We are talking about present, not the future. I doubt in next few years 1-10ms input lag instead of ~50-100ms like now will be available for customer for decent amount of money which will not be considered waste.
jesse1412 wrote:True, but only for now. In the future the input lag will be reduced and the problem will be back. This argument is irrelevant in the big picture. Touchscreen acc won't be as hard to achieve in a few years.
[Taiga] wrote:I didn't wanted to state my opinion on reddit due how cancerous is that community (and this opinion could never see a daylight).
Main difficulty to play on this device is input lag which is significantly higher than any mouse/tablet (imagine that random 5$ mouse is better at this point). By hardware, this device is not build for rapid movements and tapping at this kind of speed. Unless you are using high-end device (like Surface Pro with dedicated CPU, not ARM/Mini like Atom) this input lag just increase due that CPU needs to handle game calculation and parse touch input (which works a bit differently from CPU code point of view than external pointing device). There is a reason why many old good TS plays are with EZ mode. Having good acc on high OD exceeding 9-10 is a challenge, big one, I don't say it is impossible but for sure it is challenging.
If you didn't notice, I have 779 hours in std and it gives me right to actually speak about it. Cut your childish "you can fuck right off" already, it is amusing in this civilized discussion.
jesse1412 wrote:I'm glad you don't care about the problem, so you can fuck right off out of this thread and continue not caring. You're ignoring the issue yet again because it's okay right now. The problem will only get worse, what will your argument be then?
[Taiga] wrote:2. Players
Honestly, how many of them are here? 10-20? 100? 1000? Like seriously. They are a non-visible percentage of playerbase, yet enraged community for completely stupid reason wants to separate them from everyone else. Personally I don't care, at all. While literally eating popcorn, consuming energy drink and reading reddit most of this people made me laugh and facepalm a lot with idiocy of "how touchscreen players are bad" / "ban them" / "separate from playerbase". Don't come with ranking and pp because it is already inflated with imbalanced pp made by few mappers which focused on ONLY ONE skill - aim - yet you complain when someone is using a device made specifically to play an aim based map. Pointless, not gonna comment more, there is nothing to say about that. It is just hypocrisy.
Let me explain something:
Yes, I don't see the problem. If I was 4-digit, I would still not see the problem, same comes to 3-digit, 2-digit, 1-digit. I simply don't really care. If right now someone could develop device which would make CTB way easier than it is now and gain massive amount of pp by it - idc either. Mainly because touchscreen is good at ONE type of maps.
Do you see huge scores on stream maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see any scores on pure tech maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see huge scores on marathon maps with touchscreen? No!
So where is the problem? That touchscreen is way better at jump maps? Well.... happens, there will be always pros and cons of each playstyle.
Tablet allows you to use Tap+X playstyle which if properly used enable you to achieve extreme speeds which is impossible only for keyboard (or more like barely possible).
And so on....
Not old "it's just da maps" but actual PARTIAL ISSUE. Over end of 2016 and 2017, there was ranked way more short high star maps than anytime before which created clear opportunity for touchscreen players to shine. If you followed GnR, there is a topic created 2 years ago by _Meep_ which list playable touchscreen maps (ref. t/401384&start=0). There isn't many.
jesse1412 wrote:Ah yes, the old "it's da maps xd" argument. I'm going to get autism if I have to explain why pp can't be balanced to work for touchscreen and mouse/tablet. I already have given proof that short aim only maps AREN'T the "mete" right now, yet here the argument is again. Provide me some evidence that the meta is what you say it is and then put forward another argument, then I'll actually be inclined to take your points seriously. Stop blaming the 10% of players that rely on tv size jump maps for pp. 90% of players don't do that, stop blaming the players. You're just looking for a scapegoat that isn't touchscreen from what I can see.
[Taiga] wrote:3. Maps, mapping
I see main problem here. What maps can handle touchscreen? Pure aim based with almost no triples / bursts. What "meta" we have now? Inflate aim pp with 30s maps. I could ask - where is balance of TV size maps which were build with pure difficulty containing aim based patterns, bursts and a little of semi-tech (flow/anti-flow) patterns? It doesn't exist now. How about I ask TS players to achieve same on for example Kuchizuke Diamond Lemur? Nope, sorry - bursts/triples/antiflow will keep them away, despite this is one of heavy overweighted maps. Daidai? Same - nope, lots of triples and burst in middle. Koigokoro? Same - nope. You get it? Before - TV size, mid/full-size maps were balanced around several skillsets and they gave either balanced amount of pp or were developed to be overweighted but in general aimed to force player to be efficient in not only one but at least 2 skills at once.
What it is right now? HaiTai, Cookie Monster (specifically map which made me quit STD), spam of Harumachi (where only one contain "bursts", god bless this one difficulty). Sorry guys but it is YOUR fault for accepting this maps. It is your fault that mappers are not punished for making such maps. YOU are supposed to notice them and veto shit out of them.
Do you think situation like that could happen when you didn't allow mappers to make 30s pure aim, extremely overweighted maps? I doubt it.
But - as I said, this amount drastically increased over last year (where actually topic is not updated by obvious reason).
You want argument why short maps are meta? Here are numbers. Searching criteria - Length = 60s and lower, Minimum difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 39 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 35 maps
2015 - 19 maps
2014 - 10 maps
2013 - 3 maps
2012 and down - not found or single maps.
I will not count maps below 2 min which are considered as TV-size once because numbers will be similar for each year. From other way:
Length = above 180s (3 min, full size), Minimal star difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 249 maps (year not finished yet)
2016 - 271 maps
2015 - 283 maps
2014 - 141 maps
2013 - 99 maps
Length = between 60 and 180 seconds, minimal diff = 4,5*
2017 - 379 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 430 maps
2015 - 418 maps
2014 - 270 maps
2013 - 194 maps
As you can see, just in 2016/2017 mappers made over twice as much maps below 60s which in majority are perfect for touchscreen players than in other years together. From other way, tendency to create full size and marathon maps is lowering from 2015. Numbers are taken from osusearch.com so this is only view type statistics (I take into consideration that this portal may not see something / bug / whatever).
Opinion about "short maps are meta now" is still valid considering rising amount of mappers and ranked maps each year. Most new mappers tend to focus on easy patterns (mainly jumps) and short maps.
I don't know from where you took 10/90% ratio. To do "abuse worthy" statistic, you need to start from ceretain point which isn't 11 mil. registered accounts but around 150-100k active players in the ranking. At that point, this ratio looks completely different.
Ranking isn't something where places are capped at certain point to achieve them. There will be always top 100. Only amount of points to achieve it will change. What people call a touchscreen problem is not really at the top where I guess only one or two players can compete but in mid-ranking range where more people play it and can abuse actuall mapping to gain way more pp easier, where "easier" doesn't mean that every single one of them will actually achieve top100 that fast as others (ref. valid proof of each player progressing of its own natural speed).
jesse1412 wrote:Ranking IS competitive, if it wasn't then ANYONE could achieve top 100. The fact the it's insanely difficult to rank up is proof alone that ranking is the definition of competitive. Also your argument makes no sense. You say that aim-only players are the issue, and then talk about how it's a tragedy that 1 trick ponies aren't competitive? Where is the logic in that?
[Taiga] wrote:4. Ranking and competition
Short - please don't speak about ranking being competitive when right now whole idea of pp ranking is an "shooter based game with rhythm in background". Ranking was competitive till mid of 2015 where whole idea of forcing aim based maps started, where "one trick ponies" were punished and they were halted at certain point for not knowing how to read complex patterns, how to stream, how to burst, how to jump etc.
TL;DR: Personally, I don't mind touchscreen players, more, I pray for more scores like that to expose flaws of current mapping meta. Maybe players start veto this 30s-1m pure aim based overweighted maps and force mappers to make something "quality". It is not device problem - it is pure mapping problem which comes to - pure human problem. You opened doors for touchscreen players to make this scores. Deal with it.
Please read with understanding - I didn't said OTP are not competitive.
Before "big boom" for short maps with simple jump style patterns and non-existant or rare bursts, OTP were punished for not being efficient in all skillsets.
Right now, OTP are in good position to rank up without much problems.
So, competition should be made in correct rules - to achieve high rank before, you had to be efficient in all skillsets.
Right now you just need to have aim, nothing else.
You call that competitive ranking?
Sorry, I disagree.
Again, read with understanding, I didn't said anything about "I don't like this". My whole statment is neutral in term of personalization. Please do not accuse me for this here.
jesse1412 wrote:It's nice to know that you think that only maps YOU like should be ranked. Cry some more. This game is played by hundreds of thousands of people who each like different things. No one cares that YOU don't like those maps, and no one should. I dislike tv size maps myself, but I'm not a selfish prick and I understand that some people do enjoy them. I'm not going to argue that we should punish those people by not allowing their preferred maps to get ranked, all because of a small subset of other players are abuse an overpowered peripheral.
[Taiga] wrote:As I said, touchscreen is not a problem. It is only for people who doesn't realize fact that for example in 2015, this hardware had REALLY low amount of playable maps, there is even topic in GnR with list of playable maps for touchscreen. Whole boom started when mappers started abusing ranking criteria + pp formula and made 30s to 1m super short, pure aim based maps which are perfect for touchscreen. They went crazy with 6* less than 1 min map, like WTF? And now people are crying that touchscreen is broken.
osu! is still a rhythm game, there is great amount of good maps (look at RLC, Pishi, fanzhen, 09kami and more mappers who said "No" to pp mapping and still making amazing full size balanced maps and from semi to full tech maps) which require more than just jumping ability. Problem is in mappers who influence massive amount of pp for one particular skillset and onwards, breaking completely ranking allowing one-trick-ponies to gain way higher rank than they initially deserve.
Tag4 maps were unranked because of touchscreen too. They're very different from the genre of map that you're displeased with as possible, yet no one talks about them. Why is that? If you can't tell yet, it's because people are stupid and can't see that the issue isn't "tv size aim maps".