that's not an argumentNepNep- wrote:
^ This is Gold.
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osu!, touchscreens and you
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191
that's perfectEraser wrote:
"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.
"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.
"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.
"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.
"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
Since when was this post an argument?itsamemarioo wrote:
that's not an argumentNepNep- wrote:
^ This is Gold.
Say that to the multiple people that said "Good work peppy!.
Ugh., People these days.
Yes, the people who simply "good job Peppy" aren't really helping to solve the problem, but neither was Eraser's post at all. One person's shitpost does not in any way make another man's shitpost magically less shitty. Eraser's post was indeed completely irrelevant because it completely ignored the problems and issues that allow a 900pp Haitai touchscreen play to exist (many of which Peppy pointed out himself) and instead simply spouts nonsense meant entirely to fuel the "touchscreen is cheatscreen" circle-jerk.
get a life and stop being mad over a circle clicking game lmao
It can also be interpreted as calming the people in this post arguing about whether the 900pp play was deserved. I worded that terribly, but you should get my point. People are still stating their opinions in this post with the 900pp, so I'd say it's relevant, but completely useless to the forum post itself.Harmony11 wrote:
Yes, the people who simply "good job Peppy" aren't really helping to solve the problem, but neither was Eraser's post at all. One person's shitpost does not in any way make another man's shitpost magically less shitty. Eraser's post was indeed completely irrelevant because it completely ignored the problems and issues that allow a 900pp Haitai touchscreen play to exist (many of which Peppy pointed out himself) and instead simply spouts nonsense meant entirely to fuel the "touchscreen is cheatscreen" circle-jerk.
This guy should quit, point 4 is compared so stupidly bad that I cringe. Maybe add something good to discussion.Eraser wrote:
"Who cares if touchscreen is broken"
Uhm, a lot of players. This is a competitive game, not a truck driving simulator.
"This map is hard, he deserved it."
Then I also deserved the bicycle racing trophy because I participated using a motor bike.
"But they can only play limited number of maps!"
And those maps are jump-dominant maps, which takes like 85% of the whole map pool.
"It's the mappers fault for mapping jump maps!"
It's Riot's fault that you became a degenerate who run down mid whenever he couldn't get his favorite champ.
"Why do you even care that he got 900pp? He is legit, just accept that that is the new pp record!"
boi
That would be a good idealolarisan wrote:
Maybe there could be an option on your profile where u select touchscreen and it will automatically be sent to another leaderboard?
Alright, alright, here is a solution I had in mind. I only skimmed through the pages, so it might has been mentioned before.
Ban touchscreen from standard completely and make it a new game mode.
There's so much difference of playstyle between touchscreen and mouse/tablet, it doesn't even look comparable anymore. Touchscreen greatly reduces the aim aspect from standard, which is one the biggest things that differentiate osu! from other traditional rhythm games. Of course, they can still play standard maps, but as an auto-convert.
Touchscreen would be better off having its own game mode. People can be more creative with touchscreen here, with gimmicks like double taps, double sliders, or cross-screen-back-and-forth "stream", which are (practically) impossible in standard.
And there is osu arcade, why not take some elements from there too?
Ban touchscreen from standard completely and make it a new game mode.
There's so much difference of playstyle between touchscreen and mouse/tablet, it doesn't even look comparable anymore. Touchscreen greatly reduces the aim aspect from standard, which is one the biggest things that differentiate osu! from other traditional rhythm games. Of course, they can still play standard maps, but as an auto-convert.
Touchscreen would be better off having its own game mode. People can be more creative with touchscreen here, with gimmicks like double taps, double sliders, or cross-screen-back-and-forth "stream", which are (practically) impossible in standard.
And there is osu arcade, why not take some elements from there too?
Peppy has already stated that separating the pp system between the two is not a good idea, and your suggestion is pretty much the same. It's in the main post.Eraser wrote:
Alright, alright, here is a solution I had in mind. I only skimmed through the pages, so it might has been mentioned before.
Ban touchscreen from standard completely and make it a new game mode.
There's so much difference of playstyle between touchscreen and mouse/tablet, it doesn't even look comparable anymore. Touchscreen greatly reduces the aim aspect from standard, which is one the biggest things that differentiate osu! from other traditional rhythm games. Of course, they can still play standard maps, but as an auto-convert.
Touchscreen would be better off having its own game mode. People can be more creative with touchscreen here, with gimmicks like double taps, double sliders, or cross-screen-back-and-forth "stream", which are (practically) impossible in standard.
And there is osu arcade, why not take some elements from there too?
It is possible, but doing so would be extremely costly. Already counting the sparsity of touchscreen players, It wont be as fun for them.
It's not about separating the pp system, it's about separating the whole peripheral. Make it a new unique game instead of a way of playing standard.
It's still the same thing isn't it? Separating into two unique gamemodes is still splitting the leaderboards, Just like what peppy said.Eraser wrote:
It's not about separating the pp system, it's about separating the whole peripheral. Make it a new unique game instead of a way of playing standard.
peppy already stated the problems of doing this.
Well, it's not our job to decide if it's possible or not, so we'll see.
Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one? Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps? Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
So many questions, yet too complcated to answer
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one? Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps? Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
So many questions, yet too complcated to answer
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
ExGon got a 1099pp play w/ touchscreen pre-tag4 nerf, however people did outcry over it which is why tag4 was nerfed etc.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one? Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps? Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
So many questions, yet too complcated to answer
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
Edit: Corrected by Mismagius
no he didnt, the play was post-nerf. the play that caused tag4 to give no pp was kuvster's 578pp play
twirl_old_1
This has probably already been suggested, but why not make a sort of "Multi-Platform osu!droid" ? I always thought that abandoning osu!droid was a shame, and with a version of it supporting Android, iOS and Windows, it could give touchscreen players their own leaderboards and expand osu! as a game. The mechanic where you would tap on a stream with one finger, and use another to actually be able to accurately hit streams would make it much more of a rythm game experience as well. I'm assuming there's a good reason for osu!droid being canceled, but this would give it an awesome purpose in my opinion.
We did.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
There was.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one?
The score isn't popular.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
No one has tried to discussed "pp inflation".Grim Rapper wrote:
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
People have to retry more to FC the map than to just enjoy a map.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps?
Because people are incapable of understanding that the issue is aim, accuracy is just a technical limitation.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
Because pp was made like 4 years ago and the idea of doing streams above 250bpm consistently wasn't really considered.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
You do.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
This game is also an aim game and you're not getting it.Grim Rapper wrote:
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
We are aware that pp is flawed and that touchscreen isn't comparable to other input methods.Grim Rapper wrote:
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
This isn't the original game.twirl wrote:
touchscreen is possibly the play style that is most faithful to the original game; right after tablet! no part of me thinks that touchscreen should be nerfed as they have their own flaws (not being able to stream)!
Osu isn't just a rhythm game, it's a competetive game, and that's something you're not getting. If there's a playstyle that unbalances the ranking system of the game, A system that allows players to set absurd scores according to most of us, then that calls for a reform.Grim Rapper wrote:
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
My question is: What will removing PP do relative to the ranking system? I do recall a time where we didn't have pp, and at that time I was fairly new... but I distinctly recall gaining 30k ranks from one play where I 70% FC'd an "Insane" (5* at the time, when it was the max amount of stars) AR7 map. Isn't that sort of broken? I jumped from rank 87k to 54k in that one play. pp solved this artificial skill-increase problem... so are we hoping for that to come back? Is that why everyone wants to take away pp? But if pp is changed, then what will we do? Score V2 is a largely failing system that shouldn't be implemented and from what I can tell has been dumpstered. So now where are we headed?
Still didn't answer anything imo, but it was better than ignorancejesse1412 wrote:
We did.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when ExGon got his 400pp with Touchscreen?
It's been 2 years. Unless if I missed some discussion somewhere, I'd never see anything else beside 1 youtube commentThere was.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why there's no outbreak when itsmemarioo and freedomdiver got 700pp+ such as this one?
When I said as "this one", is as chaotic as the Developer (a.k.a peppy) himself needed to resolve itThe score isn't popular.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why nobody is complaining when Girl set a score in Astrosexy as "too easy"?
I'm talking about difficulty, not about the fame of the map? What's this mentality of "We'll fix this after the others are yelling it to us"?No one has tried to discussed "pp inflation".Grim Rapper wrote:
Why anybody who's talking about "pp inflation" argument get shut down for little to no reason?
People have to retry more to FC the map than to just enjoy a map.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why the most played beatmaps are pp maps?
Which is will become more famous, and more player will adore the map and the mapper, the mapper create the same thing that the player wants, and the cycle continues. Great Idea for a commuity to uphold quality, right?Because people are incapable of understanding that the issue is aim, accuracy is just a technical limitation.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why the accuracy on touchscreen become an issues when that's the drawback of the touchscreen like any other peripherals have their own drawback?
SapphireGhost and Bonk (despite their inactivity) shows that touchscreen CAN have accuracy, it's the preference that makes it a technical limitation, do you still want to ban them based of their playstyle?Because pp was made like 4 years ago and the idea of doing streams above 250bpm consistently wasn't really considered.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why high-BPM on jumps is given better than high-BPM streams?
Is that suppose to be the the argument against me?You do.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why it's called "click circles to the beat" when you didn't get punished for having bad accuracy?
Why you're targeting me when I'm targeting about the controversial play? I'm talking about why when the controversial play received so many pp with that glaring accuracy, when comparing to YOUR insane streams play on Native Faith get less pp? or any straining streams play at all?This game is also an aim game and you're not getting it.Grim Rapper wrote:
Opinion of mine is: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting
Then why streams are exist in the first place? You can change it into sliderkicks (or whatever do you want to called them) and it still be ranked if the QAT was following your logic. The reason of Hollow Wings even makes a continuous squares in a 1/8 map is EXACTLY trying to counter your argument (imo, idk if HW is intending to do that)We are aware that pp is flawed and that touchscreen isn't comparable to other input methods.Grim Rapper wrote:
We'll see if this game will be realized it's own flawed system or not, clearly they prefer quality over community response, right?
but let's blame the touchscreen player instead, we know the pp system is FLAWED, but people enjoying it right? and A LOT OF mapper enjoy ABUSING it by making EVERYTHING pp-based so why not, RIGHT?
Cheers, No hard feelings
I lost count of how many times you put words in jesse's mouth there, grim Rapper.
I think there were a few misunderstandings between us but everything I've wanted to say about this topic has been said so I'm going to leave the discussion for now.Grim Rapper wrote:
Still didn't answer anything imo, but it was better than ignorance
Cheers, No hard feelings
Since jesse just left, I'll be the one trying to reply.
Jesse is correct and accuracy does punish pp, obviously. But you're right and accuracy does no punish you enough when you get it too low.
This post was done really terribly since I was on an iPad, apologize for any typos and such if you see any.
You just asked for "Why no one is complaining" and you're talking about DifficultyGrim Rapper wrote:
I'm talking about difficulty, not about the fame of the map? What's this mentality of "We'll fix this after the others are yelling it to us"?
No need to mention the accuracy touchscreen players, The people here are annoyed at the 76% 900pp after all. We were never mad at them to begin with apart from people hating touchscreen in general.Grim Rapper wrote:
SapphireGhost and Bonk (despite their inactivity) shows that touchscreen CAN have accuracy, it's the preference that makes it a technical limitation, do you still want to ban them based of their playstyle?
Assuming his "You do" is not a directed to you, but implying "You do" in a general perspective.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why you're targeting me when I'm targeting about the controversial play? I'm talking about why when the controversial play received so many pp with that glaring accuracy, when comparing to YOUR insane streams play on Native Faith get less pp? or any straining streams play at all?
Jesse is correct and accuracy does punish pp, obviously. But you're right and accuracy does no punish you enough when you get it too low.
Streams exist as a element to synergize better with the music, Most of the map is still aim related. Even streams can be difficult to aim. Stating "but there are streams" and "We can use sidekicks" is not valid.Grim Rapper wrote:
Then why streams are exist in the first place? You can change it into sliderkicks (or whatever do you want to called them) and it still be ranked if the QAT was following your logic. The reason of Hollow Wings even makes a continuous squares in a 1/8 map is EXACTLY trying to counter your argument (imo, idk if HW is intending to do that)
The people completely blind are flaming the touchscreen players, When it's the pp system being flawed, and touchscreen being vastly different. I can understand people being mad since a playstyle being very different claiming the top play. It isn't about pp, The very fact he was able to fc it 3 times in one hour, is also a reason. It's not just about the pp sytsem being flawed, It's touchscreen being largely different from other playstyles, and that difference is what enrages other players.Grim Rapper wrote:
but let's blame the touchscreen player instead, we know the pp system is FLAWED, but people enjoying it right? and A LOT OF mapper enjoy ABUSING it by making EVERYTHING pp-based so why not, RIGHT?
That's very cocky of you. I believe you didn't completely answer all his statements.Grim Rapper wrote:
Still didn't answer anything imo, but it was better than ignorance
Cheers, No hard feelings
This post was done really terribly since I was on an iPad, apologize for any typos and such if you see any.
I don't think a leaderboard separation would work at all. While it is the easiest (and most expensive) option, it's not a 100% solution because you can't police that kind of thing at all.
The reason separate leaderboards work between standard, mania, and taiko are because they are game modes that require very unique sets of input. The very way the game is played is different from one another. The problem with touchscreen is that it's not a different way of playing standard, but it's just a form of playing that gives the player a unique advantage of not having to stress so much while jumping and aiming.
But let's say that peppy lays down his fist and by some miracle of Pippy, a separate leaderboards for touchscreen is implemented. How would this be enforced? Keep in mind that I've already said that the reason separate leaderboards between standard, taiko, and mania works is because the gamemodes require very different input setups. For example, taiko requires two dons and two kats while mania requires a setup that resembles a piano.
The point is that touchscreen isn't an entirely different game, it just gives an advantage in the same game. Unless you can tell by some magic that a player is using touchscreen, there's going to be no way to effectively deal with them.
Maybe the fact that touchscreen players have to move their hands in certain ways so that they don't get in the way of each other is enough to compensate, but that clearly isn't enough. Or it's just that the mapping meta doesn't make it an issue enough for people to not complain.
The reason separate leaderboards work between standard, mania, and taiko are because they are game modes that require very unique sets of input. The very way the game is played is different from one another. The problem with touchscreen is that it's not a different way of playing standard, but it's just a form of playing that gives the player a unique advantage of not having to stress so much while jumping and aiming.
But let's say that peppy lays down his fist and by some miracle of Pippy, a separate leaderboards for touchscreen is implemented. How would this be enforced? Keep in mind that I've already said that the reason separate leaderboards between standard, taiko, and mania works is because the gamemodes require very different input setups. For example, taiko requires two dons and two kats while mania requires a setup that resembles a piano.
- An option that lets people say whether they are playing on touchscreen or not.
This doesn't work. It might work in cases where the playerbase is loyal, but if I'm the kind of person who just wants to prove that I have a higher rank than others on a leaderboard, I could easily just play on a touchscreen device while saying that I am not actually playing on touchscreen. As long as I don't make a big name for myself, no one will ever bother to check my replays unless someone is bothered that this guy passed them on the leaderboards. - Asking the computer if touch is enabled or not.
This doesn't work, either.
What if I'm a mouse/tablet player and I play on a laptop that happens to have a touchscreen? Should I be punished for forgetting to turn off my touchscreen feature?
Will all operating systems tell you if they are touchscreen?
Do all peripheral devices that are more or less "touchscreen" tell you that they allow touchscreen?
What happens if I use a tablet that allows my fingers as input? It would require more hand-eye coordination than an actual touchscreen, but the advantage is the same. - Checking how fast the cursor is moving.
What would be the limit for how fast a cursor should move in a given amount of time?
What if someone moves so fast with a tablet that the checking system thinks that they are using touchscreen?
What if a tablet hover player accidentally lifts his pen just a little bit too far while making that one jump? Should he/she be penalized for that? - If osu!lazer on mobile gets different leaderboards, throw them on there!
Before I talk about this, I need you to know that I don't know if this is actually true.
Even if this was true, however, people on osu!lazer mobile would start complaining that because touchscreen players have larger interfaces they have an unfair advantage over them and it's an entirely different game because of that. It would kill the hearts of those playing osu!lazer mobile on mobile and not on a touchscreen laptop.
By the way, the only reason you could make a separate leaderboard for osu!mobile is because you'd be downloading the game through the App Store or Google Play or whatever, and the mobile app could easily check if it's the right version. But because you can plug in whatever device into a computer and because both a touchscreen and a non-touchscreen laptop both run Windows, the same solution doesn't translate well to dealing with touchscreen players. - An osu!touchscreen policing force that checks everyone's replays to make sure they aren't touchscreen.
Even as a serious option, the staffing required is ridiculous if touchscreen becomes more mainstream.
The point is that touchscreen isn't an entirely different game, it just gives an advantage in the same game. Unless you can tell by some magic that a player is using touchscreen, there's going to be no way to effectively deal with them.
Maybe the fact that touchscreen players have to move their hands in certain ways so that they don't get in the way of each other is enough to compensate, but that clearly isn't enough. Or it's just that the mapping meta doesn't make it an issue enough for people to not complain.
For fuck sake, just globally nerf high distance spacing jumps, globally nerf low acc pp to give little to zero pp and stop blaming touchscreen.
Reading some people here makes me think that FCC is a good reason to exist and should be executed outside of US...
Reading some people here makes me think that FCC is a good reason to exist and should be executed outside of US...
You can't just globally nerf high-distance jumps/low acc and call it a day.[Taiga] wrote:
For fuck sake, just globally nerf high distance spacing jumps, globally nerf low acc pp to give little to zero pp and stop blaming touchscreen.
Reading some people here makes me think that FCC is a good reason to exist and should be executed outside of US...
Introduce a value called "travel distance" to all maps. This distance is measured by how much the cursor moves while the map is played in auto mode - not counting sliders or spinners.citremi wrote:
[*]Checking how fast the cursor is moving.
What would be the limit for how fast a cursor should move in a given amount of time?
What if someone moves so fast with a tablet that the checking system thinks that they are using touchscreen?
What if a tablet hover player accidentally lifts his pen just a little bit too far while making that one jump? Should he/she be penalized for that?
If at the end of a play the player's travel distance is less than 10% of the one generated by the game then the game assumes there was a lot of warping involved and thus touchscreen was used.
Cursor movements beyond a certain speed (clear warping like half the screen in one frame) won't add to the player's travel distance.
I started playing osu! with a graphics tablet, then switched to touchscreen. I currently play using a stylus on a Surface Book (i.e. a single input point) & no keyboard. I've used both a digitizing screen (the cursor follows your hand when you hover, so it looks the same as a tablet play as long as you don't pull your hand back too far) and non-digitizing (the cursor can't move unless you click, so it looks like the cursor is jumping around erratically). I've tried using a mouse in the past as well.
If you try switching from a mouse to a tablet to a touchscreen, you'd realize that there's a similar gap in ability between mouse & tablet as there is between tablet & touchscreen. Tablet & touchscreen are both free-moving, frictionless points for jumps (and if you're using a digitized touchscreen or a tablet, both with keyboard, it's frictionless for EVERYTHING, while non-digitized touchscreens are slowed by friction for sliders); mouses are not. This means both tablet & touchscreen have a massive advantage over mouse for jumps, or honestly for ANY element since fine motor control is way better on both. Tablets with touch capability can even use multiple points of contact if you set them up correctly, making the only difference between them and an actual touchscreen the fact that there's a visual disconnect (which you get over with practice). One of the best things you can do for accuracy is ditch mouse and go for a tablet, and there are significantly more tablet players in the upper ranks than mouse players because of this. Yet does anyone call for tablet to be ranked separate from mouse? No, because everyone is already so familiar with that technology that it's just an accepted fact of life by now.
Accuracy, while easier on touchscreen, is also not entirely sidestepped (that's why if you look at most touchscreen players profiles, even if they mostly avoid stream maps--which are near-impossible without keyboard--there's not some massive boost in their accuracy rating compared to their tablet-using counterparts). You're still moving to click something on time.
There's also a sizing issue--if you're using a touchscreen laptop or standalone monitor, NOT a phone or tiny tablet, they're way bigger than almost every graphics tablet. I have a medium Wacom Intuos P&T and that thing has like 1/2 the usable area of the smallest touchscreen I've used (Microsoft Surface Book) and an even bigger difference compared to the larger ones I've used (HP Envy x360, Toshiba Satellite Radius). The time it takes to jump is longer than for a tablet and while you can window osu! to combat this, that adds to another issue: blind spots. Your hand covers part of the screen, especially if you're playing in a smaller window or on maps with tinier notes, something completely irrelevant to tablet users.
We're likely to see more people with touchscreens in the near feature as the technology becomes more widespread and less expensive (and the fact that there will be ipad/tablet versions of osu! eventually). So acting like it's some scary foreign thing needs to die. And because of the increasing tech availability & the fact that people can now have had them long enough to be seasoned with them, we're also probably going to end up with more skilled touchscreen players breaking into the top ranks. If you could accept tablets, you will learn to accept touchscreens too. Calm down.
-------
The PP system weights large jumps way more than any other element so modern mappers have taken to focusing heavily on that. Maps that are less than a minute long and almost exclusively jumps shouldn't be capable of giving out so much PP to begin with, yet that's what the system rewards right now. Once that's fixed there's really nothing else to do and things will just fall back into normalcy.
If you try switching from a mouse to a tablet to a touchscreen, you'd realize that there's a similar gap in ability between mouse & tablet as there is between tablet & touchscreen. Tablet & touchscreen are both free-moving, frictionless points for jumps (and if you're using a digitized touchscreen or a tablet, both with keyboard, it's frictionless for EVERYTHING, while non-digitized touchscreens are slowed by friction for sliders); mouses are not. This means both tablet & touchscreen have a massive advantage over mouse for jumps, or honestly for ANY element since fine motor control is way better on both. Tablets with touch capability can even use multiple points of contact if you set them up correctly, making the only difference between them and an actual touchscreen the fact that there's a visual disconnect (which you get over with practice). One of the best things you can do for accuracy is ditch mouse and go for a tablet, and there are significantly more tablet players in the upper ranks than mouse players because of this. Yet does anyone call for tablet to be ranked separate from mouse? No, because everyone is already so familiar with that technology that it's just an accepted fact of life by now.
Accuracy, while easier on touchscreen, is also not entirely sidestepped (that's why if you look at most touchscreen players profiles, even if they mostly avoid stream maps--which are near-impossible without keyboard--there's not some massive boost in their accuracy rating compared to their tablet-using counterparts). You're still moving to click something on time.
There's also a sizing issue--if you're using a touchscreen laptop or standalone monitor, NOT a phone or tiny tablet, they're way bigger than almost every graphics tablet. I have a medium Wacom Intuos P&T and that thing has like 1/2 the usable area of the smallest touchscreen I've used (Microsoft Surface Book) and an even bigger difference compared to the larger ones I've used (HP Envy x360, Toshiba Satellite Radius). The time it takes to jump is longer than for a tablet and while you can window osu! to combat this, that adds to another issue: blind spots. Your hand covers part of the screen, especially if you're playing in a smaller window or on maps with tinier notes, something completely irrelevant to tablet users.
We're likely to see more people with touchscreens in the near feature as the technology becomes more widespread and less expensive (and the fact that there will be ipad/tablet versions of osu! eventually). So acting like it's some scary foreign thing needs to die. And because of the increasing tech availability & the fact that people can now have had them long enough to be seasoned with them, we're also probably going to end up with more skilled touchscreen players breaking into the top ranks. If you could accept tablets, you will learn to accept touchscreens too. Calm down.
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The PP system weights large jumps way more than any other element so modern mappers have taken to focusing heavily on that. Maps that are less than a minute long and almost exclusively jumps shouldn't be capable of giving out so much PP to begin with, yet that's what the system rewards right now. Once that's fixed there's really nothing else to do and things will just fall back into normalcy.
It's already a thing. My laptop has built-in Tobii Eye Tracking. I've used it to play and it's spectacularly annoying, since you can't look at upcoming notes lol. There's some footage from other people already up on Youtube (I recorded some as well but never got around to editing it).lolarisan wrote:
It's good that u brought this up so quick peppy.
As technology is getting more advanced by time maybe there are other "tools" we should consider an fix on as early as possible.
There are certain companies out there that are currently developing eye-tracking software. What are you thought on this seeing as this may be an issue?
Tablet and Mouse players don't have a significant gap unlike touchscreen. Touchscreen is considerably different in terms of aim, of course. That's why not too many was complaining when it started getting widespread.iridi wrote:
I started playing osu! with a graphics tablet, then switched to touchscreen. I currently play using a stylus on a Surface Book (i.e. a single input point) & no keyboard. I've used both a digitizing screen (the cursor follows your hand when you hover, so it looks the same as a tablet play as long as you don't pull your hand back too far) and non-digitizing (the cursor can't move unless you click, so it looks like the cursor is jumping around erratically). I've tried using a mouse in the past as well.
If you try switching from a mouse to a tablet to a touchscreen, you'd realize that there's a similar gap in ability between mouse & tablet as there is between tablet & touchscreen. Tablet & touchscreen are both free-moving, frictionless points for jumps (and if you're using a digitized touchscreen or a tablet, both with keyboard, it's frictionless for EVERYTHING, while non-digitized touchscreens are slowed by friction for sliders); mouses are not. This means both tablet & touchscreen have a massive advantage over mouse for jumps, or honestly for ANY element since fine motor control is way better on both. Tablets with touch capability can even use multiple points of contact if you set them up correctly, making the only difference between them and an actual touchscreen the fact that there's a visual disconnect (which you get over with practice). One of the best things you can do for accuracy is ditch mouse and go for a tablet, and there are significantly more tablet players in the upper ranks than mouse players because of this. Yet does anyone call for tablet to be ranked separate from mouse? No, because everyone is already so familiar with that technology that it's just an accepted fact of life by now.
Accuracy, while easier on touchscreen, is also not entirely sidestepped (that's why if you look at most touchscreen players profiles, even if they mostly avoid stream maps--which are near-impossible without keyboard--there's not some massive boost in their accuracy rating compared to their tablet-using counterparts). You're still moving to click something on time.
There's also a sizing issue--if you're using a touchscreen laptop or standalone monitor, NOT a phone or tiny tablet, they're way bigger than almost every graphics tablet. I have a medium Wacom Intuos P&T and that thing has like 1/2 the usable area of the smallest touchscreen I've used (Microsoft Surface Book) and an even bigger difference compared to the larger ones I've used (HP Envy x360, Toshiba Satellite Radius). The time it takes to jump is longer than for a tablet and while you can window osu! to combat this, that adds to another issue: blind spots. Your hand covers part of the screen, especially if you're playing in a smaller window or on maps with tinier notes, something completely irrelevant to tablet users.
We're likely to see more people with touchscreens in the near feature as the technology becomes more widespread and less expensive (and the fact that there will be ipad/tablet versions of osu! eventually). So acting like it's some scary foreign thing needs to die. And because of the increasing tech availability & the fact that people can now have had them long enough to be seasoned with them, we're also probably going to end up with more skilled touchscreen players breaking into the top ranks. If you could accept tablets, you will learn to accept touchscreens too. Calm down.
Nah, the styles do have a pretty big gap, comparable to the gap between touchscreen & tablet. Play with all three one after the other. The gap becomes less obvious with practice but it still exists (this applies to anything, even outside osu!, like someone on crutches can learn to run just as fast as someone without, but it still takes more effort in the long term).NepNep- wrote:
Tablet and Mouse players don't have a significant gap unlike touchscreen. Touchscreen is considerably different in terms of aim, of course. That's why not too many was complaining when it started getting widespread.
your experience is using a touchscreen as a 1:1 input device...NepNep- wrote:
[quote=iridi]I started playing osu! with a graphics tablet, then switched to touchscreen. I currently play using a stylus on a Surface Book (i.e. a single input point) & no keyboard. I've used both a digitizing screen (the cursor follows your hand when you hover, so it looks the same as a tablet play as long as you don't pull your hand back too far) and non-digitizing (the cursor can't move unless you click, so it looks like the cursor is jumping around erratically). I've tried using a mouse in the past as well.
If you try switching from a mouse to a tablet to a touchscreen, you'd realize that there's a similar gap in ability between mouse & tablet as there is between tablet & touchscreen. Tablet & touchscreen are both free-moving, frictionless points for jumps (and if you're using a digitized touchscreen or a tablet, both with keyboard, it's frictionless for EVERYTHING, while non-digitized touchscreens are slowed by friction for sliders); mouses are not. This means both tablet & touchscreen have a massive advantage over mouse for jumps, or honestly for ANY element since fine motor control is way better on both. Tablets with touch capability can even use multiple points of contact if you set them up correctly, making the only difference between them and an actual touchscreen the fact that there's a visual disconnect (which you get over with practice). One of the best things you can do for accuracy is ditch mouse and go for a tablet, and there are significantly more tablet players in the upper ranks than mouse players because of this. Yet does anyone call for tablet to be ranked separate from mouse? No, because everyone is already so familiar with that technology that it's just an accepted fact of life by now.
Accuracy, while easier on touchscreen, is also not entirely sidestepped (that's why if you look at most touchscreen players profiles, even if they mostly avoid stream maps--which are near-impossible without keyboard--there's not some massive boost in their accuracy rating compared to their tablet-using counterparts). You're still moving to click something on time.
There's also a sizing issue--if you're using a touchscreen laptop or standalone monitor, NOT a phone or tiny tablet, they're way bigger than almost every graphics tablet. I have a medium Wacom Intuos P&T and that thing has like 1/2 the usable area of the smallest touchscreen I've used (Microsoft Surface Book) and an even bigger difference compared to the larger ones I've used (HP Envy x360, Toshiba Satellite Radius). The time it takes to jump is longer than for a tablet and while you can window osu! to combat this, that adds to another issue: blind spots. Your hand covers part of the screen, especially if you're playing in a smaller window or on maps with tinier notes, something completely irrelevant to tablet users.
We're likely to see more people with touchscreens in the near feature as the technology becomes more widespread and less expensive (and the fact that there will be ipad/tablet versions of osu! eventually). So acting like it's some scary foreign thing needs to die. And because of the increasing tech availability & the fact that people can now have had them long enough to be seasoned with them, we're also probably going to end up with more skilled touchscreen players breaking into the top ranks. If you could accept tablets, you will learn to accept touchscreens too. Calm down.
a post full of wisdom oWoCoriolis wrote:
get a life and stop being mad over a circle clicking game lmao
That's very cocky of you. I believe you didn't completely answer all his statements.NepNep- wrote:
Since jesse just left, I'll be the one trying to reply.No need to mention the accuracy touchscreen players, The people here are annoyed at the 76% 900pp after all. We were never mad at them to begin with apart from people hating touchscreen in general.Grim Rapper wrote:
SapphireGhost and Bonk (despite their inactivity) shows that touchscreen CAN have accuracy, it's the preference that makes it a technical limitation, do you still want to ban them based of their playstyle?
Why I'm seen many complaints saying "BAN CHEATSCREEN" then? Also why in the previous post jesse said that the touchscreen is the issueAssuming his "You do" is not a directed to you, but implying "You do" in a general perspective.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why you're targeting me when I'm targeting about the controversial play? I'm talking about why when the controversial play received so many pp with that glaring accuracy, when comparing to YOUR insane streams play on Native Faith get less pp? or any straining streams play at all?
Jesse is correct and accuracy does punish pp, obviously. But you're right and accuracy does no punish you enough when you get it too low.
Fair EnoughThe people completely blind are flaming the touchscreen players, When it's the pp system being flawed, and touchscreen being vastly different. I can understand people being mad since a playstyle being very different claiming the top play. It isn't about pp, The very fact he was able to fc it 3 times in one hour, is also a reason. It's not just about the pp sytsem being flawed, It's touchscreen being largely different from other playstyles, and that difference is what enrages other players.Grim Rapper wrote:
but let's blame the touchscreen player instead, we know the pp system is FLAWED, but people enjoying it right? and A LOT OF mapper enjoy ABUSING it by making EVERYTHING pp-based so why not, RIGHT?
Why you're questioning the consistency of a player?Grim Rapper wrote:
Still didn't answer anything imo, but it was better than ignorance
Cheers, No hard feelings
My statement in here isn't saying that "hah, you're wrong, try again" but simply saying that "even though your answer imo didn't really answer my question, please don't take this personal. We can agree to disagree"
Streams argument: If streams "can be difficult to aim", why it rewarded less than pure note-to-note jump then? and why Cry Thunder (that objectively the hardest stream jump today imo) only gave 507pp FC with 99.46% acc despite the length being 5:12 minutes? It's the logic of "this is an aim game" that makes the pp system broken in the first place
My Argument is still stands: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting. Unbalance in competitive reason cannot be justified when the factor of the "balance" is consider broken by the majority of the people
Cheers. No Hard Feelings
Please don't make the old No Video mod scores get counted as touchscreen scores :/ currently they are
E m i
It doesn't matter that they can only play a select few maps if the maps they play are considered "overweight" to many players.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why I'm seen many complaints saying "BAN CHEATSCREEN" then? Also why in the previous post jesse said that the touchscreen is the issue
My point is on the touchscreen, and you're questioning that instead?Grim Rapper wrote:
Why you're questioning the consistency of a player?
I used his consistency as a way of solidifying my point more. Despite that, I have other points that don't question his a touchscreen player. Am I expecting your thoughts on the rest?
Well, At least something was cleared up. It sounded pretty rude so I was pretty annoyed. Sorry about that.Grim Rapper wrote:
My statement in here isn't saying that "hah, you're wrong, try again" but simply saying that "even though your answer imo didn't really answer my question, please don't take this personal. We can agree to disagree"
I do admit that part of my statement is flawed, but because you haven't given a counter-argument on the rest of it, The rest still stands.Grim Rapper wrote:
If streams "can be difficult to aim", why it rewarded less than pure note-to-note jump then? and why Cry Thunder (that objectively the hardest stream jump today imo) only gave 507pp FC with 99.46% acc despite the length being 5:12 minutes? It's the logic of "this is an aim game" that makes the pp system broken in the first place
Stating "There are streams" and "You can use Sidekicks" are not valid for me.
The very fact it's a competitive game makes unbalance a major problem. We don't want to get passed by someone using a playstyle that is considered broken to you. The only reason why Peppy is acting is because of the major unrest in the people that are upset.Grim Rapper wrote:
Unbalance in competitive reason cannot be justified when the factor of the "balance" is consider broken by the majority of the people
Now that i'm on my PC, my posts are nice and colorful ~
Mouse players - please ban tablet players, abosolute positioning and lack of movement drift is too big advantage
Tablet players - please ban touchscreen...
sooo, lets roll more
60hz monitor users - pls ban 144hz users, more than twice refresh rate is way too big advantage
rubberdome keyboard users - ban mech keyboard users, it makes game easier
intel HD users - please ban dedicated gpu users since they get way better fps
and go on....
Still, discussion is pretty pointless. Everyone see problem in playstyle but nobody even think WHAT and WHO gave it an advantage.
Yeah, typical crybaby thinking... more like hypocrisy - I will see only one side of medal but other one which is even more dirty doesn't matter to me as much as I can use it for yourself. Stink from one shit but be against another?
@Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/commen ... a_mod_now/
Well fuck, as in every game, crying community always wins over proper digging deep into problem and considering all variables.
GL TS players, you got fucked up, I tried to defend you as someone who also played on TS and know the pain of getting used / input lag problems etc.
Tablet players - please ban touchscreen...
sooo, lets roll more
60hz monitor users - pls ban 144hz users, more than twice refresh rate is way too big advantage
rubberdome keyboard users - ban mech keyboard users, it makes game easier
intel HD users - please ban dedicated gpu users since they get way better fps
and go on....
Still, discussion is pretty pointless. Everyone see problem in playstyle but nobody even think WHAT and WHO gave it an advantage.
Yeah, typical crybaby thinking... more like hypocrisy - I will see only one side of medal but other one which is even more dirty doesn't matter to me as much as I can use it for yourself. Stink from one shit but be against another?
@Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/commen ... a_mod_now/
Well fuck, as in every game, crying community always wins over proper digging deep into problem and considering all variables.
GL TS players, you got fucked up, I tried to defend you as someone who also played on TS and know the pain of getting used / input lag problems etc.