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Hard = the not-so-new Insane - why ?

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Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
Go ahead, good luck on your way to ranking

If diff names is what you care of the most, I ain't gonna give shit, I'd rather make cool maps
Last edited by Natteke , edited 1 time in total.
mochi
779 posts
Joined June 2010
mochi

Natteke wrote:

Here's the deal: name your diffs as you like and let others name their diffs as they like, the peace shall come upon us
That's the problem. I can name my insane as hard difficulty and it won't get ranked because a MAT/BAT will tell me to map an actual hard difficulty while some other mappers might get lucky and get their maps ranked even though they pulled the same stunt as me.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
Call your Insane Burito and Hard — Nachos. Sounds nice to me!
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
That's actually better than calling it a difficulty leve that it clearly is not.

But I can see that you'll never understand that newer players would like to have an estimation of difficulty for the maps. You know, because they don't just play the hardest one regardless.

Whatever, I'm wasting my time, I'm outta here
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell
The haters will hate and the cries will cry. People who don't care about "names" will get better and wont argue about it, people who do will stay as they are.

When I started playing osu! I didn't care about "names", I was happy if I could pass this or that particular song, and now I am even more happy that I can pass them on even harder difficulties, I didn't cry on forums that I coulnd't pass a song because I didn't like the name of it especially on older songs with the "Hards" there when I just started osu! and that songs/difficulties were way more "unbalanced" than today's "Hards".

Even now I see a song and can't pass it? So what? Even if it would be called "Supereasy" I wouldn't mind if I couldn't pass it, because probably more than half of all osu! player wont pass it either and even if they could, so what? There is no ranking showing how many "Hard's" I passed and how many "Insane's".
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
mfw people talk for newbies as if they know what newbies think, I once was a newbie and didn't care how diffs were named, all I cared about were the songs that I know and wether or not they are mapped on osu
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Same, who cares about hard being somewhat insanes... you guys are not Nappa enough I mean manly.
Gon
455 posts
Joined November 2010
Gon
less QQ more circlesmash
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Chasing the dots.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp

ErufenRito wrote:

Oh I see, never noticed that each song has a "star difficulty" labeled on them (I don't own any of those games), and I suppose that those games uses the song's bpm to measure the stars?
No, that's actually a very foolish metric - at least, when used stand-alone. It takes into consideration the actual technical difficulty of each song. How hard the song actually is to play - fingering, timing, that sort of thing. Faster doesn't mean harder. A 140BPM song with double bass, a hi-hat on the 4ths and a snare on the backbeat is loads easier to play than a 100BPM song with the bass playing in thirds.

For osu!, it would be things like mixing triplets into patterns, switching between down-beat and up-beat patterns, that sort of thing.


La Cataline wrote:

What's wrong in having my own criteria of what is Hard or Insane?
Because you are not everyone, which is the intended audience of a ranked map. As also suggested here:

Natteke wrote:

Eh, I guess it's pretty pointless to explain this all over again.

For sakura this will be Very Hard
For me it's Hard
For Cookiezi it's Easy
For newbie it's not even rankable
This is correct from an individual's perspective. But difficulties and the naming thereof should never be treated as subjective nor based on the observer. A Hard difficulty is always a hard difficulty. You may find it impossible, or you may find it piss-easy, but it's still called "Hard" for a reason - because it falls within a specific range of challenge.

The entire point of the ranking system is to establish standards. That should be all that needs to be said.
dNextGen
dNextGen

Natteke wrote:

I once was a newbie and didn't care how diffs were named
+1

peoples why u like to argue about something that utterly useless
palion
172 posts
Joined October 2011
palion
love how OP doesnt even respond
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Consistency is nice to have but no matter what the difficulties are named I'll just try each one until I find the one that is right for me anyway. It's much more important that the mapset have a decent spread to cater to players of various skill levels. They can find which difficulty is right on their own.
lkjl23
207 posts
Joined July 2010
lkjl23
...
Last edited by lkjl23 , edited 1 time in total.
Rena-chan
Topic Starter
Rena-chan

NeverDie wrote:

This IS on a hard level. Tired of seeing trash players like renachan always complaining about this shit. The fact I can DT this with 97% shows how damn easy it is. Learn to play, get with the times. There was no reason to making a thread whining about this, stop being such a mediocre player. In the end you don't HAVE to play this. I really hope someone punches your face multiple times in real life one day.

Oh, and for the record, you suck as a player. You're completely utterly trash. Stop over-exaggerating the skills you don't have. You're just a crap player that can barely 90% any decent insane song, let alone play with mods. If you WERE any decent, you wouldn't be complaining about this in the first place.
Okay Mr. Cheater. But my skill level is entirely not related to this topic.
A8mew
74 posts
Joined February 2010
A8mew
That's just what this thread was missing.

Unwarranted hostility and skill bashing.

Oh well. IMO there needs to be more consistency in difficulty naming (if standard names are used) but it doesn't seem anyone can agree on it.
Rena-chan
Topic Starter
Rena-chan

A8mew wrote:

That's just what this thread was missing.

Unwarranted hostility and skill bashing.

Oh well. IMO there needs to be more consistency in difficulty naming (if standard names are used) but it doesn't seem anyone can agree on it.
That's NeverDie for you. Take it with a grain of salt. Anyhow, that's basically what the initial point of this thread is, and if you read the posts, at least some people agree to it as well (read: awp, for one). Personally I'm pretty sure it's something that won't ever change unless someone comes up with specific rules for when a map should be named Hard, and when it should be named Insane. Not just guidelines, but clear, black-on-white rules with no grey areas. I'm glad to see some people agreeing at least, even though you are low in numbers.
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell

Rena-chan wrote:

Personally I'm pretty sure it's something that won't ever change unless someone comes up with specific rules for when a map should be named Hard, and when it should be named Insane. Not just guidelines, but clear, black-on-white rules with no grey areas.
If someone will do it someday then I will be the first to call it a "no-life". Just thinking of the possibilities where you can't really decide which one is suited for this or that will just give you a headache just because of thinking about it. Even if it would be made possible, I am sure that a custom name will quickly solve that "issue". Just call it "Harder" instead of "Hard" xD But in the end, who cares about "names"?
A8mew
74 posts
Joined February 2010
A8mew
Well, if its called "Harder" instead of "Hard", its vague enough that you can just take it at whatever difficulty it plays at.

I don't care personally if your difficulty spread is [Lemondrop], [Gilly Suit] and [Happiness Sunshine Explosion]. They don't mean anything, so Happiness Sunshine Explosion could be a hard or it could be an insane... who cares. You can interpret it.

But the base four difficulties that've been around from the start (Easy/Normal/Hard/Insane) have more or less defined meanings. There's definately some fuzzy room where you can argue a map is either or, and nothing but hard rules about what belongs in what kind of difficulty will eliminate that wiggle room. You can even argue this wiggle room is a good thing.

But if there is a map that is very clearly an Insane, people can agree upon as an Insane difficulty, etc... it shouldn't be called Easy, Normal or Hard. Those difficulties are listed when you go through the map list on the website, they are (incredibly roughly) indicated with star values and are part of ranking criteria. Using them inappropriately (naming an Easy as Insane or vice versa, as an example) is misleading to people trying to figure out if its within their abilities or not.

Not that its something that keeps me up at night dreading the ranking of a map with a misleading difficulty name, but for the sake of consistency and the portion of the playerbase who actually try to use difficulty names as a judge of difficulty (the poor bastards) its an issue that probably needs to be considered as osu! moves into 2012.
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell
For that purpose the "star" system should be optimized and not the names given by mappers, since lately there are tons of maps with guest difficulties which not always say they are "normal" or "hard". For simply lvl orientation for "new" players the star system is enough (in most cases). After about several days of osu! I guess any "new player" will understand which names and what star and so one means what and how the game works.

Also I doubt that the "skill" can be shown simply by passing "Hards" or "Insanes".
shaNk_old
48 posts
Joined June 2011
shaNk_old
rena-chan, ur pretty bad first of all, and its completely irrelevant to discuss

please go f urself

you need to be more grateful to what you have, does it really fucking matter to you what diff it is? jesus fucking christ no wonder peppys getting sick of this bs, just shut the fuck up and play

and on a personal note of mine, you really need to get some dick sometime soon, jesus fuck
knjiga
164 posts
Joined February 2011
knjiga
Sure this map is slightly harder then 90% hards. Still, the fact that other 90% hards are of apropriate difficulty means that "Hard = the not-so-new Insane" is untrue.

Why make such hassle over one(or possibly couple more) map, when it is basically just an honest/simple mistake that has no effect on anything?
Waryas
Waryas
oh wow this got ranked? one of my favourite umineko soundtrack..
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Rena-chan wrote:

I'm pretty sure this has been brought up before, but really.

Why is it that obvious Insane difficulties are being labeled as Hard and ranked like that ?
I'm going to use this (07th Expansion - miragecoordinator) as an example here. "Hard" is a fairly streamy difficulty with lots of jumps and spacing changes, and while we all know that star rating doesn't always work well, it's not that difficult to map a proper Hard difficulty that doesn't have a 4.93 rating. Is this really what a Hard should look like ?

Or is it that BATs just don't give half a fuck about what they're ranking as long as it's "technically rankable" ?
It's not exactly a rare occurrence from what I've seen either.

Now before anyone goes "hurr you can't play hawrd", I'd like to state that I can, indeed, easily play Insane difficulties, just to clear up misunderstandings before they're made. This isn't about skill level, it's about wrong labeling and laziness.
1) the difficulty classification is pretty subjective. Why? someone has easier time with certain things, someother with other thing
2) 3-standard spread are allowed an harder Hard difficulty for a wider spread
3) This is an example of one of the baddest spread i did ever see

To other people
1) Stop attacking other people
2) Stop saying blasphene curses in your posts
3) Stop making such an unuseful hassle over nothing( to all peoples )
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
At this point i think mappers just want to name thier Insanes "Hard" to avoid the max 2 Insane rule
xsrsbsns
1,936 posts
Joined July 2010
xsrsbsns
Let's just use character/stuff names as difficulty names so no one can complain. owait
palion
172 posts
Joined October 2011
palion

NeverDie wrote:

This IS on a hard level. Tired of seeing trash players like renachan always complaining about this shit. The fact I can DT this with 97% shows how damn easy it is. Learn to play, get with the times. There was no reason to making a thread whining about this, stop being such a mediocre player. In the end you don't HAVE to play this. I really hope someone punches your face multiple times in real life one day.

Oh, and for the record, you suck as a player. You're completely utterly trash. Stop over-exaggerating the skills you don't have. You're just a crap player that can barely 90% any decent insane song, let alone play with mods. If you WERE any decent, you wouldn't be complaining about this in the first place.
hey nd deleting all bgs, sbs, and skins is what cool kids do ye
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell

palion wrote:

hey nd deleting all bgs, sbs, and skins is what cool kids do ye
That's what I do few seconds after I have downloaded the map :)
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
And that's what you should do.
Deleting maps parts kinda destroy a mapper works
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

And that's what you should do.
Deleting maps parts kinda destroy a mapper works
Took from an other thread.

Wishy22 wrote:

Ok let's do this:

Video = enter youtube, download it and include it in the map. No real work done.
BG = google images. No real work done.
SB = Usually some work here is actually done, and honestly I don't always delete SBs because they are not THAT annoying (sometimes) and they may even be useful (x2 warning).

Therefore the only real complaint from the pov of "mapper's work" should be the SB, which then again even peppy offered the community a toggle to disable it so...

PD: Playing maps with black BG and your own skin is the most damn fun thing you can do in this game.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Sure?
You have to remove the AUDIO from videos, and if you do it bad the video quality is screwed ( I usually take some hour to resize the video to a good quality and dimensions ).
You have to find a decent BG that DO fit the music, and that does take some time (from 10 minutes to 30)
You have to create a Skin and that take SOME HOURS or EVEN MORE
You have to create at least some images for the SB, if not you can lose time, an SB can take days.

So now you're sure that deleting map elements is a good thing?
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
I'm sorry but, there are some mappers that adds map's elements that are just too retarded, and makes no sense (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/17670 the most recent one that I have played with such stupid SB, I mean happy30 makes some great maps, but when s/he does something like this, makes me want to slap him/her :<)

And anyways, we are deviating the topic a bit, ain't we?

on topic: I guess that the root of all this kind of problems is the fact that the BAT isn't actually a solid team, seeing at how we can just find another BAT to rank if one doesn't agree, and usually that is when stuff like this happens.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I think we're going a bit off-topic here, instead why not open a thread about it, or better yet, discuss it here
lkjl23
207 posts
Joined July 2010
lkjl23
...
Last edited by lkjl23 , edited 1 time in total.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

NeverDie wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Sure?
You have to remove the AUDIO from videos, and if you do it bad the video quality is screwed ( I usually take some hour to resize the video to a good quality and dimensions ).
You have to find a decent BG that DO fit the music, and that does take some time (from 10 minutes to 30)
You have to create a Skin and that take SOME HOURS or EVEN MORE
You have to create at least some images for the SB, if not you can lose time, an SB can take days.

So now you're sure that deleting map elements is a good thing?
This is why you're a noob and we're the pros. It's ALWAYS noobs defending SB/BG. You'll never see anyone that has top tier skill supporting SB/BG. Coincidence? No.
"We're the pros" makes you sound unbelievably predictably up yourself. It's fair enough that people who want the highest scores would want as few distractions as possible, but some people actually play this game for fun and would enjoy a map's presentational extras if they don't encroach on the gameplay itself. That's not being a noob. That's called enjoying somebody's creation as it was intended to be.

Those who play this, or any other game, competitively are entitled to do so, but it sickens me when they talk down on people who play the game their way and for fun. It's fairly sad.

On topic, it bothered me in particular when I played 'Starry Eyed' for the first time and its [Hard] was filled with streams and awkward jumps. Calling an Insane a Hard is just an excuse to get away with not making a full mapset. Either make a Hard difficulty which is actually one above a Normal, or call the Insane map [Insane] and make another map. It bothers me in particular that this is often done by experienced mappers who know that they can get away with this and yet they could knock up another difficulty with very little... Difficulty.

I think that there should be more definable rules/guidelines for what differentiates [Hard] from [Insane]--most notably, whether or not streams are used extensively. These days, I like the idea of restricting the use of 1/4 to stacks of two or three circles. Any more would begin to require precise alternation between fingers, which begins to encroach into [Insane] territory. Long streams--especially uncompressed streams have no place in a [Hard] difficulty, and should therefore warrant it being called [Insane], especially if the star count exceeds 4.5.

This should be common sense, but mappers flout it regularly in the name of laziness or overzealousness to produce something flashy. Map tastefully, people.

Oh God, I keep finding more comedy gold in this thread. La Cataline's assertion that her difficulties' standards should be arbitrated by her is laughable and that was a mouthful of a statement. No single player or mapper can decide on the universal standards of this game; nor can a single tier of players. This hivemind of "Hey, we're all better than you and you should bend to our standards" is what narrows a game's appeal to those who are either experienced or those who enjoy steep learning curves. It alienates anybody else who would want to play the game.
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell

D33d wrote:

No single player or mapper can decide on the universal standards of this game; nor can a single tier of players. This hivemind of "Hey, we're all better than you and you should bend to our standards" is what narrows a game's appeal to those who are either experienced or those who enjoy steep learning curves. It alienates anybody else who would want to play the game.
Do you mean that there should be no rules at all? Since there is always someone behind them anyway, call it admin, mod, pro or noob, just a matter of name.
xsrsbsns
1,936 posts
Joined July 2010
xsrsbsns

D33d wrote:

Those who play this, or any other game, competitively are entitled to do so, but it sickens me when they talk down on people who play the game their way and for fun. It's fairly sad.
Did you get confused between the two groups?

People who delete elements get talked down upon because they play the game their own way and for competitive fun.
We don't care if you never delete elements, and certainly won't bitch about it. It's actually the other way round.
dNextGen
dNextGen
as always,defining hard and insane is always comes down to personal preference
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

xsrsbsns wrote:

D33d wrote:

Those who play this, or any other game, competitively are entitled to do so, but it sickens me when they talk down on people who play the game their way and for fun. It's fairly sad.
Did you get confused between the two groups?

People who delete elements get talked down upon because they play the game their own way and for competitive fun.
We don't care if you never delete elements, and certainly won't bitch about it. It's actually the other way round.
Excuse my ignorance. In that case, imagine that statement being directed at NeverDie.

Personally, I'm not big on deleting elements, because it means that the player isn't playing the same map as everybody else. However, that's their loss if they don't get to see pretty storyboards.

Also, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any rules. I'm saying that the rules should always be universal and objective and apply to everybody; as in, nobody gets to bend/break any rules just because they're experienced. Also, defining hard and insane comes down partially to personal preference, but it's usually extremely obvious when the difficulty is being pushed too far.
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell

D33d wrote:

Also, defining hard and insane comes down partially to personal preference,
Yes

D33d wrote:

but it's usually extremely obvious when the difficulty is being pushed too far.
No. Example, Year ago I coulnd't even pass this http://osu.ppy.sh/b/27035 but now I pass it 100% and it seems so EASY to me. Doesn't even deserve "Insane" to me.
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