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posted

NepNep- wrote:

In my opinion, I wouldn't just make touchscreen players unranked. That's just a bit cruel. Yes, touchscreen is considered unfair to a significant amount of people, but that is not reason to unrank it. Even if peppy also says so.
No, something being considered unfair by a significant portion of the playerbase is a perfectly legitimate reason to unrank it. If you are still trying to advocate for touch players not being affected in any way at all, you are quite a few steps behind in the argument; at this point it is already a given that something will be done exclusively to disadvantage touch players, and the creation of this thread was not to discuss whether that should happen, but only possibly how to enact it.

NepNep- wrote:

I'd rather not get banned from the leaderboards just because the community despises what I use.
That's... somewhat selfish of you, don't you think. If you don't care about your presence on community leaderboards, you shouldn't be concerned about playing for no pp; otherwise, you should recognize that it is the communities' and developers' right to agree on what is fair for those leaderboards, and it shouldn't be up to what you personally prefer, as only one member of a very large community, especially when most of that community disagrees with you (as you yourself claim is the case here).

NepNep- wrote:

But I doubt heavily that a complete solution will be found. The most simple solution would be to just separate the touchscreen from the rest of std, which doesn't sound like a good idea if you dive deeper into the touchscreen players.
What exactly do you mean by this? I personally would have no issue with this, as it would return competition to level ground among each playstyle. Either way, peppy has explicitly stated that the amount of infrastructure required for this basically rules it out as a short term solution.


@Ryouku you should probably reread some of jesse1412's comments earlier in this thread, I think he does a pretty good job of explaining how accuracy really isn't at all relevant to the touchscreen issue, pp balancing should be saved for discussions elsewhere.
posted

freedomdiver wrote:

No, something being considered unfair by a significant portion of the playerbase is a perfectly legitimate reason to unrank it. If you are still trying to advocate for touch players not being affected in any way at all, you are quite a few steps behind in the argument; at this point it is already a given that something will be done exclusively to disadvantage touch players, and the creation of this thread was not to discuss whether that should happen, but only possibly how to enact it.
I'm talking in a more humane perspective. I merely wanted to give my opinion on it. Hence the "in my opinion"

freedomdiver wrote:

That's... somewhat selfish of you, don't you think. If you don't care about your presence on community leaderboards, you shouldn't be concerned about playing for no pp; otherwise, you should recognize that it is the communities' and developers' right to agree on what is fair for those leaderboards, and it shouldn't be up to what you personally prefer, as only one member of a very large community, especially when most of that community disagrees with you (as you yourself claim is the case here).
It is selfish. Not to just a touchscreen player, but for the most of the touchscreen community. I find it cruel if peppy just outright "bans" hundreds, or thousands of players just because they used touchscreen.

freedomdiver wrote:

What exactly do you mean by this? I personally would have no issue with this, as it would return competition to level ground among each playstyle. Either way, peppy has explicitly stated that the amount of infrastructure required for this basically rules it out as a short term solution.
If peppy does mange to get touchscreen in a different leaderboard, what then? The touchscreen community is extremely sparse compared to the rest. It wouldn't be that "fun" to some, or maybe most of the touchscreen players if it gets separated.



Most are merely just my opinion on the "What if this happened". I have no right to say which is the right decision.
posted
Can we make an entirely new game mode?

Something like osu! touch, with a separate leaderboard from everyone else. You can probably include phone and tablet players of osu! lazer on here, too, maybe?This is still kind of dipping into the "huge infrastructure change" option, I think.

osu! touch could be catered specifically towards touchscreen players, with allowing multiple inputs at once, kind of like the Love Live mobile game. Except, instead of all the circles sitting around and you waiting for the notes to approach, it plays like osu! standard. Except, it has up to 10 things to press at once. You could even have different types of notes (flick notes, hold notes, etc) to make it more interesting.

The only way for this to work, though, is to make osu! touch feel much more rewarding to play for touchscreen players than osu! standard. If no one cares about it and no one thinks it's worth playing, then this option just becomes a waste of time. But that's the only way I can really think of dealing with this issue (right now, anyways), by making a game mode that people want to play that has an inherently different input setup so that no one can complain about touchscreens having an advantage.
posted

citremi wrote:

Can we make an entirely new game mode?

Something like osu! touch, with a separate leaderboard from everyone else. You can probably include phone and tablet players of osu! lazer on here, too, maybe?This is still kind of dipping into the "huge infrastructure change" option, I think.

osu! touch could be catered specifically towards touchscreen players, with allowing multiple inputs at once, kind of like the Love Live mobile game. Except, instead of all the circles sitting around and you waiting for the notes to approach, it plays like osu! standard. Except, it has up to 10 things to press at once. You could even have different types of notes (flick notes, hold notes, etc) to make it more interesting.

The only way for this to work, though, is to make osu! touch feel much more rewarding to play for touchscreen players than osu! standard. If no one cares about it and no one thinks it's worth playing, then this option just becomes a waste of time. But that's the only way I can really think of dealing with this issue (right now, anyways), by making a game mode that people want to play that has an inherently different input setup so that no one can complain about touchscreens having an advantage.
Making a new gamemode has been the most suggested thing here. It's one of the most simple solutions people can think of, but there are multiple downsides to it. With one of the biggest being that the Touchscreen community is really small. Maybe a few thousand even plays touchscreen. Imagine how "boring" the leaderboards would be? The gap in ranks between some people would be pretty big. There is also the issue of multiplayer. I don't think many people would be on it. Maps can just be taken from standard, but most would be unplayed due to touchscreen disadvantages.
posted
Just a summary of imo how we got to touchscreens being a problem:

ScoreV1 was based around combo

Most combo breaks occur due to a lack of aim or aim & tapping not being correctly coordinated

PP system to not be completely aggravating had to go with a combo based scoring system otherwise low PP scores would replace high more often then they do even now.

Since combo is primarily about aim and missing meant almost no PP, aim was rated extremely highly in the PP system

Players realizing that the fastest way to high ranks was to focus aim improvement

Mappers realizing people preferred aim type maps (because of PP) started mapping lots of jump heavy maps

Touchscreen input device trivializes aim

Due to large quantity and High SR of pure jump maps with the combo/aim PP system, touchscreen is OP.

Solution:
Make Combo less important, ScoreV1 choosing combo as the metric was really the start of all the problems.
posted

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

Just a summary of imo how we got to touchscreens being a problem:

ScoreV1 was based around combo

Most combo breaks occur due to a lack of aim or aim & tapping not being correctly coordinated

PP system to not be completely aggravating had to go with a combo based scoring system otherwise low PP scores would replace high more often then they do even now.

Since combo is primarily about aim and missing meant almost no PP, aim was rated extremely highly in the PP system

Players realizing that the fastest way to high ranks was to focus aim improvement

Mappers realizing people preferred aim type maps (because of PP) started mapping lots of jump heavy maps

Touchscreen input device trivializes aim

Due to large quantity and High SR of pure jump maps with the combo/aim PP system, touchscreen is OP.

Solution:
Make Combo less important, ScoreV1 choosing combo as the metric was really the start of all the problems.
You should really be better at discerning the problem from it's context here. You can draw a "cause and effect" relation back to basically anything, such as the implementation of the ranking system, the release of the game, the invention of touchscreens, the creation of the solar system, etc.

What you then have to do is recognize which of these are actual inherent issues; there's nothing wrong with the game being centered around combo and aim, that's basically how things should work (and any other pp balancing to reward rhythm more doesn't conflict with this idea either), whereas there is an actual issue in having touchscreen make the game much easier to play in certain contexts, regardless of how much pp any of these plays are worth
posted
i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?
posted

lpavbak wrote:

i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?
and how would an automated system be able to tell? this is much easier to take advantage of
posted
Cant we just have moderators monitoring sketchy game play and then they can make the decision.
posted

HelltraX wrote:

Cant we just have moderators monitoring sketchy game play and then they can make the decision.
what are you on about

itsamemarioo wrote:

lpavbak wrote:

i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?
and how would an automated system be able to tell? this is much easier to take advantage of
easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.
posted

lpavbak wrote:

easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.
I was referring to separate leaderboards for mouse and tablet. Separate leaderboards for touchscreen seems like a pretty good long-term solution to me and it's easy to see how an automated system could tell the difference
posted

itsamemarioo wrote:

lpavbak wrote:

easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.
I was referring to separate leaderboards for mouse and tablet. Separate leaderboards for touchscreen seems like a pretty good long-term solution to me and it's easy to see how an automated system could tell the difference
unnecessary, both are 1:1 inputs
posted

lpavbak wrote:

i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?
because mouse and tablet are essentially the same...
posted
*reads 9999 posts calling for new touchscreen-only mode*
osu!stream for PC when
posted
The main issue I think about touch is one not everyone seems to understand, or fully comprahend.

The reason touch is so overpowered is that it allows for multiple inputs. The star and pp system is built over the idea that each object is aimed, and touch allows users to use two or more fingers to input with. This is why Emilia is not an example of "touch" with his 1 pen, although you could argue his playstyle makes it easier for him to play.

This map ( https://osu.ppy.sh/s/575873 ) is an extreme example of what happens when aim is calculated in this incorrect way. This map with two hands is essentially a stack map with annoying music. While most maps are definatly not like this, due to pp mapping (which isn't the problem) there are many maps where using two hands on the only jumps and no streams is piss easy. Take haitai's ending for the perfect example here.

OFC making a new algorithm taking this into account may be too difficult to implament, which is why just nerfing aim stars may be enough. If touch becomes more popular maybe this may be of importance, but for now it is good enough.
posted

itsamemarioo wrote:

lpavbak wrote:

i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?
and how would an automated system be able to tell? this is much easier to take advantage of
Automated systems could tell mouse and tablet apart by looking at how "shaky" the cursor is, or for a more accurate approach, checking what input is used. Tablets and touchscreen are both read differently by the OS compared to mouse and touchpad. They're handled by Windows Ink instead of the normal drivers, which is also why some programs (esp. in-browser apps) will not respond to touch or tablet input but work fine with a mouse.

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.
Not always. If you have a touchscreen with a digitzer ("hover" capabilities) and play with the stylus, there isn't teleportation unless you pull too far away from the screen. You can potentially watch replays of it and be unable to tell if the person is using touchscreen or tablet as the cursor will move the same way.

------------

New TS mod affects not only multi-input players but single-input non-digitizer touchscreen players because they have the same teleportation thing going on. That's unfair and they don't deserve to the weighted the same. I don't think that's even technologically possible, but 1:1 is 1:1 no matter if it's touch, tablet, mouse, or something else so I'm still going to complain lol.
Almost all of the complaints here focus solely on people who play with 10:1 (multiple fingers) input. And no offense but most of y'all seem to be fear mongering without ever trying a touchscreen which is kind of ignorant :/
posted
Why not finish Osu!droid and make a leaderboard for them and touchscreen players.They are using same input(touchscreen) and it would be a fairplay. Osu!droid would give chance for "Mobile MasterRace" to play. This solution isnt cheap ,but is fair for everyone.
posted
So the salt as far as I can see it is ppl feeling treated unfair in a inherently unfair system.

pp is comparing a farmable score that has been farmable ever since on an unfair field aka mods. The heart of competition lies in directly comparing yourself vs another player. So a player with all the "cheesy dirty jump pp" will get his ass handed by a player that is just better regardless of any pp and its origin.

I think its a good thing that ppl are looking into the issue the community has but on a sidenote the community needs to get their stuff straight.

If you want real solid score that has a meaning in a competitive sense you need a score that is based around competition also known as elo like in chess and other good games. The introduction of mods just adds to the confusion since HR cant be compared to HD or vice versa neither can be done to DT to HR to HD or whatever you get the gist. Not in a competitive sense. We aint letting hammer throwers compete against spear throwers in the olympics either eh ?

You'd need a separate elo for every mod so HR ppl competing vs HR ppl and HDHR vs HDHR etc.

My point is that pp doesnt matter and never was a good measure for anything. Its just a little something to keep up the motivation if anything.

So the real question is to the community. What do they want ? Do they just want to compare uncompareable things and feel gud about their sub 1k or do they actually want to compete against each other ? Because "fixing pp" in a competitive sense is only possible if each mod and combination has their own ranking and this probably split up even further by different input devices. By the point you actually reached a really "fair" ground for everybody each ranking list would field only a couple thousand players and some rare mods or combinations even less.

TL:DR; What is it you people really want ? If you want a meaningful competition pp as of now is the wrong system for you anyway.

inb4: but pp can compare no mod to HR and or DT in a meaningful way. Yes it does but then its not a competition anymore. not a fair one that is.
posted
okay, in my opinion, touchscreen are just another way to play like any other, because, I just lack someone can beat 1000+ pp and solve nerf the use of the mouse in the game.
Sorry for this awful English.

the only way is to create a unique touchscreen ranking server that works between touchscreen devices that will support Smartphones and Touchscreen PCs and block the use of the touchscreen on the conventional server.
posted
ppv2.5 hotfix:
touchscreen is now nerfed
lol
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