jesse1412 wrote:

This is an emotionally fueled solution. Long maps are widely considered overrated, it's not an issue with map length. It's not an issue with low accuracy scores. It's an issue with touchscreen.

To imply that a touchscreen player can't do insanely hard maps for a minute straight is ludicrous. If a normal player can manage it, so can a touchscreen player.

This thread should be about the issues with touchscreen IMO, it's hard to discuss the standard PP system when so many people are trying to shoehorn in a fix for touchscreen. There's no system that can compare touchscreen scores with normal scores because they're completely different games.

Its not ok that AIM-based short maps are considered more valuable than long maps that are focused on reading/stamina/memorization.

Short maps has to be nerfed, ill say it again: 20 second map can NOT give 900 pp. No matter how you set the score, it is just makes people who has one strong ability to be higher (lets say Rafis) than people with other strong ability (lets say -GN).

The rewarding system should consider all the players equally. For now we are living in a racist world where "aim players" are better than "reading-focused players" and "stream-focused players".

Talking about touchscreen players - they will NEVER get a good score on any map longer than 1 min with lots of bursts, streams and fast sliders.

The problem was never in touch screen players, the problem is that the system thinks that jumps are way harder than anything else (streams, fast sliders, low ar maps etc).

hi-mei wrote:

ill say it again: 20 second map can NOT give 900 pp.

And I'll say it again. If you have a 20 star 20 second map and someone fc's it, you'd have to be braindead to argue that it should be worth less than 900pp; thus 20 second maps CAN give 900pp.

hi-mei wrote:

Its not ok that AIM-based short maps are considered more valuable than long maps that are focused on reading/stamina/memorization.

The rewarding system should consider all the players equally. For now we are living in a racist world where "aim players" are better than "reading-focused players" and "stream-focused players".

Different argument that I completely agree with. It also, sadly, has no easily implementable solution.

hi-mei wrote:

Talking about touchscreen players - they will NEVER get a good score on any map longer than 1 min with lots of bursts, streams and fast sliders.

True but you're relying on the touchscreen player to only use touchscreen. If the player uses keyboard/mouse/tablet to do the first few stream sections of a map and then swaps to touchscreen for an ending jump spike, it becomes possible.

hi-mei wrote:

The problem was never in touch screen players, the problem is that the system thinks that jumps are way harder than anything else (streams, fast sliders, low ar maps etc).

Completely wrong, did you read the OP and watch the video provided? It explains why. If a tablet player could set the scores that freedom diver set, they'd definitely deserve 800+pp. That play is FUCKING INSANE, regardless of whether jumps are slightly overweighted. PP is mostly not the issue, touchscreen is the issue.

osu!droid

jesse1412 wrote:

And I'll say it again. If you have a 20 star 20 second map and someone fc's it, you'd have to be braindead to argue that it should be worth less than 900pp; thus 20 second maps CAN give 900pp.

you have some misconception of what i meant there, we have a clear comparison of maps with kinda same star rating, right? so lets say, we have these two freedom dive hdhr and haitai 3mod. the first one demands all the possible abilities to get an FC (reading, speed, aim, stamina, memorization), its 4 min and u get a 800 pp for it.

the second one is ONLY focused on ONE aspect of the game, which is aim, and its literally x12 times shorter than freedom dive map.

x12 times, and its only requires one ability to have (FD requires at least 5).

so even if the HAITAI was 4 min with the same jumps all over the table, it would still be less valuable than FD score, cause it requires less anyway.

I know it sounds kinda strange but... Ill never be ok with the thought that less effort gives more rewards. its just not how life works.

True but you're relying on the touchscreen player to only use touchscreen. If the player uses keyboard/mouse/tablet to do the first few stream sections of a map and then swaps to touchscreen for an ending jump spike, it becomes possible.

Cmon, we both know its impossible.

Completely wrong, did you read the OP and watch the video provided? It explains why. If a tablet player could set the scores that freedom diver set, they'd definitely deserve 800+pp. That play is FUCKING INSANE, regardless of whether jumps are slightly overweighted. PP is mostly not the issue, touchscreen is the issue.

I still disagree, if the system would work normally, there wouldnt be a 20 sec 900 pp scores on a map that was made in literally 30-40 mins with no effort at all. People are ranking short maps because of the score in first place, not cause its fun and shit.

Talking about touchscreens again in particular, its just allows AIM-aspect to dissapear from the actual diffuculty, but it struggles with other aspects of the gameplay (reading, streaming etc).

Nerfing the touchscreen will not resolve the issue because people will find other techniques to abuse JUMPS, the issue is more in the map, in my opinion.

Shouldn't it be possible to reduce the aim pp awarded when the cursor teleports?

hi-mei wrote:

you have some misconception of what i meant there, we have a clear comparison of maps with kinda same star rating, right? so lets say, we have these two freedom dive hdhr and haitai 3mod. the first one demads all the possible abilities to get an FC (reading, speed, aim, stamina, memorization), its 4 min and u get a 800 pp for it.

the second one is ONLY focused on ONE aspect of the game, which is aim, and its literally x12 times shorter than freedom dive map.

x12 times, and its only requires one ability to have (FD requires at least 5).

so even if the HAITAI was 4 min with the same jumps all over the table, it would still be less valuable than FD score, cause it requires less anyway.

I know it sounds kinda strange but... Ill never be ok with the thought that less effort gives more rewards. its just not how life works.

This still isn't a better argument in my opinion. Freedom dive hdhr gives less pp despite having more balanced requirements because those requirements aren't as hard (subjectively) as the individual aspect of aim in haitai. Balanced maps maybe could be slightly buffed, but that's just shifting the problem further down the line. Eventually there's going to be a cut off point where balanced maps aren't anywhere near as hard as the imbalanced map, there's no solution to that.

hi-mei wrote:

Cmon, we both know its impossible.

Pressing pause button and swapping peripherals isn't hard at all, let alone impossible.

hi-mei wrote:

I still disagree, if the system would work normally, there wouldnt be a 20 sec 900 pp scores on a map that was made in literally 30-40 mins with no effort at all. People are ranking short maps because of the score in first place, not cause its fun and shit.

Talking about touchscreens again in particular, its just allows AIM-aspect to dissapear from the actual diffuculty, but it struggles with other aspects of the gameplay (reading, streaming etc).

Nerfing the touchscreen will not resolve the issue, the issue is more in the map, in my opinion.

You can't blame the map like that. What if a song literally can't support 1/4 notes without overmapping? What if the song is also short? Is that the maps fault? No of course it isn't. Are you going to blame the song then? Granat fits into both categories comfortably, as an example. The issue isn't the maps, it's touchscreen being incomparable to tablet/mouse.

hi-mei wrote:

Cmon, we both know its impossible.

Let's go back in the time let's just say....2 years maybe. Have you ever thought there will be a 900 pp play, let alone it has been achieved with a touchscreen, a peripherial people didn't really consider using to play osu! back in the days. You are assuming there will be no changes regards to touchscreen and how it is working right now. The future is, and has always been, not clear and what is maybe impossible to do now, most likely will be possible to do in the future.

hi-mei wrote:

I still disagree, if the system would work normally, there wouldnt be a 20 sec 900 pp scores on a map that was made in literally 30-40 mins with no effort at all. People are ranking short maps because of the score in first place, not cause its fun and shit.

We all can agree ppv2 is not the best system, and we all know it has its flaws. It is not a fresh system after all, and with all the systems out there, as the time goes by, people might and will find ways to abuse it. But being this one of the main issues, as mentioned in the OP, it is not about a whole new pp system right now, nor fixing/patching some aspects of the current one, but the nerf of the touchscreen as a device, as it neglects the aim aspect of the pp. Of course if you have an idea about patching something in the current system that does exactly that, then sure you can propose but assuming from your arguments you wanted to change the system from the git-go which is not the main priority right now.

jesse1412 wrote:

This still isn't a better argument in my opinion. Freedom dive hdhr gives less pp despite having more balanced requirements because those requirements aren't as hard (subjectively) as the individual aspect of aim in haitai.

I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with this. It's just that flow-aim isn't considered as important as jumps. We should not even compare those plays, one is a play with the mindset of rhythm game, the other one clearly not. And I thought we had to "click circles to the beat".

hi-mei wrote:

you have some misconception of what i meant there, we have a clear comparison of maps with kinda same star rating, right? so lets say, we have these two freedom dive hdhr and haitai 3mod. the first one demands all the possible abilities to get an FC (reading, speed, aim, stamina, memorization), its 4 min and u get a 800 pp for it.

the second one is ONLY focused on ONE aspect of the game, which is aim, and its literally x12 times shorter than freedom dive map.

x12 times, and its only requires one ability to have (FD requires at least 5).

so even if the HAITAI was 4 min with the same jumps all over the table, it would still be less valuable than FD score, cause it requires less anyway.

I know it sounds kinda strange but... Ill never be ok with the thought that less effort gives more rewards. its just not how life works.

Probably the entire community agrees upon the fact that short, super aim-heavy maps are overweight. But this is not the issue brought up in this thread. It's the fact that an aiming peripheral that requires less practice and completely circumvents aspects of the game that your everyday tablet or mouse has to take into account is currently allowed and thus gives people an advantage in a way that was never "intended" by the global rankings and skews them because of that.

You can't create a pp system that balances a touchscreen and at the same time fairly judges tablets and mice, no matter how much you tweak with length or whatever else. The system was made for tablets and mice, and it won't adjust for anything else because it's a waste of time and is only a temporary solution in the end at best.

jesse1412 wrote:

Pressing pause button and swapping peripherals isn't hard at all, let alone impossible.

How do you imagine that?

So you play, lets say, Apparition, you fc the streams, then you pause, then you switch to the touchscreen to hit jumps, then you see the stream again and the jumps right after it.

You switch again, dont forget to hit that orange thing that appears after pauses.

And if you miss, you gonna start again and again and again and again. Its super inefficient and way less abusable than it is now. Why? because you have to be as good as your touchsceen aim to play these insane streams and patterns.

To summarize our convo:

I do agree that touchscreen is a "cheat", the "cheat" that can only work on specific kind of maps - very short jumpy map, other than that - its super bad.

I do believe that rewarding system should be more balanced, more rewarding for people who likes others type of maps (i.e. -GN, Gayzcmgee, idke). For now, the mapping meta are based around playing short maps with 1/2 spam, that affected the entire generation of mappers and players, and to be fair it has to be addressed at some point.

Its like in any RPG or MOBA, when one class is dominating over all the other classes for more than 3 years, everybody knows that, nobody do shit about it.

Xytox wrote:

Probably the entire community agrees upon the fact that short, super aim-heavy maps are overweight. But this is not the issue brought up in this thread.

Man, its been literally 3 years since this shit started.

80% of top 50 are DT tv-size maps abusers.

It affects players to focus on short low effort maps, also it affects mappers who wants their maps to be played, so they are finding low effort short maps are way more profitable to spend their time on than making long maps with variety of stuff in it.

I mean, while we are at it, isnt it the best time to fix it all together?

Canadian wrote:

Shouldn't it be possible to reduce the aim pp awarded when the cursor teleports?

pp works by giving it the achieved score and difficulty of the map. It knows nothing about the specifics of the replay and might require infrastructure change to implement.

Other than that, it sounds like a plausible solution.

hi-mei wrote:

I think its a long awaited time for a meticulous review of how PP score is calculated.

There is a very tangible difference between 4 min 7* HDHR map fc and 20 seconds HDHRDT haitai FC.

This thing HAS to be addressed at some point, I truly hope that the solution will be finded and we gonna shift from TV-size farming meta to something a bit different.

I am not a math-guru, but I can say that the formula of PP calculation is struggling when it comes to sliders.

Maps with lots of sliders gives less score, doesnt matter if the actual difficulty is higher than the common TV-size anime maps.

So the main thing that comes to my mind is that PP system doesnt care how you hit sliders, how much input sliders are having on the player during the gameplay, how it affects reading and such.

But for temporary solution I can suggest to nerf how much PP is coming from short maps, it is just not ok that 20 second map gives 900 pp. Its just wrong.

I'm personally of the same opinion that the PP algorithmn needs to award stamina more than it currently does. While longer maps do give more PP it becomes extremely hard to get any PP from them as 1 miss in the middle of the map and you don't get anything for it. If the song is 5 minutes long it is much more challenging to stay consistent for 5 minutes than it is to stay consistent for 30 seconds. Easiest solution to this would be to simply make combo irrelevant and have PP calculated from Accuracy and Number of misses. You'd still likely miss more times on a long map than a short map but the length bonus would counteract the number of misses and make long maps more viable.

Also the current score meta would need to be altered as well as combo is still very much relevant in that and in order for a # of misses system to actually have a 1x play where you missed in the center to beat a 10x play where you comboed the first 2/3 of the song and then started missing periodically in the last 1/3 it would have to be altered to this.

Also by having combo less important Accuracy becomes more important and helps to negate alot of the issue with touchscreen.

I don't think touchscreen needs to be on a different leaderboard or even get a mod reduction thing to scan plays to see if they used a touchscreen. I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs

The problem with osu! is that it introduces an aspect other rhythm games don't have. If you don't force an FC out of a player for performance points, you'll definitely see mapping and playstyles evolve into a new kind of meta where intentionally missing one or two really hard jumps for the sake of comfortably hitting the rest is common, ruining the intended way to play the game to begin with.

The maps to abuse pp in such a way might not exist yet, but neither did the extreme tv size jump maps back when ppv2 was first introduced.

I just wanted to comment in order to explain why I'm very against deciding on solutions by listing a couple of options and then having the community vote on them.

Voting works great for producing correct solutions when the entire voting population has full information about the problem and has heard all the arguments. Like guessing the number of marbles in a transparent jar: voting gets precise answers pretty reliably. But for problems like "touchscreen and osu! PP", it's not the right tool. The osu!team and/or a few dedicated volunteers can think through the problem and proposed solutions in way more detail with way more complexity than is possible to expect from the entire voting population. Most voters will probably not even read this entire thread before voting, which puts a very hard limit to the number of arguments that are accounted for when solutions are decided by popular vote. (Even if you think you will think through the problem in high detail, and read up on everybody else's arguments, do you really expect this of most of the other voters?)

(Note: This is not (like, triple-not, absolutely not, not even the slightest) an invitation to speak about US politics in this thread, only comment if you wish to talk about the merits of using voting as a tool for deciding on the best solutions to the osu!touchscreen problem.)

abraker wrote:

Canadian wrote:

Shouldn't it be possible to reduce the aim pp awarded when the cursor teleports?

pp works by giving it the achieved score and difficulty of the map. It knows nothing about the specifics of the replay and might require infrastructure change to implement.

Other than that, it sounds like a plausible solution.

This is the best solution I've heard so far. In fact, I think it's more than "best", I think it's a good solution. Except I don't know how to implement it. It probably takes more work than a temporary solution can afford... Though I personally don't mind living with no solution until the proper solution is rolled out.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs

I haven't heard this argument mentioned anywhere, so I thought I should mention it (even though this thread should primarily be about TS). I like the current system of awarding score for higher combo, where you get a higher score if you hold a combo but miss at the end rather than the middle. The reason I like it is that it adds suspense to the game. As an example: I love watching tournaments, but I think the tournaments would be less fun to watch if suspense of the type "can rrtyui maintain his combo to the end of Image Material or not?!" was lessened. : )

peppy wrote:

Touchscreens greatly reduce the difficulty of aim as players using them now have up to 10 localised input points (their fingers) which both need to travel less distance and can preempt where then need to be for future hit objects.

peppy wrote:

A proposed solution of a touchscreen mod which devalues touchscreen pp values across the board may be something we apply as a stop-gap measure, for instance.

interesting
would like to see the status of this ^ ^

hi-mei wrote:

It affects players to focus on short low effort maps, also it affects mappers who wants their maps to be played, so they are finding low effort short maps are way more profitable to spend their time on than making long maps with variety of stuff in it.

in my opinion, the best way to fix this is to change PP system, having it rewarding different skills independently, like aim/speed/accuracy/reading/stamina and others skills i may forgot, something like how PP+ does (with better wheighting of course, the actual one isn't really accurate imo), so mappers that absolutely want their map being played wouldn't be forced to focus on aim focused map (because actually the game values aim more than anything else), that would actually add diversity on mapping (even if it'll end up the same as the actual mapping meta, they'll try to do the easiest overwheigted maps in X skill, but since it'll add more diversity i think it's still a good thing).

Having different wheightings would make it so if touchscreens plays a really short map with heavy aiming, easy flow and full of 1/2 rhythms (let's say haitai), they would get full PP from the 'aim' part of the map, but negtlecting accuracy, stamina, reading, etc.

Then also this could create news leaderboards per skill (aim, speed, etc) creating new competitions and new goals for players. But i guess it would be pretty hard to implement, i have no idea.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs

then FCing a map wouldn't be as rewarding as it is now, if you miss on a hard part or a slow part would mean exactly the same. FCing is still something that has do be rewarded, osu! combo wheighting is still a unique part of the game (as any other rhythm game doesn't use), making it important is what is making osu! unique imo. It makes you really wants to FC maps, and is rewarding you.

Thank you for the shoutout peppy

smooches

Hi, great post!
Regarding the pp algorithm, I think that there might be a solution? Im not very familiar with touchscreen, but im assuming that its pretty hard to do streams on it, isnt it? Because I rarely see any tablet plays that involed a lot of stream parts( like ror, freedoom dive etc) and mostly jump maps like granat. So why not buff streaming pp? If you dont have the way i think it would be pretty easy solution, like what is streaming? Its when theres little to no time between pressing notes, so just check that(the timing between notes and the ammount of notes pressed after the timing threshold is at right value), im sure you can figure it out. And its not necessary that it should be increased a lot, a tad bit should be alright.

Good luck with this problem,
-Atago

it seems the touchscreen only leaderboards is the only way that works, maybe I'm stupid but I don't think there have any methods to balance the pp system between normal players and touchscreen players. some maps is extremely easier for touchscreen, so let's say if u nerf aim only pp on short map. so what if a tablet or mouse player did the same record like touchscreen but they can't get high pp cuz of this nerf? that will be extremely unfair for tablet/mouse player.

buff the stream pp is also not works, it will destroy the balance no matter how u change it. if u want to put touchscreen players on the same leaderboard, maybe the only way is touchscreen players get touchscreen only pp system but that's even harder so better make a touchscreen only leaderboards.

sorry for my bad english.

hi-mei wrote:

No matter how you set the score, it is just makes people who has one strong ability to be higher (lets say Rafis) than people with other strong ability (lets say -GN).

Yeah, because Rafis totally can't do anything other than TV-size DT maps.

Anyway, I don't agree with all the arguments being made that short maps are inherently overweighted. Yes, sure, there are more farmable TV-size or shorter maps (my own top plays are pretty saturated with them) than longer ones, but no one says Dopamine is "overweighted" despite being less than two minutes long. Length isn't the only factor, and people overestimate its importance without regard to any sort of nuance. The same could be applied to aim - no one says Gangsta is overweighted (at least not in the past 3 years or so) even though it's literally just fast DT jumps - other factors, such as angles and the lack of a short difficulty spike, also should be taken into account.

Actually, Gangsta is probably a good map to take into account here given that half of its DT fcs have been using touchscreen. Very few people would say Gangsta is inherently overweighted, but it's still abused by touchscreen - so the whole argument of "everything can be balanced if you nerf this specific aspect of the game" is overly optimistic and lacks nuance.

Thx for responding to this issue so quickly peppy. As a touchscreen player, the only worry I have is that this touchscreen mod idea devalues all plays no matter the kind of map. While I know it is difficult to know if a map is a jump heavy map or a stream heavy map, I still feel like a solution like this would do more harm than good esp on more modern maps. For example, if I do well on a map that's more stream heavy or has intricate patterns, I don't think my play should be worth less than that of another player. While I understand that changes do need to be made, I only hope that your longterm solution isn't so overarching.

I'd much rather see a game mode added to emulate jubeat than time wasted trying to "fix ladder" so to speak. That game makes much better use of the multi-press capabilities of a touchscreen such that it would be strange to see people play osu over it given the choice.

I don't see touchscreen as being any different than a net decked aggro list in popular CCGs. In those games you just accept the fact that "high rank" consists mainly of people who mindlessly grind aggro lists 10-12 hours a day. These "high rank" players aren't the ones putting up consistent results in tournaments where it actually matters. I mean, you'd have to be a fool to think a touchscreen player could even make it out of group stages in an osu tournament (ignoring the degenerate case of being carried through team tournaments).

Good players tend to end up at high rank but high rank does not make a player good. It's true in most online games that have a ladder and I find it strange that there are people still unwilling to accept this paradigm.

People really are contradicting themselves. When the last highest pp record was set, people are awaiting for new records. But now, when a new record is set, people complaning about it because it is set by a touchscreen player. If new records is what everyone wants, why they complaint about it when the score is there, just because it is a touchscreen play? It is acheived from a legit play and not just aimbot or anything like that, so I don't see any problems with it.

Look, I don't care any of this bullshit, partly because I don't play STD, another part is he didn't do anything wrong or cheated the scores. I know it is basically unreacheable with normal gameplay styles like tab or mouse, but who cares? If the score is set without cheating, then it is set. There's no reason for anyone to ban the score just because "you're a touchscreen player".

So, just stop the drama from this score, and just accept the fact that freedomdiver set a 900 pp scores with a touchscreen. If you can't accept the score, go for it. Rant anyway you want. Complain and hate him as much as you want to. That will help nothing.

Who knows, maybe someday, someone, will acheive a 900 pp play with a tablet or mouse? Time will tell. Just like Cookiezi's 817 pp record on Remote Control +HDDT, this record will be taken down too. How long? No one knows. But from my view, this score is legit and it should'nt be banned, anytime. Just let this pp record act as a target for the rest of the players to aim for.

-ZethZ161

Note: this is all my personal opinions, so if you want to, hate it. i wont complain since everyone has a different perspective on everything

^
agree

I didn't wanted to state my opinion on reddit due how cancerous is that community (and this opinion could never see a daylight).

1. Touchscreens

Main difficulty to play on this device is input lag which is significantly higher than any mouse/tablet (imagine that random 5$ mouse is better at this point). By hardware, this device is not build for rapid movements and tapping at this kind of speed. Unless you are using high-end device (like Surface Pro with dedicated CPU, not ARM/Mini like Atom) this input lag just increase due that CPU needs to handle game calculation and parse touch input (which works a bit differently from CPU code point of view than external pointing device). There is a reason why many old good TS plays are with EZ mode. Having good acc on high OD exceeding 9-10 is a challenge, big one, I don't say it is impossible but for sure it is challenging.

2. Players

Honestly, how many of them are here? 10-20? 100? 1000? Like seriously. They are a non-visible percentage of playerbase, yet enraged community for completely stupid reason wants to separate them from everyone else. Personally I don't care, at all. While literally eating popcorn, consuming energy drink and reading reddit most of this people made me laugh and facepalm a lot with idiocy of "how touchscreen players are bad" / "ban them" / "separate from playerbase". Don't come with ranking and pp because it is already inflated with imbalanced pp made by few mappers which focused on ONLY ONE skill - aim - yet you complain when someone is using a device made specifically to play an aim based map. Pointless, not gonna comment more, there is nothing to say about that. It is just hypocrisy.

3. Maps, mapping

I see main problem here. What maps can handle touchscreen? Pure aim based with almost no triples / bursts. What "meta" we have now? Inflate aim pp with 30s maps. I could ask - where is balance of TV size maps which were build with pure difficulty containing aim based patterns, bursts and a little of semi-tech (flow/anti-flow) patterns? It doesn't exist now. How about I ask TS players to achieve same on for example Kuchizuke Diamond Lemur? Nope, sorry - bursts/triples/antiflow will keep them away, despite this is one of heavy overweighted maps. Daidai? Same - nope, lots of triples and burst in middle. Koigokoro? Same - nope. You get it? Before - TV size, mid/full-size maps were balanced around several skillsets and they gave either balanced amount of pp or were developed to be overweighted but in general aimed to force player to be efficient in not only one but at least 2 skills at once.

What it is right now? HaiTai, Cookie Monster (specifically map which made me quit STD), spam of Harumachi (where only one contain "bursts", god bless this one difficulty). Sorry guys but it is YOUR fault for accepting this maps. It is your fault that mappers are not punished for making such maps. YOU are supposed to notice them and veto shit out of them.

Do you think situation like that could happen when you didn't allow mappers to make 30s pure aim, extremely overweighted maps? I doubt it.

4. Ranking and competition

Short - please don't speak about ranking being competitive when right now whole idea of pp ranking is an "shooter based game with rhythm in background". Ranking was competitive till mid of 2015 where whole idea of forcing aim based maps started, where "one trick ponies" were punished and they were halted at certain point for not knowing how to read complex patterns, how to stream, how to burst, how to jump etc.

TL;DR: Personally, I don't mind touchscreen players, more, I pray for more scores like that to expose flaws of current mapping meta. Maybe players start veto this 30s-1m pure aim based overweighted maps and force mappers to make something "quality". It is not device problem - it is pure mapping problem which comes to - pure human problem. You opened doors for touchscreen players to make this scores. Deal with it.

ZethZ161 wrote:

People really are contradicting themselves. When the last highest pp record was set, people are awaiting for new records. But now, when a new record is set, people complaning about it because it is set by a touchscreen player. If new records is what everyone wants, why they complaint about it when the score is there, just because it is a touchscreen play? It is acheived from a legit play and not just aimbot or anything like that, so I don't see any problems with it.

Look, I don't care any of this bullshit, partly because I don't play STD, another part is he didn't do anything wrong or cheated the scores. I know it is basically unreacheable with normal gameplay styles like tab or mouse, but who cares? If the score is set without cheating, then it is set. There's no reason for anyone to ban the score just because "you're a touchscreen player".

So, just stop the drama from this score, and just accept the fact that freedomdiver set a 900 pp scores with a touchscreen. If you can't accept the score, go for it. Rant anyway you want. Complain and hate him as much as you want to. That will help nothing.

Who knows, maybe someday, someone, will acheive a 900 pp play with a tablet or mouse? Time will tell. Just like Cookiezi's 817 pp record on Remote Control +HDDT, this record will be taken down too. How long? No one knows. But from my view, this score is legit and it should'nt be banned, anytime. Just let this pp record act as a target for the rest of the players to aim for.

-ZethZ161

Note: this is all my personal opinions, so if you want to, hate it. i wont complain since everyone has a different perspective on everything

No one is complaining about freedomdiver, trying to ban them or saying that touchscreen players are doing anything wrong. The issue is simply that the ranking system is designed with the purpose of awarding rank to players who can do the most difficult things, and using touchscreen makes it much easier (unfairly so) to attain rank on this system. Therefore the system is failing its purpose, and this thread here to find a way make it better. The blame goes to Reality for making it hard to create a good PP system, not to TS players for having fun playing their style and trying to do their best. : )

lets suppose that 900pp score was done with a tablet+kb playstyle
would you guys be complaining?

also mapping has nothing to do with how the pp system works. there were "pp" maps even before pp existed

pkhg wrote:

also mapping has nothing to do with how the pp system works. there were "pp" maps even before pp existed

Yes they were but how many of them? How they were builded? I played them too but well, what it is now it's just out of hand. Older "pp maps" in comparison to actual once are perfectly balanced TV/full-size maps, especially pre-"mid 2015" once. Period.
PP algorithm is impossible to change at this state if you don't want to punish other playstyles / skillsets.
What is left?
Change mapping and disallow making such abuse.

There will always be a “loot cave” :v

and here i am thinking that "pp mapping" is just a meme made by some players just because that particular map gives more number of pp compared to other similar maps :thonking:

inb4 most mappers actually map for pp eksdee

[Taiga] wrote:

4. Ranking and competition

Short - please don't speak about ranking being competitive when right now whole idea of pp ranking is an "shooter based game with rhythm in background". Ranking was competitive till mid of 2015 where whole idea of forcing aim based maps started, where "one trick ponies" were punished and they were halted at certain point for not knowing how to read complex patterns, how to stream, how to burst, how to jump etc.

TL;DR: Personally, I don't mind touchscreen players, more, I pray for more scores like that to expose flaws of current mapping meta. Maybe players start veto this 30s-1m pure aim based overweighted maps and force mappers to make something "quality". It is not device problem - it is pure mapping problem which comes to - pure human problem. You opened doors for touchscreen players to make this scores. Deal with it.

agreed completely with everything in this post

the way i see the situation over time is

1 - flawed pp system ->
2 - people discover the flaws in the system ->
3 - mappers make maps to exploit those flaws ->
4 - people like those maps because pp ->
5 - mappers make more and more of them which are even more dramatically flawed ->
6 - touchscreen can be viable for unthinkable pp plays on some of these maps

and people are thinking that suddenly removing touchscreen will fix the problem, but you really need to look back as far as step 3 at minimum, or ideally back to step 1

the problem is that the game is kinda beyond fixing due to the mentality of much of the playerbase, and due to stuff like #4 the meta probably wouldn't shift at all for a long time. for example if pp was removed today, people would still map the same way because people like the mapping style. if pp never existed (or if the system was 100% perfect on release which is impossible) then there wouldn't have been a step 2 or 3, and so on

tl;dr the problem isn't touchscreen, touchscreen has the potential to amplify the problem and peoples' perception of it

Catgirl wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

4. Ranking and competition

Short - please don't speak about ranking being competitive when right now whole idea of pp ranking is an "shooter based game with rhythm in background". Ranking was competitive till mid of 2015 where whole idea of forcing aim based maps started, where "one trick ponies" were punished and they were halted at certain point for not knowing how to read complex patterns, how to stream, how to burst, how to jump etc.

TL;DR: Personally, I don't mind touchscreen players, more, I pray for more scores like that to expose flaws of current mapping meta. Maybe players start veto this 30s-1m pure aim based overweighted maps and force mappers to make something "quality". It is not device problem - it is pure mapping problem which comes to - pure human problem. You opened doors for touchscreen players to make this scores. Deal with it.

agreed completely with everything in this post

the way i see the situation over time is

1 - flawed pp system ->
2 - people discover the flaws in the system ->
3 - mappers make maps to exploit those flaws ->
4 - people like those maps because pp ->
5 - mappers make more and more of them which are even more dramatically flawed ->
6 - touchscreen can be viable for unthinkable pp plays on some of these maps

and people are thinking that suddenly removing touchscreen will fix the problem, but you really need to look back as far as step 3 at minimum, or ideally back to step 1

the problem is that the game is kinda beyond fixing due to the mentality of much of the playerbase, and due to stuff like #4 the meta probably wouldn't shift at all for a long time. for example if pp was removed today, people would still map the same way because people like the mapping style. if pp never existed (or if the system was 100% perfect on release which is impossible) then there wouldn't have been a step 2 or 3, and so on

tl;dr the problem isn't touchscreen, touchscreen has the potential to amplify the problem and peoples' perception of it

That some nice post , as you can see in *problem chain* we just need to change pp gain from long distance jumps
In my opinion there must be some distance lock for pp gain , like half of screen distance between hit circles can give you max pp gain (ofc much less than now ) , distances above it will just give same pp . Its just simple explanation of idea

I originally posted this on the osugame subreddit, yet it got less than 200 views. (30 or so mine editing lol) but here I am presenting my own idea.

Recent (and past) events regarding touchscreen have been a discussion topic for everyone here, and yet, no one has presented an idea that could work to make this game enjoyable and fair for everyone, again.


And so I was thinking, people want a new leaderboard for touchscreen players, right? Well... let me suggest... what about a new leaderboard for everyone? Not a pp based leaderboard, but a League-based/MMR/ELO one.


How though? It looks impossible. Well... Let's give it a try anyway.


Imagine a world, where mappers aim for actual rhythm heavy maps, complex and fun over just triangle jumps and pp.
Where your rank somewhat reflects your ability in the game and your ability to follow the rhythm of a song regardless of which one is it.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Let's make two leaderboards.

The pp leaderboard we have right now.

And, a new leaderboard for ranked multiplayer matches.


Enter multiplayer, click in ranked play and enter a random room of either "FFA" or 1v1. Find a random map, ranked over a new criteria where maps can actually get pushed to pp-leaderboards or league-leaderboards.
You have one try. Give it your best, and depending on your performance you'll get more or less points for a leaderboard.


It's basically the same system from games like League of Legends, Overwatch, etc. I'm actually surprised this hasn't been implemented yet.

________________________________________________________________________________________

**Questions:**

Q- Now, how do we get people to select the MapPools for each league?

A- Well, this is the hardest part, since people should have to go manually over every ranked map (or at least most of them) and mark them as able for league or not, and which league. After that, it's the same process as ranking has right now but with the possibility to aim for league or ppranking. (Think of it as people aiming for loved)

Q- Coming with Lazer.

A- ™

Q- Osu! is historically singleplayer, a small amount of people play multiplayer. Having a ranking system dependent on MP may force players to play the game in a way they don't like, at the pace of the slowest map downloader, and at the whim of whoever is choosing the maps.

A- Multiplayer here is more of a channel than a way of playing, meaning, the same would be achieved if you entered a room with 7 people without name and without chat, just playing. And if things run slow, timers. Since it should be automated with bancho, at least, in the ranked setting.

Q-"You have one try". Standard osu is a game that absolutely contains a large factor of luck. If you rush one note then you can miss an entire stream and lose 10% accuracy, and if combo counts then everyone is fucked. Having one try will make people smash their monitors.

A- ScoreV2. Also, that's the way this is intended to work. Consistency and rhythm reading.

Q- Ask more questions, they might get a response here.


________________________________________________________________________________________

**Problems:**

-Requires a lot of work, but, really, can we achieve a good community driven game without effort? It's what made this game so beautiful for all of us in the first place. (Without underestimating the devs effort, of course)
________________________________________________________________________________________

**Solved Issues:**


* Touchscreens won't abuse (all) the systems.

* Touchscreen players are still able to play.

* pp is still a thing. I like pp myself, but it's as flawed as an Ubisoft game.

* Mappers can aim for things other than pp! (pishifat has had a lot of influence over me)

* Team rankings? Unranked Multiplayer! Technical maps multiplayer! an actual osu! eSport?! You call it, possibilities could be infinite with just a little work.

* Tournament settings would be the standard, which will skyrocket the level of the current big tournaments.

* osu! would now be, at least, 50% of a rhythm game. (current: 5%)

________________________________________________________________________________________

I'm sorry that I present this post in an ugly text format. I don't know anything about programming and I thought I should jump on the bandwagon of the recent leaderboard abusing events.
This isn't perfect at all, but it's what I think would be a beautiful approach that will make more and more people enjoy this game.
Please discuss, add ideas, I believe this can be the moment to make a change. Together.

Thanks for reading. (A lot of edits just went into readability of the post.)

No TL;DR. I believe this is important

Mio Winter wrote:

ZethZ161 wrote:

People really are contradicting themselves. When the last highest pp record was set, people are awaiting for new records. But now, when a new record is set, people complaning about it because it is set by a touchscreen player. If new records is what everyone wants, why they complaint about it when the score is there, just because it is a touchscreen play? It is acheived from a legit play and not just aimbot or anything like that, so I don't see any problems with it.

Look, I don't care any of this bullshit, partly because I don't play STD, another part is he didn't do anything wrong or cheated the scores. I know it is basically unreacheable with normal gameplay styles like tab or mouse, but who cares? If the score is set without cheating, then it is set. There's no reason for anyone to ban the score just because "you're a touchscreen player".

So, just stop the drama from this score, and just accept the fact that freedomdiver set a 900 pp scores with a touchscreen. If you can't accept the score, go for it. Rant anyway you want. Complain and hate him as much as you want to. That will help nothing.

Who knows, maybe someday, someone, will acheive a 900 pp play with a tablet or mouse? Time will tell. Just like Cookiezi's 817 pp record on Remote Control +HDDT, this record will be taken down too. How long? No one knows. But from my view, this score is legit and it should'nt be banned, anytime. Just let this pp record act as a target for the rest of the players to aim for.

-ZethZ161

Note: this is all my personal opinions, so if you want to, hate it. i wont complain since everyone has a different perspective on everything

No one is complaining about freedomdiver, trying to ban them or saying that touchscreen players are doing anything wrong. The issue is simply that the ranking system is designed with the purpose of awarding rank to players who can do the most difficult things, and using touchscreen makes it much easier (unfairly so) to attain rank on this system. Therefore the system is failing its purpose, and this thread here to find a way make it better. The blame goes to Reality for making it hard to create a good PP system, not to TS players for having fun playing their style and trying to do their best. : )

Well, I mean people are ranting anywhere in YouTube right now, so yeah.
I probably get the wrong point here, but hey, I'm also exposing the hate on TS players, so I think that kinda fits in the forum since it's related about the disagreement from a lot of players about his score.
AND YES, pp system is broken.

pp system is broken?nah touchscreen wouldn't be a problem if we wouldn't have 1 minute aim only maps that were made specifically for pp, it's the playerbase fault, you literally designed maps to be played like this for your own greed and now you cry about it, start mapping and playing for the fun of a rhythm game and maps like haitai and touchscreen problems wouldnt exist

Manuel Bartual wrote:

I originally posted this on the osugame subreddit, yet it got less than 200 views. (30 or so mine editing lol) but here I am presenting my own idea.

Recent (and past) events regarding touchscreen have been a discussion topic for everyone here, and yet, no one has presented an idea that could work to make this game enjoyable and fair for everyone, again.

OT - because reddit is not for discussions, mods there allow naming and shaming, false accusations, all kind of shit, even against reddit rules. Don't expect from most cancerous place in this community to have any kind of discussion besides of pointless drama and river of tears from 6-digits.

Manuel Bartual wrote:

And so I was thinking, people want a new leaderboard for touchscreen players, right? Well... let me suggest... what about a new leaderboard for everyone? Not a pp based leaderboard, but a League-based/MMR/ELO one.


How though? It looks impossible. Well... Let's give it a try anyway.


Imagine a world, where mappers aim for actual rhythm heavy maps, complex and fun over just triangle jumps and pp.
Where your rank somewhat reflects your ability in the game and your ability to follow the rhythm of a song regardless of which one is it.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Let's make two leaderboards.

The pp leaderboard we have right now.

And, a new leaderboard for ranked multiplayer matches.


Enter multiplayer, click in ranked play and enter a random room of either "FFA" or 1v1. Find a random map, ranked over a new criteria where maps can actually get pushed to pp-leaderboards or league-leaderboards.
You have one try. Give it your best, and depending on your performance you'll get more or less points for a leaderboard.


It's basically the same system from games like League of Legends, Overwatch, etc. I'm actually surprised this hasn't been implemented yet.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Idea is not bad but let me try to argue about it a little:

1. Speaking of ladders - Creating new leaderboard brings with it resources, coding work which means, lots of time spent to implement another ladder. Speaking of "1v1" / "FFA" - it require 2 separate ladders, so right now we have 3. Decent infrastructure handles this with 6 dedicated servers (3 database servers and 3 web + computing servers, more advanced one with also add database replication servers for stability and backup). Do you see cost now? We need to work around this what we have now.

2. Speaking of creating maps - There will be always mappers who exploit system to influent infinite amount of performance points into system, you cannot avoid this unless playerbase will not disagree with this and connect in veto their creations. From other way, QAT (as name say - Quality Assurance Team) is responsible to not allow this kind of maps to be ranked, yet they basically let them pass in the name of "They are perfectly fine with ranking criteria". Note that ranking criteria doesn't say anything about quality which means - you can create a 100% horizontal / vertical full jump map and as far as it fits song and will be perfect in term of ranking criteria, it can be ranked. Yet - does repetitive patterns from second one to second 30 will have quality? No.

Community chosen this kind of behavior, they basically agreed with low quality overweighted maps and simply gave green light to mappers to create them. I don't have any problem to QAT because as far as community disagree, they do their job and stop map from being ranked. But it could be better from their position.

Manuel Bartual wrote:

**Questions:**

Q- Now, how do we get people to select the MapPools for each league?

A- Well, this is the hardest part, since people should have to go manually over every ranked map (or at least most of them) and mark them as able for league or not, and which league. After that, it's the same process as ranking has right now but with the possibility to aim for league or ppranking. (Think of it as people aiming for loved)

There is another option which require huge load of work for several people proficient in mapping and high tier gameplay at same time (and hard to find this one right now... mapper who is low/mid 5-digit will never know how his 6* map plays in real if he is not able to play it efficiently, I know this from my own experience). Get all "well made" maps, mark them, tag them for mods, tag them for difficulty, let "Random Randy" roll maps for polls.

Manuel Bartual wrote:

**Solved Issues:**


* Touchscreens won't abuse (all) the systems.

* Touchscreen players are still able to play.

* pp is still a thing. I like pp myself, but it's as flawed as an Ubisoft game.

* Mappers can aim for things other than pp! (pishifat has had a lot of influence over me)

* Team rankings? Unranked Multiplayer! Technical maps multiplayer! an actual osu! eSport?! You call it, possibilities could be infinite with just a little work.

* Tournament settings would be the standard, which will skyrocket the level of the current big tournaments.

* osu! would now be, at least, 50% of a rhythm game. (current: 5%)

As I said, touchscreen is not a problem. It is only for people who doesn't realize fact that for example in 2015, this hardware had REALLY low amount of playable maps, there is even topic in GnR with list of playable maps for touchscreen. Whole boom started when mappers started abusing ranking criteria + pp formula and made 30s to 1m super short, pure aim based maps which are perfect for touchscreen. They went crazy with 6* less than 1 min map, like WTF? And now people are crying that touchscreen is broken.

osu! is still a rhythm game, there is great amount of good maps (look at RLC, Pishi, fanzhen, 09kami and more mappers who said "No" to pp mapping and still making amazing full size balanced maps and from semi to full tech maps) which require more than just jumping ability. Problem is in mappers who influence massive amount of pp for one particular skillset and onwards, breaking completely ranking allowing one-trick-ponies to gain way higher rank than they initially deserve.

I think that we don't need separate leaderboards, as they are by score, not PP.
The high aim PP from touchscreen plays is problem, right? We just need to detect touchplay then!

We don't need to nerf aim too, maybe just push some other skills up by little (especially on highest star rating?), but that's another matter that falls into PP system and should probably be discussed separately. So, let's focus on touchscreens.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I think that very good idea for solution could be this simple one (simple idea, not implementation) :


→ Detect touchscreen play and evaluate it using different algorithm.


Let's assume that we have an algorithm to detect touchscreen play.
That is, to almost certainly say, if it's a touchscreen play, where by almost certainly I mean a case, where probability for it not being touchscreen play is very close to zero.

Technically, I think it shouldn't be hard in theory, but I am not sure about "precision" of current replays, maybe on lower performance and rapid jumps it can be little problematic with how currently replays works? Well, increasing precision can probably create other problems, there will be much bigger data transfer required to submit all new, bigger replays, etc., I don't really know much about this stuff, in terms of how much of it osu! requires, but let's assume that if there's this kind of problem, then we can eventually "improve" the replays and solve submission issues too.

Now, basing on how fast cursor changes position, giving enough precision, it should be relatively easy to conclude, if it's a touchscreen play, right? And by touchscreen play I mean "teleporting movement", an instantaneous shift in cursor position.
The changes in position that are very small could be disregarded, as stuff like clicking overlapping circles isn't really important here (the big jumps are our issue) and replay's precision requires us to set some limits.

Now, when the score gets submitted, it's being processed and if a "touchscreen play" segments are detected, they are evaluated with different PP algorithm. Or the whole score is simply marked as "touchscreen" and evaluated differently.

What do you think about this?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

There are at least 2 issues or things to do, that we have with this from the very start though:

(1) New PP algorithm for touchscreen segments is needed. Or maybe more like just touchscreen aim PP tweak, while leaving some of the rest of PP (streaming, acc?) as normal?


(2) Not sure how much more computational resources it would take, to analyze every new best submitted score in search of touchscreen play segments, but maybe there's actually no real problem here? If we was to simply mark a whole score as a touchscreen play, we just need to find an instances of touchscreen plays in it, so probably not much of trouble here?

(I assume that it could be an overkill, if we would want to go ham and try to judge which parts of score are touchscreen play, and which are not, in case of mixed plays? It's so marginal that just marking play as normal/touchscreen should be okay, especially as doing something like this would require to "analyze" whole score, which is redundant here)
(optional)(And if we decide to not simply mark the whole play as touchscreen, in case of "mixed input devices" plays, then we would need to reasonably fuse "normal" and "touchscreen" PP)

Just change the ranking criteria avoid sub 1:20 maps unrank <1min maps and call it a day

Manuel Bartual wrote:

Just change the ranking criteria avoid sub 1:20 maps unrank <1min maps and call it a day

NO.

Linada wrote:

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs

then FCing a map wouldn't be as rewarding as it is now, if you miss on a hard part or a slow part would mean exactly the same. FCing is still something that has do be rewarded, osu! combo wheighting is still a unique part of the game (as any other rhythm game doesn't use), making it important is what is making osu! unique imo. It makes you really wants to FC maps, and is rewarding you.

I think you misunderstand me. I think an FC should still be awarded, I just think that misses should be more penalized, and the combo element removed.

Just to put it in perspective, assume you are taking a math test and you teacher graded on question combo. You get every single question right on this 100 question test except the 50th question. Well sorry to say but your grade on that test is now terrible. Meanwhile other kid in your class gets first 80 questions right and then screws up 10 of the last 20. Their score is now considered better than yours. Don’t you see how asinine that is? Why should a kid that missed more problems get a better score?

Following “negative” things combo based scoring/PP causes:
1. Touchscreen with jump maps as we’ve seen here. If ACC is more valued over Combo touchscreen will be more balanced with mouse/tablet
2. Short map incentivizing. While yes long maps give more PP, it is much much easier to FC a short map than a long map due to stamina/consistency.
3. Mods are underweighted. In any competitive play, the mod play will only win if they have equal (or very close combo) to a nomod score making usage of mods usually a bad idea as the chances of a miss go up tremendously.
4. Difficulty spikes in maps. When combo is all that really matters, Maps that have insane cross-screen jumps as the final pattern while the rest was easy will still award insane PP. If # of misses was the meta, players missing here would be penalized heavily just like if they missed in the middle of the map making these sudden difficulty spike maps not as free of PP and more deserving of their SR.

Scoring system suggestion (like Score V2 but with a twist):
1. Score cap of 1 million (just makes things cleaner, spinners could make it exceed 1 mil slightly)
2. Accuracy = 300,000 points
3. All hit objects hit = 700,000 points (each Hit object hit awards a even split amount of this 700,000 NO combo multiplier, each miss removes 5% of Hit object score but never to reduce below 0 points. Basically if you miss 20x+ you’d get nothing from the “combo” side of the score/PP)
4. Mods allow max scoring also to exceed 1 million with current multiplier system. (Since a mod like HR adds 6% score and a miss removes 5% of 70% of the score = ~ 3.5% score loss per miss, a 1x mod play will beat a nomod FC (with same ACC), but multiple misses will cause nomod score to win. This makes mod play much more viable and encouraged while not letting it overpower)

PP system will still probably need mod bonus calculated separately from score as difficulty of specific mods on maps varies.