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It is "elitism" to rub it in the faces of the fools who didn't pick you for OWC when clearly you're the best player in the country?
"Elitism" hardly exists like you say it does. 90% of the people complain about "elitism" are just complaining that their opinion isn't as held in high regard compared to people who have more comprehensive knowledge of the game. They aren't suffering from elitism, they are suffering from having an inferiority complex.
Railey's posts was a complaining that people who have extensive knowledge of mapping theory, such as mappers, were judging the merit of maps on a criteria other that a popularity contest. Because obviously sheer popularity isn't the best metric to judge something.
It is an argument, like his thread about PP maps, which is founded purely on moral indignation and has little logical substance, which can easily be rebutted.
"Elitism" hardly exists like you say it does. 90% of the people complain about "elitism" are just complaining that their opinion isn't as held in high regard compared to people who have more comprehensive knowledge of the game. They aren't suffering from elitism, they are suffering from having an inferiority complex.
Railey's posts was a complaining that people who have extensive knowledge of mapping theory, such as mappers, were judging the merit of maps on a criteria other that a popularity contest. Because obviously sheer popularity isn't the best metric to judge something.
It is an argument, like his thread about PP maps, which is founded purely on moral indignation and has little logical substance, which can easily be rebutted.
There is very little evidence to show that there is a significant trend of new players being ostracised or put down, besides from a few people in G&R which is hardly a significant portion of the community. osu! not primarily a multiplayer game, the atmosphere is fairly relaxed, and if you don't act like a dickhead generally you will get along fine, no matter your rank.
what does teamplay have to do with it, everyone is just individually playing their own thing in multiplayer...StuNiPid wrote:
No idea where you're getting this from. As a very active person within the community, the atmosphere is far from relaxed, there is a constant pressure from players and rankings that bears down on new players especially. On the topic of the filsdelama controversy, there is most likely a reason for him not being chosen, for example, toxicity could be a factor. This applies to any team game. For example, players that suffer from toxicity and elitism in the csgo community that retain extreme skills are often still not picked for teams due to the fact that their bad team play overshadows their individual skill. The same applies to the osu! community.B1rd wrote:
There is very little evidence to show that there is a significant trend of new players being ostracised or put down, besides from a few people in G&R which is hardly a significant portion of the community. osu! not primarily a multiplayer game, the atmosphere is fairly relaxed, and if you don't act like a dickhead generally you will get along fine, no matter your rank.
And osu! isn't a team game. I don't know why you think one example of a guy not being picked for an OWC team is any evidence of elitism, because it's clearly not. And the French team were idiots for not picking him and got what they deserved by losing, because OWC is predicated on individual skill, not teamwork.
And he was entirely justified in his response. It's not "elitist" to want to best players available. That's called meritocracy. In fact, I could go so far as to say that the French OWC team was discriminating against fils.
And yet yo completely fail to make a case as to why fils is a "toxic" person, or justify why "chemistry" is an appropriate reason to discriminate against someone. If they don't like him, then too bad, they should get over their differences and work together to do their best in OWC. Because obviously they completely failed without him, and because they discriminated against him they let down their entire country. Cause and effect is quite clear.
And you're the one who brought it up so don't blame me. You've yet to provide any substantial peice of evidence of any elitism whatsoever, or that it negatively affects osu!.
And you're the one who brought it up so don't blame me. You've yet to provide any substantial peice of evidence of any elitism whatsoever, or that it negatively affects osu!.
Uh, I refuted your "evidence" because that's literally the only "evidence" that you've brought forward during your entire collection of posts. You have failed to demonstrate any of your claims. Number one is just people being sick of players for asking questions that could be answered by 2 minutes looking at the wiki, and there is zero evidence that higher ranked players "refuse to communicate" with low ranked players; rather it's just the case that people associate with people similar ranks as themselves because they play the same general difficulty of maps.
And in the case of the "case study" of fils, you have made the ridiculous proposition that his comment is an example of a widespread problem of "elitism", when in fact it's blindingly obvious to anyone that he is not gloating because he is just a better player and wants to rub it in other people's faces, but rather he is pointing out the obvious error of making a OWC team without including the best players and mocking them for their mistake.
"Elitism" isn't always a problem. A good dose of "elitism" is healthy because the alternative is having no standards and catering to the lowest common denominator.
And in the case of the "case study" of fils, you have made the ridiculous proposition that his comment is an example of a widespread problem of "elitism", when in fact it's blindingly obvious to anyone that he is not gloating because he is just a better player and wants to rub it in other people's faces, but rather he is pointing out the obvious error of making a OWC team without including the best players and mocking them for their mistake.
"Elitism" isn't always a problem. A good dose of "elitism" is healthy because the alternative is having no standards and catering to the lowest common denominator.
He didn't even apply lol. He's just a prick, nothing to do with elitism.StuNiPid wrote:
filsdelama applied for the French team for OWC 2017 but was not picked and France lost during group stage
fils did not even apply, as confirmed by poon lol. he is just being an idiot like the 15 year old he is
You're the one whose arguments are irrelevant until you can actually back them up with something. And I'm not sure what evidence you want me to provide - you're the one making the claim, it's your job to provide evidence. And then you expect that mentioning some stream, as if I'm supposed to know what stream it is, is something I'm supposed to take seriously. It's not my job to go on wild goose chases so I can validate your point. The post you showed was his quote, and trying to use that as evidence as some wide trend is so laughable that you ought not have even done it - I can cherry pick any one out of a million posts about osu! and try to use that as evidence as a wider trend, but logic doesn't work like that.
OK, so making some comments about a drunk stream and then apologising = "toxic person"? The harassment experienced by fils for wrongthink is much worse than what he did, you ought to be blaming the community making a drama over everything and treating top players like celebrities.
B1rd is uh, really taking it away here with this one. I'm sorta impressed.
He might be being a hardass about it, but he's not wrong. If you're making the claim, the onus is on you to provide the proof necessary to support your claim, not rely on others to do so for you.
He might be being a hardass about it, but he's not wrong. If you're making the claim, the onus is on you to provide the proof necessary to support your claim, not rely on others to do so for you.
E m i
we can't infer anything or be sure of the indication... it would be silly to a similar degree if every player in their team chose to play with 240fps lock for example, it's similarily possibly making their situation worse not to have fils on their team. it's silly because there is a minor probability that they would have done better with fils on their team, who was specifically refused entry. even if we found out, using a time machine, that they would still lose with fils on their team, it would remain silly because they ignored an advantage, an optimal scenario.StuNiPid wrote:
we can infer that fils is implying that if he had been chosen to represent his country, they would've passed group stage. Whether true or not, this is highly indicative of an elitist mindset.
Making a big fuss out of something simple and understandable, while making huge wall of text to try to sound intellectual, way to go there mate.
I'm not going to get my torch of pitchfork out against someone based on limited information. But what if you're right and fils is a typical French person? What does that prove? It proves that one person who acts in an "elitists" way based on your own claims, is vilified by the entire community including other top players. Do you know what that shows? It shows that there's a strong anti-"elitist" tendency in the community .StuNiPid wrote:
B1rd wrote:
OK, so making some comments about a drunk stream and then apologising = "toxic person"? The harassment experienced by fils for wrongthink is much worse than what he did, you ought to be blaming the community making a drama over everything and treating top players like celebrities.
You done now?
This is more a personality issue than anything.
In a game with such a large playerbase you're bound to have players who like feeling better than others. This doesn't mean osu! is having issues with elitism though. My experience in this community for the past 3 years has led me to believe that the mojortiy of the best players are very humble. Its kind of a common couresy of sorts.
The osu! community reacts pretty harshly when someone steps over the line. A great example is the recent stream from Rohulk, where he loses to bubbleman in a tournament and isn't very pleased about it. He says some dumb shit where his ego truly shows, and the community turns it into a meme like a kind of punishment. Here's a video if you've been living under a rock
In a game with such a large playerbase you're bound to have players who like feeling better than others. This doesn't mean osu! is having issues with elitism though. My experience in this community for the past 3 years has led me to believe that the mojortiy of the best players are very humble. Its kind of a common couresy of sorts.
The osu! community reacts pretty harshly when someone steps over the line. A great example is the recent stream from Rohulk, where he loses to bubbleman in a tournament and isn't very pleased about it. He says some dumb shit where his ego truly shows, and the community turns it into a meme like a kind of punishment. Here's a video if you've been living under a rock
- Putting others down due to higher knowledge technicallyDepends, really, If you speak with someone who apply attitude "I don't know shit but will speak" and put him down, it is clear taking out advantage of real knowledge and fixing misleading information spread by this guy.
- "Gloating" or "Showing off" due to a higher skillsetAgree
- Refusing to communicate with lower ranks as they are seen as inferiorAgree a lot, it is very common behavior in top1000 since they feel "elite". Not everyone but majority of players there doesn't even look at someone in midrank, not to mention newbie.
filsdelama applied for the French team for OWC 2017 but was not picked and France lost during group stageFalse, ThePoon confirmed that fils didn't register to OWC and lied about it.
The second is one of the most common in the upper ranks (3 digit-1 digit). Often times, rank will be used as a counter-argument during discussion - "No, you're wrong, I am 1/2/3 digit you moronic 4/5/6 digit". This can even apply to people in the 1 digit ranks looking down on those below them; an excellent example of this is filsdelama tweeting against the French team during OWCfils delivers autism all around, just cut this shit out, everyone knows he is mentally challenged.
About your example - depends. For me, when I had ~800pp I was able to quote you whatever you asked from wiki, from memory, literally. Old habit of going deep into game mechanic which was essential in EVE Online to be good at that game, it very rarely happen to me that someone tried to shut me down while I was speaking about mechanics, despite I was a newbie rank.
The third is a minor gripe and need not apply to most, but those downright refusing to speak to lower ranks may suffer from superiority complex. This doesn't apply to players who stream or are extremely popular within the community, as they receive a large amount of messages per day, but this applies mainly to those in the mid 4-5 digit ranks, who often times do not want to reply to people in the 6 digits who may have concerns or are asking for help from them. After all this is meant to be a community.Once I done a test, simple test, tried to speak with every single person in top100, every known mapper, tried to catch some discussion, even about irl, some random things, not even entirely on osu! topic. Less than 10% answered and was speaking with me. More than 90% just didn't gave a fuck. I can only assume that they don't speak with midranks/newbies or everyone who is not a "pro".
Just my 3 cents.
I don't know why people think it's every player's responsibility to entertain every PM from some random nobody they receive ingame. They are here to play the game like everyone else, not answer every one of the dozens of PMs they probably receive on a weekly basis.
The actual problem is that GMT won't bother responding to PMs and act like arseholes when you talk to them, and it's their job to talk to people. Never mind players and mappers.
The actual problem is that GMT won't bother responding to PMs and act like arseholes when you talk to them, and it's their job to talk to people. Never mind players and mappers.
tyB1rd wrote:
I don't know why people think it's every player's responsibility to entertain every PM from some random nobody they receive ingame. They are here to play the game like everyone else, not answer every one of the dozens of PMs they probably receive on a weekly basis.
from my experience and from watching streams, half the time it's just the same question repeated for the 100th time or some dead meme that's turned unfunny... oh and dont forget notice me senpai
this example is an outlier, but even a quarter of this isn't uncommon on a daily basis, and it's enough to wear out my sanity[Taiga] wrote:
Once I done a test, simple test, tried to speak with every single person in top100, every known mapper, tried to catch some discussion, even about irl, some random things, not even entirely on osu! topic. Less than 10% answered and was speaking with me. More than 90% just didn't gave a fuck. I can only assume that they don't speak with midranks/newbies or everyone who is not a "pro".
top players/mappers are human too you know
forget about giving fucks or what your rank is, I don't expect many people to have patience for this
E m i
Lol Nathan, wait wait.
It's a super specific personality trait to ignore people as opposed to giving them a one-liner that takes 4 seconds to type "sry i'm busy" or whatever.
I wouldn't do it to anyone even if I was getting 100 messages per hour and only like 20 people in this game are getting an unrespondable amount of messages.
Thus 70 out of 90 must indeed either be lazy , arrogant or have a high empathy threshold.
Even if it's not a matter of "yes and no" but just an increasing amount of effort in terms of how much it takes.
I never ignore anyone, but maybe I am overly sensitive to getting ignored, potentially.
It's a super specific personality trait to ignore people as opposed to giving them a one-liner that takes 4 seconds to type "sry i'm busy" or whatever.
I wouldn't do it to anyone even if I was getting 100 messages per hour and only like 20 people in this game are getting an unrespondable amount of messages.
Thus 70 out of 90 must indeed either be lazy , arrogant or have a high empathy threshold.
Even if it's not a matter of "yes and no" but just an increasing amount of effort in terms of how much it takes.
I never ignore anyone, but maybe I am overly sensitive to getting ignored, potentially.
Not really a super specific personality trait, but rather to one side on a the scales of personality dimensions.
Given that the top 100 are probably highly competitive, that's indicative that they're generally disagreeable, therefore they wouldn't care about hurting some random's feelings.
Given that the top 100 are probably highly competitive, that's indicative that they're generally disagreeable, therefore they wouldn't care about hurting some random's feelings.
"sorry I'm busy" is a reply I give fairly commonly, and I take the effort to do it because it's generally in response to something meaningful, like a legit question or mod request
But when it's a meaningless dead joke or w/e (which is usually the case, and I'm sure it's even worse for top players), what worthwhile answer am I supposed to come up with? Am I supposed to act amused and let the other person continue rambling on thinking they're funny or that I'm interested? I don't even know what I'm supposed to type besides "lol" or "ok," which can sometimes translate into "I don't care please just stop." Well, I guess I could be straightforward and say that too, but that sounds even worse to me honestly. Or, I could not respond at all and achieve a similar effect, without taking the risk of a conversation being awkwardly forced and extended.
tbh I don't think I've ever intentionally ignored anyone either, but I wish that I had done it sometimes
meaningful
2016-08-26 11:21 person1: helo c: is it a big no-no in the mapping world to take nice hitsounds directly from other maps folders to use on my map? or is it ok? I don't wanna break the mappers code ;-;
2016-08-26 11:23 sukiNathan: if it's something complex like keysounding then the mapper might not like it
2016-08-26 11:23 sukiNathan: if it's something basic such as snares/kicks then most people dont care, but in both cases you can ask if you want to be sure
2016-08-26 11:24 person1: oh oki thx! c:
2016-08-26 11:25 sukiNathan: np!
2016-08-26 11:23 sukiNathan: if it's something complex like keysounding then the mapper might not like it
2016-08-26 11:23 sukiNathan: if it's something basic such as snares/kicks then most people dont care, but in both cases you can ask if you want to be sure
2016-08-26 11:24 person1: oh oki thx! c:
2016-08-26 11:25 sukiNathan: np!
But when it's a meaningless dead joke or w/e (which is usually the case, and I'm sure it's even worse for top players), what worthwhile answer am I supposed to come up with? Am I supposed to act amused and let the other person continue rambling on thinking they're funny or that I'm interested? I don't even know what I'm supposed to type besides "lol" or "ok," which can sometimes translate into "I don't care please just stop." Well, I guess I could be straightforward and say that too, but that sounds even worse to me honestly. Or, I could not respond at all and achieve a similar effect, without taking the risk of a conversation being awkwardly forced and extended.
what
2016-09-12 15:39 person2: ki
2016-09-12 15:39 person2: map in peace
2016-09-12 15:39 sukiNathan: huh
2016-09-12 15:41 person2: ?
2016-09-12 15:48 person2: plz enjoy game/mapping ki
2016-09-12 15:48 person2: tht wt i wntd to say tbh
2016-09-12 15:39 person2: map in peace
2016-09-12 15:39 sukiNathan: huh
2016-09-12 15:41 person2: ?
2016-09-12 15:48 person2: plz enjoy game/mapping ki
2016-09-12 15:48 person2: tht wt i wntd to say tbh
tbh I don't think I've ever intentionally ignored anyone either, but I wish that I had done it sometimes
Can't you just block PM's from non-friends? Not sure how big the friendlist is in this game, and I might be wrong thinking that people just randomly mutual too many actually irrelevant (as in: you'll prob never talk to them and just added them for the sake of having a full list) people.
Obviously people don't respond to retarded meme spam because memes in essence are just empty one-liners that don't really serve a purpose in a conversation. They don't raise a question nor do they state anything, so memers shouldn't expect anyone to respond to their uncreative copypasta.
I've only messaged one "celebrity" in this game, and got a pretty detailed answer, so I wouldn't say that most of them are elitists or arrogant about anything.
Obviously people don't respond to retarded meme spam because memes in essence are just empty one-liners that don't really serve a purpose in a conversation. They don't raise a question nor do they state anything, so memers shouldn't expect anyone to respond to their uncreative copypasta.
I've only messaged one "celebrity" in this game, and got a pretty detailed answer, so I wouldn't say that most of them are elitists or arrogant about anything.
blocking pms from non friends, i see it as a bit dickish. like i understand why people do it but as someone important / well known people end up asking questions a lot and come to you for help, if it isnt completely retarded then helping random noobs who ask questions is nice imo..
its 250Rayne wrote:
Not sure how big the friendlist is in this game,
also I find ppl turning on blocking non-friend pms to be really annoying especially when that person isn't well known or anything (or in some cases, when they msg me and I wanna reply but I can't cuz they block non-friend pms)
Get out of here commie.Uta wrote:
can we just love each other lol
I agree with your points being raised however sometime i can forgive players for not answering every question of the lower ranks, it can get annoying especially if your just sat trying to play yourself, i personally look on twitch at some of the lower ranked players to try and give as much as advice as i can as a 39k player because i remember how hard the game was when i first started but its not for everyone and some people would rather just keep to themselves and play the game and that i understand 