Kondou-Shinichi wrote:

why so deep when you can just use every method from time to time from map to map

Hm, I agree that using different playstyles for different beatmaps is often a good idea. But if you spread your practice time on several playstyles, your main playstyle won't be as good compared to if you only practiced your main playstyle. If I practice alternating even on low-bpm maps where single-tapping could theoretically give me higher acc, it will also make me better at alternating when I play high-bpm maps where single-tapping doesn't work.

But regardless, is there any beatmap where experts at semi-alternating should consistently outperform experts at full-alternating? If not, then there's no reason to practice both playstyles.

For me, usually i would use semi-alt + singletapping
a perfect example would be my slowmotion ezdt play

in reality, both full and semi alt pretty much doesn’t do a different

semi-alternators are most likely better on high bpm deathstreams on average

Great post! Lately i've been training full-alternating due to I have learned playing and doing triples etc with my middle and index finger. I feel like when I alternate my stream speed is worse than when singletapping because I singletap with wrist so I think it saves stamina for streams. Also Bubbleman full-alternates and he's currently #19

mikkoxd wrote:

Great post! Lately i've been training full-alternating due to I have learned playing and doing triples etc with my middle and index finger. I feel like when I alternate my stream speed is worse than when singletapping because I singletap with wrist so I think it saves stamina for streams. Also Bubbleman full-alternates and he's currently #19

The amazing BUBBLEMAN does?! : O Where did you hear this?

And yeah, that's one reason for single-tapping that deemoplayer47 mentioned earlier. Seems important.

Mio Winter wrote:

The amazing BUBBLEMAN does?! : O Where did you hear this?

And yeah, that's one reason for single-tapping that deemoplayer47 mentioned earlier. Seems important.

Yes he does! Well you can tell he's full-alternating from watching his plays and looking at the key counter.

Yep fast singletap players mostly use wrist / arm to tap, not their fingers. If we look Angelsim for example, he semi-alternates fast maps and I think most players just semi-alternate because they have trained streams / bursts with their main finger and starting them with that finger while alternating feels the most natural.

mikkoxd wrote:

Mio Winter wrote:

The amazing BUBBLEMAN does?! : O Where did you hear this?

And yeah, that's one reason for single-tapping that deemoplayer47 mentioned earlier. Seems important.

Yes he does! Well you can tell he's full-alternating from watching his plays and looking at the key counter.

Seeing that [689] [690] on the key counter is just so satisfying. <3

Endaris wrote:

And properly resetting your finger is something that makes you good, fast and accurate in the long run.

Why is finger resetting good?

If its good because it trains control then I would say that not finger resetting also trains control

I never reset my fingers and so my fingers are always ready to press the keys.

Endaris wrote:

I disagree with this being a straight up advantage.
If you're full-alternating from the first minute of abandoning mouse-only (like me), you're well setup to run straight down into bad habits because you can get away with a much less efficient movement on patterns like that.
If a semi-alternator or singletapper plays XYX XYX XYX he is effectively training his streams and his stamina because the finger the pattern is started with goes at the same speed as an actual stream XYXYXYXYXYX.
If a full-alternating player is doing that, he is not training his streams at all, he is training triples.

This difference results in a significantly better learning curve for single-tappers and semi-alternators regarding stream speed and stamina.

But you just said that XYX makes the pattern harder. How does making patterns harder have anything to do with giving a more advantageous learning curve? You also said it changes the pattern to be more stream like rather than triples but again I don't understand the link here.

If you want harder patterns you are not at a loss for choice as a full alternator, the same goes for high bpm streams. I don't see how the learning curve is affected at all

N0thingSpecial wrote:

a relatable example for me is the piano, you learn scale, 99% of the time your tutor will tell you the order of fingers to tap the corresponding notes, rinse and repeat and you'll develop muscle memory for that. If you are given 3 consecutive sets of scales you wouldn't play the 3 different sets in 3 different tapping order, cause in practical environment you would have to also handle need to handle dynamic, articulation and speed, your coordination can only go so far you wouldn't bother to change tapping order.

The reason you don't learn alternative tapping orders for piano is because there is no advantage to do so. XYX YXY does make the pattern physically easier which is why its worth learning.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

why not alternate between 4 fingers? in piano if you need to play a single note rapidly you actually alternate between 3 fingers, but why 3?

Again piano is different. X and Y are both the same note in osu, you don't have that situation with piano. In osu you could use two fingers for X and two for Y but keyboard keys are smaller than piano keys and so it takes more physical effort to switch fingers on the same key rather than using the same finger.

Endaris wrote:

semi-alternators are most likely better on high bpm deathstreams on average

If there were actual statistics showing this I would believe you

mikkoxd wrote:

Also Bubbleman full-alternates and he's currently #19

Hes also really consistent and cute like doomsbae


Conclusion

I think alternating vs non alternating doesn't matter.

Just like mouse vs tablet.

Its in the acceptable range that our mind and body can adapt to play to suit the peripheral/play style.

Yet each adaption is relatively equivalent.

I am a mouse player AND a full alternator which makes me one of the few chosen 100% L33T players. Bow before my greatness

*bows before your greatness*

Still, mouse vs tablet doesn't matter?! *outraged* Of course it does! But mablet is better than both anyway.

I can't get the hang of anything other than full-alternating. Tend to leave my finger pressed on the key until the next note is played (regardless of whether the last was a slider or circle).

I really don't understand how people do single tap or semi alternating lol. I tried it and can't do it.

Swegmec wrote:

Tend to leave my finger pressed on the key until the next note is played

!!! : O This is what I set out to do the first time I learned full-alt. I want to leave my finger on the key until I have to press the next key, and one of the reasons I want to full-alt is because semi-alternators can't do this. I think it has benefits because it could reduce the complexity of the instructions you send to your fingers, but I haven't explained that in this post because it's really speculative and somewhat difficult to explain (and probably wrong).

Mio Winter wrote:

Still, mouse vs tablet doesn't matter?! *outraged* Of course it does!

The reason why mouse players say they are equal is because there's no point trying to convert tablet players. They are already corrupted

Nah it probably doesn't matter.

Anyone who says that it seriously matters are grasping at straws for improvement or are trying to look talented by saying they are held back by a shitty peripheral.

Mio Winter wrote:

This is what I set out to do the first time I learned full-alt. I want to leave my finger on the key until I have to press the next key, and one of the reasons I want to full-alt is because semi-alternators can't do this. I think it has benefits because it could reduce the complexity of the instructions you send to your fingers, but I haven't explained that in this post because it's really speculative and somewhat difficult to explain (and probably wrong)

Full alt gives you more time to read since low note dense and high note dense sections have the same movement allowing you more time to react. If you have to be in an alternating form and you are currently single tapping you have to minus the time it takes to switch forms to calculate the allowable time to react.

It also reduces mental strain because you don't have to decide on whether to single tap or alternate. You also have to master less forms of motion allowing you to improve quicker.

Full alt is also very relaxing to do once its muscle memory. It also makes low bpm streams a piece of cake (cause high bpm single notes are similar)


I forgot to add your original post is very well formatted and very well written! This is rare on most forums.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

a relatable example for me is the piano

I think a better example is guitar. The consensus in the community is that you should always alternate then adjust from there. Some pieces are easier starting with a up stroke or repeating a down or up stroke in certain parts.

Since I used to play guitar hero alternating seemed like a no brainier but now I'm not so sure.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

I forgot to add your original post is very well formatted and very well written!

*blushes profusely*

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Full alt gives you more time to read since low note dense and high note dense sections have the same movement allowing you more time to react. If you have to be in an alternating form and you are currently single tapping you have to minus the time it takes to switch forms to calculate the allowable time to react.

This is a good point!

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Full alt is also very relaxing to do once its muscle memory. It also makes low bpm streams a piece of cake (cause high bpm single notes are similar)

This is also a good point! Although the benefit also applies to semi-alt, not just full-alt. It's a benefit alternators have over singletappers.

It also depends on what BPM streams you're talking about. I currently struggle especially much with slow quarterbeat streams at about 130 bpm (? I'm not sure what my lower limit is) to 170 bpm (ish), and I'm much more consistent on streams from 171 bpm to 200 bpm (ish). I also really struggle with halfbeat jumps at above 260 bpm.

So in order to practice quarterbeat streaming at 130 bpm to 170 bpm, I would have to be able to alternate halfbeat jumps at 260 bpm to 340 bpm... Which is really amazingly fast from my perspective. It seems unlikely that I'm going to get better at 170 bpm streams by alternating jumps. But it definitely seems like a good argument for learning streams below 150 bpm.

Here's what 316 bpm halfbeat jumps look like:

Mio Winter wrote:

deemoplayer47 wrote:

Stamina should be considered as well. Tapping using the fingers isn't the only way to tap; one can also tap using the wrist or even the forearm.
Wrist tapping or forearm tapping not only gives extra stamina that semi-alternating playstyles need, it's also even more difficult to integrate said tapping techniques into the full-alternating playstyle, specially wrist tapping which seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating (most top players wrist-tap on anything slower than 1/4 or 1/6 beats). Because they compensate for lack of stamina (in semi-alternating), it's almost not worth full-alternating; it's easy to see why the majority of top players semi-alternate.

But what do you mean "wrist tapping seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating"? Both full-alternating and semi-alternating seems to require finger muscles (maybe wrist/forearm muscles as well, depending on how you do it) equally much, except maybe semi-alternating which puts extra stress on one finger. Not sure what you mean.

I'll give an example: instead of (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

X-YXYXY-X-Y-XYXYX-Y

You can use your wrist to save stamina for non-stream parts:

X-XYXYX-X-X-XYXYX-X

More frequent use of any muscle for tapping increases stamina of that muscle, and of course, accuracy specifically when using said muscle. Wrist tappers hit notes more accurately using their wrist. As stamina corresponds to accuracy, it is indeed very important. Theoretically, using the forearm along with the wrist and fingers should yield optimal stamina and accuracy.

But thinking more about it, if semi-alternators can't adapt a full-alternating style, then yes think I get your point.
Given this special case: (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo

Notice how the note sequence is simply a 15-note deathstream broken into threes.
Semi-alternators would tap XYX-XYX-XYX-XYX-XYX (tap X ten times and Y five times), while full-alternators would tap XYX-YXY-XYX-YXY-XYX (tap X eight times and Y seven times); full-alternators would distribute energy usage more evenly between fingers than semi-alternators. I'd rather full-alternate in this case.

There's another special case: (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

oooo-o-o-oooo-o-o

Whether a full-alternator starts with X or Y, he/she will soon find himself/herself wrist-tapping with the finger on Y, which will certainly affect accuracy (not only is it a different finger, the middle finger is also longer than the index and so needs a slightly different position for wrist-tapping). Still, it's better than not using your wrist.

MFull alt is physically less demanding but it is compensated for being mentally more demanding, these two aspect is why we vary in opinion, lets completely ignore the difference between full alt and semi alt, let's say it's XXX XXX vs XYX YXY, IF I have the physical ability to single tap 300bpm death stream XXX XXX would just be easier, and it's easier to develop muscle memory for since you're just moving one set of muscles, hence it will not hinder my aim. IF I'm scientifically proven to be a human metronome with robotic precision control of my tapping, XYX YXY would be easier, and it's easier for me to focus on developing muscle memory for aiming. Both extreme side of the spectrum would eventually produce the same results.

Now let's go back to the practicality of the game, imo this game leans toward the meta of simplifying rhythm choices, and thats my reason for suggesting that it is really no necessary to be so focused on the cognitive side of the game, same reasoning for you suggesting why there's no need to develop muscle memory to play scales in another order. Hence me coming to the conclusion that semi alt is better.

deemoplayer47 wrote:

I'll give an example: instead of (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

X-YXYXY-X-Y-XYXYX-Y

You can use your wrist to save stamina for non-stream parts:

X-XYXYX-X-X-XYXYX-X

Yeah, I got that part from your first post (which is a good point!). You can use your wrist on non-stream parts to save stamina for streamy parts.

What I didn't understand was how "wrist tapping seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating".

Ah, I understand. You assumed that "the need for full-alternating" was because it gives you more stamina because you spread the strain evenly among the two fingers. And you don't need to do that if you just wrist/forearm-tap, because that gives you even more stamina than full-alternating. Point granted.

But the main need for alternating is because it allows you to play high-bpm jumps that you can't singletap. For example, try to singletap this. The reason no one can singletap 316 bpm quarterbeat jumps (the jumps shown in video) is not because they lack stamina, it's because the finger or wrist or forearm can't move that fast (doesn't have the strength, can't break lightspeed, etc.).

deemoplayer47 wrote:

As stamina corresponds to accuracy, it is indeed very important.

Hmm, just to clarify the relationship between acc and stamina a bit. For 95 % of the maps I play (I rarely play stream-heavy maps, but I do play maps with long streams), stamina isn't an issue at all. So increasing my stamina will not affect my accuracy much. Except for when I play the stream-heavy maps. I have OK stamina but my accuracy is shamefully bad. Another person could be really good at accuracy (on non-streamy maps), yet have much lower stamina than me. They would just need sufficient stamina for the non-streamy maps. But yeah, if you don't have sufficient stamina for what you play yet, training stamina may be the most efficient way to get higher acc.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Endaris wrote:

And properly resetting your finger is something that makes you good, fast and accurate in the long run.

Why is finger resetting good?

If its good because it trains control then I would say that not finger resetting also trains control

I never reset my fingers and so my fingers are always ready to press the keys.

With "reset" I mean resetting the key and being ready to hit the key again.
This is directly related to training your speed.

Mio Winter wrote:

Swegmec wrote:

Tend to leave my finger pressed on the key until the next note is played

!!! : O This is what I set out to do the first time I learned full-alt. I want to leave my finger on the key until I have to press the next key, and one of the reasons I want to full-alt is because semi-alternators can't do this. I think it has benefits because it could reduce the complexity of the instructions you send to your fingers, but I haven't explained that in this post because it's really speculative and somewhat difficult to explain (and probably wrong).

This on the other hand does not only not train your speed, it is potentially even harmful because on most maps you aren't pushed for full stamina and as such you may practice a lazy and inefficient movement for the majority of your playtime.
This is the skill you lack when you play maps that actually require that efficiency and speed and this is why I think that full-alternators tend to be weaker when it comes to streams and specifically deathstreams.

I also agree with deemoplayer on stamina being an absolute requirement for accuracy. Just having enough stamina will never be enough to SS a map that poses at least some kind of challenge.
It is only possible to exert full control for the best accuracy when playing maps below your stamina level.

Endaris wrote:

This on the other hand does not only not train your speed, it is potentially even harmful because on most maps you aren't pushed for full stamina and as such you may practice a lazy and inefficient movement for the majority of your playtime.
This is the skill you lack when you play maps that actually require that efficiency and speed and this is why I think that full-alternators tend to be weaker when it comes to streams and specifically deathstreams.

I definitely agree that singletappers get to practice stamina more, because many fast-bpm maps are a strain on the stamina of your tapping hand. Alternators will just breeze through them with no sweat. So I can believe that singletappers have better stamina on average. It's an important argument in support of singletapping.

I don't know how important that practice is, though. I think there's a level at which almost all non-streamy beatmaps become a negligible strain on your stamina, such that no matter whether you singletap or alternate, you won't get stamina practice out of it. So at that level, the only way you can practice stamina is by playing stream-heavy maps, and singletappers and alternators get the same amount of stamina practice out of it. I could be wrong, since I have almost no experience singletapping.

Mio Winter wrote:

It also depends on what BPM streams you're talking about. I currently struggle especially much with slow quarterbeat streams at about 130 bpm (? I'm not sure what my lower limit is) to 170 bpm (ish), and I'm much more consistent on streams from 171 bpm to 200 bpm (ish). I also really struggle with halfbeat jumps at above 260 bpm.

Its probably because most maps that have 260bpm half beat jumps or more are usually technical maps like these
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1041079&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/62905

deemoplayer47 wrote:

Wrist tapping or forearm tapping not only gives extra stamina that semi-alternating playstyles need, it's also even more difficult to integrate said tapping techniques into the full-alternating playstyle, specially wrist tapping which seems to eliminate the need for full-alternating (most top players wrist-tap on anything slower than 1/4 or 1/6 beats). Because they compensate for lack of stamina (in semi-alternating), it's almost not worth full-alternating; it's easy to see why the majority of top players semi-alternate.

Wrist and forearm tapping is not hard to integrate into full alternating. Its less pronounced for full alternating since the opposite finger is moving down as the other is moving up reducing the amount of wrist or forearm movement needed and sharing the load more evenly over the whole arm. This gives full alternators a bit more stamina as the load is less concentrated.

The reason why most people semi alternate is because when you first start playing mental demand takes precedence over physical demand. This leads to most starting with the mentally easier technique and sticking to it due to habit. This doesn't mean that mental demand for semi alternating is always lower, it could be higher or lower depending on the bpm.

Endaris wrote:

The point is that the full-alternator won't learn to properly reset his fingers because he always has enough time to laze.
The main difference between XYX XYX XYX and XYX YXY XYX is that on the former you absolutely need to properly reset your X finger for the next note. And properly resetting your finger is something that makes you good, fast and accurate in the long run.

Resetting your fingers is not necessarily a good habit. I see many single tappers having trouble with technical maps for this reason because they slider break very often due to always wanting to reset. Finger control is not adversely affected by full alternating or by single tapping because both have their downsides for different situations.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

IF I have the physical ability to single tap 300bpm death stream XXX XXX would just be easier

I disagree, drummers when using one hand then two hands to do the same bpm changes the sound of the beat. The single hand beats are more flat while the alternating hits have a deeper sound since the hand has the time to linger rather than pull up immediately. This effect applies to osu as well, fast single tapping is hard to learn since the physical sensations in your hand is less pronounced.

An example of this is trying to tap 180 bpm with 2 or 3 fingers. I find 3 fingers mentally easier even though I have practiced both about the same amount.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

MFull alt is physically less demanding but it is compensated for being mentally more demanding

Don't higher physical demands also increase mental demand? XYX XYX is basically streaming but at a higher bpm missing a note. Streaming at a higher bpm has a higher mental cost. You have to perceive more notes than needed.

eemoplayer47 wrote:

There's another special case: (on 170bpm 1/4 beat)

oooo-o-o-oooo-o-o

Whether a full-alternator starts with X or Y, he/she will soon find himself/herself wrist-tapping with the finger on Y, which will certainly affect accuracy (not only is it a different finger, the middle finger is also longer than the index and so needs a slightly different position for wrist-tapping). Still, it's better than not using your wrist.

Yes this pattern requires a slightly different wrist tapping position. This again distributes the physical demand on the hand to increase stamina however this position is similar to the other wrist tapping position so the muscle memory required is similar.

i cant write wall of text
ill just say semi-alt is better for finger control

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

stuff

I think reading your wall of text I need to add a big fat "it depends" statement, cause we're not even fundamentally talking about the same thing lol, I'm talking about the the implication of the meta on the mental and physical aspect, and you're only focusing physical and mental aspect of it

As someone that semi-alternates I think it really depends.

Mainly cuz for most songs I have a specific tapping pattern for certain rhythms. For example:

circle - circle - slider = x - x - z in terms of tapping
circle - circle - circle - circle - circle - slider = x x z x z is the most common, but can vary to x x z x x which is more for lower bpm maps
slider - circlecircle(1/4) = x (hold) - xz which is weird because I treat all sliderend triples like doubles and never do x (hold) zx since that throws me off.
slider - slider = x - x mostly I will singletap sliders.

For long jump patterns it ends up as a combination but I will rarely if ever press x 3 times in a row, so you can get patterns like x x z x z x x z x z x x or x x z x x z x x z depending on how the jumps are structured.

These tapping patterns that I sort of just developed help in specific circumstances and are pretty flexible especially with higher bpms and jump patterns to keep stamina and control.

That's all I can provide. If I had to say which is better, I'd say semi-alternating because it trains both equal distribution of workload and stamina of your preferred tapping finger.

I don't usually post here aaaaaaa

Hope this helped somehow

Mir wrote:

circle - circle - circle - circle - circle - slider = x x z x z is the most common, but can vary to x x z x x which is more for lower bpm maps

Why do you singletap the first two circles? Your tapping sequences look so weird to me. : P

It's probably because it's much easier to tap twice than tap three times, hence why jackhammers in mania exist but "triple jacks" (three 1/4 in the same lane) are generally considered ?_? by most mania players.