osu!, touchscreens and you

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EnDy_S

Skeletroll wrote:

While your making changes to game, can you please make hidden give no extra pp, since it shouldn't because it is a vision mod which is completely based on preference and doesn't add practically any difficulty at high AR (which is what most people play anyway)
Yeah basically.

Peppy I really appreciate that you have reacted fast to these news and all, even though you often express that you don't care all that much about the competitive aspect of the game.
Still a lot of people play this game to compete and that is what 'enjoy the game' means to them. Even if your own personal preference is different why do you feel the need to disregard those people? The state of the competitive scene should rise on your to do list the sooner the better at this point.
jonanaht
How about we just play the game we like and don't care about other people's scores? Is that too much to ask for?
Kite

peppy wrote:

"The new play had low 80-90% accuracy! Just de-weight the accuracy in pp!"

There's no reason touchscreen players can't improve their accuracy to a higher level. This would only delay the inevitable -Tom94
This is an extremely weak and lazy argument in my opinion.
I don't see how shifting the accuracy requirement to achive the same score can be seen in such a way, you are basically saying that players don't have to show any sort of effort to achieve absurd scores.
Not only that but you are vastly underestimating the effort and determination that is required to perform the same sort of play freedomdiver made but on a higher accuracy level.
It's not a matter of retrying a few times and you magically get 98%...
If the pp score freedomdiver gained from his play was equivalent to let's say at least 95% acc play then nobody would have complained, because that would be straight up WAAAY more impressive than his current play is.

My idea to this entire fiasco was to shift pp awards from plays to the higher end of the accuracy curve, speaking the 900+ pp play from freedomdiver on 78% accuracy would need at least around 90% accuracy instead. I am not sure how the current pp formula looks like but having accuracy play a more vital role, perhaps in an exponential way would work out for the better?
Another issue that I noticed is that beatmap length doesn't seem to be factored into the formula in any way.

To give my idea some visualization, I prepared a few exponential graphs to showcase how it -might- work. (note these are just quickly assembled just for the sake of presentation)



Let the x axis be accuracy going from 0 to 100% and the y axis be the overall multiplier for the pp score you are awarded for a play going from 0 to 1.0.
The red graph would be the initial function used for further calculations, for example you could adjust accuracy requirement based on draintime of a beatmap.
The green graph showcases the accuracy needed for a rather short beatmap whereas the purple graph showcases the accuracy needed for a relatively long beatmap.
It basically get's more lenient the longer the draintime is.

This idea is just a proposal without much detail, but I think it's worth considering since it might help in getting rid of problems such as overweighted (poor accuracy) performance plays.
Seeing as many top plays are also TV Size length and DT plays it would put a higher skill cap towards accuracy.

One other huge issue to me is that the only special aspect of SS (100% acc) plays is.. yes that they are SS scores. They don't have a huge enough impact to actively pursue in my opinion. Giving them an additional 5% pp on top at the end would probably make them more desireable for many people to actually play for.

TLDR:
It's not a matter of delaying the inevitable, but a matter of forcing players to perform better overall so touchscreen scores like this won't be considered cheesy by the community.
Everybody should be able to see how much of a skill difference would be required to perform the same play on higher end accuracy.

Bottomline however is that it probably isn't worth initiating any measures for this problem and just wait out until further development is finished, seeing how much more advanced pp+ is compared to the current system.
Unrestricted
I believe that in the long-run, touchscreen should have its own competitive scene as it is a very different game. Replay analysers could automatically tell if a play is touchscreen and simply score them based on this.

This being said, it is not anything that needs to be done urgently.
jesse1412

hi-mei wrote:

How do you imagine that?

So you play, lets say, Apparition, you fc the streams, then you pause, then you switch to the touchscreen to hit jumps, then you see the stream again and the jumps right after it.

You switch again, dont forget to hit that orange thing that appears after pauses.

And if you miss, you gonna start again and again and again and again. Its super inefficient and way less abusable than it is now. Why? because you have to be as good as your touchsceen aim to play these insane streams and patterns.

To summarize our convo:

I do agree that touchscreen is a "cheat", the "cheat" that can only work on specific kind of maps - very short jumpy map, other than that - its super bad.

I do believe that rewarding system should be more balanced, more rewarding for people who likes others type of maps (i.e. -GN, Gayzcmgee, idke). For now, the mapping meta are based around playing short maps with 1/2 spam, that affected the entire generation of mappers and players, and to be fair it has to be addressed at some point.

Its like in any RPG or MOBA, when one class is dominating over all the other classes for more than 3 years, everybody knows that, nobody do shit about it.
Yes of course you can fit the argument around your own views if you pick a map that this doesn't work with. If you're going to bitch about how "mappers are the problem not touchscreen players!!" then you can't just ignore a new opportunity for mappers to abuse the pp system. If balance was rewarded so heavily, what makes you think mappers wouldn't just make a long stream map with a jump section at the end? Have you even thought ahead? If mappers will always abuse the pp system (which they will) your fix is LITERALLY just to delay the problem. In the future, when these new abuseable maps come along, people can play the first 4/5 with tablet/mouse and then swap right before a jump section.

hi-mei wrote:

Man, its been literally 3 years since this shit started.

80% of top 50 are DT tv-size maps abusers.

It affects players to focus on short low effort maps, also it affects mappers who wants their maps to be played, so they are finding low effort short maps are way more profitable to spend their time on than making long maps with variety of stuff in it.

I mean, while we are at it, isnt it the best time to fix it all together?
Well this is going to be a long post...

#1. Cookiezi - Top ranks don't consist of TV size maps (highest ranked player in the game doesn't do it, but it's apparently the problem). Doesn't rely on short maps.
#2. Rafis - 3 out of his top 20 scores are < 1 min 30 secs. 7 are longer than 4 minutes. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#3. Vaxei - Plays longer, VERY intense aim maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#4. filsdelama - Plays mostly long dt aim maps, with a large amount of dthdhr scores. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#5. firebat92 - Basically the same kind of player as rafis. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#6. hvick225 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#7. _RyuK - Arguably abuses short maps.
#8. Emilia - Plays extreme jump maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#9. Mathi - Variety player, does a bit of everything. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#10. Rohulk - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#11. Piggey - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#12. Spare - Plays a mix of dt and nomod. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#13. Bubbleman - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#14. Dustice - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#15. mcy3 - Hands down abuses short maps.
#16. idke - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#17. Happystick - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#18. Yaong - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#19. bro_gamer72 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#20. index - Doesn't rely on short maps.

1 of those players clearly abuses short maps. 1 player heavily uses them. At best that's 1/10.

I could keep going, but the trend is the same. Your imaginary problem doesn't exist. Stop making up COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Why do I have to spend my time checking all these players because you've made up an argument that's impossible to refute without wasting time checking? 80%? I'd guess closer to 10%, at which point, is it really abusing? If short maps were SO overrated then why in the world aren't top players relying on them?

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I'm personally of the same opinion that the PP algorithmn needs to award stamina more than it currently does. While longer maps do give more PP it becomes extremely hard to get any PP from them as 1 miss in the middle of the map and you don't get anything for it. If the song is 5 minutes long it is much more challenging to stay consistent for 5 minutes than it is to stay consistent for 30 seconds. Easiest solution to this would be to simply make combo irrelevant and have PP calculated from Accuracy and Number of misses. You'd still likely miss more times on a long map than a short map but the length bonus would counteract the number of misses and make long maps more viable.

Also the current score meta would need to be altered as well as combo is still very much relevant in that and in order for a # of misses system to actually have a 1x play where you missed in the center to beat a 10x play where you comboed the first 2/3 of the song and then started missing periodically in the last 1/3 it would have to be altered to this.

Also by having combo less important Accuracy becomes more important and helps to negate alot of the issue with touchscreen.

I don't think touchscreen needs to be on a different leaderboard or even get a mod reduction thing to scan plays to see if they used a touchscreen. I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs
This doesn't help the touchscreen problem at all, I'm not going to argue about combo vs accuracy in this thread because it's an irrelevant topic, but you're just making the problem worse with these ideas. If a map was 5 minutes of mediocre tier streams that everyone can get 99.9% acc on and then changed to a section of fullscreen insane 9* jumps, you could just miss the entire jump section and still get a bunch of pp.

Read this thread if you want to know why combo is important in standard.

Linada wrote:

in my opinion, the best way to fix this is to change PP system, having it rewarding different skills independently, like aim/speed/accuracy/reading/stamina and others skills i may forgot, something like how PP+ does (with better wheighting of course, the actual one isn't really accurate imo), so mappers that absolutely want their map being played wouldn't be forced to focus on aim focused map (because actually the game values aim more than anything else), that would actually add diversity on mapping (even if it'll end up the same as the actual mapping meta, they'll try to do the easiest overwheigted maps in X skill, but since it'll add more diversity i think it's still a good thing).

Having different wheightings would make it so if touchscreens plays a really short map with heavy aiming, easy flow and full of 1/2 rhythms (let's say haitai), they would get full PP from the 'aim' part of the map, but negtlecting accuracy, stamina, reading, etc.

Then also this could create news leaderboards per skill (aim, speed, etc) creating new competitions and new goals for players. But i guess it would be pretty hard to implement, i have no idea.
PP already does this on the back end, but speed/aim/acc values are combined for each score and given as "pp". Changing that would make the system far more touchscreen proof, but it doesn't solve the problem. A touchscreen player would have INSANE aim score, and if they played at a mediocre level with tablet/mouse as well, they could farm some pretty significant speed/acc points.

Linada wrote:

then FCing a map wouldn't be as rewarding as it is now, if you miss on a hard part or a slow part would mean exactly the same. FCing is still something that has do be rewarded, osu! combo wheighting is still a unique part of the game (as any other rhythm game doesn't use), making it important is what is making osu! unique imo. It makes you really wants to FC maps, and is rewarding you.
Again, read this thread if you want to know why combo is important in standard.

Atago wrote:

Hi, great post!
Regarding the pp algorithm, I think that there might be a solution? Im not very familiar with touchscreen, but im assuming that its pretty hard to do streams on it, isnt it? Because I rarely see any tablet plays that involed a lot of stream parts( like ror, freedoom dive etc) and mostly jump maps like granat. So why not buff streaming pp? If you dont have the way i think it would be pretty easy solution, like what is streaming? Its when theres little to no time between pressing notes, so just check that(the timing between notes and the ammount of notes pressed after the timing threshold is at right value), im sure you can figure it out. And its not necessary that it should be increased a lot, a tad bit should be alright.

Good luck with this problem,
-Atago
This doesn't solve any issue at all without completely ruining the importance of aim for standard players.

CoolZGuy wrote:

Thx for responding to this issue so quickly peppy. As a touchscreen player, the only worry I have is that this touchscreen mod idea devalues all plays no matter the kind of map. While I know it is difficult to know if a map is a jump heavy map or a stream heavy map, I still feel like a solution like this would do more harm than good esp on more modern maps. For example, if I do well on a map that's more stream heavy or has intricate patterns, I don't think my play should be worth less than that of another player. While I understand that changes do need to be made, I only hope that your longterm solution isn't so overarching.
Possibly correct, that's why the only fair option if for touchscreen to compete with touchscreen players and mouse/tablet players to compete with mouse/tablet players.

ZethZ161 wrote:

People really are contradicting themselves. When the last highest pp record was set, people are awaiting for new records. But now, when a new record is set, people complaning about it because it is set by a touchscreen player. If new records is what everyone wants, why they complaint about it when the score is there, just because it is a touchscreen play? It is acheived from a legit play and not just aimbot or anything like that, so I don't see any problems with it.

Look, I don't care any of this bullshit, partly because I don't play STD, another part is he didn't do anything wrong or cheated the scores. I know it is basically unreacheable with normal gameplay styles like tab or mouse, but who cares? If the score is set without cheating, then it is set. There's no reason for anyone to ban the score just because "you're a touchscreen player".

So, just stop the drama from this score, and just accept the fact that freedomdiver set a 900 pp scores with a touchscreen. If you can't accept the score, go for it. Rant anyway you want. Complain and hate him as much as you want to. That will help nothing.

Who knows, maybe someday, someone, will acheive a 900 pp play with a tablet or mouse? Time will tell. Just like Cookiezi's 817 pp record on Remote Control +HDDT, this record will be taken down too. How long? No one knows. But from my view, this score is legit and it should'nt be banned, anytime. Just let this pp record act as a target for the rest of the players to aim for.

-ZethZ161

Note: this is all my personal opinions, so if you want to, hate it. i wont complain since everyone has a different perspective on everything :D
This post gave me autism. If someone else did the same score with tablet/mouse, everyone would be going BONKERS with hype. The score would be INCREDIBLE. What are you smoking to think the issue is the map, not the peripheral? Of people might argue that the score is overweighted, but no one would be as upset as they are right now.

You clearly haven't read the OP or the thread if you think that touchscreen is comparable to tablet/mouse. If I made my own "osu! keyboard" that consisted of 2 mouse wheels, where one click was just one tiny movement of the mouse wheel and I got a 1000pp play by fcing a 600bpm deathstream, that would be just as fucking stupid as touchscreen. Touchscreen isn't 1:1. It's not comparable. It IS basically cheating. The moment that gameplay isn't 1:1, it begs the question, why can't use macros to click? Macros aren't 1:1, touchscreen movement aren't 1:1, so what's the difference?

[Taiga] wrote:

I didn't wanted to state my opinion on reddit due how cancerous is that community (and this opinion could never see a daylight).

1. Touchscreens

Main difficulty to play on this device is input lag which is significantly higher than any mouse/tablet (imagine that random 5$ mouse is better at this point). By hardware, this device is not build for rapid movements and tapping at this kind of speed. Unless you are using high-end device (like Surface Pro with dedicated CPU, not ARM/Mini like Atom) this input lag just increase due that CPU needs to handle game calculation and parse touch input (which works a bit differently from CPU code point of view than external pointing device). There is a reason why many old good TS plays are with EZ mode. Having good acc on high OD exceeding 9-10 is a challenge, big one, I don't say it is impossible but for sure it is challenging.
True, but only for now. In the future the input lag will be reduced and the problem will be back. This argument is irrelevant in the big picture. Touchscreen acc won't be as hard to achieve in a few years.

[Taiga] wrote:

2. Players

Honestly, how many of them are here? 10-20? 100? 1000? Like seriously. They are a non-visible percentage of playerbase, yet enraged community for completely stupid reason wants to separate them from everyone else. Personally I don't care, at all. While literally eating popcorn, consuming energy drink and reading reddit most of this people made me laugh and facepalm a lot with idiocy of "how touchscreen players are bad" / "ban them" / "separate from playerbase". Don't come with ranking and pp because it is already inflated with imbalanced pp made by few mappers which focused on ONLY ONE skill - aim - yet you complain when someone is using a device made specifically to play an aim based map. Pointless, not gonna comment more, there is nothing to say about that. It is just hypocrisy.
I'm glad you don't care about the problem, so you can fuck right off out of this thread and continue not caring. You're ignoring the issue yet again because it's okay right now. The problem will only get worse, what will your argument be then?

[Taiga] wrote:

3. Maps, mapping

I see main problem here. What maps can handle touchscreen? Pure aim based with almost no triples / bursts. What "meta" we have now? Inflate aim pp with 30s maps. I could ask - where is balance of TV size maps which were build with pure difficulty containing aim based patterns, bursts and a little of semi-tech (flow/anti-flow) patterns? It doesn't exist now. How about I ask TS players to achieve same on for example Kuchizuke Diamond Lemur? Nope, sorry - bursts/triples/antiflow will keep them away, despite this is one of heavy overweighted maps. Daidai? Same - nope, lots of triples and burst in middle. Koigokoro? Same - nope. You get it? Before - TV size, mid/full-size maps were balanced around several skillsets and they gave either balanced amount of pp or were developed to be overweighted but in general aimed to force player to be efficient in not only one but at least 2 skills at once.

What it is right now? HaiTai, Cookie Monster (specifically map which made me quit STD), spam of Harumachi (where only one contain "bursts", god bless this one difficulty). Sorry guys but it is YOUR fault for accepting this maps. It is your fault that mappers are not punished for making such maps. YOU are supposed to notice them and veto shit out of them.

Do you think situation like that could happen when you didn't allow mappers to make 30s pure aim, extremely overweighted maps? I doubt it.
Ah yes, the old "it's da maps xd" argument. I'm going to get autism if I have to explain why pp can't be balanced to work for touchscreen and mouse/tablet. I already have given proof that short aim only maps AREN'T the "mete" right now, yet here the argument is again. Provide me some evidence that the meta is what you say it is and then put forward another argument, then I'll actually be inclined to take your points seriously. Stop blaming the 10% of players that rely on tv size jump maps for pp. 90% of players don't do that, stop blaming the players. You're just looking for a scapegoat that isn't touchscreen from what I can see.

[Taiga] wrote:

4. Ranking and competition

Short - please don't speak about ranking being competitive when right now whole idea of pp ranking is an "shooter based game with rhythm in background". Ranking was competitive till mid of 2015 where whole idea of forcing aim based maps started, where "one trick ponies" were punished and they were halted at certain point for not knowing how to read complex patterns, how to stream, how to burst, how to jump etc.

TL;DR: Personally, I don't mind touchscreen players, more, I pray for more scores like that to expose flaws of current mapping meta. Maybe players start veto this 30s-1m pure aim based overweighted maps and force mappers to make something "quality". It is not device problem - it is pure mapping problem which comes to - pure human problem. You opened doors for touchscreen players to make this scores. Deal with it.
Ranking IS competitive, if it wasn't then ANYONE could achieve top 100. The fact the it's insanely difficult to rank up is proof alone that ranking is the definition of competitive. Also your argument makes no sense. You say that aim-only players are the issue, and then talk about how it's a tragedy that 1 trick ponies aren't competitive? Where is the logic in that?

pkhg wrote:

lets suppose that 900pp score was done with a tablet+kb playstyle
would you guys be complaining?

also mapping has nothing to do with how the pp system works. there were "pp" maps even before pp existed
No.

Catgirl wrote:

agreed completely with everything in this post

the way i see the situation over time is

1 - flawed pp system ->
2 - people discover the flaws in the system ->
3 - mappers make maps to exploit those flaws ->
4 - people like those maps because pp ->
5 - mappers make more and more of them which are even more dramatically flawed ->
6 - touchscreen can be viable for unthinkable pp plays on some of these maps

and people are thinking that suddenly removing touchscreen will fix the problem, but you really need to look back as far as step 3 at minimum, or ideally back to step 1

the problem is that the game is kinda beyond fixing due to the mentality of much of the playerbase, and due to stuff like #4 the meta probably wouldn't shift at all for a long time. for example if pp was removed today, people would still map the same way because people like the mapping style. if pp never existed (or if the system was 100% perfect on release which is impossible) then there wouldn't have been a step 2 or 3, and so on

tl;dr the problem isn't touchscreen, touchscreen has the potential to amplify the problem and peoples' perception of it
What? Removing touchscreen WILL fix the problem. I've already already shown that short maps aren't the issue in competitive play. Touchscreen is the issue, the maps are the scapegoat. If pp didn't exist I would still be arguing against touchscreen, but probably at a later date, when touchscreen players get better touchscreen with less latency. Eventually touchscreen players will be able to compete on the leaderboards of maps (in fact they already can, see fool moon night). Touchscreens are overpowered at attaining high pp, and overpowered on the hardest aim maps in the game. I want to see the best plays at #1 on the leaderboards, not 50 mediocre touchscreen scores.

- Spicy Wolf - wrote:

That some nice post , as you can see in *problem chain* we just need to change pp gain from long distance jumps ;)
In my opinion there must be some distance lock for pp gain , like half of screen distance between hit circles can give you max pp gain (ofc much less than now ) , distances above it will just give same pp . Its just simple explanation of idea
I refuse the believe that this post isn't irony, so I shall ignore it.

ZethZ161 wrote:

Well, I mean people are ranting anywhere in YouTube right now, so yeah.
I probably get the wrong point here, but hey, I'm also exposing the hate on TS players, so I think that kinda fits in the forum since it's related about the disagreement from a lot of players about his score.
AND YES, pp system is broken.
People who are hating touchscreen players are in the wrong. They've been given a full pass to do what they're doing, they've done nothing "wrong" and hating on them isn't fair, I agree.

But then you finish of with "pp system is broken". No, it isn't. It's actually very good at placing players relative to eachother... excluding touchscreen players. Don't blame the system, blame the peripheral.

rakuenslove wrote:

pp system is broken?nah touchscreen wouldn't be a problem if we wouldn't have 1 minute aim only maps that were made specifically for pp, it's the playerbase fault, you literally designed maps to be played like this for your own greed and now you cry about it, start mapping and playing for the fun of a rhythm game and maps like haitai and touchscreen problems wouldnt exist
No, 90% of us didn't. But thanks for trying to blame everyone but the touschreen players for the issues that have arisen from touchscreen players.

[Taiga] wrote:

As I said, touchscreen is not a problem. It is only for people who doesn't realize fact that for example in 2015, this hardware had REALLY low amount of playable maps, there is even topic in GnR with list of playable maps for touchscreen. Whole boom started when mappers started abusing ranking criteria + pp formula and made 30s to 1m super short, pure aim based maps which are perfect for touchscreen. They went crazy with 6* less than 1 min map, like WTF? And now people are crying that touchscreen is broken.

osu! is still a rhythm game, there is great amount of good maps (look at RLC, Pishi, fanzhen, 09kami and more mappers who said "No" to pp mapping and still making amazing full size balanced maps and from semi to full tech maps) which require more than just jumping ability. Problem is in mappers who influence massive amount of pp for one particular skillset and onwards, breaking completely ranking allowing one-trick-ponies to gain way higher rank than they initially deserve.
It's nice to know that you think that only maps YOU like should be ranked. Cry some more. This game is played by hundreds of thousands of people who each like different things. No one cares that YOU don't like those maps, and no one should. I dislike tv size maps myself, but I'm not a selfish prick and I understand that some people do enjoy them. I'm not going to argue that we should punish those people by not allowing their preferred maps to get ranked, all because of a small subset of other players are abuse an overpowered peripheral.

Tag4 maps were unranked because of touchscreen too. They're very different from the genre of map that you're displeased with as possible, yet no one talks about them. Why is that? If you can't tell yet, it's because people are stupid and can't see that the issue isn't "tv size aim maps".

Manuel Bartual wrote:

Just change the ranking criteria avoid sub 1:20 maps unrank <1min maps and call it a day
Again, I'm going to ignore this post because I refuse to believe it's not ironic.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I think you misunderstand me. I think an FC should still be awarded, I just think that misses should be more penalized, and the combo element removed.

Just to put it in perspective, assume you are taking a math test and you teacher graded on question combo. You get every single question right on this 100 question test except the 50th question. Well sorry to say but your grade on that test is now terrible. Meanwhile other kid in your class gets first 80 questions right and then screws up 10 of the last 20. Their score is now considered better than yours. Don’t you see how asinine that is? Why should a kid that missed more problems get a better score?
This is a useless analogy, combo is the only way to measure whether someone can aim/stream the map in question. Accuracy doesn't help us determine whether someone could actually hit the jumps that give the pp. If you want to use your maths test analogy, here's a more fitting version. Imagine there are 100 maths questions of varying difficulty and length. The last 10 are incredibly difficult and only 1% of people will be able to get them correct, the other 90 are easy. Now imagine that despite the different difficulties of the questions, each one only gives 1 mark if correct. You fail 4 questions in the first 90 due to silly mistakes and get 5 of the final 10 correct. Some other kid gets the first 90 right and fails 8 of the last 10. That kid gets a better score than you.

There are only two ways to fix this analogy. Award different points per question, which isn't possible in osu! (per-note pp analysis isn't feasible afaik). The only other option is to reward people who never miss, because we can't determine where misses are located. Neither is a nice solution, it doesn't take a genius to recognize that. Per-note pp analysis would be LEAGUES ahead of combo. Sadly we don't, and probably won't ever have that. So combo is the solution we currently follow and will continue to follow.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

Following “negative” things combo based scoring/PP causes:
1. Touchscreen with jump maps as we’ve seen here. If ACC is more valued over Combo touchscreen will be more balanced with mouse/tablet
2. Short map incentivizing. While yes long maps give more PP, it is much much easier to FC a short map than a long map due to stamina/consistency.
3. Mods are underweighted. In any competitive play, the mod play will only win if they have equal (or very close combo) to a nomod score making usage of mods usually a bad idea as the chances of a miss go up tremendously.
4. Difficulty spikes in maps. When combo is all that really matters, Maps that have insane cross-screen jumps as the final pattern while the rest was easy will still award insane PP. If # of misses was the meta, players missing here would be penalized heavily just like if they missed in the middle of the map making these sudden difficulty spike maps not as free of PP and more deserving of their SR.
1. True, but why is this the fault of the combo/pp system and not the peripheral?
2. Subjective.
3. Completely false.
4. The difficulty spikes are the reason the maps give pp, true. The difficulty spikes are harder, hence they give more pp. As already mentioned though, this style of map isn't an issue in competitive play (read above).

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

Scoring system suggestion (like Score V2 but with a twist):
1. Score cap of 1 million (just makes things cleaner, spinners could make it exceed 1 mil slightly)
2. Accuracy = 300,000 points
3. All hit objects hit = 700,000 points (each Hit object hit awards a even split amount of this 700,000 NO combo multiplier, each miss removes 5% of Hit object score but never to reduce below 0 points. Basically if you miss 20x+ you’d get nothing from the “combo” side of the score/PP)
4. Mods allow max scoring also to exceed 1 million with current multiplier system. (Since a mod like HR adds 6% score and a miss removes 5% of 70% of the score = ~ 3.5% score loss per miss, a 1x mod play will beat a nomod FC (with same ACC), but multiple misses will cause nomod score to win. This makes mod play much more viable and encouraged while not letting it overpower)

PP system will still probably need mod bonus calculated separately from score as difficulty of specific mods on maps varies.
This system makes accuracy more important on longer maps. What's the logic behind that? Someone can consistently not miss for 10k notes yet they're rewarded the same 70% as someone who fced a 10 second tv size map? This is EVEN WORSE than the old scoring system because it basically ignored length.

Kite wrote:

This is an extremely weak and lazy argument in my opinion.
I don't see how shifting the accuracy requirement to achive the same score can be seen in such a way, you are basically saying that players don't have to show any sort of effort to achieve absurd scores.
Not only that but you are vastly underestimating the effort and determination that is required to perform the same sort of play freedomdiver made but on a higher accuracy level.
It's not a matter of retrying a few times and you magically get 98%...
If the pp score freedomdiver gained from his play was equivalent to let's say at least 95% acc play then nobody would have complained, because that would be straight up WAAAY more impressive than his current play is.

My idea to this entire fiasco was to shift pp awards from plays to the higher end of the accuracy curve, speaking the 900+ pp play from freedomdiver on 78% accuracy would need at least around 90% accuracy instead. I am not sure how the current pp formula looks like but having accuracy play a more vital role, perhaps in an exponential way would work out for the better?
Another issue that I noticed is that beatmap length doesn't seem to be factored into the formula in any way.

To give my idea some visualization, I prepared a few exponential graphs to showcase how it -might- work. (note these are just quickly assembled just for the sake of presentation)



Let the x axis be accuracy going from 0 to 100% and the y axis be the overall multiplier for the pp score you are awarded for a play going from 0 to 1.0.
The red graph would be the initial function used for further calculations, for example you could adjust accuracy requirement based on draintime of a beatmap.
The green graph showcases the accuracy needed for a rather short beatmap whereas the purple graph showcases the accuracy needed for a relatively long beatmap.
It basically get's more lenient the longer the draintime is.

This idea is just a proposal without much detail, but I think it's worth considering since it might help in getting rid of problems such as overweighted (poor accuracy) performance plays.
Seeing as many top plays are also TV Size length and DT plays it would put a higher skill cap towards accuracy.

One other huge issue to me is that the only special aspect of SS (100% acc) plays is.. yes that they are SS scores. They don't have a huge enough impact to actively pursue in my opinion. Giving them an additional 5% pp on top at the end would probably make them more desireable for many people to actually play for.

TLDR:
It's not a matter of delaying the inevitable, but a matter of forcing players to perform better overall so touchscreen scores like this won't be considered cheesy by the community.
Everybody should be able to see how much of a skill difference would be required to perform the same play on higher end accuracy.

Bottomline however is that it probably isn't worth initiating any measures for this problem and just wait out until further development is finished, seeing how much more advanced pp+ is compared to the current system.
This is a very well thought out post but I think you're missing the point that peppy/tom made. Touchscreen players get bad accuracy because of latency issues, not inheritly because touchscreen is bad at acc. Solving the problem using accuracy curves is hence only a short term solution. Eventually someone will be able to do this with touchscreen and get 90%+. Do we keep shifting the threshold for receiving pp further and further back until anything less than 98% is discarded? Axarious' Kuchizuke Diamond play is only 93% acc. What happens when touchscreen players start getting 93% acc scores? Do we just throw away axarious' play, despite it being insane?

I'll say it again, touchscreen and tablet/mouse can't be compared. People need to stop trying to compare them.
AlexXYZ222
Meanwhile, osu!mania players dont even care xD
Kite

jesse1412 wrote:

This is a very well thought out post but I think you're missing the point that peppy/tom made. Touchscreen players get bad accuracy because of latency issues, not inheritly because touchscreen is bad at acc. Solving the problem using accuracy curves is hence only a short term solution. Eventually someone will be able to do this with touchscreen and get 90%+. Do we keep shifting the threshold for receiving pp further and further back until anything less than 98% is discarded? Axarious' Kuchizuke Diamond play is only 93% acc. What happens when touchscreen players start getting 93% acc scores? Do we just throw away axarious' play, despite it being insane?

I'll say it again, touchscreen and tablet/mouse can't be compared. People need to stop trying to compare them.
I agree the playstyles are just too different to cover for both, however I don't consider the fact that touchscreen players are able to set insane scores an actual "problem". If a touchscreen player would turn up with a 90% play... that would be insane and admirable, at that point I could hardly call it problematic and the pp would be more "earned" and "deserved" than it is now. Shifting and adjusting accuracy factors would be a one-time change, but at that point it would be more about opinion and perspective I would say.
I think it would be a step in the right direction as a basic concept, and can be improved further as needed.
Your argument is valid though, since it's more of latency issue for touchscreen than actual player skill that hinders accuracy it's not really a great solution in the end but it would put the problem at hand into a more acceptable relation.
mangeHD
well to add a point of argument about the touchscreen leaderboards... if something what would fix it is making touchscreen players use PPV1 making it so that if they dont acc they dont get good pp. like for example freedom diver's score is not in the top 50 on haitai which means that in PPV1 he would have gotten basically no pp at all.

i know this may be an unfair system but that is probably the only way to do it until we could find a way too make a new system for touchscreen only.
[Peachy]
I think touchscreen just needs to be a separate gamemode tbh
and people need to stop playing for ranks ffs
in my opinion, the pp system is absolutely fine as it is
freedomdiver didn't just pull the score out of his ass, it took skill and effort, and I see no reason to discredit it just because it's harder to do that on a tablet or mouse
I am fairly certain we won't be seeing all the other touchscreen players suddenly churning out 900pp plays anytime soon
what we will likely see soon is "normal" players setting 900pp scores. nobody will complain about the pp system then I can assure you
just fuckin chill, and play to improve yourself and not to pass others in ranks
I play because its really really enjoyable to watch myself get better and better at things I suck at
pp and rank is just an added bonus
OwlAE
Considering the fact that lazer will be available on phones, making separate "Touch" leaderboards would be the best option. It will most likely be that more players will use touchscreens, or their phones, to play osu! in the future, so why delay the making of leaderboards for a vastly different way to play. This could also pull new players, who would rather play osu! with a touchscreen, into the game because they could be compared with other touch players instead of mouse and tablet players.
Even if the creation of another leaderboard would take many weeks, like it was in the original post, I don't think that many players would have a problem with not having a bug fix here or there that doesn't affect gameplay. If you guys want to wait until after lazer is released, then that's reasonable, but making a separate leaderboard for touch may be your best solution.

No matter what you're decision is finally; there isn't really anything we can do but keep playing. ;)
Edgar_Figaro
To amend my previous suggestion, the only part I will agree with the complaints is it being easier to miss more on a long map. The longer a map is the less each miss should hurt the hit objects part of the score. Which would make sense as 4 miss HR score might be considered worse on a short map than the nomod FC but better on a long map. We could change it to some system where each miss is compared against the total number of objects so hitting 99% and missing 1% would give eact same hit objects score every time.

Also I don’t understand how “Accuracy is more important on long maps” regardless of map length it’s 300k Score.

(Basically I am suggesting Taikos score system but with more emphasis on # of misses than Taiko does currently, yes long maps you’ll get more misses on but the length bonus negates them. In fact most of the high PP scores in Taiko are on longer maps. TV size maps only really exist at the lower levels)
-Makishima S-

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

I didn't wanted to state my opinion on reddit due how cancerous is that community (and this opinion could never see a daylight).

1. Touchscreens

Main difficulty to play on this device is input lag which is significantly higher than any mouse/tablet (imagine that random 5$ mouse is better at this point). By hardware, this device is not build for rapid movements and tapping at this kind of speed. Unless you are using high-end device (like Surface Pro with dedicated CPU, not ARM/Mini like Atom) this input lag just increase due that CPU needs to handle game calculation and parse touch input (which works a bit differently from CPU code point of view than external pointing device). There is a reason why many old good TS plays are with EZ mode. Having good acc on high OD exceeding 9-10 is a challenge, big one, I don't say it is impossible but for sure it is challenging.
True, but only for now. In the future the input lag will be reduced and the problem will be back. This argument is irrelevant in the big picture. Touchscreen acc won't be as hard to achieve in a few years.
We are talking about present, not the future. I doubt in next few years 1-10ms input lag instead of ~50-100ms like now will be available for customer for decent amount of money which will not be considered waste.

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

2. Players

Honestly, how many of them are here? 10-20? 100? 1000? Like seriously. They are a non-visible percentage of playerbase, yet enraged community for completely stupid reason wants to separate them from everyone else. Personally I don't care, at all. While literally eating popcorn, consuming energy drink and reading reddit most of this people made me laugh and facepalm a lot with idiocy of "how touchscreen players are bad" / "ban them" / "separate from playerbase". Don't come with ranking and pp because it is already inflated with imbalanced pp made by few mappers which focused on ONLY ONE skill - aim - yet you complain when someone is using a device made specifically to play an aim based map. Pointless, not gonna comment more, there is nothing to say about that. It is just hypocrisy.
I'm glad you don't care about the problem, so you can fuck right off out of this thread and continue not caring. You're ignoring the issue yet again because it's okay right now. The problem will only get worse, what will your argument be then?
If you didn't notice, I have 779 hours in std and it gives me right to actually speak about it. Cut your childish "you can fuck right off" already, it is amusing in this civilized discussion.
Let me explain something:
Yes, I don't see the problem. If I was 4-digit, I would still not see the problem, same comes to 3-digit, 2-digit, 1-digit. I simply don't really care. If right now someone could develop device which would make CTB way easier than it is now and gain massive amount of pp by it - idc either. Mainly because touchscreen is good at ONE type of maps.
Do you see huge scores on stream maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see any scores on pure tech maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see huge scores on marathon maps with touchscreen? No!
So where is the problem? That touchscreen is way better at jump maps? Well.... happens, there will be always pros and cons of each playstyle.
Tablet allows you to use Tap+X playstyle which if properly used enable you to achieve extreme speeds which is impossible only for keyboard (or more like barely possible).
And so on....

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

3. Maps, mapping

I see main problem here. What maps can handle touchscreen? Pure aim based with almost no triples / bursts. What "meta" we have now? Inflate aim pp with 30s maps. I could ask - where is balance of TV size maps which were build with pure difficulty containing aim based patterns, bursts and a little of semi-tech (flow/anti-flow) patterns? It doesn't exist now. How about I ask TS players to achieve same on for example Kuchizuke Diamond Lemur? Nope, sorry - bursts/triples/antiflow will keep them away, despite this is one of heavy overweighted maps. Daidai? Same - nope, lots of triples and burst in middle. Koigokoro? Same - nope. You get it? Before - TV size, mid/full-size maps were balanced around several skillsets and they gave either balanced amount of pp or were developed to be overweighted but in general aimed to force player to be efficient in not only one but at least 2 skills at once.

What it is right now? HaiTai, Cookie Monster (specifically map which made me quit STD), spam of Harumachi (where only one contain "bursts", god bless this one difficulty). Sorry guys but it is YOUR fault for accepting this maps. It is your fault that mappers are not punished for making such maps. YOU are supposed to notice them and veto shit out of them.

Do you think situation like that could happen when you didn't allow mappers to make 30s pure aim, extremely overweighted maps? I doubt it.
Ah yes, the old "it's da maps xd" argument. I'm going to get autism if I have to explain why pp can't be balanced to work for touchscreen and mouse/tablet. I already have given proof that short aim only maps AREN'T the "mete" right now, yet here the argument is again. Provide me some evidence that the meta is what you say it is and then put forward another argument, then I'll actually be inclined to take your points seriously. Stop blaming the 10% of players that rely on tv size jump maps for pp. 90% of players don't do that, stop blaming the players. You're just looking for a scapegoat that isn't touchscreen from what I can see.
Not old "it's just da maps" but actual PARTIAL ISSUE. Over end of 2016 and 2017, there was ranked way more short high star maps than anytime before which created clear opportunity for touchscreen players to shine. If you followed GnR, there is a topic created 2 years ago by _Meep_ which list playable touchscreen maps (ref. t/401384&start=0). There isn't many.
But - as I said, this amount drastically increased over last year (where actually topic is not updated by obvious reason).

You want argument why short maps are meta? Here are numbers. Searching criteria - Length = 60s and lower, Minimum difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 39 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 35 maps
2015 - 19 maps
2014 - 10 maps
2013 - 3 maps
2012 and down - not found or single maps.

I will not count maps below 2 min which are considered as TV-size once because numbers will be similar for each year. From other way:
Length = above 180s (3 min, full size), Minimal star difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 249 maps (year not finished yet)
2016 - 271 maps
2015 - 283 maps
2014 - 141 maps
2013 - 99 maps

Length = between 60 and 180 seconds, minimal diff = 4,5*
2017 - 379 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 430 maps
2015 - 418 maps
2014 - 270 maps
2013 - 194 maps

As you can see, just in 2016/2017 mappers made over twice as much maps below 60s which in majority are perfect for touchscreen players than in other years together. From other way, tendency to create full size and marathon maps is lowering from 2015. Numbers are taken from osusearch.com so this is only view type statistics (I take into consideration that this portal may not see something / bug / whatever).
Opinion about "short maps are meta now" is still valid considering rising amount of mappers and ranked maps each year. Most new mappers tend to focus on easy patterns (mainly jumps) and short maps.

I don't know from where you took 10/90% ratio. To do "abuse worthy" statistic, you need to start from ceretain point which isn't 11 mil. registered accounts but around 150-100k active players in the ranking. At that point, this ratio looks completely different.

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

4. Ranking and competition

Short - please don't speak about ranking being competitive when right now whole idea of pp ranking is an "shooter based game with rhythm in background". Ranking was competitive till mid of 2015 where whole idea of forcing aim based maps started, where "one trick ponies" were punished and they were halted at certain point for not knowing how to read complex patterns, how to stream, how to burst, how to jump etc.

TL;DR: Personally, I don't mind touchscreen players, more, I pray for more scores like that to expose flaws of current mapping meta. Maybe players start veto this 30s-1m pure aim based overweighted maps and force mappers to make something "quality". It is not device problem - it is pure mapping problem which comes to - pure human problem. You opened doors for touchscreen players to make this scores. Deal with it.
Ranking IS competitive, if it wasn't then ANYONE could achieve top 100. The fact the it's insanely difficult to rank up is proof alone that ranking is the definition of competitive. Also your argument makes no sense. You say that aim-only players are the issue, and then talk about how it's a tragedy that 1 trick ponies aren't competitive? Where is the logic in that?
Ranking isn't something where places are capped at certain point to achieve them. There will be always top 100. Only amount of points to achieve it will change. What people call a touchscreen problem is not really at the top where I guess only one or two players can compete but in mid-ranking range where more people play it and can abuse actuall mapping to gain way more pp easier, where "easier" doesn't mean that every single one of them will actually achieve top100 that fast as others (ref. valid proof of each player progressing of its own natural speed).

Please read with understanding - I didn't said OTP are not competitive.
Before "big boom" for short maps with simple jump style patterns and non-existant or rare bursts, OTP were punished for not being efficient in all skillsets.
Right now, OTP are in good position to rank up without much problems.
So, competition should be made in correct rules - to achieve high rank before, you had to be efficient in all skillsets.
Right now you just need to have aim, nothing else.
You call that competitive ranking?
Sorry, I disagree.

jesse1412 wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

As I said, touchscreen is not a problem. It is only for people who doesn't realize fact that for example in 2015, this hardware had REALLY low amount of playable maps, there is even topic in GnR with list of playable maps for touchscreen. Whole boom started when mappers started abusing ranking criteria + pp formula and made 30s to 1m super short, pure aim based maps which are perfect for touchscreen. They went crazy with 6* less than 1 min map, like WTF? And now people are crying that touchscreen is broken.

osu! is still a rhythm game, there is great amount of good maps (look at RLC, Pishi, fanzhen, 09kami and more mappers who said "No" to pp mapping and still making amazing full size balanced maps and from semi to full tech maps) which require more than just jumping ability. Problem is in mappers who influence massive amount of pp for one particular skillset and onwards, breaking completely ranking allowing one-trick-ponies to gain way higher rank than they initially deserve.
It's nice to know that you think that only maps YOU like should be ranked. Cry some more. This game is played by hundreds of thousands of people who each like different things. No one cares that YOU don't like those maps, and no one should. I dislike tv size maps myself, but I'm not a selfish prick and I understand that some people do enjoy them. I'm not going to argue that we should punish those people by not allowing their preferred maps to get ranked, all because of a small subset of other players are abuse an overpowered peripheral.

Tag4 maps were unranked because of touchscreen too. They're very different from the genre of map that you're displeased with as possible, yet no one talks about them. Why is that? If you can't tell yet, it's because people are stupid and can't see that the issue isn't "tv size aim maps".
Again, read with understanding, I didn't said anything about "I don't like this". My whole statment is neutral in term of personalization. Please do not accuse me for this here.
DarthSkrill
Standard only problem (if it is a problem), let them solve it
Edgar_Figaro

DarthSkrill wrote:

Standard only problem (if it is a problem), let them solve it
Technically touchscreen is OP in Taiko too as you can get insane speeds due to 8 finger inputs while normally you only have 2 for kat and 2 for don. Especially with some bizzare converts that will have a spam of 1/32 monocolors that is normally impossible to play using 2 fingers is possible with 8 fingers rapidly tapping on the screen.

So why isn’t the top play in Taiko from a touch screen?

Simple, input lag from touchscreen and that ACC is most important factor in Taiko.

( but it’s still worth mentioning)
-Evi
Thank you, Peppy, for considering a way to fix issues with touchscreen.
I hope you find out a fun way to balance it and to maybe prevent the community from being so toxic about it :( .
I enjoy playing touchscreen only because I can't use my other hand to tap the keyboard very well, as I'm not really able to click so much without having a deep-seated pain in my wrist. So I guess I'm odd in the fact that I only play with my one hand, really.
I additionally cannot do "mouse only" or "tablet only" either. I have a tremble in my hands that messes with stuff I do a lot.
I'm still very impressed by freedomdiver's play, because it pushed the limits of touchscreen and really was quite incredible.
But I honestly wish it had never been made.
Because now there's just a small community of players who are generally only proficient at certain maps, difficult jump maps or very fast jump maps or sometimes TAG4 maps, that are being absolutely hated. And a very fair portion of us aren't as well known or as good at playing touchscreen as players such as freedomdiver, or itsamemarioo, or CatBagasm, or Girl.
It might have annoyed some people, for a good while.
Being able to NC/DT the highest difficulty of Cookie-Butter-Choco-Cookie for example is difficult, and is less difficult for the touchscreen player than any other kind of player, for example. Or being able to set a very high score on a Granat map. Additionally, of course, the map that the 900pp play was made on. Haitai Ultimate.
But that's it. Every touchscreen player seems to develop this repertoire of maps that they focus on setting highscores on, and I guess you could say they focus on abusing it for pp.
That's generally because they can't play other maps very well, at least from what I've seen.
I enjoy being able to compete against my friends who play tablet or mouse well, and to see my scores compared to theirs in the same system, and to still have to work hard to surpass them. I can do jumps fairly well, but reading them is difficult. I can barely play through streams, yet I still do. It's absurd whenever a touchscreen player can. I get to be proud when I finally pass a map with streams as well as other stuff in it and manage to beat a friend's score.
I guess I'm not really making much of an argument overall, here.
I'm just asking you to please, don't ruin the way playing as a touchscreen player works. Fix it, change it up, but don't make it so competing with touchscreen only is absolutely absurd or very difficult to do. Don't separate us from the rest of the community based on the abuse of a few maps and playing the same game a different way.
Thank you for this game and what you do for the community of it :D
-Makishima S-
Don't separate us from the rest of the community based on the abuse of a few maps and playing the same game a different way.
This is all cry about unfortunately. I agree that separating touchscreen players from playerbase would be complete bullshit.

Only thing what could be done is just create another mod, force rule that touchscreen plays needs to be made with it and lower aim value in pp formula for it.
I think there is not even need to force touchscreen rules, as osu! is C# based, it can simply use

        [DllImport("user32.dll")]
public static extern int GetSystemMetrics(int nIndex);

public static bool isTouchEnabled()
{
int MAXTOUCHES_INDEX = 0x95;
int maxTouches = GetSystemMetrics(MAXTOUCHES_INDEX);

return maxTouches > 0;
}

to recognize if device is a touchscreen or not.
Praw
Thank you for not reacting to the outrage. The problem is way smaller than it seems.
Rikuka
- technical maps are underrated on std

- no dual screening fl mods on taiko

- no esc pause button on mania

:D
Vuelo Eluko
All that needs to be done is separate touchscreen from 1:1 input methods in lazer, the pp system does not need to change to accommodate them right away, although in the future, if the demand for a better system is asked for, you can simply devalue jumps and buff streams compared to the mouse/tablet scores because rewarding the more difficult thing is the way to go. This could create some issues though, like tablet players intentionally using the auto-detection via fucking with their hovering a bit during the start or a break to play streamy maps as 'touchscreen players'... No system is perfect though eh.

It's not a big problem right now yeah but it can become one, the question is do you want to wait for it to become one to do something about it? That'd just alienate more people particularly touchscreen players who bought their expensive hardware to play osu! with everyone else and now feel segregated. Needs to be made clear from the start that this is not a fair way to compete with 99% of the people playing so no one gets the wrong idea, right now even the fact that it's right next to mouse/tablet/kb on your profile as an input method can give newer players the wrong idea. Akin to putting trackpap/trackball/joystick on there but for opposite reasons; people might assume they aren't hot garbage options.

Also Jesse's post is worth reading for anyone who skipped it because it's too long, you can trust my totally unbiased opinion on the matter, ignore my name
jesse1412

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

To amend my previous suggestion, the only part I will agree with the complaints is it being easier to miss more on a long map. The longer a map is the less each miss should hurt the hit objects part of the score. Which would make sense as 4 miss HR score might be considered worse on a short map than the nomod FC but better on a long map. We could change it to some system where each miss is compared against the total number of objects so hitting 99% and missing 1% would give eact same hit objects score every time.
By reducing the impact of a miss based on map length you introduce another issue. A long map with a difficulty spike at the end will be overweighted. 3 or 4 misses will cause only a small pp reduction (say, 15%). At the spike, you could ignore some of the notes to easily hit half the notes and receive only a small penalty.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

Also I don’t understand how “Accuracy is more important on long maps” regardless of map length it’s 300k Score.

(Basically I am suggesting Taikos score system but with more emphasis on # of misses than Taiko does currently, yes long maps you’ll get more misses on but the length bonus negates them. In fact most of the high PP scores in Taiko are on longer maps. TV size maps only really exist at the lower levels)
Yeah I worded this badly. What I meant to say is that the length of the map doesn't really change the difficulty to get those 300k acc points, while it does change the difficulty to get the 700k combo points.

[Taiga] wrote:

We are talking about present, not the future. I doubt in next few years 1-10ms input lag instead of ~50-100ms like now will be available for customer for decent amount of money which will not be considered waste.
The technology will eventually come though, maybe not next year but in 5-10 years it'll definitely be there. The fact that it probably won't be affordable for most people just makes the touchscreen problem even worse because only rich people will be able to abuse touchscreen pp.

[Taiga] wrote:

If you didn't notice, I have 779 hours in std and it gives me right to actually speak about it. Cut your childish "you can fuck right off" already, it is amusing in this civilized discussion.
Let me explain something:
Yes, I don't see the problem. If I was 4-digit, I would still not see the problem, same comes to 3-digit, 2-digit, 1-digit. I simply don't really care. If right now someone could develop device which would make CTB way easier than it is now and gain massive amount of pp by it - idc either. Mainly because touchscreen is good at ONE type of maps.
Do you see huge scores on stream maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see any scores on pure tech maps with touchscreen? No!
Do you see huge scores on marathon maps with touchscreen? No!
So where is the problem? That touchscreen is way better at jump maps? Well.... happens, there will be always pros and cons of each playstyle.
Tablet allows you to use Tap+X playstyle which if properly used enable you to achieve extreme speeds which is impossible only for keyboard (or more like barely possible).
And so on....
No one cares how many hours you've played. You said yourself that you don't care, so why are you here caring? I care. You clearly care. It's fine to care. I was more pointing out that it's ridiculous that you would even try to argue your point if you don't care. But if you truly don't care, then I don't understand why you're here? Why does your opinion matter if you don't agree with it enough to actually care about it?

You're basically saying that touchscreen is cheating, but only on aim maps, so it's okay. That's absurd. Let's try a different, but similar argument. Auto clicking macros are cheating, but only in streamy maps, so it's okay. Clicking macros make key inputs none 1:1 but you still have to click accurately which makes them essentially as advantageous as touchscreen, which despite not being 1:1, have to aim properly. Why is one cheating and one isn't?

Tap X is completely different because it's still a 1:1 input method. 1 tap, 1 key press. Even if It's "easier" to spam fast, tapx is irrelevant for this discussion because it is 1:1.

[Taiga] wrote:

Not old "it's just da maps" but actual PARTIAL ISSUE. Over end of 2016 and 2017, there was ranked way more short high star maps than anytime before which created clear opportunity for touchscreen players to shine. If you followed GnR, there is a topic created 2 years ago by _Meep_ which list playable touchscreen maps (ref. t/401384&start=0). There isn't many.
But - as I said, this amount drastically increased over last year (where actually topic is not updated by obvious reason).

You want argument why short maps are meta? Here are numbers. Searching criteria - Length = 60s and lower, Minimum difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 39 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 35 maps
2015 - 19 maps
2014 - 10 maps
2013 - 3 maps
2012 and down - not found or single maps.

I will not count maps below 2 min which are considered as TV-size once because numbers will be similar for each year. From other way:
Length = above 180s (3 min, full size), Minimal star difficulty = 4,5*
2017 - 249 maps (year not finished yet)
2016 - 271 maps
2015 - 283 maps
2014 - 141 maps
2013 - 99 maps

Length = between 60 and 180 seconds, minimal diff = 4,5*
2017 - 379 maps (and year is not finished yet)
2016 - 430 maps
2015 - 418 maps
2014 - 270 maps
2013 - 194 maps

As you can see, just in 2016/2017 mappers made over twice as much maps below 60s which in majority are perfect for touchscreen players than in other years together. From other way, tendency to create full size and marathon maps is lowering from 2015. Numbers are taken from osusearch.com so this is only view type statistics (I take into consideration that this portal may not see something / bug / whatever).
Opinion about "short maps are meta now" is still valid considering rising amount of mappers and ranked maps each year. Most new mappers tend to focus on easy patterns (mainly jumps) and short maps.

I don't know from where you took 10/90% ratio. To do "abuse worthy" statistic, you need to start from ceretain point which isn't 11 mil. registered accounts but around 150-100k active players in the ranking. At that point, this ratio looks completely different.
Did you read my post? Let me quote myself:

jesse1412 wrote:

#1. Cookiezi - Top ranks don't consist of TV size maps (highest ranked player in the game doesn't do it, but it's apparently the problem). Doesn't rely on short maps.
#2. Rafis - 3 out of his top 20 scores are < 1 min 30 secs. 7 are longer than 4 minutes. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#3. Vaxei - Plays longer, VERY intense aim maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#4. filsdelama - Plays mostly long dt aim maps, with a large amount of dthdhr scores. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#5. firebat92 - Basically the same kind of player as rafis. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#6. hvick225 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#7. _RyuK - Arguably abuses short maps.
#8. Emilia - Plays extreme jump maps. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#9. Mathi - Variety player, does a bit of everything. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#10. Rohulk - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#11. Piggey - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#12. Spare - Plays a mix of dt and nomod. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#13. Bubbleman - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#14. Dustice - Variety player. Doesn't rely on short maps.
#15. mcy3 - Hands down abuses short maps.
#16. idke - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#17. Happystick - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#18. Yaong - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#19. bro_gamer72 - Doesn't rely on short maps.
#20. index - Doesn't rely on short maps.

1 of those players clearly abuses short maps. 1 player heavily uses them. At best that's 1/10.

I could keep going, but the trend is the same. Your imaginary problem doesn't exist. Stop making up COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Why do I have to spend my time checking all these players because you've made up an argument that's impossible to refute without wasting time checking? 80%? I'd guess closer to 10%, at which point, is it really abusing? If short maps were SO overrated then why in the world aren't top players relying on them?
How can you argue that short maps are the meta when I went through and checked the top ranks of each player in the top 20 and found the opposite? Not only do you say that my findings are wrong, you also go as far as to say that the opposite is true, yet again without providing any evidence; presumably because none exists. The 10% statistic comes from me looking at the top 20 players and finding that 2 of them seem to play a disproportionate amount of short aim maps.

We can use your own metrics to show the issue too, but I must stress that the amount of short aim maps doesn't demonstrate the current pp meta. There may be more maps, but that doesn't mean people are getting a larger proportion of their pp from said maps. A "short" map is generally a map <90 seconds long. The difficulty of those maps are usually about 4*+, that's around the difficulty of entry level farm maps.

Length <= 60, stars > 4:
2011 - 120
2012 - 155 (29% increase)
2013 -159 (3% increase)
2014 - 250 (57% increase)
2015 - 371 (48% increase)
2016 - 351 (5% decrease)
2017 - 332 (n/a, year isn't finished)

Length > 60, stars > 4:
2011 - 572
2012 - 664 (16% increase)
2013 - 592 (11% decrease)
2014 - 723 (31% increase)
2015 - 1154 (49% increase)
2016 - 1182 (2% increase)
2017 - 1110 (n/a, year isn't finished)

As you can see, the amount of short vs not short maps getting ranked grow at a similar rate. The only years where shorter maps grew faster than longer maps were 2012 and 2014. 2012 happened before ppv2 was even a thing, so we can ignore that. Of the 4 years since pp became a thing, short maps have only increased in number significantly by a larger percent than long maps during 2014. With that in mind, how can you argue that this is an issue stemming from the fact that modern maps are shorter? Modern maps clearly aren't generally shorter. 2014 was 3 (almost 4) years ago, if the problem was due to short pp maps, why has this only just become a major issue? Why have short maps only started impacting the game now? Those are both rhetorical question, there's no logical answer that agrees with your points.

Let me ask another question. What has changed very recently that has thrown the pp system into disarray? Touchscreens. Touchscreens only became a "common" peripheral in the last 2 years, and since then, with only ~2 years of practice, touchscreen players have achieved the highest rated play in the game. If short, aim intense maps were the issue, tablet/mouse players would have already attained a 900pp score on the same map, but they can't because they use a 1:1 input method.

[Taiga] wrote:

Ranking isn't something where places are capped at certain point to achieve them. There will be always top 100. Only amount of points to achieve it will change. What people call a touchscreen problem is not really at the top where I guess only one or two players can compete but in mid-ranking range where more people play it and can abuse actuall mapping to gain way more pp easier, where "easier" doesn't mean that every single one of them will actually achieve top100 that fast as others (ref. valid proof of each player progressing of its own natural speed).

Please read with understanding - I didn't said OTP are not competitive.
Before "big boom" for short maps with simple jump style patterns and non-existant or rare bursts, OTP were punished for not being efficient in all skillsets.
Right now, OTP are in good position to rank up without much problems.
So, competition should be made in correct rules - to achieve high rank before, you had to be efficient in all skillsets.
Right now you just need to have aim, nothing else.
You call that competitive ranking?
Sorry, I disagree.
The issue isn't at the top... YET. It will be eventually though. 800pp plays were proven trivial for the current top touchscreen player, as shown by him setting multiple 800+ pp scores in a row (on a single map). The reason there aren't as many top100 touchscreen players is because there are far less touchscreen players, plus touchscreen players have had less time to train with their peripherals. Touchscreen players are competing with people who have played osu! for 5+ years with their preferred input device, and they're getting higher pp scores already.

Let's assume you're objectively correct and that it shouldn't be possible to rank up by only being skilled in one area. What's your solution to the issue? Make pp fit around rewarding balanced maps?

Stream maps -> low pp.
Jump maps -> low pp.
Acc maps -> low pp.
Balanced maps -> full pp.

FC ascension to heaven doubletime? Nah, unbalanced score, 200pp for you. FC red like roses DT? Nah, unbalanced score, 200pp for you. FC santa san hdhr? Woah that map has streams and jumps and high od, 400pp for you. Clearly this isn't going to work. What's the other solution to the issue? Unrank and outlaw all maps that don't have 1/4 and are less than 60 seconds, even if the song doesn't contain 1/4 and is < 60 seconds? Ridiculous.

You're using short, aim intensive maps as a scapegoat. People in in the past COULD rank up using only 1 skillset. I was top200 using ONLY stream scores when tp was released. I'll say it one last time, the problem isn't aim, or recent maps. It's touchscreen.
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