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Mappers' Guild Information & Applications

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Kroytz

handsome wrote:

Kroytz wrote:

Tell that to Joe Castle or anyone who strictly makes E/N sets because they genuinely enjoy it xd
even ignoring the possible 'abuse', E/N sets don't appeal to a wide playerbase which is the goal in mind here when trying to promote FA
Despite it appealing to lesser players, it’s moreso the fact that some mappers who have a genuine liking towards making lower diff sets will have a clear advantage in points over those who make full spreads or any spread involving Extras (which as we all know take a longer time and marginally more effort) e.e
Noffy
ಠ_ಠ yeah, still don't get it. why does mapper's guild get to be special above anyone else that would choose to map FA out of the goodness of their hearts? The point system sounds like such a good incentive to get the general public to map FA songs, but it's being restricted to a really small selective group of people?
And out of this selective group of people, you don't even have permission to map your own set for it unless you're really active in the group?
what?
I'd understand part/full time meaning a difference in rewards, but basically recruiting people for more gds/mods and not letting them do their own thing sounds shady to me. Like, I could imagine it being used to prevent people from joining just to piggyback on other's help without that, but with such a tall wall for entry that sounds significantly less likely...
Shiirn
this is a horrible idea that heavily encourages sucking eachother's [censored]s rather than making good or interesting maps, and the way you have points set up even further hammers in the fact that nobody gives a [censored] about lower difficulties and apparently neither should any "respectable mappers" - why even bother pretending at this point?

i'd write some more but that'd involve putting more thought into this post than went into the original guild idea and i don't like spending more time thinking than the thing i'm trying to discredit. tho this does seem like a bunch of self-congratulatory bull[censored].


EDIT: SEEING THAT HANDSOME'S SHA IS PART OF THAT PACK REALLY MAKES SENSE NOW, NO WAY WOULD THAT BE RANKED NORMALLY LOL
Logic Agent
yeah the bar is way too high. i don't think it takes 10 ranked sets to understand how the ranking criteria works. it's not rocket science, and after a few sets and a few gds, most people will understand how it works.
Izzywing
agree with Monster ata that e/n seems overweighted considering the effort needed to make them vs. higher diffs.

The concept is cool in theory but it's lame that there is literally no incentive for non guild mappers to map FA songs. But then again not a lot do anyway, which is the point of the guild anyway lol

Btw why is the requirement 10? I know more than enough competent mappers with 3 or so ranked sets. How hard is it to figure out the ranking process that it takes 10 sets to fully grasp? That's ridiculous, it's not rocket science.
tatatat
who cares. it seems like all current maps are only for osu!std, and from the criteria and the post this just seems like the most elite way to circlejerk your maps.
Mun
I don't care about a high bar, and I'd look self-interested if that was my complaint. This is just a ridiculous idea. Usually, I dismiss complaints of circlejerk and defend people paying more attention to certain people's maps, but this makes that really hard to do. Basically, you're guaranteeing that any member of the guild that can make even mediocre, borderline rankable maps can get any mapset ranked as long as they are mapping specific songs. I only expect rushed maps coming out of this.

At the very least, I can see this leading to is more justified claims of circlejerk, especially considering the private functioning of the group. It's like taking a group of friends to map and circlejerk specific songs into ranked, then treating this group as if it is an elite squadron of only the best mappers. As far as I can see, this group has no positive impact on the community or the game, and the disproportionate amount of effort put into such a poorly thought out idea is concerning.
Nyquill

pishifat wrote:

For the most part, it will continue to function privately until plans are further fleshed out...


Can I press the importance that we are literally just out the gates with this project and the biggest reason we can't support an extended community at the moment is the lack of systems in place to manage it. As of now, pishifat is responsible for the management of around 9 (soon to be nearly double that amount) or so mappers and making sure they're on track.

More interest in featured artists is the goal, and there's no way that having more people on board isn't good for the ecosystem.
ErunamoJAZZ
Well... it is not about be agree or not on how high parameter have this group to someone join in, there are not a lot of active people with more of 10 ranked maps, but it is fine to be an elitist group, you know. I think it is fine.

Some people will be interested in map some FA, but to me, there are some reasons why FA are not popular into mapping community right now:
1) Songs are not suitable to be pp maps: most of songs are just not fast enough (lol, I know it is a bit stupid reason, but some mappers just do not map slow songs).
2) Songs are difficult to map: Not only because bpm, but with repetitive or not dynamic melody or so... anime songs are just to generic and many mappers only know how to map in the meta way.
3) It is different when you as mapper do something that you like too much, that when you do something just to do.

Anyway, this announce will increase the amount of FA maps, thing that I glad :D

Edit: just to point, that last songs in FA sections are not very slow now, so yeah xD
-----

I am not worry of points in low difficulties, monstrata argument is that you can do low diffs fast, but for the actual people in the guild, at least half of they do very interesting low diffs, not only "Ididagenericdiffjusttogetmyextraranked".
I am one that love to do Normal and Easy diffs, so I sincerely want that people in this group to put enough effort in low diffs in order to do a great work, in the same amount of elitism that this group have, not only to fatten the ranking section with FA maps.


o/
anna apple
Hey I'm looking forward to the results of this! Good luck to all the applicants!
Topic Starter
pishifat
hi good morning

Weber wrote:

Edit: Doesn't this seem a little too restrictive for the end goal you want though? Wouldn't this points/reward system be better implemented as a community-wide thing, giving mappers of any skill level a goal to strive for, with a proper incentive that would probably give life to tons of featured artist sets? Why keep it as an invite-only thing for only the best of the best?

Noffy wrote:

The point system sounds like such a good incentive to get the general public to map FA songs, but it's being restricted to a really small selective group of people?

it's headed in the direction weber described. if we wanted it to be fully locked off forever, we wouldn't be doing applications for the upcoming round. it's currently limited because of what nyquill described above -- most management is done manually. the criteria will be less restrictive going forward as limitations are taken care of

Weber wrote:

It honestly feels like a wasted opportunity as there is still NO incentive for anyone outside the guild to be involved with featured artists in any way whatsoever.

Monstrata wrote:

I agree with Sieg too. There are quite a few mappers who have made Featured Artist maps of their own volition even before the start of Mappers' Guild. They didn't do it for rewards of course, but now it seems like they've been excluded from this inner circle.

quoted from the application criteria in the op: "You've shown an interest in mapping featured artist songs. This point is especially worth considering if you want to apply next round!"
as it moves towards more public accessibility, showing interest by mapping featured artist songs will increase likelihood of joining the guild (especially for the following rounds (hint: it'll be a baseline requirement))
when it's publicly accessible eventually, incentives won't be a concern

Weber wrote:

Also, what incentive is there to get people from other game-modes involved if there's no guarantee they'll ever be rewarded in a similar way by staff, especially since getting those started on their own would be way more difficult due to the lack of numbers overall compared to standard?

there was no guarantee we'd be getting rewarded either. the current guild started around august of last year and received rewards 2 days ago. producing something for your game-mode would be more productive than giving up immediately

Monstrata wrote:

This is just speaking from experience with mapping commissions, but the point value for lower difficulties is far too high in comparison to higher diffs for the amount of effort needed.

Kroytz/Hobbes2 wrote:

same

may be worth changing scaling diff values. gonna gather opinions

Monstrata wrote:

I realize that one of the original objectives was to have people be able to "claim" or "bid" on certain songs and have exclusive access to mapping that particular song (with no one else in the guild being able to make another set for it). I don't know if that's still on the table though.

as you probably know, that's more on nyquill's end with the bot stuff. it's not happening right now but it may some time down the line

Logic Agent wrote:

yeah the bar is way too high. i don't think it takes 10 ranked sets to understand how the ranking criteria works.

Hobbes2 wrote:

Btw why is the requirement 10?

minimum criteria will loosen as we accept more users. we're taking people with a relatively high amount of experience with ranking their maps before expanding for reasons explained earlier

My Angel Digi wrote:

So you're looking for extremely elite mappers, but these elite mappers are still only part-time?

Noffy wrote:

And out of this selective group of people, you don't even have permission to map your own set for it unless you're really active in the group?

to use some examples (no offense to them), one mapper last round hadn't finished a guest difficulty he signed up for by the deadline. after a week or so he hadn't made progress, so the difficulty was turned into a collab. if a new member signs up and can't uphold their guest difficulty responsibilities, it's not a huge problem because they can be easily finished by other means.

the same isn't true about hosting a mapset though. one new member last round was assigned a mapset and by the deadline for mapset completion, he hadn't completed any difficulties on his set. 2 weeks after the deadline when maps were being prepared for rank, he still wasn't done, and filling the set with guest difficulties could only go so far.

so basically if someone can show commitment to their tasks in their entry round, they'll move up to full-time. if they can't, they'll stay at part-time where not following through with responsibilities doesn't have the same impact

------

for those interested in numbers, there's been 30 applicants so far!!
tatatat
I still think this is very dumb, and featured maps shouldn't be given any special privileges in the ranking process. All maps should be treated fairly and on equal grounds.
Nakano Itsuki
I am here to complain about the lack of Minecraft Let's Plays

Honestly I feels like this is a really good incentive, though I don't really understand the KD requirement :thinking:

I mean, isn't mapping well being enough of a requirement anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Other than that really looking forward to more FA songs being mapped
Ephemeral
Please don't lambaste this project before it even gets off the ground, as has already been said by a few people in the thread so far.

You're welcome to suggest improvements or raise concerns with solutions as you see them, but please aim to remain productive and understand that efforts like the Guild are born out of a desire to improve osu!, not make it worse.

I'm optimistic for the future of this project and was quite happy with the Motoloid release in its entirety. I'd encourage people on the fence to give it a chance to mature before passing more lasting judgment.
Topic Starter
pishifat

StarrStyx wrote:

I don't really understand the KD requirement :thinking:

a couple weeks of each cycle are dedicated to modding. with how moddingv2 works, anyone active in the last few months should meet the requirement pretty easily
Pachiru
I have a question regarding this project.

Let's consider that I'm making a set on a FA song, and I wanna push this forward to rank it. If I'm not from the mapper's guild, will I still be able to have help to push this or not?

If the question wasn't clear enough, do people from the mapper's guild will be encouraged to help mappers that don't belong to this guild, or the mapper's guild members will only help each other inside the guild?

This subject is quite blurry to me, so that's why I'm asking.
Nyquill

Pachiru wrote:

I have a question regarding this project.

Let's consider that I'm making a set on a FA song, and I wanna push this forward to rank it. If I'm not from the mapper's guild, will I still be able to have help to push this or not?

If the question wasn't clear enough, do people from the mapper's guild will be encouraged to help mappers that don't belong to this guild, or the mapper's guild members will only help each other inside the guild?

This subject is quite blurry to me, so that's why I'm asking.


We have plans for rewarding people for mapping featured artist material who do not currently hold membership status when we go public on a wider scale. More on that at a later date.
Kibbleru
I honestly think the 10 ranked map requirement is just to prove that you can produce ranked maps consistently. a major part of the entire idea is to actually rank the FA maps, not just mapping them itself.

but then again, as somebody who has no problem with this requirement, i might be a little biased here.
Izzywing
I guess that part makes sense. It's easier to assume you've hit a quality threshold that means even maps you've 'shitmapped' as far as relative to your own standards are still rankable if you have a big number of ranked maps lol. And i don't mean that sarcastically.
Wriothesley

handsome wrote:

Kroytz wrote:

Tell that to Joe Castle or anyone who strictly makes E/N sets because they genuinely enjoy it xd


even ignoring the possible 'abuse', E/N sets don't appeal to a wide playerbase which is the goal in mind here when trying to promote FA.

My Angel Digi wrote:

Hang on, let me get this straight.

Pishifat wrote:

Part-time members will be unable to host mapsets, however they can mod and provide guest difficulties.

yet to become a part-time member

Pishifat wrote:

You've ranked at least 10 mapsets


So you're looking for extremely elite mappers (sidebar: I know plenty of good mappers with less than 10 ranked sets. If you're telling me somehow lit120 as a mapper with 13 ranked sets compares to someone who ranks massively higher quality sets like Kaifin who only has 3 I don't know what to tell you) because it is not easy to rank 10 sets, but these elite mappers are still not really allowed to do anything?

I'd love to join and mod (because I'm a shit mapper) and as I progress as a mapper create GDs and eventually sets. I think this has a lot of potential but would be much better if you could earn points without being an elite mapper if you decided to spend time trying to help out as best you can. Weber is totally right. Just my two cents


not everything is black and white, nowhere does it state that having more ranked maps would mean one is more capable of producing higher quality sets. the amount of ranked sets is an indicator of how much one has contributed to the ranked section and how familiar they are with the ranking maps in itself, not one's capability as a mapper. as skillful as someone might be, a lack of ranked maps would mean a lack of familiarity with the ranking and modding process, which is a pretty significant part of the guild's responsibilities.


What if I'm here as modslave and to learn about mapping? I clearly couldn't rank a map, but I still feel like I could contribute.
coco

My Angel Digi wrote:

What if I'm here as modslave and to learn about mapping? I clearly couldn't rank a map, but I still feel like I could contribute.
lol this isn't the place for learning to map, as CLEARLY indicated with the 10 rank 200 kds requirement
_handholding
Can ppl with 25+ ranked GDs overwrite the 10 sets? Basically have no. of ranked GDs be an equivalent substitute to the no. of ranked sets.

I don't really have difficulty ranking sets (especially now that I'm a BN) but I'm a mapper that only pushes sets for ranked if I felt really motivated towards the song itself, hence why I mostly map GDs (which every BN loves!!).

I think the fact that my last 3 ranked sets were ranked within a month sort of backs up what I'm saying. Though applying this would be case by case which ofc has it's downsides in itself
Topic Starter
pishifat

Kisses wrote:

Can ppl with 25+ ranked GDs overwrite the 10 sets? Basically have no. of ranked GDs be an equivalent substitute to the no. of ranked sets.

will keep that in mind for people more involved in making gds. having the ability to rank your own sets is pretty important for the role here, so having a decent amount of experience in that is more favorable though
Topic Starter
pishifat
a couple people have asked about this privately, so gonna clarify:

you can still apply if you don't meet every point of the application criteria. you have significantly better chances of joining if you do meet the criteria, but you won't be instantly disqualified because you haven't mapped a featured artist song or you have 7 ranked maps instead of 10 (or anything else along those lines).

a lot of applicants so far seem to be aware of this, but i imagine some people might have avoided applying because they thought otherwise. if you're one of those people, you've still got 5 days to apply!

edited the op to explicitly mention this too
Lumenite-
general concept is interesting, but giving FAs special privilege in the ranking process over other stuff is just kinda stupid... whether or not an FA is even interesting is completely subjective as well, so imo holding any FA on a pedestal is just kind of counter intuitive and unfair to other maps/mappers
if i missed a counter argument to this claim, apologies in advance
Izzywing
well FA songs deserve to be put on a pedestal because osu payed for them. they're featured songs. most other rhythm games literally only have featured songs, so I think they are important.

Especially because there's no legal spaghetti when it comes to FA songs.

edit - took out the speculation part
Topic Starter
pishifat
where did the reply from kisses go

i dont know about the second part of hobbes's explanation, but the first part is why featured artist songs are being prioritized here
Topic Starter
pishifat
it's been a week so the application form is closed. i'll be posting information on who's joining in a couple days!
Topic Starter
pishifat
out of 54 applicants, 11 will be joining this round! (double our current member count):

  1. Sonnyc
  2. toybot
  3. Karen
  4. Nathan
  5. Chaoslitz
  6. Pho
  7. Gero
  8. Kibbleru
  9. Satellite
  10. Mao
  11. Natsu
additionally, we'll be letting some new members host sets this round contrary to what's written in the first post


how new members were selected:

each applicant has a row in a spreadsheet similar to this


the green cells show that the applicant met some of the criteria listed on the first post of this thread:
  1. he has at least 10 ranked maps
  2. he ranked a map in 2017/2018
  3. he surpassed minimum modding activity (more than 3 mods in 3 months, "1"=true "0"=false)
each of these green cells added 1 to the "total" value on the right

the red cells show that the applicant didn't meet some of the criteria:
  1. he didn't have at least 200 kudosu
  2. he hasn't ranked any mapsets of licensed featured artist songs (each set would add 1 to the total)
through this, priority was given to those who met more of the criteria -- especially those who ranked more featured artist maps in the past. mappers who didn't meet all the criteria were still given the opportunity to join though.

because a lot of applicants were equally matched based solely on the criteria, a blind vote was held. each current guild member subjectively chose 5-10 users who they believed made high quality maps and could work well together. the votes column shows how many current guild members supported the applicant. those votes were added to the total value.

all applicants were then sorted by their totals and the ones passing a threshold (8 in this case) were selected to join. if you want to see the totals of all applicants, see the full spreadsheet here!

next round will likely have more opportunity for joining, so don't feel down if you didn't make it this time!
Natteke desu
omg what a circlejerk reported
Pachiru
^^ gg all
Topic Starter
pishifat
applications for new members were re-opened (about a week ago). see details and apply here: https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/731365
iloveyou4ever
damn I fulfilled all the requirements but I am a taiko mapper kms
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