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PP maps are not unethical!

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autoteleology

Mio Winter wrote:

I don't think Taiga needs to be attacked for anything, even if he/she sometimes plays maps that are easier to get PP from than Imperial Circus maps. It's mean to attack someone unnecessarily.
Oh, but everything he said to me is apparently fine, despite being way ruder and additionally completely pointless. It's just me you criticize. Go fuck yourself. At least what I said directly relates to my point, which is that the people who are the loudest critics of "le evil pp system" are usually the biggest exploiters of it. It's all insecurity.
Topic Starter
Mio Winter

Philosofikal wrote:

Mio Winter wrote:

I don't think Taiga needs to be attacked for anything, even if he/she sometimes plays maps that are easier to get PP from than Imperial Circus maps. It's mean to attack someone unnecessarily.
Oh, but everything he said to me is apparently fine, despite being way ruder and additionally completely pointless. It's just me you criticize. Go fuck yourself. At least what I said directly relates to my point, which is that the people who are the loudest critics of "le evil pp system" are usually the biggest exploiters of it. It's all insecurity.
I didn't know this was a continuation of an earlier feud. I just commented on what I saw.
autoteleology

Mio Winter wrote:

I didn't know this was a continuation of an earlier feud. I just commented on what I saw.
I'm talking about right now. Have you even read the thread? Why is it OK for me to be called an autistic retard on drugs if you're going to take it upon yourself to single people out for their arguing tactics?
Akanagi
Well, it's mostly a "camp"-mentality, partially formed of players who want to give themselves the benefit of the doubt by not playing PP maps at all so they can say "I could be way higher but I just don't play pp maps"


Then there's also the actual pp farmers who just want to rank up to give themselves a feeling of superiority by having such a high rank in a very low time, living under the illusion they're just that talented to "improve" much faster than everyone else, usually will also condemn any non-farm map as "cancer" or "shit map", because all they did was acquire the skillset needed to play said pp-maps.



If you're coming from League, you would call the PP-farmers "One-trick-ponies", simply because they can only really play those kind of maps, however this is the type of playstyle that will get you the furthest in terms of ranks in a short time.

And as in every game, there's also the unofficial ranking / pp-police that will call you out on this kind of stuff.



Obviously there are a lot of people in between. Some just don't care, some just play everything there is.
Funny enough, both groups mentioned above usually do this so they can think they're better than they actually are, whether it be by inflating your pp by playing maps optimized for pp-gain, or by said benefit of the doubt of never playing said maps.


edit: nice ava momiji
Topic Starter
Mio Winter

Philosofikal wrote:

Mio Winter wrote:

I didn't know this was a continuation of an earlier feud. I just commented on what I saw.
I'm talking about right now. Have you even read the thread? Why is it OK for me to be called an autistic retard on drugs if you're going to take it upon yourself to single people out for their arguing tactics?
Oh yeah, lots of the things he/she said to you after you attacked him/her were really rude, and I condemn them too. Using "autistic" as a swear word is bad enough in its own right. I didn't mention these things at first because they were delivered in defence.

I should make a note that if I'm going to take my moral hat on and start judging people for what they do, I ought to judge everyone for their due. : P
Topic Starter
Mio Winter

Rayne wrote:

Well, it's mostly a "camp"-mentality, partially formed of players who want to give themselves the benefit of the doubt by not playing PP maps at all so they can say "I could be way higher but I just don't play pp maps"

Then there's also the actual pp farmers who just want to rank up to give themselves a feeling of superiority by having such a high rank in a very low time, living under the illusion they're just that talented to "improve" much faster than everyone else, usually will also condemn any non-farm map as "cancer" or "shit map", because all they did was acquire the skillset needed to play said pp-maps.v

There's just no way to play without being accused of something is there? : P

I want to be in the camp that gets PP from maps that are hard to get PP from, so that I can claim to be underrated. (Because I think that would be cool, even if I'm not actually succeeding at it...) Gaining lots of PP in a short time by playing PP maps is also commendable because it's hard to do, but that's not the kind of cool I aim to be. Let's just say that it's OK to play osu! no matter how you play it, and it's not OK to attack people for playing certain kinds of osu!.
-Makishima S-

Mio Winter wrote:

Oh yeah, lots of the things he/she said to you after you attacked him/her were really rude, and I condemn them too. Using "autistic" as a swear word is bad enough in its own right. I didn't mention these things at first because they were delivered in defence.

I should make a note that if I'm going to take my moral hat on and start judging people for what they do, I ought to judge everyone for their due. : P
You should first spend some time to view history of this guy in GnR and why not only me is rude towards him. Then you will understand situation.
worst fl player
Fxjlk

[Taiga] wrote:

You should first spend some time to view history of this guy in GnR and why not only me is rude towards him. Then you will understand situation.
He was rude but he wasn't wrong, you do have a lot of farm maps in your top plays.
chainpullz
Now now guys, no reason to be so antagonistic here. Can't we all just drink beer click circles and be merry?
Fxjlk

[Taiga] wrote:

Saiya - Remote Control [Take Control!] +HD - map by Linda, barely anyone can DT this despite being low bpm, have tech aspects...... 5min map.... "farm map"
This may be just anecdotal experience or luck but I FCd that map on my first try for 257pp

It might have tech aspects but the map is very simple and repetitive and that outweighs the tech aspects.
-Makishima S-
It might have tech aspects but the map is very simple and repetitive and that outweighs the tech aspects.
Well, with this mentality most maps are farm maps, ESPECIALLY 10-15min (3-6k combo) marathons due how "easy patterns they have".
/shrug
KupcaH
every ranked map is farm map
Fxjlk

[Taiga] wrote:

Well, with this mentality most maps are farm maps, ESPECIALLY 10-15min (3-6k combo) marathons due how "easy patterns they have".
/shrug
No, there are many many many maps with slider speed variation, hard to read patterns, weird AR/bpm combos, mapping that accentuates the less prominent instruments etc.

Over half of my maps I play are not farm maps and I'm not going to run out ever.

When you get a combination of predictable, high OD, easy, repetitive patterns its a farm map. Also there is diminishing pp returns for maps beyond 2k combo approx so no most marathon maps are not farm maps.

99% percent of farm map haters are either
1) mappers who want their content to be preferred
2) people who don't understand mapping
3) elitists who are bad at playing and want to be seen as actually better than their rank because they don't play dirty farm maps

People who are neutral or just don't prefer farm maps are not "haters" I'm talking about people who say farm maps are cancer and are not joking.
N0thingSpecial

[Taiga] wrote:

Sakamoto Maaya - Okaerinasai (tomatomerde Remix) [Return] +HD - 6min map with bursts, low complexity patterns, 1735 combo map "farm map"..............
Don't know about the remote control one

But this one, I FCed this once with no mod back when I was 5 digit for them marathon pp, after entering 4 digit decided to re-FC it with HD cause it's easy, after breaking 6k pp and learning HR, decided to FC this with HDHR cause it's sweet marathon pp, and that's how I got a 294pp score from this map.

Trust me this is a pp map
B1rd

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

easy pp right over here
Good example of how music used to be objectively better.


N0thingSpecial wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

Sakamoto Maaya - Okaerinasai (tomatomerde Remix) [Return] +HD - 6min map with bursts, low complexity patterns, 1735 combo map "farm map"..............
Don't know about the remote control one

But this one, I FCed this once with no mod back when I was 5 digit for them marathon pp, after entering 4 digit decided to re-FC it with HD cause it's easy, after breaking 6k pp and learning HR, decided to FC this with HDHR cause it's sweet marathon pp, and that's how I got a 294pp score from this map.

Trust me this is a pp map
You need to make a distinction between farm maps and good maps that just so happen to give good PP. That map falls into the latter category, and I've FC'd it many times with and without hidden, not for PP but just because I like that map and its enjoyable (even though I think Azer is a douche).
N0thingSpecial

B1rd wrote:

You need to make a distinction between farm maps and good maps that just so happen to give good PP. That map falls into the latter category, and I've FC'd it many times with and without hidden, not for PP but just because I like that map and its enjoyable (even though I think Azer is a douche).
Are we talking about the same okaerinasai? Cause azer's is called "collab" and the one we're talking about is called "Return"

Also if I understand you correctly, are you saying the quality of the map affects the quality of the pp despite its still overweighted?
B1rd
I really don't keep up with the newest farm maps. Some one will make a good map and then half a dozen PP mappers will make ripoff farm maps of it.
Topic Starter
Mio Winter
Hey, it's not nice to call someone a "douche"!
B1rd
Why should I care what's "nice"? The purpose of forums is not to blow smoke up other people's arses.
N0thingSpecial
Yea exactly, fuk you B1rd.
Fxjlk

B1rd wrote:

Good example of how music used to be objectively better.
Music is nether purely subjective or objective

There is objective qualities to music however the perception of it is heavily effected by social conditioning [1] just like food. [2]

Music is heavily tied to memory, just by listening to a song you can feel like you are taken back to the time in your life you listened to it. You are attracted to music that expresses your identity. [3]

Therefore it is incorrect to say music is objective, since for the most part the perception of it depends on the person.

Music is subjective

[1] https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/bitstream ... sequence=1
[2] http://www.acrwebsite.org/search/view-c ... px?Id=7565
[3] http://faculty.georgetown.edu/irvinem/t ... y-1996.pdf
Topic Starter
Mio Winter
*Hype!* Philosophy debate incoming!

PS: I won't bother to read any dry academic articles, but I'll gladly consume any actual reasoning presented in posts here.
N0thingSpecial
Can we not turn this into a philosophy debate
Topic Starter
Mio Winter

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Can we not turn this into a philosophy debate
I say we define our moral axioms clearly and deduce our conclusions using formal logic. It should go something like this:

Premise 1: Suffering is bad and happiness is good.
???
Conclusion: PP maps are bad/good. And btw music is subjective/objective.
B1rd

Mio Winter wrote:

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Can we not turn this into a philosophy debate
I say we define our moral axioms clearly and deduce our conclusions using formal logic. It should go something like this:

Premise 1: Suffering is bad and happiness is good.
???
Conclusion: PP maps are bad/good. And btw music is subjective/objective.
That's what I did in the last thread.

By the way, looking at your blog, you really need to read Rand or something.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

B1rd wrote:

Good example of how music used to be objectively better.
Music is nether purely subjective or objective

There is objective qualities to music however the perception of it is heavily effected by social conditioning [1] just like food. [2]

Music is heavily tied to memory, just by listening to a song you can feel like you are taken back to the time in your life you listened to it. You are attracted to music that expresses your identity. [3]

Therefore it is incorrect to say music is objective, since for the most part the perception of it depends on the person.

Music is subjective

[1] https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/bitstream ... sequence=1
[2] http://www.acrwebsite.org/search/view-c ... px?Id=7565
[3] http://faculty.georgetown.edu/irvinem/t ... y-1996.pdf
Musical and other cultural events integrate individuals into groups (Gurvitch 1971), and at the same time
express and reinforce social values (Dalhaus 1982)


Because the values and moral framework of society has degenerated, so has the music. It's why I don't like modern music, I don't identify with the underlying values of the millennial generation at all, and I can identify far more with 70s rock music and even Rick Astley songs than with modern mainstream music.
Topic Starter
Mio Winter
Here's how I think that discussion can be productive.

When you're arguing whether to call a thing (here, music) a certain word (here, "subjective" or "objective") it is often very helpfwl to taboo those words (i.e. you're not allowed to use the words) and replace them with their intended meaning.

So if you want to say "music is objective", you can't. You have to say "music is such and such" where "such and such" is what you mean by "objective".

It may seem pointless at first, but it's very often usefwl because we often mean different things with big words like "subjective" and "objective", and replacing them with their meaning lets us bypass lots of confusion that would result from the different meanings.

PS: Sorry, N0thingSpecial. This has officially turned into a philosophy debate.
Topic Starter
Mio Winter

B1rd wrote:

By the way, looking at your blog, you really need to read Rand or something.
Why? : O
B1rd
Because you're a filthy altruist.
Topic Starter
Mio Winter

B1rd wrote:

Because you're a filthy altruist.
But I want to (try to) be.
Fxjlk

B1rd wrote:

you really need to read Rand or something.
I have read half of the fountainhead and so far I have a few concerns with the ideas presented so far.

I stopped reading after the point Roark met Dominique since the book stopped being grounded in reality and started to twist reason to the point things started seeming supernatural. Events occurred because people started knowing things based on "feeling" and the weird stare off between Dom and Roark after their weird coincidental meet up after Dom and Peter didn't work out was a bit much.

It tries to show that pure egoism is an ideal virtue and tries to degrade the supposed "opposite" using the character Peter. Peter is a strawman from the start, he is deeply flawed supposedly because he is the opposite of an egoist but I would argue that he is actually an egoist that is only concerned about others when it benefits him. The true difference between Peter and Roark is the congruence of their actions and their ideals. Peter is flawed not because of his lack of egoism but because of his lack of direction and the conflict of the different personas he has because of his lack of authenticity. Not to mention his shallow fascination with the superficial and his unawareness of his own ideals and emotions.

The book also portrays the two protagonists Roark and Dominique as superhuman at times to sell the ideals they portray. Roark is supposed to be the type who is immersed in architecture and antisocial but somehow he is able to read Peter like a book? You don't magically get social skills without being social. Also Peter had no problem with women at all but somehow when he meets Dom he is rejected and completely breaks down? This makes no sense at all.

Some of the ideas are good such as judging a person by the work they do but the book takes this way too far trying to paint the world in black and white rather than what it should be which is a shade of gray. Ideas are important, your interests are important but they should not be the only interest you have.
N0thingSpecial

Mio Winter wrote:

I say we define our moral axioms clearly and deduce our conclusions using formal logic. It should go something like this:

Premise 1: Suffering is bad and happiness is good.
???
Conclusion: PP maps are bad/good. And btw music is subjective/objective.
You find it amusing but after nearly 2k post I say it gets old real quick and I can accept the fact that people like B1rd can butcher the word subjectivity and objectivity without a problem
B1rd

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

B1rd wrote:

you really need to read Rand or something.
I have read half of the fountainhead and so far I have a few concerns with the ideas presented so far.

I stopped reading after the point Roark met Dominique since the book stopped being grounded in reality and started to twist reason to the point things started seeming supernatural. People started knowing things based on "feeling" and the weird stare off between Dom and Roark and their weird coincidental meet up after Dom and Peter didn't work out was a bit much.

It tries to show that pure egoism is an ideal virtue and tries to degrade the supposed "opposite" using the character Peter. Peter is a strawman from the start, he is deeply flawed supposedly because he is the opposite of an egoist but I would argue that he is actually an egoist that is only concerned about others when it benefits him. The true difference between Peter and Roark is the congruence of their actions and their ideals. Peter is flawed not because of his lack of egoism but because of his lack of direction and the conflict of the different personas he has because of his lack of authenticity. Not to mention his shallow fascination with the superficial and his unawareness of his own ideals and emotions.

The book also portrays the two protagonists Roark and Dominique as superhuman at times. Roark is supposed to be the type who is immersed in architecture and antisocial but somehow he is able to read Peter like a book? You don't magically get social skills without being social.

Some of the ideas are good such as judging a person by the work they do but the book takes this way too far trying to paint the world in black and white rather than what it should be which is a shade of gray. Ideas are important, your interests are important but they should not be the only interest you have.
Rand's books are largely formulaic. I wouldn't criticise them in that respect any more than I'd criticise 1984 for not being a perfect representation of totalitarian governments. It's not a literal interpretation of reality.

Peter's fault was allowing his values to be dictated by other people, he spent all his life chasing after success as defined by them. He achieved his goal of becoming famous but his fame was based on nothing but his persona that he had created and in the end it left him a broken man because he wasted his life. It does make sense that Peter was obsessed with Dominique. She was the ultimate embodiment of the unobtainable female so obviously a large part of his self-worth was dependent upon him getting her. So you are correct in your analysis but not in the conclusion that his fault was not a lack of egoism, if he were an egoist he would have look after his own self interest, and chosen what he wanted (Catherine) rather than chasing after societies idea of success and choosing Dominique.

And about Dominique and Roark? Let's face it, Rand had an obsessive personality, if she had been born today she would probably be writing Twilight fanfiction. She projects her own fantasies in to the book.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

You find it amusing but after nearly 2k post I say it gets old real quick and I can accept the fact that people like B1rd can butcher the word subjectivity and objectivity without a problem
What gets tedious is arguments about semantics.
N0thingSpecial

B1rd wrote:

What gets tedious is arguments about semantics.
That feeling is mutual
autoteleology

B1rd wrote:

What gets tedious is arguments about semantics.
Welcome to like 75% of philosophy, bickering about the technical details of organizational systems.

Mio Winter wrote:

Premise 1: Suffering is bad and happiness is good.
This premise is already rubbish.

http://existentialcomics.com/comic/42

I'm going to pass on rehashing this incredibly enthralling discussion. I'm not particularly interested in a second helping of breaking my foot off in a special someone's ass, because it wasn't time well spent the first go around even when I accomplished everything I expected.
B1rd

Philosofikal wrote:

B1rd wrote:

What gets tedious is arguments about semantics.
Welcome to like 75% of philosophy, bickering about the technical details of organizational systems.

Mio Winter wrote:

Premise 1: Suffering is bad and happiness is good.
This premise is already rubbish.

http://existentialcomics.com/comic/42

I'm going to pass on rehashing this incredibly enthralling discussion. I'm not particularly interested in a second helping of breaking my foot off in a special someone's ass, because it wasn't time well spent the first go around even when I accomplished everything I expected.
That comic isn't very hard to debunk. Its makes faulty assumptions and does a horrible job at defining happiness and suffering.
autoteleology

B1rd wrote:

That comic isn't very hard to debunk. Its makes faulty assumptions and does a horrible job at defining happiness and suffering.
I really love hearing about how easy doing something is from someone who then goes on to not do it.

Then again, considering how well you fared the last time you took me up on a challenge, maybe that's for the best.

I won't put in the effort again to refute you, but maybe I can spare a chuckle.
B1rd
Your claim that you "won" is based on nothing but your own assumption. I think I see a conflict of interest there. You didn't convince any one. It takes some serious effort to think yourself away from common sense that is apparent to most people, like happiness is good or the quality of art isn't completely subjective.

And then you complain that I didn't rebut your comic when you're the one who made an assertion without providing an argument in the first place. No, linking to some third-party material is not an acceptable substitute for an argument. And if I recall correctly, you still haven't responded to my last post about the topic.
chainpullz

N0thingSpecial wrote:

subjectivity and objectivity without a problem
One might argue that the objectivity of a given concept is highly subjective. "Common" sense isn't very common after all - if it exists at all. :^)
-Makishima S-

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

No, there are many many many maps with slider speed variation, hard to read patterns, weird AR/bpm combos, mapping that accentuates the less prominent instruments etc.

Over half of my maps I play are not farm maps and I'm not going to run out ever.

When you get a combination of predictable, high OD, easy, repetitive patterns its a farm map. Also there is diminishing pp returns for maps beyond 2k combo approx so no most marathon maps are not farm maps.

99% percent of farm map haters are either
1) mappers who want their content to be preferred
2) people who don't understand mapping
3) elitists who are bad at playing and want to be seen as actually better than their rank because they don't play dirty farm maps

People who are neutral or just don't prefer farm maps are not "haters" I'm talking about people who say farm maps are cancer and are not joking.
We could actually just agree to what Momiji said, everyone HAVE his own "pp farm" threshold. It depends on your ability to aim, read, snap... and right now ESPECIALLY speed. I could say - having speed makes you a better farmer since it opens you to way wider amount of maps which can be farmed.

For many people this map:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/352714
Is a nice pp farm map - simple readable patterns, not too high AR (I think its AR10 with DT on last diff), few bursts, just sit and farm till you get enough pp from it. But what it require?
Stable 210 bpm - trust me, there are people even in 4/3-digit groups who cannot play anything above 200 bpm. It looks like some kind of magical barrier because it holds down many players to the point where even maps like Kakushigoto are painfull and almost impossible to FC.
On side note - it is not matter of work out your speed in my case, long time ago I spend numerous amount of time playing only 200+ with mindset that having speed will just benefit my strongest skill which is consistency and only thing what it gave me is burn out of this game to the point where I just randomly run it and play just for sake to not forget how to click circles and hope one day I will get my motivation back.

So - at this point - people who don't have speed are limited and many maps what for one person was "ez pp", for them most like was cost of hard work to get this pp - do you call it at this point "pp farm"? For you it is, for them, it doesn't since they worked their ass and got FC either after 30-40-50+ retry as a lucky run.

Consistency - comes to the point where for one people long maps and marathons might be a farm maps due they doesn't really feel any nerves, they learned how to deal with them etc. For majority however, long maps are not a farm maps and will never be. Consistency is hardest, right after streaming skillset to maintain since it include dealing with nerves as they grow while you go to the end of map. Also, from my own experience, dealing with annoying songs is also hard, focusing for 5-6-7+ min while song is not in your taste just adds difficulty.

As you can see - map being a farm map is subjective at many points.

Now from mapping point of view:

Right now we have era of making a 30 second pure jump maps for sake of giving out gigantic amount of pp for just a one particular skillset - jump aim. How benefit from it? Everyone, like literally everyone. You must agree that jumping is a basic skillset which is in high tendency to be developed first. Considering how maps are builded and calculated, right now it is just a race between mappers who will squeeze more pp from shortest possible song. Again - it benefits all people, short song, even people without speed might just go through the pain and somehow get a score there, it is not a big deal to play for this 18-20sec.

I couldn't call out "people who doesn't know anything about mapping" so easily - In my opinion better judgment about playability and general map quality have players who can FC map with ease, even with mods - speaking about high tier players. Mappers know map from technical point but lets be honest - someone like Monstrata who cannot play his own maps for shit, cannot tell how players will feel about it (example of cookie monster being widely called out as garbage trash, yet Monstrata thinks its better than 98% of maps created this days). Yet - players have nothing to say about maps... that's why we have - what we have, playerbase split apart for this who hate pure pp maps and this who support them because they give extremely easy ranking points.

As I stated in one of posts in this forum - I tend to go for them but as much as it is in my power, I try to keep map being at least 2 min drain time after DT. So far it works, I feel less trashy but again, I don't hide that I am in group who support balanced maps over pure pp farm. Yet, my "pp farming" threshold is low, as I am speed capped + not motivated to play either for ranks or for progression (reason why I cba to even try to improve my remote control score and my overall acc drop over time).

"Haters" as you call it, yes, we are haters of pure pp farm maps, myself, I had moments of peace and just "don't give a single fuck" which created this mess in my top ranks but I wasn't able to hold down for long, probably after harumachi spam, I wasn't able to hold on and again started to hate whole idea of mapping for pure pp. I could just say to myself "pp farmers benefit from speed but others can just learn HDHR and farm this kind of maps". Yet:
- HDHR is way harder to learn than HDDT at range where people actually benefit from pure pp farm maps (due HDDT giving out AR9.6 and often OD9 while HDHR puts everything at 10 + higher CS which makes aiming harder)
- HDHR gives significant lower amount of pp from this maps which again puts speed players at heavy advantage in term of gaining ranks
- HDHR is generally not recommended for 5-digits (this statement comes from my own questions towards top ranked players who also stream, everyone said same thing, get your first 300pp nomod or HD then try to learn HR)
So what we have left? Right now practically nothing, people blessed with physical ability to work out their speed will benefit greatly from actual meta while slower players will just slowly go up or stay at their own rank (speaking about this not talented who most of the time work out for each score). Talented people will not have problem at all and they are mainly in group "I don't care".

For you I might have many "pp farm maps" in top ranks, for me some of them were actually a workout to get an actual score. You should get the point from now on, I look forward for nice discussion.
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