Myxomatosis wrote:

CDFA wrote:

For instance, would THIS be considered innapropriate?: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/150639 . From what I've asked some other BNs, they've said it's fine, even though it has a few curses and implications of sexual activity.

did you really misspell "Kanye West" i think songs like these should be fine. it's what i mentioned before, the curses are just a stylistic tool and nobody really takes this seriously. also shit like this is on the radio and on tv anyway so what do we expect

well if you want to get super technical, American radio edits will blur out any curse words or slurs that are used. So it's important to also make that distinction, are we allowing SOME curse words, or are we just censoring EVERYTHING (which, seeing as we can still curse on the forum and in-game, I think we're more inclined to go with the first)

Nitrous wrote:

There are concerned people, specially those that are of parental age (and believe me there are those who still play this game). Its unethical to let an adolescent listen to obscene language, they might blame this game because of such things. My suggestion would be to add by just further emphasizing warnings (map descriptions are often ignored) such as adding +18 or nsfw tags and filter them out in beatmap searching would be better.

I actually made a suggestion to have an in-game notation of NSFW stuff put in place before, or having the ability to filter maps that are marked as NSFW. peppy, in the way that he sometimes does when he doesn't wanna do stuff, was like "okay get me a list and I'll do it." So me and some other guys provided a list to him. And he's like "a"

However at this point I feel that making a guideline on the actual ranking criteria would be more effective than putting on a tag AFTER the fact.

So we need to fucking talk about this.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/716630

Apparently this shit is a fine pass even though we just spend all of this fucking time talking about "oh yeah content rules oh yeah we gotta be safe for the kids" like are you fucking serious.

This is a huge fuck you to me as well as others in the community who have been screwed over by these sorts of rules as well as these vague guidelines as to what is appropriate and inappropriate.

I'd very much like to see the QAT justify this being allowed to get a fair pass while maps that I've submitted put me on the verge of getting banned from the game.

THIS is why I decide to put so much god damned effort into this kind of shit. THIS kind of shit, so that I don't have to constantly hope "oh god is this QAT going to hate my map or will they love it", it'll be a simple "this is what makes your map unrankable." This subjective "oh we'll decide on it" shit didn't work when Loctav was around, and it's obvious that it's not working now.

So let's see this get justified.

There's already a loved version from more than a year ago https://osu.ppy.sh/s/288162

Don't forget https://osu.ppy.sh/s/328597.

EDIT: Also, does it matter less if the songs aren't in English? Pensamento and Chuj Kurwa are fairly explicit but nobody seems to even bring them up in conversations like these, even though they are popular.

I think we've regressed rather significantly on the rules surrounding this particular thing.

It is indeed, an established community rule that any content involved with the game should be appropriate for 'all-ages' - that particular term has been peddled around with pretty much universal usage in the past few years as some sort of catchall for all this stuff.

However, I think there is some artistic merit in allowing songs or tracks with explicit material and content (within reason, however) to be submitted and ranked as per other beatmaps, except with some sort of designation made abundantly obvious in their description or listing somehow.

Heavily explicit tracks or songs that deal intensely and intimately with themes that just simply are not appropriate for osu! (such as heavy drug use, suicide, murder, etc) will never fly, but I am not against amending the rules regarding beatmap submission to allow maps with explicit audio content to be considered for ranking.

An exclusion on a case-by-case basis to allow beatmap submission for tracks deemed to be explicit but not excessively so with a designator (18+ or a content warning in the description, as how it used to work) would be the most elegant solution to this issue, I think. The question of "who determines what is too explicit" or not is a big one, as people apparently have very different attitudes in this regard.

MTC is okay, though should arguably be tagged. Most XXXTentacion tracks are probably not okay even when tagged. Most, not all.

Do note, this is just my personal opinion on the matter. I've always been one of the more lax members of the team when it comes towards content policing.

Idk if you consider xxxtentacion to be artistically merited enough but I can really relate to some of his less vulgar songs so I think they should be kept

Tired of feelin' like I'm trapped in my damn mind
Tired of feelin' like I'm wrapped in a damn lie
Tired of feelin' like my life is a damn game
Nigga really wanna die in the nighttime

https://genius.com/Xxxtentacion-everybo ... res-lyrics

On the one hand maps with explicit lyrics and very questionable backgrounds are going ranked and on the other people are getting restricted for mapping what they like. Why don't you just implement big-red-button that warn people about song containing some 18+ content?

First and foremost, I want to note that I'm not by any mean "someone", barely knows any mapper and have the perspective of mostly being a player.

So yeah, I don't really understand how "we've regressed". 1 year ago, rules were supposed to be revamped in order to be clearer, due to the whole El Chivi's song being almost ranked and having extreme profanity in it. They never were. (and the map is still graveyarded, so downloadable)

I have countless examples of maps dealing "intensely" with non-appropriate themes that you quoted being ranked, at any point of time ranging from 2009 to 2017. So I don't see how we could have "regressed", when there never were any rules available for the public to begin with.

Such a subject cannot be enforced or anything, it is too vague, too abstract. There is no one that is fit to discuss which music has "artistic merit" or not. There is too much hurdles preventing that.

For instance, there is the fact that if you want to pinpoint which song is unsafe for 'all-ages', you would need a polyglot or a team of people speaking every single language, as the distinction between being on the grey area and explicitely being violent cannot be caught using a translator (problem of context for each word, for the general song, etc. there are parody songs ranked that are clearly parodical for people speaking the language, non-offensive for people that cannot speak it, but someone learning the language could be confused and think that it's clearly offensive). On the other hand, it is not impossible to write an offensive song without any curse for and with implied stuff, that could be caught only by fluent speakers.

Then, the number of "Pending" or "Graveyarded" maps is too high, nobody can listen to every single one to decide if the song is or isn't offensive. Even the most notorious artists when it comes to being extremely crude and/or violent have done some pretty chill songs, and someone gave you an example on reddit IIRC. And I say that as someone who hates this artist, from the bottom of my heart.

Such hurdles are impossible to overcome, and it's why, IMO, I think that this whole topic is bogus. When it comes to unranked maps, nobody should be silenced, restricted, or even have their maps removed for being in the grey area, as far as the "grey area" can stretch, because under no system it could be fair for all users.

The number of maps passing through the ranked section, however, is drastically lower, and the debate should be up when a bubble or some sort of intense exposure is made (and not before, and not after, as it happened in the past). But even then, a map is bound to slip by at any moment, and it's not really severe, because if the common sense decided that the song weren't offensive enough to trigger a backlash, then it's fine, because it is not likely to shock most users. The number of unranked map is so high, you won't find haphazardly an offensive song.

TL;DR : let people submit whatever they want if it's in the grey area, if the map don't use, and I quote SharpII "excessive profanity/terroristic propaganda/illegal content/screamers". When the map is heading for ranked, then it would be possible to decline the map from there as

If we add in rules and whatnot for this to keep things all-ages, what do we do with maps that don't follow these rules that are already ranked? Do we just unrank them and banish them to the abyss? Some of the "damage" if we want to call it that is already done so the game couldn't really turn completely all ages unless the rules apply retroactively and all uploaded rulebreaking maps are removed.

So yeah, I dunno, it sounds more realistic to use a filtering system where more mature language stuff is hidden until you explicitly allow it to be viewed in some way. And at least imo it kind of comes down to parents parenting whether a kid hear things they shouldn't if you have proper filtering/safeguards for it I guess.

Also it's old, but there's this song: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/7705 which translates to like "the fucking song" and is made up off a bunch of moaning lol.

an nsfw toggle and a big red warning saying babies are not welcome would solve all of these problems

It may sound so crazy but... what about just the use of "+18" and [MATURE CONTENT] right to the title of the map ?

Master_chan wrote:

Why don't you just implement big-red-button that warn people about song containing some 18+ content?

This

why are we trying to make osu super sfw and child friendly all of a sudden when there's borderline hentai backgrounds and many pretty messed up songs already ranked for years

now i'm not saying to allow porn or stuff like that but honestly excessive lyrics are completely fine to me and should be allowed unless they're EXTREMELY (and i mean EXTREMELY) offensive/bad

a filter would probably be a pretty good idea, but filtering out already ranked stuff might take a super long time

CDFA wrote:

So we need to fucking talk about this.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/716630

Apparently this shit is a fine pass even though we just spend all of this fucking time talking about "oh yeah content rules oh yeah we gotta be safe for the kids" like are you fucking serious.

This is a huge fuck you to me as well as others in the community who have been screwed over by these sorts of rules as well as these vague guidelines as to what is appropriate and inappropriate.

I'd very much like to see the QAT justify this being allowed to get a fair pass while maps that I've submitted put me on the verge of getting banned from the game.

THIS is why I decide to put so much god damned effort into this kind of shit. THIS kind of shit, so that I don't have to constantly hope "oh god is this QAT going to hate my map or will they love it", it'll be a simple "this is what makes your map unrankable." This subjective "oh we'll decide on it" shit didn't work when Loctav was around, and it's obvious that it's not working now.

So let's see this get justified.

I went to the featured artist listing and took a song off of it and mapped it.

Okoratu wrote:

I went to the featured artist listing and took a song off of it and mapped it.

Its all about gray zones in the rules and double-standards regarding featured artists, than your map specifically.

Today I've learned that jerking off to anime titties falls into a "grey area" and is a content appropriate for a game that "tries to be all ages"

Like, I'm sure everyone knows, I'm a big fan of explicit content. I've been advocating for an 18+ channel for a while or at least some sort of place where I don't have to censor myself so much, but MAN does it suck that people are hopping around this so much because they want to sort of bend the rules for one dude.

Like yeah it's from the featured artist list but like lmfao I don't think being a featured artist allows you a free pass from rules lmao like imagine if we could just do that shit with like, song length or something. They're featured artists but this is a game with rules, standards, and procedures to get things done.

You're literally equating this to being like "Yeah my school dance said I can use songs by Pharrell Williams so I'm gonna do Drop It Like It's Hot" like do you not see what I'm getting at lmao.

Man I KNOW I've been silenced in-game a lot for talking about jerking off to anime titties so if you're gonna sit here and tell me it's okay then then we need one of two things

1) We need SPECIFIC fucking rules about what is acceptable, completely unacceptable, and a grey area
2) We need to actually enforce the same rules on everyone.

Like man.

EDIT: I literally just got silenced for talking about this exact thing so???

It is a personal insult to me that this is considered fine. It's dystopian that nobody else sees any sort of fault with this and I'm personally contemplating over ways that we can fix this because I'm tired of dealing with these double standards and I'm tired of having the rules kept intentionally vague so they can be changed at a moments notice to fit the needs of whoever is deemed worthy to fit needs.

Alright. Let's give this a stab.

https://gist.github.com/Ephemeralis/b253dedf2fd87bbb6c154e483d449f2a

Super rough, but that's what I'd impose if it was up to me. Should cover enough room for artistic license while still encouraging people to map things that aren't explicit.

Some things will just never fly, for what it's worth. Artistic license or none.

I like this, primarily the part about having a PM sent by the staff or GMT. Especially in maps that are really on the edge, it's helpful to get feedback on "here is exactly why this isn't okay" as well as having some sort of hard rule that sort of allows for some implications or profanity to exist without automatically nuking a map.

A sort of dirtier version of this in my head would probably say to focus this on "The song's core content cannot be about sexually explicit material but the occasional reference may be fine", although it's worded pretty shittily, lol.

But so far I'm really happy that there's a step in the right direction. I'd still propose that the thing I posted be put into the Ranking Criteria for consistency sake, but maybe have this FAQ linked in the criteria or just have it publicly available somewhere so people can have it as reference.

That should be covered under the 'intensely' clause. Some sexual explicitness is okay, a la reference or whatever, but if it is excessive or intensely explicit, it doesn't fly.

I mean, we have maps ranked like I'd Like To Teach The World To Fap which is pretty much just campy comedy nonsense. MTC is much the same in that regard. Light-hearted or otherwise innocuous reference shouldn't be a problem, it only really concerns me personally when it is very explicit and very intense or graphic.

Ok so for once I'm not gonna be dropping one liners about all of this because I seem to be in the center of some witchhunting project someone somehow initiated or something surrounding me mapping MTC - Yes, the song is about masturbating to cartoons, that's literally what the title reads and the song is about (which, for some bizarre reason isn't allowed to be tagged but that's a different cup of tea).

As long as music remains at the point where it's a song with some topic which isn't just made to be inappropriate entirely (sth sth Infant Annihalator song about violating stillborns) at the very least I can live with it - if others can is up to them, they play that sort of stuff on the radio here without age restrictions as well (at least i don't know of any such restrictions when turning on my radio)

I find all this leeway stuff to be confusing - if you do it once and your map is removed, then due to the nature of this rule you shouldnt be punished, if you do it again without asking any GMT then you for sure should be hit with a stick, ranking a map inbetween shouldn't restore anything whatsoever since the user should be assumed to know that they should ask if their uploads are ok if they have the slightest ways of doubts.

At least there should be something about asking GMT or QAT before uploading if your upload would violate the rule if you aren't sure (i have no idea why people wouldnt do that). I think this should be mentioned

The 20% rule of thumb stuff is ok, just not my cup of tea because clarifying what is and isnt alluding to sexual references how much isn't a black and white matter so it just generates a lot of cases where people will stick to this and be like ITS NOT 20% .... i think

Part of the issue is that osu is a global community and morals/standards vary across cultures. For example, in the US drinking laws are strictly enforced, while in Europe they take a much lax attitude. The sort of opposite is true when it comes to movies, violence, and nudity: in my view American movies are often violent, while European movies are much more comfortable with nudity. Even within the US, some states have legalized non-medical use of cannabis, while other states have it prohibited for any use (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_ ... risdiction).

I would prefer it if the guidelines were updated to include mentions of drug use: while I think occasional references are allowed ("We're higher than a motherfucker" and "Have a drink, clink, found the bud light" in Starships) I wonder where the line is drawn. Would Lil Pump - Molly be allowed? What about Designer?

Okoratu wrote:

Ok so for once I'm not gonna be dropping one liners about all of this because I seem to be in the center of some witchhunting project someone somehow initiated or something surrounding me mapping MTC - Yes, the song is about masturbating to cartoons, that's literally what the title reads and the song is about (which, for some bizarre reason isn't allowed to be tagged but that's a different cup of tea).

As long as music remains at the point where it's a song with some topic which isn't just made to be inappropriate entirely (sth sth Infant Annihalator song about violating stillborns) at the very least I can live with it - if others can is up to them, they play that sort of stuff on the radio here without age restrictions as well (at least i don't know of any such restrictions when turning on my radio)

I find all this leeway stuff to be confusing - if you do it once and your map is removed, then due to the nature of this rule you shouldnt be punished, if you do it again without asking any GMT then you for sure should be hit with a stick, ranking a map inbetween shouldn't restore anything whatsoever since the user should be assumed to know that they should ask if their uploads are ok if they have the slightest ways of doubts.

At least there should be something about asking GMT or QAT before uploading if your upload would violate the rule if you aren't sure (i have no idea why people wouldnt do that). I think this should be mentioned

The 20% rule of thumb stuff is ok, just not my cup of tea because clarifying what is and isnt alluding to sexual references how much isn't a black and white matter so it just generates a lot of cases where people will stick to this and be like ITS NOT 20% .... i think

Can you not act like a victim for 20 fucking seconds lmfao.

This isn't a witch hunt against YOU in particular, this isn't some sort of personal crusade, it's trying to enforce standards that have been enforced upon the community. When something exists that does NOT follow those standards, but is approved anyway, it NEEDS to be discussed.

This is how a professional setting fucking works, I do not give 2 shits that you mapped it, it could have been anyone. I think you being QAT has allowed it to sort of get through the weeds easier, but that's a separate issue in its entirety. Literally anyone could have mapped it and I would still bring this up.

Most importantly, I made this thread before your map got Qualified. The qualification of your map only made it more clear that the rules that we have do NOT accurately show what the game considers acceptable.

Please stop making it about yourself because it's not. Leave your ego at the door and understand that this discussion is about the game as a whole having a consistent and fair ruling regarding this topic.

It should apply to Loved section aswell, cause meanwhile, there is a map on a song in french that talks about drug, sex, and mocking about asian people in Loved section. This is just one case, but I'm sure there is (and will be) more maps like this one.

Stop pretending that having this kind of rules are going to keep our kids away of mature content, in fact, during the age of 12~15 we have consume the most NSFW content in our entire lives. This kind of rules just make no sense at all.

I like sex and drugs.

If the song isn't English it can apparently be as inappropriate as you want since nobody actually checks for that kind of thing. One of the most popular maps of all time has extremely explicit lyrics (pensamento) but nobody cares lol. (Not that I'm saying to remove it or anything)

My main problem is that what's considered explicit is so subjective. I asked a bunch of QATs about a Japanese song with questionable lyrics and most of the answers I got were essentially "idk". So as to not risk some random GMT not liking it I never uploaded the map. I know it's hard to make concrete rules but anything would be better than the vague mess we currently have

so since discussion died down do we get this over with with the suggested adjustments?

man if only there was a QAT that could do that

hell fucking yeah

thread moved because finalized amendment