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posted
Don't separate us from the rest of the community based on the abuse of a few maps and playing the same game a different way.
This is all cry about unfortunately. I agree that separating touchscreen players from playerbase would be complete bullshit.

Only thing what could be done is just create another mod, force rule that touchscreen plays needs to be made with it and lower aim value in pp formula for it.
I think there is not even need to force touchscreen rules, as osu! is C# based, it can simply use
        [DllImport("user32.dll")]
public static extern int GetSystemMetrics(int nIndex);

public static bool isTouchEnabled()
{
int MAXTOUCHES_INDEX = 0x95;
int maxTouches = GetSystemMetrics(MAXTOUCHES_INDEX);

return maxTouches > 0;
}
to recognize if device is a touchscreen or not.
posted
Thank you for not reacting to the outrage. The problem is way smaller than it seems.
posted
- technical maps are underrated on std

- no dual screening fl mods on taiko

- no esc pause button on mania

:D
posted
All that needs to be done is separate touchscreen from 1:1 input methods in lazer, the pp system does not need to change to accommodate them right away, although in the future, if the demand for a better system is asked for, you can simply devalue jumps and buff streams compared to the mouse/tablet scores because rewarding the more difficult thing is the way to go. This could create some issues though, like tablet players intentionally using the auto-detection via fucking with their hovering a bit during the start or a break to play streamy maps as 'touchscreen players'... No system is perfect though eh.

It's not a big problem right now yeah but it can become one, the question is do you want to wait for it to become one to do something about it? That'd just alienate more people particularly touchscreen players who bought their expensive hardware to play osu! with everyone else and now feel segregated. Needs to be made clear from the start that this is not a fair way to compete with 99% of the people playing so no one gets the wrong idea, right now even the fact that it's right next to mouse/tablet/kb on your profile as an input method can give newer players the wrong idea. Akin to putting trackpap/trackball/joystick on there but for opposite reasons; people might assume they aren't hot garbage options.

Also Jesse's post is worth reading for anyone who skipped it because it's too long, you can trust my totally unbiased opinion on the matter, ignore my name
posted

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

To amend my previous suggestion, the only part I will agree with the complaints is it being easier to miss more on a long map. The longer a map is the less each miss should hurt the hit objects part of the score. Which would make sense as 4 miss HR score might be considered worse on a short map than the nomod FC but better on a long map. We could change it to some system where each miss is compared against the total number of objects so hitting 99% and missing 1% would give eact same hit objects score every time.
By reducing the impact of a miss based on map length you introduce another issue. A long map with a difficulty spike at the end will be overweighted. 3 or 4 misses will cause only a small pp reduction (say, 15%). At the spike, you could ignore some of the notes to easily hit half the notes and receive only a small penalty.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

Also I don’t understand how “Accuracy is more important on long maps” regardless of map length it’s 300k Score.

(Basically I am suggesting Taikos score system but with more emphasis on # of misses than Taiko does currently, yes long maps you’ll get more misses on but the length bonus negates them. In fact most of the high PP scores in Taiko are on longer maps. TV size maps only really exist at the lower levels)
Yeah I worded this badly. What I meant to say is that the length of the map doesn't really change the difficulty to get those 300k acc points, while it does change the difficulty to get the 700k combo points.

[Taiga] wrote:

We are talking about present, not the future. I doubt in next few years 1-10ms input lag instead of ~50-100ms like now will be available for customer for decent amount of money which will not be considered waste.
The technology will eventually come though, maybe not next year but in 5-10 years it'll definitely be there. The fact that it probably won't be affordable for most people just makes the touchscreen problem even worse because only rich people will be able to abuse touchscreen pp.

[Taiga] wrote:

If you didn't notice, I have 779 hours in std and it gives me right to actually speak about it. Cut your childish "you can fuck right off" already, it is amusing in this civilized discussion.
Let me explain something:
Yes, I don't see the problem. If I was 4-digit, I would still not see the problem, same comes to 3-digit, 2-digit, 1-digit. I simply don't really care. If right now someone could develop device which would make CTB way easier than it is now and gain massive amount of pp by it - idc either. Mainly because touchscreen is good at ONE type of maps.
Do you see huge scores on stream maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see any scores on pure tech maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see huge scores on marathon maps with touchscreen? No!
So where is the problem? That touchscreen is way better at jump maps? Well.... happens, there will be always pros and cons of each playstyle.
Tablet allows you to use Tap+X playstyle which if properly used enable you to achieve extreme speeds which is impossible only for keyboard (or more like barely possible).
And so on....
No one cares how many hours you've played. You said yourself that you don't care, so why are you here caring? I care. You clearly care. It's fine to care. I was more pointing out that it's ridiculous that you would even try to argue your point if you don't care. But if you truly don't care, then I don't understand why you're here? Why does your opinion matter if you don't agree with it enough to actually care about it?

You're basically saying that touchscreen is cheating, but only on aim maps, so it's okay. That's absurd. Let's try a different, but similar argument. Auto clicking macros are cheating, but only in streamy maps, so it's okay. Clicking macros make key inputs none 1:1 but you still have to click accurately which makes them essentially as advantageous as touchscreen, which despite not being 1:1, have to aim properly. Why is one cheating and one isn't?

Tap X is completely different because it's still a 1:1 input method. 1 tap, 1 key press. Even if It's "easier" to spam fast, tapx is irrelevant for this discussion because it is 1:1.

[Taiga] wrote:

Not old "it's just da maps" but actual PARTIAL ISSUE. Over end of 2016 and 2017, there was ranked way more short high star maps than anytime before which created clear opportunity for touchscreen players to shine. If you followed GnR, there is a topic created 2 years ago by _Meep_ which list playable touchscreen maps (ref. t/401384&start=0). There isn't many.
But - as I said, this amount drastically increased over last year (where actually topic is not updated by obvious reason).

You want argument why short maps are meta? Here are numbers. Searching criteria - Length = 60s and lower, Minimum difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 39 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 35 maps
2015 - 19 maps
2014 - 10 maps
2013 - 3 maps
2012 and down - not found or single maps.

I will not count maps below 2 min which are considered as TV-size once because numbers will be similar for each year. From other way:
Length = above 180s (3 min, full size), Minimal star difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 249 maps (year not finished yet)
2016 - 271 maps
2015 - 283 maps
2014 - 141 maps
2013 - 99 maps

Length = between 60 and 180 seconds, minimal diff = 4,5*
2017 - 379 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 430 maps
2015 - 418 maps
2014 - 270 maps
2013 - 194 maps

As you can see, just in 2016/2017 mappers made over twice as much maps below 60s which in majority are perfect for touchscreen players than in other years together. From other way, tendency to create full size and marathon maps is lowering from 2015. Numbers are taken from osusearch.com so this is only view type statistics (I take into consideration that this portal may not see something / bug / whatever).
Opinion about "short maps are meta now" is still valid considering rising amount of mappers and ranked maps each year. Most new mappers tend to focus on easy patterns (mainly jumps) and short maps.

I don't know from where you took 10/90% ratio. To do "abuse worthy" statistic, you need to start from ceretain point which isn't 11 mil. registered accounts but around 150-100k active players in the ranking. At that point, this ratio looks completely different.
Did you read my post? Let me quote myself:

jesse1412 wrote:

#1. Cookiezi - Top ranks don't consist of TV size maps (highest ranked player in the game doesn't do it, but it's apparently the problem). Doesn't rely on short maps.
#2. Rafis - 3 out of his top 20 scores are < 1 min 30 secs. 7 are longer than 4 minutes. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#3. Vaxei - Plays longer, VERY intense aim maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#4. filsdelama - Plays mostly long dt aim maps, with a large amount of dthdhr scores. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#5. firebat92 - Basically the same kind of player as rafis. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#6. hvick225 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#7. _RyuK - Arguably abuses short maps.
#8. Emilia - Plays extreme jump maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#9. Mathi - Variety player, does a bit of everything. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#10. Rohulk - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#11. Piggey - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#12. Spare - Plays a mix of dt and nomod. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#13. Bubbleman - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#14. Dustice - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#15. mcy3 - Hands down abuses short maps.
#16. idke - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#17. Happystick - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#18. Yaong - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#19. bro_gamer72 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#20. index - Doesn't rely on short maps.

1 of those players clearly abuses short maps. 1 player heavily uses them. At best that's 1/10.

I could keep going, but the trend is the same. Your imaginary problem doesn't exist. Stop making up COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Why do I have to spend my time checking all these players because you've made up an argument that's impossible to refute without wasting time checking? 80%? I'd guess closer to 10%, at which point, is it really abusing? If short maps were SO overrated then why in the world aren't top players relying on them?
How can you argue that short maps are the meta when I went through and checked the top ranks of each player in the top 20 and found the opposite? Not only do you say that my findings are wrong, you also go as far as to say that the opposite is true, yet again without providing any evidence; presumably because none exists. The 10% statistic comes from me looking at the top 20 players and finding that 2 of them seem to play a disproportionate amount of short aim maps.

We can use your own metrics to show the issue too, but I must stress that the amount of short aim maps doesn't demonstrate the current pp meta. There may be more maps, but that doesn't mean people are getting a larger proportion of their pp from said maps. A "short" map is generally a map <90 seconds long. The difficulty of those maps are usually about 4*+, that's around the difficulty of entry level farm maps.

Length <= 60, stars > 4:
2011 - 120
2012 - 155 (29% increase)
2013 -159 (3% increase)
2014 - 250 (57% increase)
2015 - 371 (48% increase)
2016 - 351 (5% decrease)
2017 - 332 (n/a, year isn't finished)

Length > 60, stars > 4:
2011 - 572
2012 - 664 (16% increase)
2013 - 592 (11% decrease)
2014 - 723 (31% increase)
2015 - 1154 (49% increase)
2016 - 1182 (2% increase)
2017 - 1110 (n/a, year isn't finished)

As you can see, the amount of short vs not short maps getting ranked grow at a similar rate. The only years where shorter maps grew faster than longer maps were 2012 and 2014. 2012 happened before ppv2 was even a thing, so we can ignore that. Of the 4 years since pp became a thing, short maps have only increased in number significantly by a larger percent than long maps during 2014. With that in mind, how can you argue that this is an issue stemming from the fact that modern maps are shorter? Modern maps clearly aren't generally shorter. 2014 was 3 (almost 4) years ago, if the problem was due to short pp maps, why has this only just become a major issue? Why have short maps only started impacting the game now? Those are both rhetorical question, there's no logical answer that agrees with your points.

Let me ask another question. What has changed very recently that has thrown the pp system into disarray? Touchscreens. Touchscreens only became a "common" peripheral in the last 2 years, and since then, with only ~2 years of practice, touchscreen players have achieved the highest rated play in the game. If short, aim intense maps were the issue, tablet/mouse players would have already attained a 900pp score on the same map, but they can't because they use a 1:1 input method.

[Taiga] wrote:

Ranking isn't something where places are capped at certain point to achieve them. There will be always top 100. Only amount of points to achieve it will change. What people call a touchscreen problem is not really at the top where I guess only one or two players can compete but in mid-ranking range where more people play it and can abuse actuall mapping to gain way more pp easier, where "easier" doesn't mean that every single one of them will actually achieve top100 that fast as others (ref. valid proof of each player progressing of its own natural speed).

Please read with understanding - I didn't said OTP are not competitive.
Before "big boom" for short maps with simple jump style patterns and non-existant or rare bursts, OTP were punished for not being efficient in all skillsets.
Right now, OTP are in good position to rank up without much problems.
So, competition should be made in correct rules - to achieve high rank before, you had to be efficient in all skillsets.
Right now you just need to have aim, nothing else.
You call that competitive ranking?
Sorry, I disagree.
The issue isn't at the top... YET. It will be eventually though. 800pp plays were proven trivial for the current top touchscreen player, as shown by him setting multiple 800+ pp scores in a row (on a single map). The reason there aren't as many top100 touchscreen players is because there are far less touchscreen players, plus touchscreen players have had less time to train with their peripherals. Touchscreen players are competing with people who have played osu! for 5+ years with their preferred input device, and they're getting higher pp scores already.

Let's assume you're objectively correct and that it shouldn't be possible to rank up by only being skilled in one area. What's your solution to the issue? Make pp fit around rewarding balanced maps?

Stream maps -> low pp.
Jump maps -> low pp.
Acc maps -> low pp.
Balanced maps -> full pp.

FC ascension to heaven doubletime? Nah, unbalanced score, 200pp for you. FC red like roses DT? Nah, unbalanced score, 200pp for you. FC santa san hdhr? Woah that map has streams and jumps and high od, 400pp for you. Clearly this isn't going to work. What's the other solution to the issue? Unrank and outlaw all maps that don't have 1/4 and are less than 60 seconds, even if the song doesn't contain 1/4 and is < 60 seconds? Ridiculous.

You're using short, aim intensive maps as a scapegoat. People in in the past COULD rank up using only 1 skillset. I was top200 using ONLY stream scores when tp was released. I'll say it one last time, the problem isn't aim, or recent maps. It's touchscreen.
posted
q
posted
Touchscreen is the original way to play std (Ouendan & EBA) and yet unfair wow I'm shocked
posted

jesse1412 wrote:

#1. Cookiezi - Top ranks don't consist of TV size maps (highest ranked player in the game doesn't do it, but it's apparently the problem). Doesn't rely on short maps.
#2. Rafis - 3 out of his top 20 scores are < 1 min 30 secs. 7 are longer than 4 minutes. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#3. Vaxei - Plays longer, VERY intense aim maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#4. filsdelama - Plays mostly long dt aim maps, with a large amount of dthdhr scores. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#5. firebat92 - Basically the same kind of player as rafis. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#6. hvick225 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#7. _RyuK - Arguably abuses short maps.
#8. Emilia - Plays extreme jump maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#9. Mathi - Variety player, does a bit of everything. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#10. Rohulk - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#11. Piggey - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#12. Spare - Plays a mix of dt and nomod. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#13. Bubbleman - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#14. Dustice - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#15. mcy3 - Hands down abuses short maps.
#16. idke - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#17. Happystick - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#18. Yaong - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#19. bro_gamer72 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#20. index - Doesn't rely on short maps.
Looking at the top 10 best performance:
# of map with ≤ 1 min drain time
# of map with ≥ 3 min drain time
# of map with DT

#1. Cookiezi - 2, 7, 5
#2. Rafis - 2, 2, 10
#3. Vaxei - 4, 2, 10
#4. filsdelama - 4, 2, 10
#5. firebat92 - 6, 0, 10
#6. hvick225 - 1, 2, 10
#7. _RyuK - 6, 1, 10
#8. Emilia - 8, 0, 9
#9. Mathi - 3, 3, 7
#10. Rohulk - 0, 9
#11. Piggey - 1, 3, 10
#12. Spare - 5, 3, 8
#13. Bubbleman - 6, 2, 10
#14. Dustice - 0, 6, 4
#15. mcy3 - 10, 0, 10
#16. idke - 0, 10
#17. Happystick - 1, 5, 5
#18. Yaong - 0, 10
#19. bro_gamer72 - 2, 4, 8
#20. _index - 1, 6, 7

Average: 31%, 39%, 67%
Average without Rohulk, Dustice, idke and Yaong: 39%, 26%, 87%
posted
Touchscreen is not a different mode for me, so this does not deserve a different score table by map, imho.
If complains are about how many pp this got, I think that a different way to create ranking boards is necessary. In this order, I supports MariahCarey's (aka, Voli's) suggestion.

regards!
posted

jesse1412 wrote:

I could keep going, but the trend is the same. Your imaginary problem doesn't exist. Stop making up COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Why do I have to spend my time checking all these players because you've made up an argument that's impossible to refute without wasting time checking? 80%? I'd guess closer to 10%, at which point, is it really abusing? If short maps were SO overrated then why in the world aren't top players relying on them?
yea after your responses I assume you dont really like me personally so you literally checking each thing I say.

What I meant there

hi-mei wrote:

80% of top 50 are DT tv-size maps abusers.
Is that 80% of players in top 50 has their pp earned mostly on short jumpy maps.

But yea, please dont reply on that, after all the shit you threw on me I honestly have 0 will to discuss with you anymore.

Go ahead and live in your delusional world where Performance Points arent broken and mapping meta is in a normal state.

But before I send you to blocklist, let me summarize the top scores on top 50 players (currently).

i'll include here only top 50 scores of top 50 players on TV size maps that has 2 and less min drain time (without DT), but was played with DT. Scores with drain time over 2:25s (My dearest) arent included here (like remote control, best friends full ver. etc).

1. Cookiezi
Kanae Asaba - Endless Starlight ~Inochi no Kirameki~ (OP ver.) [Challenger] +HD,DT (100.00%)
Chitose Sara - Merry Merry Go Round [Extra] +HD,DT (99.22%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Ultimate] +HD,DT (96.50%)
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [Skystar's Extra] +HD,DT (93.87%)
Hagumi Nishizawa - My Hero! Up to you! [My Hero!] +HD,DT (97.67%)
S3RL feat Mixie Moon - FriendZoned [Slayed's Extreme] +HD,DT (99.75%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (97.61%)
Horie Yui - Asymmetry [Flourite's Kiss] +HD,DT (99.62%)

8/50 = 16% (or 0.16 multiplier)

2. Rafis
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Taki] +HD,HR,DT (98.43%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Happy~!] +HD,DT (99.50%)
ClariS - Hitorigoto -TV MIX- [Soliloquy] +HD,HR,DT (99.41%)
*Namirin - Yasashisa no Riyuu [Happiness] +HD,DT (99.68%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS [Insane] +HD,HR,DT (99.06%)
ayase rie - yuima-ru*world [Extra] +HD,DT (99.40%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Extra] +HD,HR,DT (99.25%)
Nanamori-chu*Gorakubu - Acchu~ma Seishun! [Fycho's Seishun] +HD,DT (98.93%)
Agnete Kjolsrud - Get Jinxed [Master] +HD,DT (99.56%
Duca - Jewel Days [Illumination] +HD,DT (99.73%)
fhana - Kimi to Iu Tokuiten [singular you] [Melancholy] +HD,DT (99.56%)
RADWIMPS - Zen Zen Zense (movie ver.) [Extra: Taki] +HD,DT (99.86%)
Little Glee Monster - Dakara, Hitori ja Nai -TV Size- [Sotarks' Plus Ultra] +HD,DT (98.82%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (98.98%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Settia's Extra] +HD,DT (98.77%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [Revenge] +HD,DT (99.43%)
Tapimiru - Hakkensha wa Watashi (Anime Size) [Kencho's Grimoire] +HD,DT (99.66%)
Ni-Sokkususu - Blade Dance [Kneesocks] +HD,DT (97.44%)
Tamura Yukari - MERRY MERRY MERRY MENU... Ne! [Little's Extra] +HD,DT (98.83%)
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Mitsuha] +HD,HR,DT (97.99%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [StarR-kun's Revenge] +HD,DT (99.27%)
RADWIMPS - Zen Zen Zense (movie ver.) [Extra: Mitsuha] +HD,DT (99.57%)
TrySail & TRUE - High Free Spirits vs. DREAM SOLISTER [Pentarks' Extra] +HD,DT (99.39%)
Suzuki Konomi - Redo [Extra] +HD,DT (99.24%)
Machico - fantastic dreamer [Blessing] +HD,DT (99.50%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS -TV Size- [Fycho's Insane] +HD,HR,DT (99.15%)
CINDERELLA PROJECT - M@GIC* [M@gic] +HD,DT (98.52%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Dan Dan] +HD,DT (99.08%)

29/50 = 58% (or 0.58)

3. Vaxei
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [Skystar's Extra] +HD,DT (98.82%)
HO-KAGO TEA TIME - Kira Kira Days [Shiawase!!] +HD,DT (98.03%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Happy~!] +HD,DT (99.12%)
Aqours - Aozora Jumping Heart [hvick225's Extra] +HD,DT (98.73%)
Kanon Wakeshima - Tsukinami [Fragile] +HD,DT (98.71%)
Hiromi Sato - Jiyuu no Hane [A Feather] +HD,DT (99.68%
TRUE - Soundscape [StarR's Euphonious] +HD,DT (97.85%)
Nanamori-chu*Gorakubu - Acchu~ma Seishun! [Fycho's Seishun] +HD,DT (98.35%)
Agnete Kjolsrud - Get Jinxed [Master] +HD,DT (99.04%)
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [StarR's Extra] +HD,DT (97.74%)
Tia - The Glory Days [Glory] +HD,DT (99.02%)
*namirin - Koi no Hime Hime Pettanko [Taeyang's Ultra Princess] +HD,DT (98.93%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS [Insane] +HD,HR,DT (97.80%)
ClariS - Hitorigoto -TV MIX- [Soliloquy] +HD,HR,DT (97.65%)
supercell - My Dearest (TV Edit) [Guilt] +HD,HR,DT (96.23%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Extra] +HD,HR,DT (97.00%)
Ni-Sokkususu - Blade Dance [Kneesocks] +HD,DT (97.36%)
Izumi Akazawa (CV. Madoka Yonezawa) - Responsibility Response [Slayed's Answer] +HD,DT (98.08%)
Tamura Yukari - MERRY MERRY MERRY MENU... Ne! [Little's Extra] +HD,DT (97.57%)
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Taki] +HD,HR,DT (97.64%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Dan Dan] +HD,DT (99.34%)
Kanae Asaba - Endless Starlight ~Inochi no Kirameki~ (OP ver.) [Challenger] +HD,DT (97.52%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Ultimate] +HD,DT (97.17%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Settia's Extra] +HD,DT (97.49%)
Reol - MONSTER [DARKNESS] +HD,DT (98.52%)
Drop - Granat [Expert] +HD,HR,DT (94.54%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Slayed's Extra] +HD,DT (99.36%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [StarR-kun's Revenge] +HD,DT (99.27%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [Revenge] +HD,DT (98.28%)
FLOWxGRANRODEO - 7 -seven- -TV SIZE - [Expert] +HD,HR,DT (94.42%)
Royal Blood - Loose Change [$] +HD,DT (98.46%)
Azusa Tadokoro - Junshin Always [Extra] +HD,DT (96.60%)
Azusa Tadokoro - Junshin Always [Colorful] +HD,DT (97.26%)
3 Nen E Gumi Utatan (Nagisa & Kayano & Karuma & Isogai & Maehara) - Bye Bye YESTERDAY [Taeyang's Good Good Time] +HD,DT (99.55%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (98.55%)

35/50 = 70% (0.7)

Doesn't rely on short maps.(c) jesse



Im lazy to copy past and gonna just post the result multiplier from now on:

4. filsdelama
28/50 = 56% (0.56)

5. firebat92

32/50 = 64% (0.64)

6. osu player84

44/50 = 88% (0.88)

7. hvick225

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

8. RyuK

36/50 = 72% (0.72)

9. Emilia

40/50 = 80% (0.8)

Doesn't rely on short maps.(c) jesse

10. Mathi

22/50 = 44% (0.44)

11. Rohulk

1/50 = 2% (0.02)

12. Piggey

32/50 = 64% (0.64)

13. Spare

25/50 = 50% (0.5) I honestly lost my count here so it might be a bit different, +/- 1/2

14. Bubbleman

19/50 = 38% (0.38)

15. Dustice

7/50 = 14% (0.14)

16. mcy3

45/50 = 90% (0.9)

17. DanyL

32/50 = 62% (0.62)

18. idke

0/50 = 0% (0x)

Hands down, much respect to idke.

19. Happystick

9/50 = 18% (0.18)

20. Yaong

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

21. bro_gamer72

25/50 = 50% (0.5)

22. _index

20/50 = 40% (0.4)

23. Totoki

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

24. kablaze

0/50 = 0% (0)

Hands down, wp.

25. talala

26/50 = 62% (0.62)

26. WWW

1/50 = 2% (0.02)

27. Aireu

19/50 = 38% (0.38)

28. Adamqs

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

29. Toy

13/50 = 26% (0.26)

tho we all know he is not about DT at all

30. Monko2k

24/50 = 48% (0.48)

31. CXu

8/50 = 16% (0.16)

32. Arnold24x24

36/50 = 72% (0.72)

33. Wilchq

0/50 = 0% (0)

much respect

34. Musty

7/50 = 14% (0.14)

35. uyghti

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

36. Sanze

23/50 = 56% (0.56)

37. Mizuru

28/50 = 66% (0.66)

38. freedomdiver

Ok this one doesnt count, gonna get #51 here instead.

39. Astar

30/50 = 60% (0.6)

40. Resia

43/50 = 86% (0.86)

41. Recia

14/50 = 28% (0.28)

42. Karthy

16/50 = 32% (0.32)

43. MrBoom

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

44. Bango

38/50 = 76% (0.76)

45. Zirba

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

46. fieryrage

31/50 = 62% (0.62)

47. MouseEasy

39/50 = 78% (0.78)

48. obtio

45/50 = 90% (0.9) holy shit

49. Dunois

17/50 = 34% (0.34)

50. Mlaw22

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

51. Dunii

37/50 = 74% (0.74)


The data got obtained by myself manually, so I might be mistaken in few places by +/- 0.1-0.2 value. I didnt take freedomdiver by obvious reasons, instead I counted #51 - Dunii

So the current average of short DT jumpy map per player's top 50 score in current top 50 players is:

combined multiplier (22.76) / amount of players (50) = 0.4552
or 45,52% of current PP earnings of top 50 players are short jumpy DT maps with 2 and less mins of draintime without DT.

Oh, if we remove these who dont play short DT maps at all

- idke (0)
- Kablaze (0)
- Wilchq (0)
- Rohulk (1 top DT score)
- Yaong (2)
- WWW (2)
- Adamqs (2)
- MrBooM (2)
- Mlaw22 (2)

We gonna get the following: 0.5392 which is 0.54% of PP of top ranked players who plays fasts maps is earned on short jumpy DT maps.


Dont forget, that there are also Nomod / HDHR mods are still available, that means, that, lets say, we got 3 type of players right now

- nomod
- hr (hdhr)
- dt (hddt)

The pure HD and FL players are rare for now, so lets stick with these 3.

So in perfect case scenario, the distribution should be like 33/33/34

instead, we got something around 50% of PP literally earned from abusing one mod on specific kind of maps.

Oh yea, I think I said that there are 80% people who abuses it in top 50 rank?

lets see.. In my opinion, the abuse of DT is when you surpasing that 33% from above, or to be completely fair lets take 40%.

so, from the data earned above, there are 30 players that surpassed these values, which is 60%.

Okay, my bad!

I wonder what would happen if I counted Remote control, Caffeine Driver and other 2:30+ min DT sutff. I truly believe we would get these 80% easily.


However, coming back to our convo, I honestly cant take you seriously anymore, especially after you said

And I'll say it again. If you have a 20 star 20 second map and someone fc's it, you'd have to be braindead to argue that it should be worth less than 900pp; thus 20 second maps CAN give 900pp.
Which is completely stupid, since if you wanna FC 20 sec 20 star map, all you will do is memorizing the muscle movement, which is basically turning the game into some physical memorization challenge, rather than video-game.

Which actually happened in our case, he didnt play the game properly, he abused the flaw of the map with third party device. In this case we should blame both - the map and the TS.
posted

hi-mei wrote:

yea after your responses I assume you dont really like me personally so you literally checking each thing I say.

What I meant there

hi-mei wrote:

80% of top 50 are DT tv-size maps abusers.
Is that 80% of players in top 50 has their pp earned mostly on short jumpy maps.

But yea, please dont reply on that, after all the shit you threw on me I honestly have 0 will to discuss with you anymore.

Go ahead and live in your delusional world where Performance Points arent broken and mapping meta is in a normal state.
It's nothing about you personally. If you check, I've actually responded to every single post in the this thread that argues in favor of touchscreen. The reason I pick at everything people say is because anecdotal evidence isn't relevant to discussion. There have been many "meme" phases of pp. We went through the idea that dt is overweighted, accuracy is overweighted, accuracy is underweighted, speed is underweighted, short maps are overweighted, and long maps are overweighted over the last few years. Currently, because freedomdiver happens to have set his score on a short map, people are wanking over short maps being overweighted even though that's irrelevant as longer maps won't solve the issue of touchscreen.

I knew exactly what your post meant however 80% of players in the top 50 do not gain the majority of their pp from short jumpy maps. You've even shown that below.

Why would I not reply when there are things to discuss? I disagree with you, therefore I shall post why.

Performance points aren't broken. Higher ranked players are most of the time better than lower ranked players. That chance of that being subjectively correct increases as the difference between ranks increase. Recognizing which players are better is the sole objective of a ranking system, pp achieves that to quite an effective degree, therefore pp is not broken. I'm not arguing that pp is perfect, I agree that is underweights some times (high speed streams or technical maps), but it's not broken.

Mapping meta is in a "normal state". The ratio of short to long maps is quite close to the same as in years past.

hi-mei wrote:

But before I send you to blocklist, let me summarize the top scores on top 50 players (currently).

i'll include here only top 50 scores of top 50 players on TV size maps that has 2 and less min drain time (without DT), but was played with DT. Scores with drain time over 2:25s (My dearest) arent included here (like remote control, best friends full ver. etc).

1. Cookiezi
Kanae Asaba - Endless Starlight ~Inochi no Kirameki~ (OP ver.) [Challenger] +HD,DT (100.00%)
Chitose Sara - Merry Merry Go Round [Extra] +HD,DT (99.22%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Ultimate] +HD,DT (96.50%)
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [Skystar's Extra] +HD,DT (93.87%)
Hagumi Nishizawa - My Hero! Up to you! [My Hero!] +HD,DT (97.67%)
S3RL feat Mixie Moon - FriendZoned [Slayed's Extreme] +HD,DT (99.75%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (97.61%)
Horie Yui - Asymmetry [Flourite's Kiss] +HD,DT (99.62%)

8/50 = 16% (or 0.16 multiplier)

2. Rafis
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Taki] +HD,HR,DT (98.43%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Happy~!] +HD,DT (99.50%)
ClariS - Hitorigoto -TV MIX- [Soliloquy] +HD,HR,DT (99.41%)
*Namirin - Yasashisa no Riyuu [Happiness] +HD,DT (99.68%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS [Insane] +HD,HR,DT (99.06%)
ayase rie - yuima-ru*world [Extra] +HD,DT (99.40%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Extra] +HD,HR,DT (99.25%)
Nanamori-chu*Gorakubu - Acchu~ma Seishun! [Fycho's Seishun] +HD,DT (98.93%)
Agnete Kjolsrud - Get Jinxed [Master] +HD,DT (99.56%
Duca - Jewel Days [Illumination] +HD,DT (99.73%)
fhana - Kimi to Iu Tokuiten [singular you] [Melancholy] +HD,DT (99.56%)
RADWIMPS - Zen Zen Zense (movie ver.) [Extra: Taki] +HD,DT (99.86%)
Little Glee Monster - Dakara, Hitori ja Nai -TV Size- [Sotarks' Plus Ultra] +HD,DT (98.82%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (98.98%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Settia's Extra] +HD,DT (98.77%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [Revenge] +HD,DT (99.43%)
Tapimiru - Hakkensha wa Watashi (Anime Size) [Kencho's Grimoire] +HD,DT (99.66%)
Ni-Sokkususu - Blade Dance [Kneesocks] +HD,DT (97.44%)
Tamura Yukari - MERRY MERRY MERRY MENU... Ne! [Little's Extra] +HD,DT (98.83%)
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Mitsuha] +HD,HR,DT (97.99%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [StarR-kun's Revenge] +HD,DT (99.27%)
RADWIMPS - Zen Zen Zense (movie ver.) [Extra: Mitsuha] +HD,DT (99.57%)
TrySail & TRUE - High Free Spirits vs. DREAM SOLISTER [Pentarks' Extra] +HD,DT (99.39%)
Suzuki Konomi - Redo [Extra] +HD,DT (99.24%)
Machico - fantastic dreamer [Blessing] +HD,DT (99.50%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS -TV Size- [Fycho's Insane] +HD,HR,DT (99.15%)
CINDERELLA PROJECT - M@GIC* [M@gic] +HD,DT (98.52%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Dan Dan] +HD,DT (99.08%)

29/50 = 58% (or 0.58)

3. Vaxei
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [Skystar's Extra] +HD,DT (98.82%)
HO-KAGO TEA TIME - Kira Kira Days [Shiawase!!] +HD,DT (98.03%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Happy~!] +HD,DT (99.12%)
Aqours - Aozora Jumping Heart [hvick225's Extra] +HD,DT (98.73%)
Kanon Wakeshima - Tsukinami [Fragile] +HD,DT (98.71%)
Hiromi Sato - Jiyuu no Hane [A Feather] +HD,DT (99.68%
TRUE - Soundscape [StarR's Euphonious] +HD,DT (97.85%)
Nanamori-chu*Gorakubu - Acchu~ma Seishun! [Fycho's Seishun] +HD,DT (98.35%)
Agnete Kjolsrud - Get Jinxed [Master] +HD,DT (99.04%)
TrySail - High Free Spirits -TV.Ver- [StarR's Extra] +HD,DT (97.74%)
Tia - The Glory Days [Glory] +HD,DT (99.02%)
*namirin - Koi no Hime Hime Pettanko [Taeyang's Ultra Princess] +HD,DT (98.93%)
Fujijo Seitokai Shikkou-bu - Best FriendS [Insane] +HD,HR,DT (97.80%)
ClariS - Hitorigoto -TV MIX- [Soliloquy] +HD,HR,DT (97.65%)
supercell - My Dearest (TV Edit) [Guilt] +HD,HR,DT (96.23%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Extra] +HD,HR,DT (97.00%)
Ni-Sokkususu - Blade Dance [Kneesocks] +HD,DT (97.36%)
Izumi Akazawa (CV. Madoka Yonezawa) - Responsibility Response [Slayed's Answer] +HD,DT (98.08%)
Tamura Yukari - MERRY MERRY MERRY MENU... Ne! [Little's Extra] +HD,DT (97.57%)
RADWIMPS - Yume Tourou [Extra: Taki] +HD,HR,DT (97.64%)
Chino(CV.Minase Inori) - Shinsaku no Shiawase wa Kochira! [Dan Dan] +HD,DT (99.34%)
Kanae Asaba - Endless Starlight ~Inochi no Kirameki~ (OP ver.) [Challenger] +HD,DT (97.52%)
Ayase Rie - Yuima-ru*World TVver. [Ultimate] +HD,DT (97.17%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Settia's Extra] +HD,DT (97.49%)
Reol - MONSTER [DARKNESS] +HD,DT (98.52%)
Drop - Granat [Expert] +HD,HR,DT (94.54%)
TRUE - Soundscape [Slayed's Extra] +HD,DT (99.36%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [StarR-kun's Revenge] +HD,DT (99.27%)
Ayaka Ohashi - Wagamama MIRROR HEART [Revenge] +HD,DT (98.28%)
FLOWxGRANRODEO - 7 -seven- -TV SIZE - [Expert] +HD,HR,DT (94.42%)
Royal Blood - Loose Change [$] +HD,DT (98.46%)
Azusa Tadokoro - Junshin Always [Extra] +HD,DT (96.60%)
Azusa Tadokoro - Junshin Always [Colorful] +HD,DT (97.26%)
3 Nen E Gumi Utatan (Nagisa & Kayano & Karuma & Isogai & Maehara) - Bye Bye YESTERDAY [Taeyang's Good Good Time] +HD,DT (99.55%)
Kano - Stella-rium [Pleiades] +HD,DT (98.55%)

35/50 = 70% (0.7)

Doesn't rely on short maps.(c) jesse



Im lazy to copy past and gonna just post the result multiplier from now on:

4. filsdelama
28/50 = 56% (0.56)

5. firebat92

32/50 = 64% (0.64)

6. osu player84

44/50 = 88% (0.88)

7. hvick225

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

8. RyuK

36/50 = 72% (0.72)

9. Emilia

40/50 = 80% (0.8)

Doesn't rely on short maps.(c) jesse

10. Mathi

22/50 = 44% (0.44)

11. Rohulk

1/50 = 2% (0.02)

12. Piggey

32/50 = 64% (0.64)

13. Spare

25/50 = 50% (0.5) I honestly lost my count here so it might be a bit different, +/- 1/2

14. Bubbleman

19/50 = 38% (0.38)

15. Dustice

7/50 = 14% (0.14)

16. mcy3

45/50 = 90% (0.9)

17. DanyL

32/50 = 62% (0.62)

18. idke

0/50 = 0% (0x)

Hands down, much respect to idke.

19. Happystick

9/50 = 18% (0.18)

20. Yaong

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

21. bro_gamer72

25/50 = 50% (0.5)

22. _index

20/50 = 40% (0.4)

23. Totoki

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

24. kablaze

0/50 = 0% (0)

Hands down, wp.

25. talala

26/50 = 62% (0.62)

26. WWW

1/50 = 2% (0.02)

27. Aireu

19/50 = 38% (0.38)

28. Adamqs

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

29. Toy

13/50 = 26% (0.26)

tho we all know he is not about DT at all

30. Monko2k

24/50 = 48% (0.48)

31. CXu

8/50 = 16% (0.16)

32. Arnold24x24

36/50 = 72% (0.72)

33. Wilchq

0/50 = 0% (0)

much respect

34. Musty

7/50 = 14% (0.14)

35. uyghti

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

36. Sanze

23/50 = 56% (0.56)

37. Mizuru

28/50 = 66% (0.66)

38. freedomdiver

Ok this one doesnt count, gonna get #51 here instead.

39. Astar

30/50 = 60% (0.6)

40. Resia

43/50 = 86% (0.86)

41. Recia

14/50 = 28% (0.28)

42. Karthy

16/50 = 32% (0.32)

43. MrBoom

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

44. Bango

38/50 = 76% (0.76)

45. Zirba

33/50 = 66% (0.66)

46. fieryrage

31/50 = 62% (0.62)

47. MouseEasy

39/50 = 78% (0.78)

48. obtio

45/50 = 90% (0.9) holy shit

49. Dunois

17/50 = 34% (0.34)

50. Mlaw22

2/50 = 4% (0.04)

51. Dunii

37/50 = 74% (0.74)


The data got obtained by myself manually, so I might be mistaken in few places by +/- 0.1-0.2 value. I didnt take freedomdiver by obvious reasons, instead I counted #51 - Dunii

So the current average of short DT jumpy map per player's top 50 score in current top 50 players is:

combined multiplier (22.76) / amount of players (50) = 0.4552
or 45,52% of current PP earnings of top 50 players are short jumpy DT maps with 2 and less mins of draintime without DT.
Now this is the kind of stuff I want to see in a debate. I appreciate that you took the time to do this. I apologize for incorrectly labeling emilia and osu player84. My mistake.

I would say that a "short" map would have a drain time of <= 1:30 (after applying DT/HT), so 2 minutes is about correct pre-dt. It appears that we were both grossly wrong with our initial estimates then. At this point it becomes a subjective discussion as to whether 45.52% is an overly significant amount of pp. I agree that that is a high proportion of overall pp, but it is still the minority of pp. The majority of pp is gained on maps of nomod length > 2 minutes. In my own opinion, this shows that short maps can't possibly be exceedingly overrated, otherwise the majority of pp would come from those maps. There's no objective answer available though.

hi-mei wrote:

Oh, if we remove these who dont play short DT maps at all

- idke (0)
- Kablaze (0)
- Wilchq (0)
- Rohulk (1 top DT score)
- Yaong (2)
- WWW (2)
- Adamqs (2)
- MrBooM (2)
- Mlaw22 (2)

We gonna get the following: 0.5392 which is 0.54% of PP of top ranked players who plays fasts maps is earned on short jumpy DT maps.
I don't really understand how removing the players who don't play short maps helps either of our points.


hi-mei wrote:

Dont forget, that there are also Nomod / HDHR mods are still available, that means, that, lets say, we got 3 type of players right now

- nomod
- hr (hdhr)
- dt (hddt)

The pure HD and FL players are rare for now, so lets stick with these 3.

So in perfect case scenario, the distribution should be like 33/33/34

instead, we got something around 50% of PP literally earned from abusing one mod on specific kind of maps.

Oh yea, I think I said that there are 80% people who abuses it in top 50 rank?

lets see.. In my opinion, the abuse of DT is when you surpasing that 33% from above, or to be completely fair lets take 40%.

so, from the data earned above, there are 30 players that surpassed these values, which is 60%.

Okay, my bad!
I'd like to see the percentage of players who play hr vs nomod vs doubletime before we try to argue that the distribution of pp should be evenly split between those subsets of players. I'd expect that there are more DT players in general. I'll take a look when I get more time.

hi-mei wrote:

I wonder what would happen if I counted Remote control, Caffeine Driver and other 2:30+ min DT sutff. I truly believe we would get these 80% easily.
If you counted maps that aren't short as maps that are short, I'm sure you would too.


hi-mei wrote:

However, coming back to our convo, I honestly cant take you seriously anymore, especially after you said

And I'll say it again. If you have a 20 star 20 second map and someone fc's it, you'd have to be braindead to argue that it should be worth less than 900pp; thus 20 second maps CAN give 900pp.
Which is completely stupid, since if you wanna FC 20 sec 20 star map, all you will do is memorizing the muscle movement, which is basically turning the game into some physical memorization challenge, rather than video-game.

Which actually happened in our case, he didnt play the game properly, he abused the flaw of the map with third party device. In this case we should blame both - the map and the TS.
I'm sorry but I can't take YOU seriously if you think that FCing a 20 star map would be down to... memorization? Wouldn't that make fcing anything memorization...? I'll treat this as irony. You're correct that in freedomdiver's case it was quite significantly a memorization score, but that's because he's using a touchscreen which makes jumps near irrelevant.
posted
20 stars is unreal, just being able to do the movements such a map would demand deserves the highest reward. Assuming 1:1 inputs, ofc. Like Peppy said, touchscreen essentially multiplies the # of inputs by 10, 1x tablet pen vs 10 fingers... jumps have to get really dumb to be too fast for a touchscreen player and by the time they reach that point they are already 10x faster than a tablet player can do. What's the difficulty of a ~8-8.5 star jump map, which we'll just say is a fair ceiling for what people can fc with tablet atm, made 10x faster? Probably higher than 20 stars. And if it all comes down to memorization rather than reading as you say, we can throw that out the window for both players. Touchscreen is mathematically provable to be easier for jumps, and by no small margin.

Therefore, ban all touchscreen players.

edit: or tablet players can start using 10 pens, to even things out.
posted
thank you peppy for this post. I'm glad to see that everything is under control... :3

in my opinion, technically the 900pp play by freedomdiver is legit and deserving... why?
1st: its legit because touchscreen players are recognized official 'technically' as part of the game since touchscreen can be seen and set in everyone's profile.

old website:

new website:


2nd: its deserving because freedomdiver didn't 'break' any rules for the gameplay... if you have a problem with this.. go check the Rules wiki or FAQ wiki...

so deal with it guys... its not yet the end of the world... lets just hope a new and improved system will come soon... :3
posted

Tanomoshii Nekojou wrote:

thank you peppy for this post. I'm glad to see that everything is under control... :3

in my opinion, technically the 900pp play by freedomdiver is legit and deserving... why?
1st: its legit because touchscreen players are recognized official 'technically' as part of the game since touchscreen can be seen and set in everyone's profile.

old website:

new website:


2nd: its deserving because freedomdiver didn't 'break' any rules for the gameplay... if you have a problem with this.. go check the Rules wiki or FAQ wiki...

so deal with it guys... its not yet the end of the world... lets just hope a new and improved system will come soon... :3
Of course it's legit. The definition of legit circulates around "DOES NOT CHEAT", and I agree touchscreen isn't a cheat. Almost Everything you said is correct. Except you're missing one point: and It's that the play was overweighted. Unless your definition of "overweighted" does not include: FC'ing 3 times in a short amount of time, specifically 860pp, 890pp, and 900pp, Getting A 78% 900pp, and the very fact it was played in a 20 second map. Then I guess it isn't, but to me, I feel like 900pp was not deserved, but the play itself was legit.

I am glad Peppy is taking action on this. Since Touchscreen players are being bashed to hell after what Freedomdiver did. Well, I was bashing them too I guess.
posted

Girl wrote:

Nice
posted
I am really happy to see how well you are addressing the situation!
posted
Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
posted

hi-mei wrote:

I think its a long awaited time for a meticulous review of how PP score is calculated.

There is a very tangible difference between 4 min 7* HDHR map fc and 20 seconds HDHRDT haitai FC.

This thing HAS to be addressed at some point, I truly hope that the solution will be finded and we gonna shift from TV-size farming meta to something a bit different.

I am not a math-guru, but I can say that the formula of PP calculation is struggling when it comes to sliders.

Maps with lots of sliders gives less score, doesnt matter if the actual difficulty is higher than the common TV-size anime maps.

So the main thing that comes to my mind is that PP system doesnt care how you hit sliders, how much input sliders are having on the player during the gameplay, how it affects reading and such.

But for temporary solution I can suggest to nerf how much PP is coming from short maps, it is just not ok that 20 second map gives 900 pp. Its just wrong.
I diagree.
While it's true how stamina should be an important factor in skill, it would be biased to say short-hard maps are less difficult. Look at it by the eye of someone that can't pass it, why because he doesn't have the stamina and patience to or because he lacks the skill.
Simply making short maps gain less just serves a certain type of player and doesn't fix the issue.
posted

Swivelx wrote:

Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
Why does everyone hate on catch the beat players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to dash and give thought. if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand. Plus with catch the beat you can't spin worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different game modes?

Because that's effectively what touchscreen is, a different game mode. It just doesn't fit.
posted

Swivelx wrote:

Why does everyone hate on Touchscreen players? Sure they can hit jumps much better, but can you think of how much skill that actually takes, you still have to aim and give thought, if you use both hands then you gotta plan both hands for aim instead of just your right hand.
Plus with touchscreen you can't Stream worth crap.

But my point is: We all play osu and strive to get better, can't we just respect that and not hate on different playstyles?
It isn't hating on a playstyle and/or the people using it to claim that it is unbalanced. We shouldn't just leave it that way to protect touchscreen players' feelings or something. While they can't really stream and have limited map choices, they have enough maps to get a significant amount of pp, and in that way among others it's vastly different from using tablet/mouse, meaning it isn't fair to put the two on the same system. I think it takes plenty of practice to get good with it, as with anything, but that doesn't mean it's balanced or that it is equal to tablet/mouse. To sum it up, stating that the playstyle is unbalanced isn't an attack on any players.
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