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posted
Weber makes some really good points. Mapping with rewards is completely different from the goal that Mappers' Guild is trying to achieve. Mapping with Rewards was ultimately a contest where only one person got a prize. On the other hand, with Mappers' Guild, everyone wins because the goal is to meet a quota of points, rather than impress three random judges.

I agree with Sieg too. There are quite a few mappers who have made Featured Artist maps of their own volition even before the start of Mappers' Guild. They didn't do it for rewards of course, but now it seems like they've been excluded from this inner circle.


Really, the benefits of Mappers' Guild is a way to fasttrack the ranking process when you complete a featured artist mapset. Rewards don't have to be exclusive of people within the group no?

I realize that one of the original objectives was to have people be able to "claim" or "bid" on certain songs and have exclusive access to mapping that particular song (with no one else in the guild being able to make another set for it). I don't know if that's still on the table though.
posted
Also, a criticism about the points system. This is just speaking from experience with mapping commissions, but the point value for lower difficulties is far too high in comparison to higher diffs for the amount of effort needed. Most mappers should be able to make a tv-size Easy difficulty in like what, 15 minutes? But it takes considerably longer to create a tv-size difficulty that's Extra or Insane. Mappers who are mapping Featured-Artist mapsets with the objective of getting badges will find that it would be in their best interest to only map E/N spreads.
posted
do we get bonus good boy points for nominating maps on top of modding xD
posted

Monstrata wrote:

Also, a criticism about the points system. This is just speaking from experience with mapping commissions, but the point value for lower difficulties is far too high in comparison to higher diffs for the amount of effort needed. Most mappers should be able to make a tv-size Easy difficulty in like what, 15 minutes? But it takes considerably longer to create a tv-size difficulty that's Extra or Insane. Mappers who are mapping Featured-Artist mapsets with the objective of getting badges will find that it would be in their best interest to only map E/N spreads.
on paper it sounds easy, but total mapsets are pretty much restricted to one per person so you can’t spam sets. and realistically speaking, E/N sets are also a pretty clear abuse of the system and with the guild being a closed system such behaviour can be moderated pretty easily.
posted

handsome wrote:

Monstrata wrote:

Also, a criticism about the points system. This is just speaking from experience with mapping commissions, but the point value for lower difficulties is far too high in comparison to higher diffs for the amount of effort needed. Most mappers should be able to make a tv-size Easy difficulty in like what, 15 minutes? But it takes considerably longer to create a tv-size difficulty that's Extra or Insane. Mappers who are mapping Featured-Artist mapsets with the objective of getting badges will find that it would be in their best interest to only map E/N spreads.
on paper it sounds easy, but total mapsets are pretty much restricted to one per person so you can’t spam sets. and realistically speaking, E/N sets are also a pretty clear abuse of the system and with the guild being a closed system such behaviour can be moderated pretty easily.
Tell that to Joe Castle or anyone who strictly makes E/N sets because they genuinely enjoy it xd
posted
Hang on, let me get this straight.

Pishifat wrote:

Part-time members will be unable to host mapsets, however they can mod and provide guest difficulties.
yet to become a part-time member

Pishifat wrote:

You've ranked at least 10 mapsets
So you're looking for extremely elite mappers (sidebar: I know plenty of good mappers with less than 10 ranked sets. If you're telling me somehow lit120 as a mapper with 13 ranked sets compares to someone who ranks massively higher quality sets like Kaifin who only has 3 I don't know what to tell you) because it is not easy to rank 10 sets, but these elite mappers are still not really allowed to do anything?

I'd love to join and mod (because I'm a shit mapper) and as I progress as a mapper create GDs and eventually sets. I think this has a lot of potential but would be much better if you could earn points without being an elite mapper if you decided to spend time trying to help out as best you can. Weber is totally right. Just my two cents
posted

Kroytz wrote:

Tell that to Joe Castle or anyone who strictly makes E/N sets because they genuinely enjoy it xd
even ignoring the possible 'abuse', E/N sets don't appeal to a wide playerbase which is the goal in mind here when trying to promote FA.

My Angel Digi wrote:

Hang on, let me get this straight.

Pishifat wrote:

Part-time members will be unable to host mapsets, however they can mod and provide guest difficulties.
yet to become a part-time member

Pishifat wrote:

You've ranked at least 10 mapsets
So you're looking for extremely elite mappers (sidebar: I know plenty of good mappers with less than 10 ranked sets. If you're telling me somehow lit120 as a mapper with 13 ranked sets compares to someone who ranks massively higher quality sets like Kaifin who only has 3 I don't know what to tell you) because it is not easy to rank 10 sets, but these elite mappers are still not really allowed to do anything?

I'd love to join and mod (because I'm a shit mapper) and as I progress as a mapper create GDs and eventually sets. I think this has a lot of potential but would be much better if you could earn points without being an elite mapper if you decided to spend time trying to help out as best you can. Weber is totally right. Just my two cents
not everything is black and white, nowhere does it state that having more ranked maps would mean one is more capable of producing higher quality sets. the amount of ranked sets is an indicator of how much one has contributed to the ranked section and how familiar they are with the ranking maps in itself, not one's capability as a mapper. as skillful as someone might be, a lack of ranked maps would mean a lack of familiarity with the ranking and modding process, which is a pretty significant part of the guild's responsibilities.
posted
the other badges were cooler imo, it gave a more clear sense of progression and felt more colorful!
posted

handsome wrote:

Kroytz wrote:

Tell that to Joe Castle or anyone who strictly makes E/N sets because they genuinely enjoy it xd
even ignoring the possible 'abuse', E/N sets don't appeal to a wide playerbase which is the goal in mind here when trying to promote FA
Despite it appealing to lesser players, it’s moreso the fact that some mappers who have a genuine liking towards making lower diff sets will have a clear advantage in points over those who make full spreads or any spread involving Extras (which as we all know take a longer time and marginally more effort) e.e
posted
ಠ_ಠ yeah, still don't get it. why does mapper's guild get to be special above anyone else that would choose to map FA out of the goodness of their hearts? The point system sounds like such a good incentive to get the general public to map FA songs, but it's being restricted to a really small selective group of people?
And out of this selective group of people, you don't even have permission to map your own set for it unless you're really active in the group?
what?
I'd understand part/full time meaning a difference in rewards, but basically recruiting people for more gds/mods and not letting them do their own thing sounds shady to me. Like, I could imagine it being used to prevent people from joining just to piggyback on other's help without that, but with such a tall wall for entry that sounds significantly less likely...
posted
this is a horrible idea that heavily encourages sucking eachother's [censored]s rather than making good or interesting maps, and the way you have points set up even further hammers in the fact that nobody gives a [censored] about lower difficulties and apparently neither should any "respectable mappers" - why even bother pretending at this point?

i'd write some more but that'd involve putting more thought into this post than went into the original guild idea and i don't like spending more time thinking than the thing i'm trying to discredit. tho this does seem like a bunch of self-congratulatory bull[censored].


EDIT: SEEING THAT HANDSOME'S SHA IS PART OF THAT PACK REALLY MAKES SENSE NOW, NO WAY WOULD THAT BE RANKED NORMALLY LOL
posted
yeah the bar is way too high. i don't think it takes 10 ranked sets to understand how the ranking criteria works. it's not rocket science, and after a few sets and a few gds, most people will understand how it works.
posted
agree with Monster ata that e/n seems overweighted considering the effort needed to make them vs. higher diffs.

The concept is cool in theory but it's lame that there is literally no incentive for non guild mappers to map FA songs. But then again not a lot do anyway, which is the point of the guild anyway lol

Btw why is the requirement 10? I know more than enough competent mappers with 3 or so ranked sets. How hard is it to figure out the ranking process that it takes 10 sets to fully grasp? That's ridiculous, it's not rocket science.
posted
who cares. it seems like all current maps are only for osu!std, and from the criteria and the post this just seems like the most elite way to circlejerk your maps.
posted
I don't care about a high bar, and I'd look self-interested if that was my complaint. This is just a ridiculous idea. Usually, I dismiss complaints of circlejerk and defend people paying more attention to certain people's maps, but this makes that really hard to do. Basically, you're guaranteeing that any member of the guild that can make even mediocre, borderline rankable maps can get any mapset ranked as long as they are mapping specific songs. I only expect rushed maps coming out of this.

At the very least, I can see this leading to is more justified claims of circlejerk, especially considering the private functioning of the group. It's like taking a group of friends to map and circlejerk specific songs into ranked, then treating this group as if it is an elite squadron of only the best mappers. As far as I can see, this group has no positive impact on the community or the game, and the disproportionate amount of effort put into such a poorly thought out idea is concerning.
posted

pishifat wrote:

For the most part, it will continue to function privately until plans are further fleshed out...
Can I press the importance that we are literally just out the gates with this project and the biggest reason we can't support an extended community at the moment is the lack of systems in place to manage it. As of now, pishifat is responsible for the management of around 9 (soon to be nearly double that amount) or so mappers and making sure they're on track.

More interest in featured artists is the goal, and there's no way that having more people on board isn't good for the ecosystem.
posted
Well... it is not about be agree or not on how high parameter have this group to someone join in, there are not a lot of active people with more of 10 ranked maps, but it is fine to be an elitist group, you know. I think it is fine.

Some people will be interested in map some FA, but to me, there are some reasons why FA are not popular into mapping community right now:
1) Songs are not suitable to be pp maps: most of songs are just not fast enough (lol, I know it is a bit stupid reason, but some mappers just do not map slow songs).
2) Songs are difficult to map: Not only because bpm, but with repetitive or not dynamic melody or so... anime songs are just to generic and many mappers only know how to map in the meta way.
3) It is different when you as mapper do something that you like too much, that when you do something just to do.

Anyway, this announce will increase the amount of FA maps, thing that I glad :D

Edit: just to point, that last songs in FA sections are not very slow now, so yeah xD
-----

I am not worry of points in low difficulties, monstrata argument is that you can do low diffs fast, but for the actual people in the guild, at least half of they do very interesting low diffs, not only "Ididagenericdiffjusttogetmyextraranked".
I am one that love to do Normal and Easy diffs, so I sincerely want that people in this group to put enough effort in low diffs in order to do a great work, in the same amount of elitism that this group have, not only to fatten the ranking section with FA maps.


o/
posted
Hey I'm looking forward to the results of this! Good luck to all the applicants!
posted
hi good morning

Weber wrote:

Edit: Doesn't this seem a little too restrictive for the end goal you want though? Wouldn't this points/reward system be better implemented as a community-wide thing, giving mappers of any skill level a goal to strive for, with a proper incentive that would probably give life to tons of featured artist sets? Why keep it as an invite-only thing for only the best of the best?

Noffy wrote:

The point system sounds like such a good incentive to get the general public to map FA songs, but it's being restricted to a really small selective group of people?
it's headed in the direction weber described. if we wanted it to be fully locked off forever, we wouldn't be doing applications for the upcoming round. it's currently limited because of what nyquill described above -- most management is done manually. the criteria will be less restrictive going forward as limitations are taken care of

Weber wrote:

It honestly feels like a wasted opportunity as there is still NO incentive for anyone outside the guild to be involved with featured artists in any way whatsoever.

Monstrata wrote:

I agree with Sieg too. There are quite a few mappers who have made Featured Artist maps of their own volition even before the start of Mappers' Guild. They didn't do it for rewards of course, but now it seems like they've been excluded from this inner circle.
quoted from the application criteria in the op: "You've shown an interest in mapping featured artist songs. This point is especially worth considering if you want to apply next round!"
as it moves towards more public accessibility, showing interest by mapping featured artist songs will increase likelihood of joining the guild (especially for the following rounds (hint: it'll be a baseline requirement))
when it's publicly accessible eventually, incentives won't be a concern

Weber wrote:

Also, what incentive is there to get people from other game-modes involved if there's no guarantee they'll ever be rewarded in a similar way by staff, especially since getting those started on their own would be way more difficult due to the lack of numbers overall compared to standard?
there was no guarantee we'd be getting rewarded either. the current guild started around august of last year and received rewards 2 days ago. producing something for your game-mode would be more productive than giving up immediately

Monstrata wrote:

This is just speaking from experience with mapping commissions, but the point value for lower difficulties is far too high in comparison to higher diffs for the amount of effort needed.

Kroytz/Hobbes2 wrote:

same
may be worth changing scaling diff values. gonna gather opinions

Monstrata wrote:

I realize that one of the original objectives was to have people be able to "claim" or "bid" on certain songs and have exclusive access to mapping that particular song (with no one else in the guild being able to make another set for it). I don't know if that's still on the table though.
as you probably know, that's more on nyquill's end with the bot stuff. it's not happening right now but it may some time down the line

Logic Agent wrote:

yeah the bar is way too high. i don't think it takes 10 ranked sets to understand how the ranking criteria works.

Hobbes2 wrote:

Btw why is the requirement 10?
minimum criteria will loosen as we accept more users. we're taking people with a relatively high amount of experience with ranking their maps before expanding for reasons explained earlier

My Angel Digi wrote:

So you're looking for extremely elite mappers, but these elite mappers are still only part-time?

Noffy wrote:

And out of this selective group of people, you don't even have permission to map your own set for it unless you're really active in the group?
to use some examples (no offense to them), one mapper last round hadn't finished a guest difficulty he signed up for by the deadline. after a week or so he hadn't made progress, so the difficulty was turned into a collab. if a new member signs up and can't uphold their guest difficulty responsibilities, it's not a huge problem because they can be easily finished by other means.

the same isn't true about hosting a mapset though. one new member last round was assigned a mapset and by the deadline for mapset completion, he hadn't completed any difficulties on his set. 2 weeks after the deadline when maps were being prepared for rank, he still wasn't done, and filling the set with guest difficulties could only go so far.

so basically if someone can show commitment to their tasks in their entry round, they'll move up to full-time. if they can't, they'll stay at part-time where not following through with responsibilities doesn't have the same impact

------

for those interested in numbers, there's been 30 applicants so far!!
posted
I still think this is very dumb, and featured maps shouldn't be given any special privileges in the ranking process. All maps should be treated fairly and on equal grounds.
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