Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I still prefer the feature request where EZ just allows the player to set the CS & AR to whatever they want so it’s actually “easier” and then decrease OD and HP like it does currently. This way EZ mod actually works more an intended and not as some weird sometimes easier sometimes harder mod depending on the map

What if they set it to harder?

abraker wrote:

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I still prefer the feature request where EZ just allows the player to set the CS & AR to whatever they want so it’s actually “easier” and then decrease OD and HP like it does currently. This way EZ mod actually works more an intended and not as some weird sometimes easier sometimes harder mod depending on the map

What if they set it to harder?

Then that’s their own prerogative but the HR mod should be for increasing PP due to increase difficulty. The EZ mod being allowed to set the values would make it indeed easier and then would warrant the score/PP reduction

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I still prefer the feature request where EZ just allows the player to set the CS & AR to whatever they want so it’s actually “easier” and then decrease OD and HP like it does currently. This way EZ mod actually works more an intended and not as some weird sometimes easier sometimes harder mod depending on the map

as a ez player i strongly disagree upon changing cs and ar to whatever the player want

I still prefer an option to manually adjust AR, OD, etc... and keep and leave the insane EZ and HR the same.

Kondou-Shinichi wrote:

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I still prefer the feature request where EZ just allows the player to set the CS & AR to whatever they want so it’s actually “easier” and then decrease OD and HP like it does currently. This way EZ mod actually works more an intended and not as some weird sometimes easier sometimes harder mod depending on the map

as a ez player i strongly disagree upon changing cs and ar to whatever the player want

The current Easy was never meant to be this way though. Back in the day with old mapping metas it actually made the game easier. The new mapping meta has completely messed up its original intention. In Taiko & Mania EZ is still a mod that only makes things easier and doesn’t add any sort of reading difficulty. So in short, the current EZ is broken and should be fixed, not make the PP system adjust for the brokenness.

I think the best way to do it would be to make reading density a factor in how pp is calculated. For example, 5 notes on the screen at once will yield less pp than 11 notes on the screen.

Wolther wrote:

I think the best way to do it would be to make reading density a factor in how pp is calculated. For example, 5 notes on the screen at once will yield less pp than 11 notes on the screen.

Suppose a map with notes placed randomly throughout every 163 ms and there is only one section with a structured pattern that also has notes placed 163 ms apart. The map is AR0 (1800ms visible timespan):

Pattern A:
Consider a stream of notes going off in one direction, each following note spaced 1 times the CS apart from the previous note

Pattern B:
Consider a star shape pattern of 5 notes, each following note 4 times the CS apart from the previous note

What is the expected difficulty of the structured sections isolated from the rest of the map?
What is the expected difficulty of the structured sections not isolated from the rest of the map?

Now how do you derive the expected difficulty for both?


this is the stuff and consideration I have to deal with when trying to figure out how to make the damn reading formula for osu!skills

hard to weight specific patterns relative to each other properly because in that regard reading is super subjective, some people are good at stars but bad at squares, good at squares bad at stars, good at spaced streams bad at jumps etc

AR is an even bigger wild card, we know the meta is like ar9-9.6, that doesn't mean there aren't players who specialize in lower or higher, but that doesn't make them better.

and you can't really tell how good an ez player is vs a nomod player because of how different they are.

One thing you could try is to normalize everything on a map minus the AR and compare their performance on it, and even then it's not really fair because all the time the ez player spent improving in high density reading was spent by the nomod player primarily on acc or hitting smaller circles so it's a tradeoff either way. Just two very different playstyles... You can meet in the middle in AR/CS maybe, like if an ez player is used to cs2 ar4 and a nomod player is used to cs4 ar9, make the map ar6-6.5 and cs3-3.5? Only issue is they'll both be out of their comfort zone but hopefully equally so. Changing the OD will only disadvantage the ez player though so maybe keep those at their usual. Acc pp isn't intended to be rebalanced here anyway.

Just shooting ideas and how to help evaluate the mod. It's probably always going to be a penalty just due to the OD decreasing either way, unless some low ar reading pp bonus implemented, and even then, it should only be in the most difficult EZ maps that the bonus is enough to completely make up for the acc pp loss by the huge reduction in OD that ez brings.

Anything that results in a more accurate rank for ez players is welcome... Ekoro is laughably underrated.

Fix speed pp while you're at it

How about measuring Note Density?

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

hard to weight specific patterns relative to each other properly because in that regard reading is super subjective, some people are good at stars but bad at squares, good at squares bad at stars, good at spaced streams bad at jumps etc

basically this

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

One thing you could try is to normalize everything on a map minus the AR and compare their performance on it, and even then it's not really fair because all the time the ez player spent improving in high density reading was spent by the nomod player primarily on acc or hitting smaller circles so it's a tradeoff either way.

yea normalizing can get you so far

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

It's probably always going to be a penalty just due to the OD decreasing either way, unless some low ar reading pp bonus implemented, and even then, it should only be in the most difficult EZ maps that the bonus is enough to completely make up for the acc pp loss by the huge reduction in OD that ez brings.

Most reading errors center around keep track of which note to hit next, not the timing of it. The decrease in AR makes it so much harder in that regard despite the timing leniency. In fact, the timing leniency would allow you to hit the wrong note earlier instead of being note locked, disallowing you to correct yourself by guessing another note.

Actually, I already wrote for which patterns the penalty would apply in an earlier post:

• abraker wrote:

  For maps which have notes spaced apart far enough in duration and distance, you should get reduced pp since decreased CS and AR have a smaller effect on difficulty than the advantage decreased OD gives. In maps where notes are spaced close in duration, distance, or both, you should get the extra pp as the increased quantity of various visible features requires better reading efficiency.

Zozimoto wrote:

How about measuring Note Density?

you did not read

The mod itself doesn't cause any pp deficiency, it only does that to the score. The pp is equal to the Circle Size, and the Overall Difficulty.

EZ mod wasnt planned as a mod for increasing difficulty. I am 99% shure no one from development team could imagine It would make the game harder for most of modern maps.
But for PP Count it is just lower CS and OD - it is actually quite a lot of PP to lose. Just try to play any map with lovering your CS and OD values to a EZ ones (use McOsu), but dont change AR. Easy? Yes. And that is how EZ mod should work. It is created for map to be easily played for novice players, not for some guys to show off their reading skills. That's the only right solution I can see with current pp state
Adding "reading" parameter to PP? First, it is so much personal, you cant imagine. I can easily read AR8, though for my friends it is not that much easy. Also, what about easy diffs? Or you need a god skill to play Easy and Normal?

Zozimoto wrote:

How about measuring Note Density?

It will make stream maps too overrated. And how are you going to measure slider density or some hard to read patterns? And if you have a solution even for this, what about Monstrata's Transform?

abraker wrote:

Figuring out how much pp EZ should give is on the subject of figuring out how to quantify reading skill, which is something yet to be figured out

Except that this didn't stop HD and FL to give an enormous boost in PP and score either.
All the arguments being brought up against EZ can be applied to HD and FL as well, yet the latter are rewarded heavily by the current system.


HD is just as ambiguous as EZ. Sometimes harder, sometimes easier. For some it feels way easier to play, for some it feels super hard. Yet here we are with HD granting you a whopping 6% scoreboost which is just as much as HR gives, and on top of that we also get the 8% extra aim pp and 2% acc pp, even though no real changes were made to the map or its values.
To some people HD is pretty much a natural ability as long the AR doesn't dip below 8,5 and ends up being a free pp and scoreboost for these people. (There's a reason everybody abuses HD on higher rankings, starting around 5-4 digits with HDHR and HDDT especially.) Most people will agree that HD actually makes high AR way easier, which is what you'll always be playing when you also use the other two most rewarding mods (HR / DT).
Don't get me started on FL which is an even bigger boost to score and pp, and while it does differ from HD in that you can't sightread most maps with it, it still doesn't increase the physical difficulty of a map, but ends up increasing your pp and score anyway.


EZ does alter OD and CS. CS is a subjective difficulty. Most people can't play CS1-3, even though you would think that it makes it so much easier to aim. It really just is the acc value that is easier, pretty much everything else is subjective, but it is undisputable that EZ makes a lot of maps a nightmare to play. There's a reason almost noone plays this mod.

It is actually detrimental to your pp and scores, and it is very hard (as in: the amount of time you have to spend to learn to read it), which is what turns most ppl off.



The argument of "Reading shouldn't be rewarded because it's a can of worms." is invalid. The can of worms has already been opened with HD and FL. The HD mod is the biggest offender for this category. HD is absolutely free on pretty much 99% of modern farm maps and will end up granting you approximately 10% increased pp gain for 0 changes in terms of how the map is played, or in how strict your aim / acc has to be.

Rayne wrote:

All the arguments being brought up against EZ can be applied to HD and FL as well, yet the latter are rewarded heavily by the current system.

FL is its own can of worms. HD is in about the same bunch as EZ, but before we start talking about HD, we need to figure out EZ.

make ar customizeable without penalty

Eraser wrote:

make ar customizeable without penalty

no because certain ranked maps depend on ar as a reading gimmick

xenonius wrote:

Eraser wrote:

make ar customizeable without penalty

no because certain ranked maps depend on ar as a reading gimmick

losing a few gimmick maps or removing this reading problem from the equation immediately
your choice

that would be great.
even tough im new to this game, i tried easy mod and i was so confused and it seemed way harder than without this mod.

I think increasing the multiplier would also be better!

Eraser wrote:

make ar customizeable without penalty

I absolutely disagree on the "without penalty"

you won't be able to read ar9 if you could change maps' ar since the beginning

YES ez should be called hr and hr should be called ez cuz ez is more difficult and majority of players cant read low ar