differences), in linguistics, is the conversion of writing from a different writing system to the Roman (Latin) script, or a system for doing so. Methods of romanization include transliteration, for representing written text, and transcription, for representing the spoken word, and combinations of both. Transcription methods can be subdivided into phonemic transcription, which records the phonemes or units of semantic meaning in speech, and more strict phonetic transcription, which records speech sounds with precision.

it actually is for Latin alphabet speaker's to pronounce, not Chinese, unfortunately;

and if a player want to find the song by romanized title, ask google do they accept this proposal

Shad0w1and wrote:

ROMANIZATION is NOT for English speakers to pronounce.

^^^^essentially this

you guys are saying to teach osu player wrong things about Chinese and will make them find no way to find the song. Realize it.

For this to eventually be solved, we have to discuss whether we want to write the metadata according to how it is "pronounced", or "used".

If you want it to be written according to how it is actually used by natives (Chinese), then I wouldn't argue that certainly "v" is better.

However, from my point of view, a non-native speaker, I prefer the metadata to be something readable for me. Even if it would be different from how native speakers actually use when typing/writing in roman.

Shad0w1and wrote:

Mentai wrote:

Romanization (also spelled romanisation: see spelling differences), in linguistics, is the conversion of writing from a different writing system to the Roman (Latin) script, or a system for doing so. Methods of romanization include transliteration, for representing written text, and transcription, for representing the spoken word, and combinations of both. Transcription methods can be subdivided into phonemic transcription, which records the phonemes or units of semantic meaning in speech, and more strict phonetic transcription, which records speech sounds with precision.

it actually is for Latin alphabet speaker's to pronounce, not Chinese, unfortunately;

and if a player want to find the song by romanized title, ask google do they accept this proposal

this is literally the issue at hand. the point is that we are valuing actual articulation higher than transliteration. there is a solution for both. having the metadata be the phonetic articulation for Latin alphabet speakers, but also requiring to have the exact Chinese transliteration in the tags. and this would work, but we don't know what to use other than "v." if we could find a happy middle ground for pronunciation between us (that being, non-native Chinese speakers and native Chinese speakers), then the problem would be resolved both ways

please be a bit open minded in respect to how vowels are treated in Latin-based languages

SupaJuke wrote:

Shad0w1and wrote:

ROMANIZATION is NOT for English speakers to pronounce.

^^^^essentially this

you guys are saying to teach osu player wrong things about Chinese and will make them find no way to find the song. Realize it.

For this to eventually be solved, we have to discuss whether we want to write the metadata according to how it is "pronounced", or "used".

If you want it to be written according to how it is actually used by natives (Chinese), then I wouldn't argue that certainly "v" is better.

However, from my point of view, a non-native speaker, I prefer the metadata to be something readable for me. Even if it would be different from how native speakers actually use when typing/writing in roman.

idc about native language or not, I am saying you cannot just make a standard which no one outside of osu will accept. that will just fuck up everyone who wants to know about the song on google. I personally is fine with Lv write as Lu because it is searchable. but Lyu is like a joke. no one will now know which song is it.

at the end, I can't see other options than these two:
Title: Nv Ren Hua, Tags: Nu
Title: Nu Ren Hua, Tags: Nv
Other options are not viable, just because it won't help to identify the song in any database or search engine.

Shad0w1and wrote:

at the end, I can't see other options than these two:
Title: Nv Ren Hua, Tags: Nu
Title: Nu Ren Hua, Tags: Nv
Other options are not viable, just because it won't help to identify the song in any database or search engine.

if this is actually viable, i think the second option would be a perfect compromise between articulation, and allowing for the full transliterated string to be found

Shad0w1and wrote:

idc about native language or not, I am saying you cannot just make a standard which no one outside of osu will accept. that will just fuck up everyone who wants to know about the song on google. I personally is fine with Lv write as Lu because it is searchable. but Lyu is like a joke. no one will now know which song is it.

at the end, I can't see other options than these two:
Title: Nv Ren Hua, Tags: Nu
Title: Nu Ren Hua, Tags: Nv
Other options are not viable, just because it won't help to identify the song in any database or search engine.

Actually, some songs that are not really famous, that had to be Romanised by osu! community alone, can't be found by using the Romanised name. Why don't you just copy the original title and search for that? It would actually be best if the original title was available on the website, but you can still find any song as the original title must be here.

And I'm not sure what is wrong with your Google results, because it seems to have found the songs properly using the "yu" version, at least on my end. But even then, don't forget that you still can add artist to the search. The probability that "yu" will be in all of the characters (of both artist and title) is very improbable and copying both artist and the title should find the song even if one character is missing. For example this map can be found by just typing "stefanie guang", not even her full name is required. I think you're making it look more problematic than it is.

du ju rilli vant piipell tu vrait hauv dei pronauns vørds in inglisj in anådder længguej?

I mean, probably not. We don't transcribe how we pronounce things from one Latin-Alphabet using language to English, and I'm sure people of native English would have a headache reading my "norwegianization" of an Englsh sentence. It's probably a similar feeling many Chinese people are having about this change when they already have a system they use that uses Latin characters (thus making people able to write and communicate which song they mean) properly that works fine except for the one pronounciation of v, which is already a common problem of any other language than English using the Latin Alphabet.