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posted
This beatmap was submitted using in-game submission on Saturday, November 18, 2017 at 10:01:29 PM

Artist: ICE
Title: Parodia Sonatina -Grande-
Source: Deemo
Tags: Deemo ICE Extra L Expert Marathon
BPM: 120
Filesize: 5996kb
Play Time: 02:30
Difficulties Available:
  1. (reference) (3.16 stars, 23 notes)
  2. L (6.88 stars, 1095 notes)


Download: ICE - Parodia Sonatina -Grande-
Information: Scores/Beatmap Listing
---------------
All suggestions and criticism are welcome. ^_^

Beatmap Design
Parodia Sonatina is a song about conflict and pain.

The beatmap expresses conflict through progressive distortion in the map structure, conditioning with several patterns and breaking them down at the right time to make the map more difficult to read. The beatmap expresses pain through the unforgiving HP drain rate and the sustained technical/mechanical difficulty. In comparison, the cytus versions of L1 and L2 are only difficult in terms of reading/pattern complexity.


I attempt my best to draw the song's picture and convey its emotion. I'm not yet skilled enough to be able to see the map accurately in the very eyes of a player and a mapper (I can't even pass 5* maps yet) soooo I suppose I'll git gud first. And then I can finally understand the psychology behind the gameplay and apply it to this map so I can finish it.

My work is still far from perfect.

progress: 25%
November 15, 2017:
+ Added rhythm placeholders for first half of var. II 1st verse.
November 11, 2017:
- Deleted all objects in the intro and var. I due to subpar quality. Will work on them after var. II is complete.
+ Added "var. I" and "var. II" markers in background.
+ Added blank "comboburst.png"
+ Completed var. II main melody.
November 10, 2017:
= hpDrainRate 5 -> 8.7
= Modified var. II main melody.
November 7, 2017:
= Finished var. II cadenza.
November 4, 2017:
= Modified var. II cadenza.
= Copypasted var. I 2nd verse into var. II. Will modify it to fit the music.
6.6* ->
= AR 9.4 -> 9.6
= Modified var. II octave trills + gliss.
6.54* -> 6.6*
= Decreased difficulty of var. II octave trills.
7.4* ->6.54*
November 1, 2017:
= CS 4.2 -> 3.6
+ Snuck in some interesting patterns for var. I - 2nd verse. Funny how the order in which I map parts of the song is all over the place. Literally.
=+ Editing and adding parts for var. I - 1st verse. (80% complete)
= Finally fixed it. It would help if there was a better way than fixing it note by note.
= Made the big mistake of snapping objects to 1/3, turning all 1/4 adjacent notes into 1/6 doubles.
October 31, 2017:
= More tweaks to var. II opening-to-chorus section.
October 30, 2017:
= Edited section from var. II opening to chorus.
= Fixed some mistakes (thanks to iSwitch).
October 29, 2017:
= CS 3.4 -> 4.2
= OD 6 -> 7
To prevent notelock on 1/6 stream sections (thanks to "My angel ranko" for pointing it out).
= Replaced some sections outside var II.
October 28, 2017:
= CS 4.7 -> 3.4
To complement the lower OD as well as nerf beautiful but ridiculously difficult patterns to a reasonable level. Might change CS and OD as I make further progress.
October 27, 2017:
= OD 10 -> 6
A base safety net, because this map has a ridiculous amount of note distance changes.
+ Added after-cadenza 1/6 stream sections.
October 24, 2017:
= Working on var. II opening atm. As the base, I will map everything around it.
Parts of the Song
var. I
var. II
Mods:
NierMatrixArc (ign)
Vaarka (ign)
Green tiger
iSwitch
UnNVus
henry11hei (ign)
SimpleSmile (ign)
posted
Hi deemoplayer47

This is suggestion for me.

workinprogress
Extend the distance of the target.

00:02:273 (4) - End point does not match song.
00:03:273 (7) - End point does not match song.
00:06:023 (3) - End point does not match song.
00:07:023 (6) - End point does not match song.
00:07:523 (7) - End point does not match song.
00:08:023 (1) - End point does not match song.
00:11:898 (2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
00:16:773 (9) - Lay it on 00:16:523 (8) or it go away.
00:35:860 (7,8,9,10,11) - are narrow and hard to see.
00:38:684 (7,8,9,10,11) - are narrow and hard to see.
01:10:448 (9) - Put New Combo.
01:12:566 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - are narrow and hard to see.
01:26:507 (3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
01:27:742 (2,3,4) - Move those position by right.
01:29:860 (5) - Lay it on 01:29:772 (4) .
01:47:066 (10) - Move away from 01:47:154 (1) .
02:18:213 (9) - Put New Combo.
02:20:331 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:25:978 (9) - Put New Combo.
03:28:095 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:46:272 (3,4,1) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:48:390 (1,2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:50:684 (1,2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:51:919 (3,4,1) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:56:331 (1,2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:59:860 (1) - Remove New Combo.
04:00:213 (2) - Put New Combo.
04:02:684 (1) - Remove New Combo.
04:03:037 (2) - Put New Combo.
04:11:155 (3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
04:12:655 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - are narrow and hard to see.
04:13:273 (1,2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
04:24:037 (10,12) - Perhaps you have forgotten thie.


good luck :D
posted
Thank you very much!
reply to Green tiger's mod

Green tiger wrote:

Extend the distance of the target.

What do you mean?
I'll remember this for now since I understand how difficult learning a different language can be.
don't worry, Japanese language is one of the most difficult languages to learn :^)

00:02:273 (4) - End point does not match song.
00:03:273 (7) - End point does not match song.
00:06:023 (3) - End point does not match song.
00:07:023 (6) - End point does not match song.
00:07:523 (7) - End point does not match song.
00:08:023 (1) - End point does not match song.
00:11:898 (2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
00:16:773 (9) - Lay it on 00:16:523 (8) or it go away.
00:35:860 (7,8,9,10,11) - are narrow and hard to see.
00:38:684 (7,8,9,10,11) - are narrow and hard to see.

I'm actually working on var. II first (which is everything from 03:45:742 to the end; var. I is everything between 00:33:743 - 03:45:741). The reason why I'm working on the latter half of the song is that var. II represents the final difficulty spike in the song, with no created patterns and little to no broken patterns from var. I. I will design everything else around it. The parts you mentioned will be replaced with something far better.
Anyway, in depth:
00:02:273 (4) - End point does not match song.
00:03:273 (7) - End point does not match song.
00:06:023 (3) - End point does not match song.
00:07:023 (6) - End point does not match song.
00:07:523 (7) - End point does not match song.
00:08:023 (1) - End point does not match song.

I'm somewhat worried about increasing the difficulty of the beginning part (which includes those sliders), because that means I'll have to increase the overall difficulty. Which would mean difficulty spikes 03:56:331 - 04:08:202 (var. II opening), 04:56:331 - 05:04:801 and 05:15:390 - 05:17:507 (var. II cadenzas), and of course the infamous 05:28:801 - end (chromatic scale increase) will need more emphasis. Which means more notes, and I'll probably end up with a 9* map.
But I'll find a way.
00:11:898 (2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.

00:09:523 till var. I opening is meant to replicate how the hand moves across the piano. That said, I'll change it once I'm done with var. II.
00:16:773 (9) - Lay it on 00:16:523 (8) or it go away.

Again meant to be a piano motif. Previously, the notes stayed mostly to the bottom left corner of the screen. But now the melody goes 2 octaves up, and the ascension of notes represent this change. Will certainly change this though.
00:35:860 (7,8,9,10,11) - are narrow and hard to see.
00:38:684 (7,8,9,10,11) - are narrow and hard to see.

Meant to "draw" a clock spinning in reverse (with those overlapping parts being the minute hand and the hour hand), but I'll change it to something way better.
01:10:448 (9) - Put New Combo.

Ah, I totally overlooked it. xD alright
01:12:566 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - are narrow and hard to see.

Intended; it's a synthesia-ish piano motif.
01:26:507 (3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.

Intended, as it builds up suspense by progressively increasing note density. At 01:28:801, the suspense is released. It's a small buildup/spike but it goes along with the song. But seeing as the previous parts of the song show how note density is used, I know I have work to do there.
01:27:742 (2,3,4) - Move those position by right.

Intended (see comment above).
01:29:860 (5) - Lay it on 01:29:772 (4) .

Part of the piano motif, since (5) is a semitone higher than (4).
01:47:066 (10) - Move away from 01:47:154 (1) .

Part of the piano motif. But I do agree that I could've done better on 01:41:507 - 01:52:801.
02:18:213 (9) - Put New Combo.

Fixed. Thanks again!
02:20:331 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - are narrow and hard to see.

Part of the piano motif.
03:25:978 (9) - Put New Combo.

Fixed. xD
03:28:095 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - are narrow and hard to see.

03:46:272 (3,4,1) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:48:390 (1,2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:50:684 (1,2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
03:51:919 (3,4,1) - are narrow and hard to see.[/quote]
Part of the piano motif.
03:56:331 (1,2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.

Still part of the piano motif, but I agree it's a bit harder to read than the rest.
03:59:860 (1) - Remove New Combo.
04:00:213 (2) - Put New Combo.
04:02:684 (1) - Remove New Combo.
04:03:037 (2) - Put New Combo.

Still at a loss on this. Should I start New Combo on the first note of a downbeat, or on the group where it belongs?
04:11:155 (3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.
04:12:655 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - are narrow and hard to see.
04:13:273 (1,2,3,4,5) - are narrow and hard to see.

Piano motif.
04:24:037 (10,12) - Perhaps you have forgotten thie.

Indeed. xD
By "forgotten" I mean I forgot to replace (2)'s position with (9) and vice versa.

Anyway, regarding your mod, it's mostly about precise mistakes in my composition. It's good and all, and I admit that I haven't looked at those mistakes twice until I read your mod, but I appreciate if you add reason as to why certain notes feel better in this position than in that, why it's bad if certain notes are narrow and hard to see, or too close to each other, and so on. That's all from me. :)

Green tiger wrote:

good luck :D

Good luck too!
posted
Keep in mind that I'm total sh*t at both mapping and modding so I might just be saying crap (so if you don't agree you're most likely right) ^^'
Realy nice song and map you got there tho, keep it up ! <3

owo
04:16:184 (1) - I don't see what sound it is mapped to

04:19:625 (1,2) 04:19:978 (3,4) 04:20:331 (5,6) 04:20:860 (8,9) 04:21:213 (10,11) - [...] I feel like sliders would be more appropriate if you want an object every 1/2 (same for 04:22:448 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) - 04:25:272 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) and 04:28:095 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) )

04:56:331 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - I think overmapping this by making it into a simple 1/4 stream would make it far more playable

05:01:272 (21,22,23) - I think putting a 4th circle there would fit better
posted
reply to iSwitch's mod

iSwitch wrote:

04:16:184 (1) - I don't see what sound it is mapped to

Yeah, found out just now.. Glaring mistakes are really horrible ;-;
fixed, thanks!

iSwitch wrote:

04:19:625 (1,2) 04:19:978 (3,4) 04:20:331 (5,6) 04:20:860 (8,9) 04:21:213 (10,11) - [...] I feel like sliders would be more appropriate if you want an object every 1/2 (same for 04:22:448 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) - 04:25:272 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) and 04:28:095 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12)

var. II (03:45:742 onwards) uses less sliders than var. I because the focus is on the piano. It's also naturally difficult because it's an escalation of var. I (explaining the cadenza and increasing scale ICE added to it).

iSwitch wrote:

04:56:331 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - I think overmapping this by making it into a simple 1/4 stream would make it far more playable

The note arrangement fits the music. It's also far easier than 5:14:684, since it's a burst.

iSwitch wrote:

05:01:272 (21,22,23) - I think putting a 4th circle there would fit better

Yeah... Haven't completed cadenza yet. It's meant to have a lot of sliders because otherwise it's impossible to play. Also, that's how it was on its Extra Lv. in Deemo.

iSwitch wrote:

Keep in mind that I'm total sh*t at both mapping and modding so I might just be saying crap (so if you don't agree you're most likely right) ^^'
Realy nice song and map you got there tho, keep it up ! <3

It's fine, as long as I find sufficient help from it (and I did; it's easy for me to miss obvious mistakes). I'll take all the advice I can get.
Thanks. :)
posted
hi i mod

So the first thing I noticed was that you don't really fill out the full playfield well. The bottom right corner needs some love too, you know.
00:35:860 (7,8,9,10,11) - So here you ignore a concept called "time-distance equality". This idea essentially states that objects that are distant from each other in the timeline should be distant from each other on the playfield. How this relates to this specific pattern is that the notes 10,11 have the same spacing as 7,8,9 despite being much further apart in the timeline. You should make them more visually different from each other so the player can better comprehend the pattern while playing. Keep this concept in mind and review some of your other patterns as they also have this problem.
01:07:625 (1,2,3,4,5) - Another thing to keep in mind is visuals. Although this is far more subjective than the point above, there are some things that look generally appealing and others that generally don't. For example, compare this pattern with the one you had mapped. Which looks more appealing: the one that has a lot of visual "cluster" or the one that is spaced out more? Again this is primarily personal preference, but it's still a design concept worth keeping in mind.
01:09:742 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Your stream shapes feel very random to me. Taking this stream in context, I would assume the next stream to be a similar shape because the sounds are very similar (just reversed) but instead it looks totally different. It's understandable to make streams on certain sounds distinct, however you should be putting thought into what exactly you want to make distinct. Basically: similar stuff should be mapped similarly.
01:20:242 (3,4,5,6) - Just to reiterate an earlier point, stuff like this ignores time distance equality, which is confusing for the player.
01:22:448 (1,2,3,4,5,1) - Stuff like this looks cramped and awkward.
01:23:684 (4,5) - And these sounds are mapped totally different from how similar sounds were mapped earlier.
I'm not gonna go note by note and pick out each individual mistake, so you really should try to apply these concepts when you're looking through your map.
01:30:919 - You ignore a kinda unique rhythm here. Not exactly a problem, but if you ever wanted to introduce more variety you'd probably want to map the background sounds like this.
Also you're gonna wanna hit ctrl + shift + a and fix all the timestamps it gives you. It's all NC stuff but NC's are important.

Overall your map's presentation need work and the spacing concepts behind it do too. Also your map feels kinda structure-less which isn't really something I can give any more insight into aside from saying that you should look at other similar maps and try to see how objects are related within them (structure in a map is essentially just object relation, but it's very important for player comprehension). Do your best to look through the map and apply the concepts I talked about here throughout. I really like the song choice btw, osu! can always use more deemo music,

GL on this going forward!
posted

UnNVus wrote:

hi i mod

hi i map
reply to UnNVus's mod

UnNVus wrote:

So the first thing I noticed was that you don't really fill out the full playfield well. The bottom right corner needs some love too, you know.

Yeah... Overall note density is biased toward the SW-NE diagonal, and I tend to use the NW-SE diagonal for "weird" parts of the song.
There are several patterns I use for this map. First is the relation of pitch to the height (y-axis) of the note; the higher the pitch of the note in the song, the higher the corresponding note along the y-axis. As a result, the majority of tension comes from below and releases along the diagonal.

Second is the relation of note density to tension. In suspense, the spatial distance between notes decrease, while in release, the spatial distance between notes increase.

I don't know how my patterns fare, but they seem to make sense for me.

UnNVus wrote:

00:35:860 (7,8,9,10,11) - So here you ignore a concept called "time-distance equality". This idea essentially states that objects that are distant from each other in the timeline should be distant from each other on the playfield. How this relates to this specific pattern is that the notes 10,11 have the same spacing as 7,8,9 despite being much further apart in the timeline. You should make them more visually different from each other so the player can better comprehend the pattern while playing. Keep this concept in mind and review some of your other patterns as they also have this problem.

I'm trying to make it jumpy, and overall catchy, like the hooks of a song (repeating the same pattern but making very small changes per repeat). Yep, pretty sure it wasn't as catchy as it could've been. ;-; ok, got it

UnNVus wrote:

01:07:625 (1,2,3,4,5) - Another thing to keep in mind is visuals. Although this is far more subjective than the point above, there are some things that look generally appealing and others that generally don't. For example, compare this pattern with the one you had mapped. Which looks more appealing: the one that has a lot of visual "cluster" or the one that is spaced out more? Again this is primarily personal preference, but it's still a design concept worth keeping in mind.

That part of the music is kinda scary and sustained, so I wanted sliders that "strike" and "clash" into each other in a powerful "X" pattern, while still going with the rhythm. Originally the pattern was meant to look like a rose, but later on I figured it didn't make much sense, and also it's kinda hard to draw without turning the beat stagnant. It's really hard to combine "scary/horrifying" with a bit of "familiar/safe", will certainly change it several times

UnNVus wrote:

01:09:742 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Your stream shapes feel very random to me. Taking this stream in context, I would assume the next stream to be a similar shape because the sounds are very similar (just reversed) but instead it looks totally different. It's understandable to make streams on certain sounds distinct, however you should be putting thought into what exactly you want to make distinct. Basically: similar stuff should be mapped similarly.

Yeah, could've done better. If a pattern isn't recognized then that means I need to map it differently, or map in a way that lets the pattern be recognized easily.

UnNVus wrote:

01:20:242 (3,4,5,6) - Just to reiterate an earlier point, stuff like this ignores time distance equality, which is confusing for the player.

yeah... flow speed shouldn't vary too much
I noticed just now that very short "sustains" (specifically, parts of the song in G#) seem to become more dense. ._.

UnNVus wrote:

01:22:448 (1,2,3,4,5,1) - Stuff like this looks cramped and awkward.

Weird part. (F#) yea, will fix that too

UnNVus wrote:

01:23:684 (4,5) - And these sounds are mapped totally different from how similar sounds were mapped earlier.

Would've mapped them the same if not for 01:24:213 (1,2,3,4,5). I prioritize the melody of the song more than the beat.

UnNVus wrote:

I'm not gonna go note by note and pick out each individual mistake, so you really should try to apply these concepts when you're looking through your map.

got it ;)

UnNVus wrote:

01:30:919 - You ignore a kinda unique rhythm here. Not exactly a problem, but if you ever wanted to introduce more variety you'd probably want to map the background sounds like this.

Oh, yeah.. I ignored the violin there. I can try to make my mapping polyrhythmic at 01:30:919 - 01:41:419, yeah. Not sure how to do that, but I'll do it someday. I actually would've tried making 01:35:860 - 01:41:419 polyrhythmic instead of the whole because I deemed the violin not powerful enough to get its own beat.

UnNVus wrote:

Also you're gonna wanna hit ctrl + shift + a and fix all the timestamps it gives you. It's all NC stuff but NC's are important.

I certainly will. I often use Ctrl+Shift+A before saving/uploading. xD

UnNVus wrote:

Overall your map's presentation need work and the spacing concepts behind it do too. Also your map feels kinda structure-less which isn't really something I can give any more insight into aside from saying that you should look at other similar maps and try to see how objects are related within them (structure in a map is essentially just object relation, but it's very important for player comprehension). Do your best to look through the map and apply the concepts I talked about here throughout. I really like the song choice btw, osu! can always use more deemo music,

GL on this going forward!

Really seems that my way of beatmapping is expressionistic. I remember your advice very well, thank you for your time! :)

Finish line's more months longer than expected. Oh well.
posted
the hardest parts
03:57:741 (3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,1) -
04:03:389 (3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27) -
those part make unjustified spikes in the diff to 7,4 stars
04:19:800 (2) - It doesn't fit in the rhythm
04:20:153 (4) - ^^same problem ^^^^
04:20:506 (6) - ^^same problem ^^^^
04:21:036 (9) - ^^same problem ^^^^
04:21:212 (10,11) - a slider fit in better
04:28:271 (2,4,6,9) - It doesn't fit in the rhythm
04:29:683 (10,11) - A slider fin in better
05:14:800 (3) - this sharp angles make the stream not comfortable
05:15:506 (3) - ^^same problem ^^^^
05:15:918 (11) - ^^same problem ^^^^
05:16:094 (1) turning back also make it not comfortable

Conclusion
you seem to get how specing work
you don't get how stream work
often stream have smooth line
Anyway Good luck :3
posted
reply to henry11hei's mod

henry11hei wrote:

03:57:741 (3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,1) -
04:03:389 (3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27) -
those part make unjustified spikes in the diff to 7,4 stars


Wanted to emulate octave trills... *sigh*
Yeah, nerfed the distance. Had someone test the trills; told me it only looks easy, which is the opposite of what I wanted (it's supposed to look very hard but actually just fine). Still, I agree that the diff spike in that part is too high.

henry11hei wrote:

04:19:800 (2) - It doesn't fit in the rhythm
04:20:153 (4) - ^^same problem ^^^^
04:20:506 (6) - ^^same problem ^^^^
04:21:036 (9) - ^^same problem ^^^^
04:21:212 (10,11) - a slider fit in better
04:28:271 (2,4,6,9) - It doesn't fit in the rhythm
04:29:683 (10,11) - A slider fin in better


The rhythm here is in the mouse movement instead of the timing (the mouse movement is actually the same as in var. I). That, and this is var. II which is slightly more difficult. But now that you mention, I certainly want to improve this part.

henry11hei wrote:

05:14:800 (3) - this sharp angles make the stream not comfortable
05:15:506 (3) - ^^same problem ^^^^
05:15:918 (11) - ^^same problem ^^^^
05:16:094 (1) turning back also make it not comfortable


Ah, alright.. Will fix it soon
Overall my map is uncomfortable to play because it's more demanding on aim. As ICE's charts tend to be complex in structure (kinda denser), I want to give this map that type of difficulty where it's hardly about how well you can jump or stream, so I've been experimenting. I'm still not quite sure how to do this, really.

henry11hei wrote:

Conclusion
you seem to get how specing work
you don't get how stream work
often stream have smooth line
Anyway Good luck :3


Thanks for modding btw! appreciated ^^
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