I think most of us can agree that the pp system isn't perfect. A lot of people claim that it leads to the gamification of mapping, or unrealistic portrayals of player skill. I'm not entirely sure if I agree with this premise, but it has slowly dawned on me that there is a much more serious, grave issue: because score and pp are almost entirely combo-based, accuracy is 100% worthless without combo. You can be a top player with little to no accuracy whatsoever as long as you can hold a combo. In short, osu! is not a rhythm game, it is an aiming game. It might as well be a first person shooter for all that rhythm matters in the rankings.

Let me show you some examples of just how totally broken the system is at a high level.

Here we have a top 50 player who plays touchscreen. They are rank #49, with a paltry 90% accuracy. This in itself presents an extremely compelling argument to play touchscreen - sacrifice pretty much all rhythm precision to drastically increase the proficiency of your aim. What are cross screen jumps to a touchscreen player? Hai Tai all day baby! It's not like the scoring system will punish you for it, clearly. They have less hours than me, a forgettable 20K mouse scrub, and are in the top 50. Why am I even wasting my time playing the game as it was primarily designed? I strongly suggest you read their bio, as it goes more into depth on the last point.

This isn't meant to be taken as an indictment of touchscreen in any way - I think that their acheivement is incredibly cool - but it is a total indictment of how the pp system rewards you purely for aim and combo, something that is drastically easier with certain playstyles, and that concentrating on accuracy is a meaningless struggle that rewards you peanuts in terms of the amount of effort invested.

Here's an even more extreme example. Rank 240, a solid 250 hours ingame, 83% accuracy. One year was all it took to break top 250. Again, I strongly suggest you read their profile so you can get how broken this shit is, straight from the source. And again, it couldn't be any more clear: if you really want to be "good" at this game, don't buy a tablet, buy a touchscreen computer.

But hey, let's forget touchscreen for a moment. Those guys are basically cheaters anyway, this is a mouse and tablet game right? Well, I present to you: Ming3012, a highly talented player who sandbags their accuracy as much as possible for the lulz. Their average accuracy is a mind-blowing 66.66%. Their top play is 422 pp with a solid 60%. Why even bother trying to be accurate? Why be an accuracy focused player like yuriOS or Enify? Nobody is going to care and you will languish in obscurity, because to sum it up: osu! is a rhythm game where rhythm doesn't matter.

Wrong. osu! is a rhythm and aiming game. Even if you can full combo really hard maps you will get a fraction of the PP compared to if you did it at 99%. Pointing out one or two examples of players with low acc in ranks dominated by players with 98-99% accuracy doesn't prove that acc doesn't matter, it means that you need extraordinary skill in other areas to make up for shortcomings in accuracy.

If you want to complain that you can't get PP without getting a full combo, well, there are plenty of other games where you don't need a full combo to get results, however in osu! you need consistency.

B1rd wrote:

Wrong. osu! is a rhythm and aiming game. Even if you can full combo really hard maps you will get a fraction of the PP compared to if you did it at 99%. Pointing out one or two examples of players with low acc in ranks dominated by players with 98-99% accuracy doesn't prove that acc doesn't matter, it means that you need extraordinary skill in other areas to make up for shortcomings in accuracy.

If you want to complain that you can't get PP without getting a full combo, well, there are plenty of other games where you don't need a full combo to get results, however in osu! you need consistency.

Sure, at your level. The accuracy system isn't great at the low level but completely stops being balanced at the top level. The thing is, with much harder maps, you can easily get 70-80% of the points with absolute bare minimum accuracy. Just check Tillerino with any of Ming's players. And with touchscreen, that premise is basically irrelevant because aiming is so much easier you can feasibly complete maps that have a base reward in the 1000+ range. At that point, who even cares if you only get half?

Also, if you think "well it might be broken but if you don't like it, go play another game" is a valid point, you are unworthy of being part of the discussion, full stop.

Play Taiko and mania.

Accuracy still contributes a fair bit of pp, especially when approaching SS. There's a difference of a whopping 247 pp between ming's top play and the top HDHR score on that map. And even on lower level it matters, just look at me, a player not far from 4k pp that has an amount of 5* FCs you can count on 2 hands and a considerable amount of chokes that are still worth quite some pp due to accuracy.

Yes, it is an aimgame but accuracy is important and being good at hand synchronisation also makes it easier to aim.

Endaris wrote:

Play Taiko and mania.

Accuracy still contributes a fair bit of pp, especially when approaching SS. There's a difference of a whopping 247 pp between ming's top play and the top HDHR score on that map.

You mean, there's a fair difference between "someone who played the map almost perfectly, and someone who sandbagged the map to the point where it is nearly impossible to get worse accuracy with a full combo"? I would certainly hope so! Even then it's only a 30% loss of points to get the absolute bare minimum accuracy. For maps at my level, not getting 95% is usually at least 25-50% points loss, if not greater.

Even then, both of you are still only attacking my minor point and not the major point, which is touchscreen usage and how totally ranking-breaking it is because the game is so unbalanced towards aim and combo.

It doesn't matter what level you are. Higher accuracy always gives way more PP. I could get more PP by farming acc easily.

As we have seen from the vast majority of players, it's the easiest to get PP at 97-99+% accuracy. Thus any arguments that 60% PP plays give too much PP falls flat on its face because if that was the case then everyone would be doing it. But that's not the case, and besides tablet players you're only able to show one players who has acc that low, and he's doing it intentionally. If you want to complain about tablet players, complain about tablet players. Accuracy definitely isn't undervalued.

As we have seen from the vast majority of players, it's the easiest to get PP at 97-99+% accuracy. Thus any arguments that 60% PP plays give too much PP falls flat on its face because if that was the case then everyone would be doing it.

You mean, it's usually easiest to full combo a map you can already play well? Your perception is being totally distorted by the ranking system. How many great accuracy plays are you not seeing because there's a combo break in there somewhere?

But that's not the case, and besides tablet players you're only able to show one players who has acc that low, and he's doing it intentionally. If you want to complain about tablet players, complain about tablet players, because accuracy definitely isn't undervalued.

There are plenty of high ranked, low accuracy touchscreen players. I don't need to exhaustively list every single one of them to make my point. And what is even the point of the last sentence? Do you understand what this thread is about?

..

B1rd wrote:

And as I've said, if you don't like the combo system, this game obviously isn't for you.

Don't talk about anything, everything is already perfect as it is and if there's a problem we should just just burn the whole thing to the ground. Great contribution, thanks for playing. I'm not even discussing the part where the combo system makes tournaments and multiplayer boring and predictable and completely unworthy of being an e-sport despite having a million plus sized user base.

Emersyne wrote:

Also, if you think "well it might be broken but if you don't like it, go play another game" is a valid point, you are unworthy of being part of the discussion, full stop.

It's not broken and nothing needs to be fixed in regards what you are talking about. It's just you complaining because you in your subjective opinion you don't like that accuracy isn't the only skill that is important and you can get to a high rank by excelling in a number of skills other than accuracy. Touchscreen is an example of how you can get to a high rank with good aim, however it comes with its own tradeoffs, as it limits you to a very small mappool, makes it very difficult to stream and to get good acc, which is just as important a skill as aim. It may have a faster skill curve, but it also has a lower skill ceiling, and that's why you only see 1 players using touchscreen in the top 50. The fact that touchscreen players were able to rank so high in such a short time is just as much an example as you own lack of skill as any inherent advantage of the touchscreen.

Thus, you've completely failed to demonstrate that touchscreens are overpowered compared to tablets or that the system needs to change.

B1rd wrote:

It's just you complaining because you in your subjective opinion you don't like that accuracy isn't the only skill that is important and you can get to a high rank by excelling in a number of skills other than accuracy.

It's not just unimportant, it is completely worthless without aim. Accuracy only serves as a multiplier for good aim, it has no value on its own. Is it any mystery why top taiko and osu!mania players are often interchangable but are rarely, if ever, equally competent at osu!standard? It's because their incredible rhythm skills are severely devalued because of the aim/combo component, both things that are not present in those game modes.

Don't believe me? http://osu.dawnglare.com/?p=totalpp

The vast majority of people on this list whom osu!std is not the weak link in their pp gain main osu!std. The skills transfer mostly one way.

B1rd wrote:

Touchscreen is an example of how you can get to a high rank with good aim, however it comes with its own tradeoffs, as it limits you to a very small mappool, makes it very difficult to stream and to get good acc, which is just as important a skill as aim.

I vaguely recall talking about a player who's main talent is streaming with exceptionally poor accuracy and yet somehow the player nets a significant majority of the pp available for the map due to combo. Remind me how much that same map is worth with perfect accuracy and a single miss in the middle?

B1rd wrote:

It may have a faster skill curve, but it also has a lower skill ceiling, and that's why you only see 1 players using touchscreen in the top 50.

How many touchscreen players have invested the amount of hours anywhere near the amount that other players using typical inputs use? Oh yeah, zero. The top touchscreen player has only 500 hours of playtime. Where would that player be if they had the playtime of WubWoofWolf?

The fact that touchscreen players were able to rank so high in such a short time is just as much an example as you own lack of skill as any inherent advantage of the touchscreen. Thus, you've completely failed to demonstrate that touchscreens are overpowered compared to tablets or that the system needs to change.

650 pp 78% acc C rank on a 40 second map with Nofail enabled is definitely not broken.

In any case, you're completely exaggerating your point.
Accuracy is not worthless. That is obvious.

Aim is a key component of osu!standard. The arrangement of the note (ideally) serves as an additional layer of expression and is in many cases strongly tied to rhythm as well. This might not be relevant for pp-meta maps but for more complex maps that are actually not mapped with pp in mind, having a good rhythm sense will greatly help you with reading and therefore also with aiming.

If you want to say that ppv2 is broken then the answer is yes and if you say that the mapping meta is strongly effected by ppv2, none would disagree. This has nothing to do with the general importance of rhythm for this gamemode though. You ain't going to get top 50 on non-meta maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/31438?m=0 without rhythm sense either.

Do you know what the word refute means?

I don't need to refute you, because reality already refutes you, saying that rhythm doesn't matter at all because a minority of touchscreen players are able to make high PP aim players is self-evidently crazy. Call me when a touchscreen player FCs Freedom Dive with HDHR.

Lol. Wrong

> All the highest pp plays are at least OD 9.

> Stream maps require little to no aim and at OD 10 are completely broken.

> Freedom dive HDHR is 800pp and has low aim requirements compared to other maps at that level.

> a 1000pp choke by cookiezi was a stream map. A 1000pp map that was largely aim would be impossible

> HD and higher OD requires no increase in aim and gives free pp.

> Most pp maps have to have at least triples or quintuples to increase note density, these don't really require aim. Note density is rhythm sense heavy and note dense maps give more pp.

> Having good rhythm sense makes your aim better since you know the exact moment in the song you can start moving your cursor.

> Longer maps require better rhythm sense and give more pp with the same peak difficulty.

Emersyne wrote:

: Ming3012, a highly talented player who sandbags their accuracy as much as possible for the lulz

Umm you realize he is has a pretty decent playtime for his rank. His low acc play style is not broken so this point is invalid

Emersyne wrote:

You mean, there's a fair difference between "someone who played the map almost perfectly, and someone who sandbagged the map

Don't underestimate the skill required to set his scores. They are low acc but good luck setting the same scores

Emersyne wrote:

concentrating on accuracy is a meaningless struggle that rewards you peanuts in terms of the amount of effort invested

PP = aim x accuracy

assume aim = 5 and accuracy = 1 and you can only increase aim or accuracy by 1 point.

If you train acc

PP = 5 x 2 = 10

If you train aim

PP = 6 x 1 = 6

Therefore training what you are bad at gives higher returns for the same time investment. Its simple math. This even applies if there is less reward for acc training.

Emersyne wrote:

How many great accuracy plays are you not seeing because there's a combo break in there somewhere?

Combo breaks are effected by both lack of aim or lack of rhythm sense

Emersyne wrote:

Accuracy only serves as a multiplier for good aim, it has no value on its own

Just because it doesn't have value on its own does not mean it does not have value.

Money has zero value on its own and yet it is VERY powerful

Emersyne wrote:

Here we have a top 50 player who plays touchscreen. They are rank #49, with a paltry 90% accuracy. This in itself presents an extremely compelling argument to play touchscreen - sacrifice pretty much all rhythm precision to drastically increase the proficiency of your aim.

Its more about how pp is calculated. Cross screen jumps are less about aim when you are playing touchscreen and are over weighted for that play style. There needs to be a separate pp system for touch screen but this does not mean rhythm is worthless as you say.

yea this guy should be rank #1 in osu standard. ikr

It's definitely a rhythm game. It says so on the info tab.

Seriously though I've gotten friends to play this game and there were people who honestly had better aim than me but they're lack of rhythm and ability to click on the beat made them play like shit. Aim and accuracy are important but I'd say accuracy is much more important. tbh tho i picked this game up to improve my aim in fps games

Emersyne wrote:

I think most of us can agree that the pp system isn't perfect. A lot of people claim that it leads to the gamification of mapping, or unrealistic portrayals of player skill. I'm not entirely sure if I agree with this premise, but it has slowly dawned on me that there is a much more serious, grave issue: because score and pp are almost entirely combo-based, accuracy is 100% worthless without combo. You can be a top player with little to no accuracy whatsoever as long as you can hold a combo. In short, osu! is not a rhythm game, it is an aiming game. It might as well be a first person shooter for all that rhythm matters in the rankings.

Let me show you some examples of just how totally broken the system is at a high level.

Here we have a top 50 player who plays touchscreen. They are rank #49, with a paltry 90% accuracy. This in itself presents an extremely compelling argument to play touchscreen - sacrifice pretty much all rhythm precision to drastically increase the proficiency of your aim. What are cross screen jumps to a touchscreen player? Hai Tai all day baby! It's not like the scoring system will punish you for it, clearly. They have less hours than me, a forgettable 20K mouse scrub, and are in the top 50. Why am I even wasting my time playing the game as it was primarily designed? I strongly suggest you read their bio, as it goes more into depth on the last point.

This isn't meant to be taken as an indictment of touchscreen in any way - I think that their acheivement is incredibly cool - but it is a total indictment of how the pp system rewards you purely for aim and combo, something that is drastically easier with certain playstyles, and that concentrating on accuracy is a meaningless struggle that rewards you peanuts in terms of the amount of effort invested.

Here's an even more extreme example. Rank 240, a solid 250 hours ingame, 83% accuracy. One year was all it took to break top 250. Again, I strongly suggest you read their profile so you can get how broken this shit is, straight from the source. And again, it couldn't be any more clear: if you really want to be "good" at this game, don't buy a tablet, buy a touchscreen computer.

But hey, let's forget touchscreen for a moment. Those guys are basically cheaters anyway, this is a mouse and tablet game right? Well, I present to you: Ming3012, a highly talented player who sandbags their accuracy as much as possible for the lulz. Their average accuracy is a mind-blowing 66.66%. Their top play is 422 pp with a solid 60%. Why even bother trying to be accurate? Why be an accuracy focused player like yuriOS or Enify? Nobody is going to care and you will languish in obscurity, because to sum it up: osu! is a rhythm game where rhythm doesn't matter.

> touchscreen shitstorm
> pointing out players
> calling touchscreen players a "cheaters"
> complete lack of basics in term of game mechanic and formulas
> complete lack of knowledge about players (placing MinG into low acc players while he was shooting 99% acc scores in OWC......)
> complete lack of knowledge about the game itself

Nothing more to add, I guess just calling touchscreen players a "cheaters" would be reason to silence you and burn this topic alive into oblivion.

If you had few working braincells, you would point out scores, rise arguments, avoid insulting players and playstyle, prepare for discussion properly.
This whole shit is just "cry me a river" from another butthurt kid who follow /r/osucancer ts hate like a sheep without brain.

Welcome to thread of shitstorm, insults and lack of any logic.

And no, osu is not a mouse/tablet only game. Original precursor, Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan / Elite Beat Agents were an Nintendo DS touchscreen games. By root logic, touchscreen is very close to original playstyle.

PP from cross-screen jumps is not a playstyle problem, it is both - formula and mapping problem. What is easier to fix here? Nothing.
Just deal with it and move on. Nobody will force mappers to not make full screen jumps, monstrata and c.o. will anyway make garbage maps.
PP formula? Well... not in the future, there are bigger priorities right now.

By this stupid "mouse/tablet" ideology and twisted logic out of ass, mouse only players can call keyboard unfair, m+k tablet, rubberdome keyboard user can call mechanical keyboard unfair etc etc etc. Cut this shit out, nobody fucking care, it is just pointless drama made by someone uneducated and bored with his entire life.

Considering 90% of my top scores are 99% acc I think otherwise

Skidayo wrote:

yea this guy should be rank #1 in osu standard. ikr

Or Barusamikosu!

I.

Hmm, I'm not sure I approve of arguments of the form "X is Y, therefore X should have purpose Y".

"osu! is a rhythm game, therefore osu! rankings should reward rhythm skill more."

It's circular. Compare:

"Mio Winter is a human, humans are social animals, therefore Mio Winter should be more social."

"Mio Winter is a human, humans are greedy, therefore Mio Winter should be more greedy."

Do you feel compelled by these arguments? They have the same structure as the rhythm argument, so if we want to be consistent we either have to accept them all or reject them all.

II.

Imagine a game that has been designed to require skills A, B, C, D and E. This game has been designed to put more strain on some skills than other skills. Let's say that 60 % of the difficulty of the game is due to A, and each of the other skills only adds 10 % to the overall difficulty of the game (that makes a total of 100 %).

Someone comes up to you and says, "this game is a D game, therefore the game should be redesigned to require more D skill."

What would you reply?

III.

I do however approve of arguments of the form "rhythm is a really fun skill to try to get better at, so the osu! ranking system should value rhythm sense more". In general, I think arguments about changing osu! should be about what makes it more fun, or more interesting, or more more. The argument "osu! is a rhythm game, therefore it should focus more on rhythm" doesn't seem to be any of that.

IV.

That being said... accuracy is a really cool skill, so I want the game to focus on it. On the other hand, I have the worst accuracy on the planet (Ming gets bad acc on purpose, I get bad acc because I'm bad), so maybe not.

Came here to say mashing 6* maps is lyfe

TBH while I don't agree that Rythmn is worthless in Standard. I think aim should be altered to penalize more like misses in Taiko.

If you miss at the dead center of the map in STD and SS the rest of the map your score is practically worthless. Yet the same score where you miss at the end of the song is still worth a lot, both scenarios have a player screwing up 1 time and both have them playing perfectly the rest of the map. So why should 1 score be better than the other?

Taiko basically reduces PP for each miss and has a combo score system that stops increasing at 100x. This means that consistency while is definitely important, means that a single miss won't make the play worthless. I think if Standard removed "combo" from being the important factor and instead penalized based on misses it would go a lot more towards balancing rythmn with aim.

haha butthurt op

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

If you miss at the dead center of the map in STD and SS the rest of the map your score is practically worthless. Yet the same score where you miss at the end of the song is still worth a lot, both scenarios have a player screwing up 1 time and both have them playing perfectly the rest of the map. So why should 1 score be better than the other?

Taiko basically reduces PP for each miss and has a combo score system that stops increasing at 100x. This means that consistency while is definitely important, means that a single miss won't make the play worthless. I think if Standard removed "combo" from being the important factor and instead penalized based on misses it would go a lot more towards balancing rythmn with aim.

The one person who actually understands what I'm talking about. Thank God. If not for this post I would have lost my sanity trying to deal with this community's ridiculous pile-on in my absence. The entire reason I've been talking about aim being overweighted is mainly due to combo, because it is far and away the primary reason for a combo break over being off rhythm, and only secondarily due to an inbalance of pp weighting. You'd think I would have made it very clear that this was my primary point considering how I said the word combo about a million times but apparently not. Everyone wants to argue about my secondary point and completely ignores the main point in the process.

For anyone else who didn't get it: I'm trying to talk about why osu!std is so heavily COMBO based. The COMBO system is the fundamental issue.

Maybe I should rename this post to "welcome to osu!, the forum based community where nobody can read".

Endaris wrote:

In any case, you're completely exaggerating your point. Accuracy is not worthless. That is obvious.

No shit, really? I had no idea at all that my post title was hyperbole designed to attract attention and/or a joke themed around the video I posted.

Thank you for clarifying that for me.

Endaris wrote:

Aim is a key component of osu!standard. The arrangement of the note (ideally) serves as an additional layer of expression and is in many cases strongly tied to rhythm as well. This might not be relevant for pp-meta maps but for more complex maps that are actually not mapped with pp in mind, having a good rhythm sense will greatly help you with reading and therefore also with aiming.

I said worthless, not irrelevant. Obviously aim is relevant to mapping.

I'm talking about pp and score, but I think you already knew that judging by your third sentence so I won't ride your ass.

Endaris wrote:

If you want to say that ppv2 is broken then the answer is yes and if you say that the mapping meta is strongly effected by ppv2, none would disagree.

Thank you for your minor agreement.

B1rd wrote:

I don't need to refute you, because reality already refutes you

If you've been reduced to obvious baseless masturbation, do me a favor and do it somewhere else. I'm not interested.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Stream maps require little to no aim

Are you joking? Streaming requires very precise and consistent aim. It just doesn't have jumps.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

a 1000pp choke by cookiezi was a stream map. A 1000pp map that was largely aim would be impossible

A choke, you say? What makes a choke? Oh yeah, a combo break. Hmm.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

HD requires no increase in aim

Personally, aim is the sole reason HD is difficult for me, but maybe it is different for someone with more practice with the mod than me. I disagree but won't claim my disagreement is objective.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Longer maps require better rhythm sense and give more pp with the same peak difficulty.

Longer maps mostly require more consistent aim to avoid a combo break.

All your other points give me the impression you read the title and started writing.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Emersyne wrote:

: Ming3012, a highly talented player who sandbags their accuracy as much as possible for the lulz

Umm you realize he is has a pretty decent playtime for his rank. His low acc play style is not broken so this point is invalid

Emersyne wrote:

You mean, there's a fair difference between "someone who played the map almost perfectly, and someone who sandbagged the map

Don't underestimate the skill required to set his scores. They are low acc but good luck setting the same scores

Do you think I don't know that Ming could easily 99% all their low acc maps if they wanted to? Do you understand what the word "sandbag" means?

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

assume aim = 5 and accuracy = 1 and you can only increase aim or accuracy by 1 point.

If you train acc

PP = 5 x 2 = 10

If you train aim

PP = 6 x 1 = 6

Very interesting analogy albeit one I find extremely inaccurate due to how you set it up. Tell you what, though - I've used a similar analogy to communicate my point, with one small change:

Take away a point from your worse skill for a mistake instead of giving a point for training.

If you stumble on acc:

PP = 4 x 1 = 4

If you stumble on aim:

PP = 5 x 0 = 0

Hopefully this makes my objection much more clear.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Emersyne wrote:

How many great accuracy plays are you not seeing because there's a combo break in there somewhere?

Combo breaks are effected by both lack of aim or lack of rhythm sense

They are far and away more affected by aim. I don't see how you could possibly dispute this. A 0 from lack of timing is far, far less common than a 0 from a miss.

Emersyne wrote:

Here we have a top 50 player who plays touchscreen. They are rank #49, with a paltry 90% accuracy. This in itself presents an extremely compelling argument to play touchscreen - sacrifice pretty much all rhythm precision to drastically increase the proficiency of your aim.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Its more about how pp is calculated. Cross screen jumps are less about aim when you are playing touchscreen and are over weighted for that play style. There needs to be a separate pp system for touch screen but this does not mean rhythm is worthless as you say.

You're entirely correct that jumps are overweighted, though that isn't my main issue. However, I absolutely believe that osu! should be input device agnostic and that the scoring and ranking system should reflect that. There is no reason to limit the concept of the game or put legitimate players in a scoring ghetto.

And now, the creme de la creme:


I know you wrote this to try to make me angry, but honestly, this is my favorite post of yours, because it is just an absolutely perfect indictment of your terrible character as a human being. This post has absolved me of ever taking you seriously again, because in your attempt to tear me down, you showed that you not only completely failed to understand what I wrote in any way, but are yourself guilty of all your accusations.

Here's a play by play breakdown:

[Taiga] wrote:

> touchscreen shitstorm
> pointing out players
> calling touchscreen players a "cheaters"

Nothing more to add, I guess just calling touchscreen players a "cheaters" would be reason to silence you and burn this topic alive into oblivion.

I don't know how you think I am "calling out" touchscreen players or even trying to denigrate them at all. Did you somehow miss this part?

Emersyne wrote:

This isn't meant to be taken as an indictment of touchscreen in any way - I think that their acheivement is incredibly cool

How did you possibly mistake this:

Emersyne wrote:

But hey, let's forget touchscreen for a moment. Those guys are basically cheaters anyway, this is a mouse and tablet game right?

for anything other than blatant sarcasm? It's completely inconsistent with every other part of my post. Oh yeah, it's because you're chock full of piss and vinegar and totally short on anything resembling adult level reading comprehension.

In fact, I will go as far as to post a private message I sent to freedomdiver the day before I wrote the OP just to show how completely wrong you are about my attitude towards touchscreen players:



That's right, I have "mad respect" for someone you somehow think I am actually calling a cheater.

Next, you accuse me of being uneducated about the game...

[Taiga] wrote:

> complete lack of basics in term of game mechanic and formulas
> complete lack of knowledge about the game itself

...but I'm better at the game than you are! And even then, you've dismissed me earlier as a "farmer", but wouldn't that just illustrate the fact that I have to understand how the system works in order to exploit it? Which one is it? Does it flip flop depending on which side of the bed you wake up on?

[Taiga] wrote:

> complete lack of knowledge about players (placing MinG into low acc players while he was shooting 99% acc scores in OWC......)

> again, a complete lack of any reading comprehension

Emersyne wrote:

Ming3012, a highly talented player who sandbags their accuracy as much as possible for the lulz

Do you know what the word "sandbag" means? I'll save you and M3ATLOVER the legwork and post the definition right here:

Urban Dictionary wrote:

sandbag: When a player in any game chooses (on purpose) to not play their best.

Do you seriously think that I don't understand that Ming is just playing Johnny-style to make a statement?

[Taiga] wrote:

By this stupid "mouse/tablet" ideology and twisted logic out of ass, mouse only players can call keyboard unfair, m+k tablet, rubberdome keyboard user can call mechanical keyboard unfair etc etc etc.

Again, you didn't actually bother reading my post, or have any understanding of the touchscreen metagame. The people who are the best touchscreen players in the world are the main people who call it unfair. Read their profile pages like I suggested.

And finally...

[Taiga] wrote:

Welcome to thread of shitstorm, insults and lack of any logic.

I see. And who is the sole person in this thread that makes this a fundamental portion of anything they post, ever?

[Taiga] wrote:

If you had few working braincells
This whole shit is just "cry me a river" from another butthurt kid who follow /r/osucancer ts hate like a sheep without brain
Cut this shit out, nobody fucking care, it is just pointless drama made by someone uneducated and bored with his entire life

That moment when you did something and then went on to complain about people doing that, and nobody else did. Great job.

In short, re-evaluate your life and the decision-making that led you to making this potato quality post.

I don't know how you think I am "calling out" touchscreen players or even trying to denigrate them at all. Did you somehow miss this part?

Read again, trying to hide your butthurt towards touchscreen players with sweet words and licking ass doesn't really work.

It's completely inconsistent with every other part of my post. Oh yeah, it's because you're chock full of piss and vinegar and totally short on anything resembling adult level reading comprehension.

When you expect an adult level of discussion, make it consistent with proper arguments. You made non.

...but I'm better at the game than you are! And even then, you've dismissed me earlier as a "farmer", but wouldn't that just illustrate the fact that I have to understand how the system works in order to exploit it? Which one is it? Does it flip flop depending on which side of the bed you wake up on?

At current state, rank doesn't make anyone better or worse, deal with this. You can thank to people like monstrata and c.o. Back to 2014, ranking was more relevant, right now it's just "bragging aspect for kids". Just the fact you try to bring argument like "I'm better than you" makes you look stupid and not worth any further discussion.

And no, playing short overweighted maps is not an "exploiting system". Mappers are exploiting pp formula, you just use their maps to gain way too big amount of pp in comparison to spent effort.

for anything other than blatant sarcasm?

Sarcasm in written word... you really need to read some books, you will understand how to actually build sarcastic written sentences.

That moment when you did something and then went on to complain about people doing that, and nobody else did. Great job.

In short, re-evaluate your life and the decision-making that led you to making this potato quality post.

cba to take you out of your mistake, aint have time for someone who is trying to defend his garbage post.

As I said, stay low and cry.
EoT for me.

winber1 wrote:

haha butthurt op

this guys knows

so according to my personal experience if I had much higher acc on my top plays i would be atleast 4 digit now

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

If you miss at the dead center of the map in STD and SS the rest of the map your score is practically worthless. Yet the same score where you miss at the end of the song is still worth a lot, both scenarios have a player screwing up 1 time and both have them playing perfectly the rest of the map. So why should 1 score be better than the other?

The reason is because missing at the end or start of the map shows you can complete a combo of the maps length without choking. Choking in the middle shows you are only able to complete a combo of half the maps length. The first player is obviously a better player and deserves more pp.

Emersyne wrote:

Very interesting analogy albeit one I find extremely inaccurate due to how you set it up

Why is it inaccurate

Emersyne wrote:

Maybe I should rename this post to "welcome to osu!, the forum based community where nobody can read".

Yup its definitely everybody else's fault that they cant understand you, right?

Emersyne wrote:

No shit, really? I had no idea at all that my post title was hyperbole designed to attract attention and/or a joke themed around the video I posted.

Well I don't see how the "designed" hyperbole is working in your favor. To me it seems like you are trying to project your own insecurities and taking out your frustrations on others. If you actually wanted a meaningful discussion you wouldn't exaggerate and try to incite an emotional response from others. You call it a joke to backwards rationalize your actions.

Emersyne wrote:

Are you joking? Streaming requires very precise and consistent aim. It just doesn't have jumps.

It requires rhythm sense and reading much more than aim. Cursor movement is far slower, to the degree it is almost nothing compared to jumps of the same difficulty. Getting the cursor where it needs for streams to be is very independent of the players physical ability to move their cursor. This is why many jump heavy players have problems with streams. I don't mean to be rude but you cant really talk about what streams require because you have almost entirely short jumpy DT scores in your top plays.

Emersyne wrote:

Personally, aim is the sole reason HD is difficult for me,

No its reading that makes HD difficult. The aim required is the same. I think you are confused on what aim is, it is only about the ability to manipulate the cursor, nothing else. Reading is knowing where everything is which is the only factor that hidden changes.

Emersyne wrote:

All your other points give me the impression you read the title and started writing.

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, explain or dismiss this.

Emersyne wrote:

Do you think I don't know that Ming could easily 99% all their low acc maps if they wanted to? Do you understand what the word "sandbag" means?

The point was his play style gives no advantage and his scores are hard to get. Sandbagging means to make no effort, yet the scores in itself don't show he made no effort. I didn't misunderstand you, you made up your own misunderstanding all by yourself and it looks like you have a habit of doing this.

Emersyne wrote:

Take away a point from your worse skill for a mistake instead of giving a point for training.

If you stumble on acc:

PP = 4 x 1 = 4

If you stumble on aim:

PP = 5 x 0 = 0

Hopefully this makes my objection much more clear.

No you are not clear, no one has zero aim and gets zero pp. Also no one chokes a map and always gets zero pp. This is a big picture analogy which takes into account multiple tries at a map to determine a players pp/skill level. Chokes have no effect here. Try again

Emersyne wrote:

They are far and away more affected by aim. I don't see how you could possibly dispute this. A 0 from lack of timing is far, far less common than a 0 from a miss.

Why are you assuming that I would disagree that they are more affected by aim? I was just pointing out both are relevant. It is especially the case for streams, misreading the rhythm makes you over or under stream which is a vast majority of stream chokes since cursor placement is dependent on where you perceive yourself in the rhythm and how you read the rhythm.

However to say they are WAY more affected is false. You look at chokes as evidence but don't think of the long term big picture which is evident in your reply to the training point I made. You remind me of the people who say elo hell exists, they make the exact same mistake and give an example where their teammates brought them down, they played perfectly and jump to the conclusion that their rank is being held down and the system is broken. They are clueless to the fact that over many games the only constant is them and so that rank is NOT a meaningless reflection of skill. The same goes for chokes, If you play enough games the reason why you choke is a reflection of your lack in skill.

Emersyne wrote:

For anyone else who didn't get it: I'm trying to talk about why osu!std is so heavily COMBO based. The COMBO system is the fundamental issue.

It would probably be a good idea to explain why its a fundamental issue for you. I don't think you have explained this at all.

Admit it you choked a farm map in the middle of it and you're now salty lmao

admit ur mad at a game about clicking circles lmao

winber1 wrote:

admit ur mad at a game about clicking circles lmao

I like your avatar

this man is a score v2 man

I kinda like combo. Keeps the suspense real throughout the maps. osu!tournaments are sort of like tightrope walking tournaments, and that's what makes watching tournaments so fun. So I'm in favour of keeping combo as a main factor in score and PP.

Oh, someone complaining about touchscreen players and how accuracy is counted in the pp system.

Just so you know, touchscreen is actually really hard, having a good acc is impossible without tryharding.
If you have an Android phone / tablet, try it out. https://itdelatrisu.github.io/opsu/

Though, just look at the pp for a 99% FC, you'll see it's a lot more compared to 60% FCs.

FruityEnLoops wrote:

Oh, someone complaining about touchscreen players and how accuracy is counted in the pp system.

Just so you know, touchscreen is actually really hard, having a good acc is impossible without tryharding.
If you have an Android phone / tablet, try it out. https://itdelatrisu.github.io/opsu/

Though, just look at the pp for a 99% FC, you'll see it's a lot more compared to 60% FCs.

You have to read his words, not just his tone. He clearly said "This isn't meant to be taken as an indictment of touchscreen in any way - I think that their acheivement is incredibly cool" in the first post. He isn't complaining about TS players, he's complaining about the PP system, and talks about TS as a way of illustrating what he thinks is wrong with the PP system.

Mio Winter wrote:

You have to read his words, not just his tone. He clearly said "This isn't meant to be taken as an indictment of touchscreen in any way - I think that their acheivement is incredibly cool" in the first post. He isn't complaining about TS players, he's complaining about the PP system, and talks about TS as a way of illustrating what he thinks is wrong with the PP system.

There is one problem - as far as he try to cover his shit with "This isn't meant to be taken as an indictment of touchscreen in any way - I think that their acheivement is incredibly cool", this will never work because whole content of his speech have negative passive-aggressive undertone.

What he done have a name: hypocrisy.

1. He point out players in term of example of "how bad touchscreen plays are and how much pp they give" <--- clear offensive stance towards certain player and his playstyle
2. He called touchscreen players a cheaters - No, there is no sarcasm in how he expressed this taking into consideration how he formed his speech.

Smart person could handle this topic by:
- avoiding players at all in initial discussion
- showing examples of scores for BOTH sides - low acc and high acc one (because pointing out only one argument leave you extremely insecure)
- avoiding ANY problematic sentences which can easily be turned against you
etc.
just school basics of how to start a proper discussion.

Mio Winter wrote:

I kinda like combo. Keeps the suspense real throughout the maps. osu!tournaments are sort of like tightrope walking tournaments, and that's what makes watching tournaments so fun. So I'm in favour of keeping combo as a main factor in score and PP.

Try watching a mania tournament.



As for everyone else, continuing this thread is a complete waste of my time. Interacting with this community really couldn't be any less pleasant. I don't have any interest in having a yelling match with people who either don't understand what I'm saying, don't care and are just hell-bent on giving me a hard time, or are so delusional as to create absolutely insane troll logic like the post above this one.

Missing mid-map is a lot less impressive than missing at the end since holding combo for longer is harder.
I guess osu! is a perfection game where misses are highly punished in terms of PP earnings.

Combo will always be more important than acc in this game, but the amount of PP you get is greatly reduced when having bad acc.
Sure you might get decent PP from <90%, but having 99%+ is so much more rewarding. Ming would've been a lot higher on the leader-board if he wanted to.

A typical farm map for my rank is monstrata's "santa san"
With HR, this map is worth 481PP with SS rank. 98% however, the worth drops down to 381PP. That's a 100PP difference.

osu! standard is definitely a combo based game. The importance of combo triumphs acc however i still believe it's a game that requires rhythm sense since a play without acc quickly becomes worthless. Combo>acc, but combo alone doesn't give PP.