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posted
Well let's start answering your questions.

Endaris wrote:

Noticing that you don't have a single FL score in Top 50 I cannot help but quote CXu:
"Anyone who has never played FL seriously should not talk about the skills required to play FL."
You are a decent player judging from your profile so please go ahead and FC a 4* map with 400 combo or higher. If you ask for ridiculous things such as deleting an entire mod from the game, you should have a very strong foundation about it and from the looks of it you never really bothered with it in the first place.
You are right, I have less to none FL plays, the only good FL play that I have it's a pokemon map "https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1412291" FC 2x100 99.33 with easy mod, just becouse I found it fun to FC with FL and Easy so i canno't talk very much about FL plays, but i think i have exp enough to backup mi quotes and also I just made that play becouse i found FL and EZ the hardest mods. But when I said that FL was easy, it's just in some way, I mean this becouse it's really diff to balance the mod in the game. I will write more of this later in this coment. Yeah, I shouldn't say that FL should be eliminated from the game, becouse in my hole coment i wasn't argue that, and sadly all of the coment's answering me focus on that. I said that becouse FL it's a really diff mod to balance if you think hard enough. Plays with more duration should give you more PP with FL, becouse you have to memorise more map, that in a 30 second map. Plays with low circle size should give you more PP with FL, becouse you have to memorize more precise where the circle is. Plays with long jumps should give more PP with FL becouse you have to meomrise and act in consecuence of things that you cannot see only memorise. So programing all of this, is nearly imposible to do it automatic, you will have to review all of the maps to watch carefully how much PP they will give with FL, and becouse of that I think that is easier to just delete it the mod. But I think about it later on when I post this, I came to another conclussion, you guys are right, if this is well programed, will be no problem, so i think that you don't need to eliminated FL but if is going to leave the things like this, it's better to fix the problems that have. So I said all of this things to you to prove that I have a "very strong foundation about it" and not only look like I never think about FL, I will expose this same arguments in another post as I said in mi main coment

Darkan996 wrote:

I will make another post on how to kinda fix FL problem, I have think about it and the best option it's just delete it from the game, it's has a lot of controvensyal involved if you think heavely arround it.
I wasn't argue in this coment why FL should be eliminate it, it was only that FL needs a change in the multp. Sadly looks like no one has understand mi point.

Emersyne wrote:

Guy with no HD or FL plays wants to talk about how map reading mods don't take any skill.

You are right I have no FL or HD plays in my top at least. I have a hard time reading HD hahaha. But i will explain why "FL takes no skill" at least in some way. Reding songs it's very hard, specially with HD, i cannot read songs of my level with HD, I never sayd that reading it's an easy skill. I said that FL it's easy, and it is! Think it closely, It's hard to make an FL play? Yes becouse you have to memorise the map you don't have to "Read FL", what you do it's memorise the map. But if a player continiusly plays a map, he memorise it completely and FL FC it, it's that really skill? Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it. The reason becouse i said that takes no skill, it's becouse even Cookiezi the best player in the world, could failed a jumpy map with FL, and he is the guy with MORE SKILL IN THE WORLD, but even him couldn't FC it in the first time. He will have (as anybody alse in 5* fc lvl of skill do) to memorise the map. It's not about skill it's about memory.

abraker wrote:

Is this some kind of new copy pasta?
What do you mean?

Piixers wrote:

Just to remember that in the game there are also easy and normal diffs that are always played with FL (3-4 mods) and there is a community that plays these maps every day to make tops 50, 8 and above all #1's. FL in high-star difficulties can be considered more like a fun and not a mod to improve... but delete FL means delete a large community that you probably don't even know.
You are right, i don't wanna lose that community, that's why I reconsiderate my mind about it. I answer this in the early paragraphs of this comment.
posted

Darkan996 wrote:

What do you mean?
That was my reaction to how insane this suggestion is. It must be a copy-paste meme. It might not appear insane to you, but you kinda went on a rant that screams how you hate the top scores being all FL while the mod being irrelevant to your desired skillset. If you did attempt to say anything reasonable, than that hatred of yours toward FL spoke louder.

Darkan996 wrote:

Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it.
Memorizing the map while it is visible is one thing, but while it is invisible, that's another. While the map is visible, you are playing it by reaction and reading most of the time. You need to memorize select few parts which tend to trip you up. FL requires more memorization of note locations, and that impacts performance since you are now recalling from memory instead of reacting and reading. It's easier to look and react than to recall from memory.

Darkan996 wrote:

Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it. The reason becouse i said that takes no skill, it's becouse even Cookiezi the best player in the world, could failed a jumpy map with FL, and he is the guy with MORE SKILL IN THE WORLD, but even him couldn't FC it in the first time. He will have (as anybody alse in 5* fc lvl of skill do) to memorise the map. It's not about skill it's about memory.
You say FL has no skill because it only deals with memorization. That it is an easy thing to do given enough time. Stop and think about it. Everything in osu! is an easy thing to do given enough time. There is a reason you hear the most popular saying when a player cries to the community asking how to get better, "play more". Reading -infinity AR is an easy thing to do given enough time. 300 BPM jumps is an easy thing to do given enough time. Anything will get easier if you practice it, and while you are practicing it, you learn how to do it, and learning is entirely memory based.

All your skills are aspects of your memory. To do those things, the player needs to develop various memories for such things, memories that are independent of FL and are unrelated to recollecting note positions. It's remembering how fingers should tap, remembering how a jump should turn, remembering how the movement of a star pattern, etc. A non FL player is too dependent on reading notes and reacting to what is on screen to develop a well enough memory for note positions or "picture" of patterns in the map. To say FL doesn't require skill is being either ignorant of FL requiring some sort of skill or being ignorant that memorization of certain information is a skill (maybe both?).

--------------------------------------

Ok, so hopefully we established that FL requires a type of skill only specific to it. So does this mean FL is overated? Yes and no. You should know that difficulty calculation is fucked as hell and very inaccurate at times. More so that star rating doesn't consider FL. Flat multiplier also doesn't do justice when you consider repetitive/technical map, which may need less effort to memorize than a more chaotic map with same star rating. I am always an advocate in abolishing the flat multipliers, but before that can be done, difficulty calc needs to get its shit together.


Try to think about what I said and think about what kind of challenges FL gives the player. Consider extremely long maps and how much memorizing them might be worth. Start playing FL and come back when you have at least a bit of the perspective an FL player would have. You may learn a thing or two.

I want to see more FL plays here:
posted

abraker wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

What do you mean?
That was my reaction to how insane this suggestion is. It must be a copy-paste meme. It might not appear insane to you, but you kinda went on a rant that screams how you hate the top scores being all FL while the mod being irrelevant to your desired skillset. If you did attempt to say anything reasonable, than that hatred of yours toward FL spoke louder.
Well at least in my level of playing, the top scores all allways HDHR or DTHD, don't know what low level top plays you play. So I really don't care if the top play is or not FL.

abraker wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it.
Memorizing the map while it is visible is one thing, but while it is invisible, that's another. While the map is visible, you are playing it by reaction and reading most of the time. You need to memorize select few parts which tend to trip you up. FL requires more memorization of note locations, and that impacts performance since you are now recalling from memory instead of reacting and reading. It's easier to look and react than to recall from memory.
What you say here just recalls what i am saying. Bassicly FL is all just memory, wich is a skill only required for FL mods, at least in mayor way. I even state in some part of my comment that FL it's one of the hardest mods with the game, (same as EZ) and now I said that both of them are kinda memory base. FL a lot more than EZ, EZ it's a reading mod, one of the most harder mods in the entire game.

abraker wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it. The reason becouse i said that takes no skill, it's becouse even Cookiezi the best player in the world, could failed a jumpy map with FL, and he is the guy with MORE SKILL IN THE WORLD, but even him couldn't FC it in the first time. He will have (as anybody alse in 5* fc lvl of skill do) to memorise the map. It's not about skill it's about memory.
You say FL has no skill because it only deals with memorization. That it is an easy thing to do given enough time. Stop and think about it. Everything in osu! is an easy thing to do given enough time. There is a reason you hear the most popular saying when a player cries to the community asking how to get better, "play more". Reading -infinity AR is an easy thing to do given enough time. 300 BPM jumps is an easy thing to do given enough time. Anything will get easier if you practice it, and while you are practicing it, you learn how to do it, and learning is entirely memory based.

All your skills are aspects of your memory. To do those things, the player needs to develop various memories for such things, memories that are independent of FL and are unrelated to recollecting note positions. It's remembering how fingers should tap, remembering how a jump should turn, remembering how the movement of a star pattern, etc. A non FL player is too dependent on reading notes and reacting to what is on screen to develop a well enough memory for note positions or "picture" of patterns in the map. To say FL doesn't require skill is being either ignorant of FL requiring some sort of skill or being ignorant that memorization of certain information is a skill (maybe both?).
Yeah FL only deals with memorization a skill that isn't almost unneed in the rest of the game only for a few exceptions (talking about only the current rankign system), the problem with "Yeah just play more osu! and you will be better!!" It's true, but it dosen't fully aply in FL... You see, if you play a lot A LOT OF FL like a man who only plays with HD, A TON OF FL, ONLY FL MAIN SINCE BETTA (Kappa) you will be better!! But only with the song that you play with FL.... If you practice ar9.5 keep on practice, you will be better with ALL the songs with ar9.5, but not with FL, since memory only is usefull in one map at the time. I have said this i and will say this again (becouse looks like you don't even read the hole coment lol) I said that FL was easy becouse it's an easy mode in some way, but in another is the most difficult one of all mods! Imagine, even cookiezi AKA the best player in the world, will never FC any map with 5.6 stars or more with FL in his first time, Cookiezi and none one. So if you take that in account it's the hardest mod! But FL sucks becouse it's dosent reward you for beeing a good player, it's reward you for playing the map over and over hundreds of times, and memorize it. The reason becouse I said it's easy is that, becouse a normie lvl player like me could win in a 1vs1 againts anybody if we play a map that I had an FC with FL on it and he havent even play it for the first time. Anybody literally. It's easy for me but hard for them. It's takes no skill becouse, it's dosent reward you for have skill, (even if you are an ONLY FL player you will NEVER fc a FL map at first try).

But still, that isnt the point of the post, the point was, thinking if we should lower the multp of FL becouse it's anti-intuitive that a mod with higher mult gives less PP. It's just have no sence.

The fun thing is that you said that Im the one who dosen't know about FL, and im the ignorant of FL, and you can't even FC a 4.21 star map. Even if you play with FL, the 4.21 star map (that you don't) you still don't know anything about the world of FL that's it's a lot harder when the large jumps start to appear in the maps (5.4 stars and above) wich is when FL becomes really hard. Myself can't even try this things becouse I get fucked. And you remark that I don't play FL, when i addmit this, why you should bring it back? I said this (and don't quote becouse the system to quote is shit and im tired of it) "You are right, I have less to none FL plays, the only good FL play that I have it's a pokemon map "https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1412291" FC 2x100 99.33 with easy mod, just becouse I found it fun to FC with FL and Easy so i canno't talk very much about FL plays, but i think i have exp enough to backup mi quotes and also I just made that play becouse i found FL and EZ the hardest mods. But when I said that FL was easy, it's just in some way, I mean this becouse it's really diff to balance the mod in the game. " I even state than i found FL and EZ the hardest mods, and later I explain why I wanted to eliminate it, but now i don't, I encourege you to read my comment before anwser it lol. And for leave this clear, you are the one who started with the personal attack, let's just leave it there, shall we? If you may, just talk about the actual hipocresy of FL and HR please, i will make another post to disccuse this, another day if im borred, and I will give you a link if you want to talk with me in that post. Thanks for you replay, at least I get some fun out of anwser you, since you are the only one who anwser me.
posted

Darkan996 wrote:

...
Anything on the second to last paragraph?

abraker wrote:

So does this mean FL is overated? Yes and no. You should know that difficulty calculation is fucked as hell and very inaccurate at times. More so that star rating doesn't consider FL. Flat multiplier also doesn't do justice when you consider repetitive/technical map, which may need less effort to memorize than a more chaotic map with same star rating. I am always an advocate in abolishing the flat multipliers, but before that can be done, difficulty calc needs to get its shit together.
The whole reason we are having this argument in the first place is how out of wack scoring and difficulty calc is. I would start by fixing those, and you do that by examining how hard it is memorize a map- How many retries it will take would be difficulty. And compare that to how many retries a new player will need to memorize how to move finger and hand to aim and tap notes as basic skills needed for osu!. Compare that to how long it takes for a player to become efficient enough to do higher AR. And compare that to how long it will take for a player to lean how to FL a multi-hour map.
posted

abraker wrote:

The whole reason we are having this argument in the first place is how out of wack scoring and difficulty calc is. I would start by fixing those, and you do that by examining how hard it is memorize a map- How many retries it will take would be difficulty. And compare that to how many retries a new player will need to memorize how to move finger and hand to aim and tap notes as basic skills needed for osu!. Compare that to how long it takes for a player to become efficient enough to do higher AR. And compare that to how long it will take for a player to lean how to FL a multi-hour map.
Thats a cool idea.
posted
Why complain about FL and not HD, though.
posted

Rayne wrote:

Why complain about FL and not HD, though.
Im complaing about FL and HR hipocresy, not if HR, HD or FL are over or lowerated.
posted
A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
posted

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
posted

Paper wrote:

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
posted

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
posted

Sundae wrote:

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
posted
u should take a look at scorev2 multipliers - the fl nerf u wanted is already planned! i believe under scorev2 fl only would give much less score than DT or HDHR, also HDFL would no longer be able to beat HDDT (i had a screenshot of all exact mod values but i can't find it)

as for the specifics, i don't think u should be talking about the exact numbers of multipliers or pp when you're an only-nomod player. please get a first place rank on a map and hold it for at least a week, because until then you wouldn't be able to appreciate the true difficulty of fl.

this is a nice post and you have an interesting idea - some aspects of which i can agree with - but sadly i don't think it's worth such a long post when you don't have much experience with what you're talking about
posted
posted
Yes I definitely think 1 trick pony hddt scores should beat hdhrfl scores where people actually put effort into the score 8-)
posted

Darkan996 wrote:

I will make another post on how to kinda fix FL problem, I have think about it and the best option it's just delete it from the game, it's has a lot of controvensyal involved if you think heavely arround it.
u should consider with another mode

In Mania..

I need FL for reducing heavy notes appeared..
This mod help me to not panic when facing massive notes..

i think...
feature request means add new features. Not delete old features.
posted

edgerrdz wrote:

How do you post this and shoot 5 stars to this request? I don't get it.

CoffeeLatte- wrote:

u should consider with another mode

In Mania..

I need FL for reducing heavy notes appeared..
I'd like to think anything OP wants to do with FL would be specific to standard and not other gamemodes. If not, this is gonna burst into flames and be nuked even faster
posted

abraker wrote:

I'd like to think anything OP wants to do with FL would be specific to standard and not other gamemodes. If not, this is gonna burst into flames and be nuked even faster
i shitposting like the others do Im just replied his specific sentences and not agree with delete FL mod.
There are still have another ways rather than delete it from the game.
posted

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
Im not complaining about FL, not in this post at least. It's was just a comment with no arguments to argue in the hole other coment, i say why i think that should be eliminate it and a lot of stuff but i bet you and any other who paste this don't read the other coments. In that I explain miself, but the point of the comment wasnt complaing about FL, that's why don't have arguments supporting that. Idk that complaning about FL will make a lot of peaple salty LOL.

Dagresha wrote:

u should take a look at scorev2 multipliers - the fl nerf u wanted is already planned! i believe under scorev2 fl only would give much less score than DT or HDHR, also HDFL would no longer be able to beat HDDT (i had a screenshot of all exact mod values but i can't find it)

as for the specifics, i don't think u should be talking about the exact numbers of multipliers or pp when you're an only-nomod player. please get a first place rank on a map and hold it for at least a week, because until then you wouldn't be able to appreciate the true difficulty of fl.

this is a nice post and you have an interesting idea - some aspects of which i can agree with - but sadly i don't think it's worth such a long post when you don't have much experience with what you're talking about
Oh that's nice, idk that about scorev2. I really don't need to have much exp to say playing FL to say that the multp are wrong. I mean, or you make FL give more PP or you make HR give less or you change the multp it's not about playing or not the mod, it's just logic. I just expresed one form to do it, but you can fix this making FL give more PP than HR, becouse it's should, taking acount FL has a higher mulpt.

Jatie wrote:

Yes I definitely think 1 trick pony hddt scores should beat hdhrfl scores where people actually put effort into the score 8-)
This is probably sarcasm. So.. i don't say that in my post, HRHDFL plays will beat HDDT, check the mulpt that I suggest.

CoffeeLatte- wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

I will make another post on how to kinda fix FL problem, I have think about it and the best option it's just delete it from the game, it's has a lot of controvensyal involved if you think heavely arround it.
u should consider with another mode

In Mania..

I need FL for reducing heavy notes appeared..
This mod help me to not panic when facing massive notes..

i think...
feature request means add new features. Not delete old features.
I was thinking only in Osu! standar, since that's why I play only, but I will take this into account now, thanks.
posted
Before I am going to ask if you're actually capable to understand the mods you put in critic, I'd suggest to put this stuff in Gameplay & Rankings in future. Yes, this is a thread about changing mods' calculation but this is by far more sensitive than changing the behaviour of a feature or to optimize utilities in the client.

Since this thread reads like something you usually find in the G&R forums it'd also be good involve people in this discussion who has experience with said mods. And by all honesty, I don't think you can provide enough experience to carry the complaint towards Flashlight mod.
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