I know some players who absolutely cannot play without HD. What a dilemma we have here.
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Hidden should not give any extra pp
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i find hidden to make it harder 
i used to play a lot with hidden, but lately i've started seeing it as a hindrance, especially to my acc, which often turns from something like 90% with hd to 98% without hd. to each his own. all in all i might agree that it's a tad overweighted, but it should definitely give extra pp imho, just not that much. currently it's about +10% i'd say. i think +~5% would be enough.
i used to play a lot with hidden, but lately i've started seeing it as a hindrance, especially to my acc, which often turns from something like 90% with hd to 98% without hd. to each his own. all in all i might agree that it's a tad overweighted, but it should definitely give extra pp imho, just not that much. currently it's about +10% i'd say. i think +~5% would be enough.I play a lot HD and i find easier than no mod, i can't pass 4,5*+ maps with nomod and i get à better acc with hd but streams (mostly Spacey) are really hard to do
pls enjoy game. play for music, rhythm or fun not for imaginary num bers
Personally, I can more or less use hidden interchangeably on most maps, except for spaced streams and bursts. That's the only scenario where playing nomod actually helps me.
But the thing is, soo many people don't play hidden. Then it's not as easy for them as it is for me, isn't it? That doesn't make it overweighted if people can't play it. It's only easy for the people that can actually play it. But you're right that hidden should give less pp for higher AR, that makes perfect sense. Most people would play hidden with double time and hidden with hard rock but not alone on AR9 stuff
But the thing is, soo many people don't play hidden. Then it's not as easy for them as it is for me, isn't it? That doesn't make it overweighted if people can't play it. It's only easy for the people that can actually play it. But you're right that hidden should give less pp for higher AR, that makes perfect sense. Most people would play hidden with double time and hidden with hard rock but not alone on AR9 stuff
HD is not that easy, as you can see on more harder maps: they have more nomod plays than HD plays
So, where's the problem? Are you mad, because you have to play with HD to get more pp? Oh, but you don't like it. And that's the only reason you think it shouldn't give pp. That's your only argument.
Because "it doesn't increase the difficulty" is a bullshit statement.
How about playing Ice Angel with HD and without HD. Try that. How blindfolded are you? Not just Ice Angel. It's definitely more than 1% of maps being harder with HD. Take any longer streams that are not so easy to follow, for example on SANTA SAN [X-Mas], and you'll find people failing at streams with HD, but doing them no-problem no-mod. Or even any DragonForce maps. Do you fucking see, that HD makes these more difficult? Oh, you have a shitty DT jump TV-size play as your best play. And even worse, a 30 second map as your second-best play. Hahaha!
Your post is pure bullshit. Make your way toat least 5k pp streaming streams longer than 9 notes and you may have the privilege to talk about this. And why are you even talking about AR greater than 9? You're at 3k pp. Don't make such a joke out of yourself.
Because "it doesn't increase the difficulty" is a bullshit statement.
How about playing Ice Angel with HD and without HD. Try that. How blindfolded are you? Not just Ice Angel. It's definitely more than 1% of maps being harder with HD. Take any longer streams that are not so easy to follow, for example on SANTA SAN [X-Mas], and you'll find people failing at streams with HD, but doing them no-problem no-mod. Or even any DragonForce maps. Do you fucking see, that HD makes these more difficult? Oh, you have a shitty DT jump TV-size play as your best play. And even worse, a 30 second map as your second-best play. Hahaha!
Your post is pure bullshit. Make your way to
E m i
for the map having 300 more notes? cuz if you remove the stream the map still is od10Skeletroll wrote:
You actually do get extra pp for od10Momiji wrote:
I can SS od10 270bpm 300 note streams but i get no extra pp for it, why/!?!!?!
Because the map stays 6.4 stars
or for doing something no one ever did in this game?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmg9iv8PZlE&t=2m50s
Wow, imagine an od10 300 note 270bpm stream ss. It would be a supreme 400pp play? Maybe someone will do it by 2025
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i fc 176.25bpm 10417 note stream does this make mine argument valid?Houtarou Oreki wrote:
streaming streams longer than 9 notes and you may have the privilege to talk about this.
The reason why hd POTENTIALLY SHOULD have its pp bonus removed is because of both instances where the pp bonus is too small, and where it is too big. The difficulty increase is there but it's neither solid nor easily quantifiable, and the 2% acc and 18% aim bonus will remain retarded even in cases where the overall pp is just what it should be.
Whenever I see people speaking that HD should not give extra pp, I cringe, facepalm and search for a rope to kill myself faster than this cancer touch my sanity.
E m i
Momiji wrote:
Houtarou Oreki wrote:
streaming streams longer than 9 notes and you may have the privilege to talk about this.
i fc 176.25bpm 10417 note stream does this make mine argument valid?
You don't say HD doesn't change ANYTHING in difficulty if you have enough experience is what I was trying to say. Trying, because I apparently I failed to do it. Or you're just playing stupid.
Momiji wrote:
The reason why hd POTENTIALLY SHOULD have its pp bonus removed is because of both instances where the pp bonus is too small, and where it is too big. The difficulty increase is there but it's neither solid nor easily quantifiable, and the 2% acc and 18% aim bonus will remain retarded even in cases where the overall pp is just what it should be.
Just in case you were partly replying to me (you probably weren't):
I don't personally care about pp bonus from HD. I would neither support or be against removing HD pp bonus, because I don't really care. If it is available - I take it. If it won't be - I won't take it. It's just that I couldn't stop myself from showing him how much BS his post is, and it's the only thing my reply is for.
Double posts means double +1
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Houtarou Oreki wrote:
You don't say HD doesn't change ANYTHING in difficulty if you have enough experience is what I was trying to say. Trying, because I apparently I failed to do it. Or you're just playing stupid.
Well yeah that's the case with every possible/imaginable thing ever. You don't unless you do, you aren't unless you are, etc.
And he wouldn't say it unless he would say it. So it's your own mistake (and of several people in this thread) to say random things like "get 5k pp", "9 note stream", and "you try it then", as opposed to actually targetting his argument.
And get this, the funniest thing is I don't even agree with him! Keeping the HD bonus as it is, removing the HD bonus, both are retarded
Houtarou Oreki wrote:
(you probably weren't)
lol it's ok but i'm a bit scared
Houtarou Oreki wrote:
It's just that I couldn't stop myself from showing him how much BS his post is, and it's the only thing my reply is for.
so the reason why you didn't do it is because you were too lazy to actually target his argument? or what
Remove pp
Yep, I just admitted that right up there. Or I tried to... Uhh...Momiji wrote:
[...]it's your own mistake (and of several people in this thread) to say random things like "get 5k pp", "9 note stream", and "you try it then", as opposed to actually targetting his argument.Houtarou Oreki wrote:
[...]Trying, because I apparently I failed to do it.[...]
I didn't do... what exactly? Okay, either you failed to convey what you were just trying to say or I have no brain - may you be a bit more precise? I thought telling someone their argument is trash was a child's play. Or, well, hey, I probably just suck at doing it. Signing away, because tomorrow's a schoolday. Looking forward to reading your response on Thursday.Momiji wrote:
so the reason why you didn't do it is because you were too lazy to actually target his argument? or whatHoutarou Oreki wrote:
It's just that I couldn't stop myself from showing him how much BS his post is, and it's the only thing my reply is for.
The thing is that people that prefer HD over nomod have certain reasons to do so: One of the major reasons is removal of clutter.
But then again, a lot of the anti-clutter benefits you get from HD are also achievable through skinning (e.g. skinning your approachcircles away).
Even dedicated HD players (personally I know this guy https://osu.ppy.sh/u/2747072 as an example) will usually prefer nomod on maps that are difficult to read as HD does indeed make maps harder to read although it is usually a very minor factor on maps that are suited to farm pp - straightforward rhythm and close to no reading difficulty are the major traits of any map suited for farm after all.
I think a bonus is definitely justified - it is reasonable to say that the bonus through HD is far too high on some maps and far too low on others but that is a problem with vision mods in general (let's not start with FL, shall we?). Saying they're not more difficult but mere preference is definitely missing the point though. Even on farm maps, getting an equal performance with HD is an ability that has to be gained through practice.
But then again, a lot of the anti-clutter benefits you get from HD are also achievable through skinning (e.g. skinning your approachcircles away).
Even dedicated HD players (personally I know this guy https://osu.ppy.sh/u/2747072 as an example) will usually prefer nomod on maps that are difficult to read as HD does indeed make maps harder to read although it is usually a very minor factor on maps that are suited to farm pp - straightforward rhythm and close to no reading difficulty are the major traits of any map suited for farm after all.
I think a bonus is definitely justified - it is reasonable to say that the bonus through HD is far too high on some maps and far too low on others but that is a problem with vision mods in general (let's not start with FL, shall we?). Saying they're not more difficult but mere preference is definitely missing the point though. Even on farm maps, getting an equal performance with HD is an ability that has to be gained through practice.
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didn't show him that his post is bs because all you did was target his pp instead of his point lolHoutarou Oreki wrote:
I didn't do... what exactly? Okay, either you failed to convey what you were just trying to say or I have no brain - may you be a bit more precise? I thought telling someone their argument is trash was a child's play. Or, well, hey, I probably just suck at doing it. Signing away, because tomorrow's a schoolday. Looking forward to reading your response on Thursday.
school sucks good luck
L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:
N0thingSpecial wrote:
Remove pp
E m i
i already got op to admit he's just jealous, thread should be closed tbhHoutarou Oreki wrote:
So, where's the problem? Are you mad, because you have to play with HD to get more pp? Oh, but you don't like it. And that's the only reason you think it shouldn't give pp. That's your only argument.
Because "it doesn't increase the difficulty" is a bullshit statement.
Your post is pure bullshit. Make your way toop's pp shouldn't have any bearing on how bullshit he is or isn't. bullshit is bullshitat least 5k ppstreaming streams longer than 9 notes and you may have the privilege to talk about this. And why are you even talking about AR greater than 9? You're at 3k pp. Don't make such a joke out of yourself.
E m i
I'm also jelly that the best aim players in the game get 700-800pp for their specialty, best aim scores in the game, and best speed/acc players get 300-450pp for their specialty, best acc/speed scores in the game 
I guess me being jealous makes it okay that being #1-10 in speed equates to the pp of being #2000-6000 in aim.
I guess me being jealous makes it okay that being #1-10 in speed equates to the pp of being #2000-6000 in aim.
E m i
The actual problem for acc players is that you'll eventually get locked to OD10 with no way to increase your pp gain because you can't move up to a higher difficulty of accuracy, while aim players benefit from faster jumps, more spaced jumps, and the potential pp-gain of higher CS-values.
Aim players can just move to a more spaced / faster / more jumps map while acc players can't go above OD10.
Imo they should just make CS, AR, and OD customizable by the player and unlock higher ODs without being forced to play HR / DT.
You can't play OD11 without using DT, which also increases the speed of the song. You can't play OD10 on some maps without HR, which also forces you to deal with smaller circles and a AR you might not find fun to play.
.
The modsystem imo is flawed. Just introduce a slider or smthn (like in the editor) where you can select your own preferences CS, AR, OD, offset yadayada and give a +X% score increase for each point exceeding the original values of the map. (Exception being AR)
Also unlock higher values for OD/AR so acc players can go and play OD12 or smthn so they actually have a chance of competing with aim-players. There is only so much pp you can gain with OD10 right now, while aim-pp almost has no limit because almost everything correlates with it. (speed, spacing, cs, longer jump sections)
Aim players can just move to a more spaced / faster / more jumps map while acc players can't go above OD10.
Imo they should just make CS, AR, and OD customizable by the player and unlock higher ODs without being forced to play HR / DT.
You can't play OD11 without using DT, which also increases the speed of the song. You can't play OD10 on some maps without HR, which also forces you to deal with smaller circles and a AR you might not find fun to play.
.
The modsystem imo is flawed. Just introduce a slider or smthn (like in the editor) where you can select your own preferences CS, AR, OD, offset yadayada and give a +X% score increase for each point exceeding the original values of the map. (Exception being AR)
Also unlock higher values for OD/AR so acc players can go and play OD12 or smthn so they actually have a chance of competing with aim-players. There is only so much pp you can gain with OD10 right now, while aim-pp almost has no limit because almost everything correlates with it. (speed, spacing, cs, longer jump sections)
I've actually been thinking about this for a long time. Would make it so much more convenient to practice maps with an adjustable speed slider.Rayne wrote:
Imo they should just make CS, AR, and OD customizable by the player and unlock higher ODs without being forced to play HR / DT.
You can't play OD11 without using DT, which also increases the speed of the song. You can't play OD10 on some maps without HR, which also forces you to deal with smaller circles and a AR you might not find fun to play.
The modsystem imo is flawed. Just introduce a slider or smthn (like in the editor) where you can select your own preferences CS, AR, OD, offset yadayada and give a +X% score increase for each point exceeding the original values of the map. (Exception being AR)
I would really love to be able to play OD10 without guaranteed AR10 CS5.2+.Rayne wrote:
The actual problem for acc players is that you'll eventually get locked to OD10 with no way to increase your pp gain because you can't move up to a higher difficulty of accuracy, while aim players benefit from faster jumps, more spaced jumps, and the potential pp-gain of higher CS-values.
Aim players can just move to a more spaced / faster / more jumps map while acc players can't go above OD10.
Imo they should just make CS, AR, and OD customizable by the player and unlock higher ODs without being forced to play HR / DT.
You can't play OD11 without using DT, which also increases the speed of the song. You can't play OD10 on some maps without HR, which also forces you to deal with smaller circles and a AR you might not find fun to play.
.
The modsystem imo is flawed. Just introduce a slider or smthn (like in the editor) where you can select your own preferences CS, AR, OD, offset yadayada and give a +X% score increase for each point exceeding the original values of the map. (Exception being AR)
Also unlock higher values for OD/AR so acc players can go and play OD12 or smthn so they actually have a chance of competing with aim-players. There is only so much pp you can gain with OD10 right now, while aim-pp almost has no limit because almost everything correlates with it. (speed, spacing, cs, longer jump sections)
E m i
join me on the cs3.5 ar9.8 od10.4 crusadeEmersyne wrote:
I would really love to be able to play OD10 without guaranteed AR10 CS5.2+.Rayne wrote:
The actual problem for acc players is that you'll eventually get locked to OD10 with no way to increase your pp gain because you can't move up to a higher difficulty of accuracy, while aim players benefit from faster jumps, more spaced jumps, and the potential pp-gain of higher CS-values.
Aim players can just move to a more spaced / faster / more jumps map while acc players can't go above OD10.
Imo they should just make CS, AR, and OD customizable by the player and unlock higher ODs without being forced to play HR / DT.
You can't play OD11 without using DT, which also increases the speed of the song. You can't play OD10 on some maps without HR, which also forces you to deal with smaller circles and a AR you might not find fun to play.
.
The modsystem imo is flawed. Just introduce a slider or smthn (like in the editor) where you can select your own preferences CS, AR, OD, offset yadayada and give a +X% score increase for each point exceeding the original values of the map. (Exception being AR)
Also unlock higher values for OD/AR so acc players can go and play OD12 or smthn so they actually have a chance of competing with aim-players. There is only so much pp you can gain with OD10 right now, while aim-pp almost has no limit because almost everything correlates with it. (speed, spacing, cs, longer jump sections)
especially since i fuckin can't ss od10 with 60 ur when everyone else does it with 75
nice consistencyfinally something i can agree withRayne wrote:
The actual problem for acc players is that you'll eventually get locked to OD10 with no way to increase your pp gain because you can't move up to a higher difficulty of accuracy, while aim players benefit from faster jumps, more spaced jumps, and the potential pp-gain of higher CS-values.
Aim players can just move to a more spaced / faster / more jumps map while acc players can't go above OD10.
Imo they should just make CS, AR, and OD customizable by the player and unlock higher ODs without being forced to play HR / DT.kind of sensible, but why not just give bonus PP for a low unstable rate instead of adjusting an OD slider?
You can't play OD11 without using DT, which also increases the speed of the song. You can't play OD10 on some maps without HR, which also forces you to deal with smaller circles and a AR you might not find fun to play.
.
The modsystem imo is flawed. Just introduce a slider or smthn (like in the editor) where you can select your own preferences CS, AR, OD, offset yadayada and give a +X% score increase for each point exceeding the original values of the map. (Exception being AR)want to know why AR is an exception
Also unlock higher values for OD/AR so acc players can go and play OD12 or smthn so they actually have a chance of competing with aim-players. There is only so much pp you can gain with OD10 right now, while aim-pp almost has no limit because almost everything correlates with it. (speed, spacing, cs, longer jump sections)
repr1se wrote:
finally something i can agree withRayne wrote:
The actual problem for acc players is that you'll eventually get locked to OD10 with no way to increase your pp gain because you can't move up to a higher difficulty of accuracy, while aim players benefit from faster jumps, more spaced jumps, and the potential pp-gain of higher CS-values.
Aim players can just move to a more spaced / faster / more jumps map while acc players can't go above OD10.Imo they should just make CS, AR, and OD customizable by the player and unlock higher ODs without being forced to play HR / DT.kind of sensible, but why not just give bonus PP for a low unstable rate instead of adjusting an OD slider?
You can't play OD11 without using DT, which also increases the speed of the song. You can't play OD10 on some maps without HR, which also forces you to deal with smaller circles and a AR you might not find fun to play.
.The modsystem imo is flawed. Just introduce a slider or smthn (like in the editor) where you can select your own preferences CS, AR, OD, offset yadayada and give a +X% score increase for each point exceeding the original values of the map. (Exception being AR)want to know why AR is an exception
Also unlock higher values for OD/AR so acc players can go and play OD12 or smthn so they actually have a chance of competing with aim-players. There is only so much pp you can gain with OD10 right now, while aim-pp almost has no limit because almost everything correlates with it. (speed, spacing, cs, longer jump sections)
Why no bonus for UR?
As Momiji said, low UR doesn't necessarily translate to higher acc. It's "just" the consistency of your tapping. You could 0UR and still get 100% 100s.
You could still reward it by binding it to accuracy values, but keep in mind that even some aim-related things aren't calculated either. There is nothing like "precision"-pp for how precisely you hit notes. It doesn't matter right now if you hit the center of a note or hit it at the very edge. This would even further reward (well, or hurt) aim.
Also, at some point you will have to have a certain UR to SS something like OD11-12 since the timeframe to hit a 300 on these kind of ODs is extremely tight, so in a way, low UR is already being rewarded if we were able to increase the OD even further.
AR is an exception because it's a matter of preference. Low AR means higher object density on equal BPM, higher AR decreases object density but lowers the time you have to react.
It's the same reason why I argue that HR is flawed. You can't really say that AR10 is harder than AR xyz because it's always just a trade-off, which is why I personally would like to see the AR component of HR gone or implement a system like mentioned above.
Players who are good at low AR are getting shafted right now since most 5*+ maps which usually reward most pp are AR9-10. The pp-system doesn't care about object density / reading, so low AR is more or less a useless skill. People who are competent at high AR / HR can just slap HR on old maps and perform better on HR because of the AR than they'd be if it was nomod.
However, there is no such option for low AR players except easy, which drastically increases density and lowers the OD and CS. Again, the mod-system is flawed in this regard. Mods affect CS, AR and OD all at once instead of giving us the option to change the values individually.
+1 osu coinsRayne wrote:
It's the same reason why I argue that HR is flawed. You can't really say that AR10 is harder than AR xyz because it's always just a trade-off, which is why I personally would like to see the AR component of HR gone or implement a system like mentioned above.
Players who are good at low AR are getting shafted right now since most 5*+ maps which usually reward most pp are AR9-10. The pp-system doesn't care about object density / reading, so low AR is more or less a useless skill. People who are competent at high AR / HR can just slap HR on old maps and perform better on HR because of the AR than they'd be if it was nomod.
However, there is no such option for low AR players except easy, which drastically increases density and lowers the OD and CS. Again, the mod-system is flawed in this regard. Mods affect CS, AR and OD all at once instead of giving us the option to change the values individually.
Topic Starter
Since this thread basically turned into a suggestion/pp balance thread I'm gonna suggest that shorter songs (especially 30 second ones) should be worth way less while longer songs should be worth more. I think the balance point (weighted the same as normal) should fall around 1:30 since that is the average length of a map.