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posted

Ongaku wrote:

"For you."

For me? When did I become a target of this topic. You sound very personal in something that should be public. Are you also implying that the mapping community should not have a say in this?

I might have phrased it incorrectly by using "should," but regardless, my statement still stands. I'll rephrase it, "Thats exactly why the PP system is flawed. The "Fun" for players at the moment is earning ranks via pp. The players CAN appreciate the map AND the mapper for it's fun in terms of gameplay, not in terms of earning pp, but chooses not to because they find more satisfaction in earning PP."
I'm going to keep saying that until you stop giving your opinion as fact.

The purpose of mapping is to get people to play the game. You know what the best maps are? The ones that get played and make people play the game. That's pretty much the closest thing anyone can objectively point to as an unquestionably positive attribute. For better or worse, the primary objective of any organizational body is to be self-sustaining.
posted
mmm tbh players have a different perspective of mapping, they really don't care much if the map fit the song properly, concepts etc. That's why I don't think a discussion about mapping between players and mappers is any good-
posted

Philosofikal wrote:

I'm going to keep saying that until you giving your opinion as fact.

The purpose of mapping is to get people to play the game. You know what the best maps are? The ones that get played and make people play the game. That's pretty much the closest thing objectively point to and say "hey, this is an unquestionably positive attribute". For better or worse, the primary objective of any organzizational body is to be self-sustaining.
"The purpose of mapping is to get people to play the game."

Yes, but you're entirely disregarding the mapper's PoV in this situation.

"You know what the best maps are? The ones that get played and make people play the game."

You know why diversity is important? because it keeps everything new and interesting. Maps that repeats the same forumla, in this case, the "abuse sharp angles and comfortable movement and extreme rhythm simplification and low SV and giant 5 second diffspikes." Eventually people will grow tired of it and the game will end up dying due to lack of "creativity," which is why WE, as mappers, are trying to encourage unique mapping concepts.

We are also players, not just only mappers.
posted

Natsu wrote:

mmm tbh players have a different perspective of mapping, they really don't care much if the map fit the song properly, concepts etc. That's why I don't think a discussion about mapping between players and mappers is any good-
Thats probably also one of the issues, lack of communication.
posted

Ongaku wrote:

Philosofikal wrote:

I'm going to keep saying that until you giving your opinion as fact.

The purpose of mapping is to get people to play the game. You know what the best maps are? The ones that get played and make people play the game. That's pretty much the closest thing objectively point to and say "hey, this is an unquestionably positive attribute". For better or worse, the primary objective of any organzizational body is to be self-sustaining.
"The purpose of mapping is to get people to play the game."

Yes, but you're entirely disregarding the mapper's PoV in this situation.
What is stopping mappers from making whatever they want as long as it adheres to technical guidelines? Do they believe that they have an entitlement to popularity just because they made a map? Why are they mapping just to get popular?

"You know what the best maps are? The ones that get played and make people play the game."

You know why diversity is important? because it keeps everything new and interesting. Maps that repeats the same forumla, in this case, the "abuse sharp angles and comfortable movement and extreme rhythm simplification and low SV and giant 5 second diffspikes." Eventually people I will grow tired of it and the game will end up dying due to lack of "creativity."
No, they won't, because they have different values than yours.

I guess now you've shifted to "they have these values because they are immature players, they'll eventually see my superior values"?
posted
"What is stopping mappers from making whatever they want as long as it adheres to technical guidelines? Do they believe that they have an entitlement to popularity just because they made a map?"

We can make what ever we want, nothing will stop us. What stops us is if we want to rank that, we must adhere to the guidelines. We must compromise, we accept to do so once we "want to rank a map." Which is where the modding system comes in. Currently, modding v2 is being tested, so we do know that the system is being improved.

Of course, not all of us would expect popularity, but I myself and many other mappers, hope that our maps won't go noticed.


"No, they won't, because they have different values than yours. I guess now you've shifted to "they have these values because they are immature players"."

You say people have different values, yet you use your values to represent the entire player base. You forget we mappers are also players.
posted

Philosofikal wrote:

B1rd wrote:

Here comes social justice warrior to the rescue, to explain to us all that having mapping standards - or standards in general - are, in fact, a result of patriarchy and white nationalists!
Are you seriously so intellectually lazy that you really thought that's what I meant?

My actual point is that the every piece of the underlying logic and reasoning you used to form your opinion is toxic, and that the exact same reasoning you're using very easily leads to stuff way more terrible than being an egotistical douche about art. You have the scary combination of having illusory superiority on a mostly subjective matter, and the simultaneous belief of being a threatened minority. People who think just like the way you are right now are legendary for their ability to cause problems for everyone else.

You heard it folks, Vivaldi's Four Seasons is not actually a masterpiece, any more than Justin Bieber's Baby is masterpiece, it's all up to the eye of the beholder :^)
You're right, it's not. Please attempt to prove otherwise. I would really love to watch you try to objectify the subjective and slowly come to the realization that your music is only a "masterpiece" for the exact same reasons that Baby is a masterpiece (popularity), except the people who like one or the other have different values. Go ahead, shoulder the impossible task of proving your emotions are objectively superior.

Oh, while I'm here, I can very easily explain why pp maps are fun. They make the objectively difficult subjectively easy.

You like maps that make the objectively easy subjectively difficult.
Why do you think that I was derogatory towards you when you try to imply that people having a discussion about criticisms of PPv2 have the same underlying psychology as white supremacists? Your pathology of a social justice warrior sticks out like a sore thumb, it's laughable to think your "ideas" could be constructive in any way.

Now, what are these evil ideas that I have that are so problematic? Well, that's the idea that good is intrinsically good and bad is intrinsically bad. Good could roughly be defined as pleasure - not necessarily pleasure of the hedonistic kind but the kind that is more wholesome - and bad could be defined as pain. Of course you could do a lot more to elaborate on those definitions but simplified terms will do for the sake of the argument. Once you have accepted that simple premise you can use those values to make value judgements of deeds and entities and infer morality. And you really can't dispute that premise, it doesn't matter what your beliefs or values are, no one likes pain and being the recipient of unnecessary suffering. Thus, we can make the conclusion that some emotions and values are superior to others. Those values which are beneficial to yourself and society are good, and vice versa.

Now you might say that "interpretation of music is subjective", and it is to a certain degree, but not infinitely so like you seem to imply. There is only a finite amount of plausible interpretations of a given piece of art, and in the case of music, those variables are things like the harmony and melody, speed and intensity, complexity, the effort and skill required to produce, the historical and cultural context, et cetera. Classical music is more complex, it has more variation in the melodies that compliment each other in an overarching structure. It takes great talent, skill, discipline and sacrifice to create; composers and musicians often dedicate their whole lives to creating music that others will love. And due to the aforementioned traits, it inspires different emotions than that of Justin Bieber's music: it inspires admiration of the beauty of the world and the desire to strive to the ideal of human greatness; that is, spending your whole life doing something truly worthwhile to create something of value to your fellow man. Because classical music is an embodiment of that - it's a reveling of beauty and a celebration of humanity. The same cannot be said about Justin Bieber's music, which inspires vapid teenage girls to worship a horrible role model. It doesn't take great skill to create or produce, often songs like this aren't even written by the artists who supposedly wrote it, the music is all electronically generated according to some general algorithms, and the vocalist is assisted with autotune. Then it is mass-marketed to the masses to ensure popularity. I could elaborate a lot more on what values and emotions different kinds of music invoke, but suffice it to say, Vivaldi's Four Seasons inspire more noble, better, and more worthwhile values than Justin Bieber's songs.

Unlike what you say, I don't have an motivations of "elitism" or a desire to elevate myself over other people. My motivation stems from my love of beauty, of which people like you say don't exist, or would say that a turd has more beauty than a rose if enough people thought that. No, I'd definitely say that post-modernists like you have done far more harm to our society than people like me.




Railey2 wrote:

Anyway, I agree with Philisophikal. B1rd would probably argue that complexity means that something must be better, which is a completely arbitrary standard just like popularity or the quality of something being more purple than something else.
"Songs by Justin Bieber are just as much masterpieces as compositions by Vivaldi, because complexity is an arbitrary criteria and popularity is the only real measurement of quality"

-Railey, 2017

It's amazing what intellectual sinkholes one can find themselves in when they let their bigotry and arrogance get in the way of truth and reasoning. Keep on following your friend here and see where it gets you.
posted

Natsu wrote:

mmm tbh players have a different perspective of mapping, they really don't care much if the map fit the song properly, concepts etc. That's why I don't think a discussion about mapping between players and mappers is any good-
Yeah pretty much. At least i don't care at all.
Really old maps also don't fit the music but oh boy there is much fun to be had playing those.
But i wouldn't say aesthetics matter that much, even though most pp maps are perfect in that.

Shiirn wrote:
hey do you think my maps are good i'm curious as to how you compare them to comfortable, easy-to-play "fun" maps tanks
Railey2 wrote:
To me, technical stuff is fun when I can play it moderately well.

I'm a pretty decent player myself so I can say that I liked playing most of them. Except the final diff of routing, that one was simply too hard to be fun to me. Can't claim that I played all of your maps. Koan Sound is pretty dope, though.

I really dig your choice of music in general. Great taste.
If i may add something here, then i'd say that as far as gimmicky maps are concerned i really like the chinese mappers.
From western mappers pretty much only Shiirn and ktgster maps are the ones that I find really fun.
Anything hollow wings puts out is quite fun, 09kami is also amazing. Maybe i just like chinese mappers. I guess i let skystar pass.
I'm not sure if we can consider pishi maps technical, but i really don't like those.Nothing against pishi but I find Milan maps to be quite unfun aswell and they look pretty similiar to me.

Priti, and rlc are pretty popular but meh, i don't know man.
Maybe I'm just biased cuz i suck ass on high bpm.
posted
I don't think it ruins mapping because mappers can do what they want. It's more about ruining the game for everyone who cares about pp.

Having the strongest positive feedback game mechanic in the game be biased towards the same things for so long does condition people to enjoy those things. The more biased the pp system is, the smaller the subset of mapping styles the ones who like pp the most are driven to play.
posted
"I don't think it ruins mapping because mappers can do what they want. It's more about ruining the game for everyone who cares about pp."

Yes, mappers and players can do what they want, but the issue isn't about what the player or mapper wants, but the PP that is influencing what they want. Players want more pp, mappers want more recognition (in other terms, for players to keep playing their maps). There are many ways for a mapper to gain recognition, but the best way for players to gain ranks is through "pp maps", so they'll keep playing them. The incentive for the playerbase is just larger than the mapper's incentive to encourage/map diversely, all because the current system that offers the playerbase too much.

Think of it as, uh, a drug that was supposed to help people, but they end up abusing it and it began affecting everyone around you negatively, just less serious.
posted
okay so uhhhh

speaking as a mapper of quite a long time (i like to think of myself as "experienced" as a mapper and modder, while i never really dedicated myself physically enough to be able to play, I understand quite a bit about how maps play in general)

i'd like to point out that during the era before ppv1 and ppv2, mapping was 100% about how players experienced the map - not how well it played, not how much fun it was, but how it expressed the music and what kind of cool ideas or interesting functions it can do to represent the music

in other words, mappers mapped their maps to be played and to provide an experience to the player - yes, most often that vague "fun" everyone tries to race after - and practically ignored all concepts regarding score or difficulty - except when the purpose of the map was expressly to be a challenge in one way or another (the famous BIG BLACK challenging jumping, my infamous chipscape challenging stamina and reading). because there was no "official" metric to judge anything by, and the star rating system capped out an extremely easy-to-hit 5*, people judged every map based off its own merit and comparing it to other maps. literally the only number people cared anything about in mapping was the number of plays they got, and even then it was only a "wow this did way better/worse than i thought" kind of thing

with an official metric being introduced in ppv2, mapping naturally was influenced by this, no matter what anyone might say otherwise - how often do you ever see anti-jumps, or stacked streams, or other such techniques that are completely invisible to the difficulty metric? techniques that evoked emotional or visceral responses in players, knowledge that was only useful for mapping for the player, these fell to the wayside - what became important was numbers - star rating, difficulty settings, pp results, accuracy and its effect on pp, and things like that

mapping became about mapping for the rating system and its perception of player experience, rather than experimenting and figuring out how players really felt via peer review and experience.


Numbers became more important to mapping than people.


and if you can't see how this might be kind of a bad idea then you clearly can't be convinced by anything
posted

Railey2 wrote:

I disagree. The whole ranking process is a system that was set into place for a singular purpose: To deliver great content to players so that THEY can enjoy the game to it's fullest extent. If you eat up the resources of said system by taking the time of the people that work for it, your mapping should be 100% in line with the objective of the system: Creating fun for the player.


Now if you're just mapping around on your own, you can obviously do what you want. But if you try to get maps ranked, you should think about the player first. If you see mapping as your personal song-reflection art project, you're certainly missing the point.

This doesn't mean that the end result can't be good. I'm sure pishi has many fans that like his mapping for what it is. Personally, I find that it gets quite stale. Some of his maps are plain boring to me, the Shelter-one he showed in his video included.

If the wrong ideas infiltrate the process itself, we end up with Shiirn having to re-map his Routing map for 71 years. And that's bad as well.
You seem to forget that there are other people like me who actually likes the shelter map. I should rephrase, there is no incentive to cater to a specific group of players

The ranking process is to ensure quality while keeping mapper's intention in mind, that's why shelter was ranked in the first place, pishifat is catering to people who enjoys to have emotional feedback from maps, modders and beatmap nominators recognize that and polish his map while keeping the emotional aspect of the map
posted
just wait for moddingv2 to kick in and loved to get revamped so then you can have maps that people will have complimented with whatever thing moddingv2 calls it and then it becomes liked and then you can see all the maps that people really like and why they like it and then you can be like "nah i don't like it when maps do that" or "yeah i like it when maps do that" and then you can add more maps to your folder

it'd be nice if they added on a "new loved maps" thing too on the side like they have for ranked maps and most played ranked maps, just so people can know about it

but then the problem is that those loved maps aren't ranked and people want rank because i love pp and it's too bad a map can't be both loved and ranked because that wouldn't make sense

and then another problem is that there are unranked maps that deserve a spot in the sun and the requirement for loved might be so high that entry isn't frequent (which, it should be, since loved is quite the title).

approved revamp? yet another category for cool unranked maps? :thinking:
posted
Gonna try to keep this concise because honestly reading through the entirety of this thread is pretty pointless already.

I think the bigger complaint isn't about maps giving pp. We still have plenty of creative maps etc. What is suffering is the variety within the less creative pop song maps. As has probably been pointed out, the "pp maps" have all converged on a very very specific formula. Mappers that mapped pop songs nicely but that were still reasonable to farm include rizia (wkyik), laurier, cryo, and pre-miraizu fycho among others.

Most of the people who are complaining about pp mapping don't actually enjoy the more creative maps and the furthest they stray from their pop songs is post-2105 skystar style mapping. When it comes to things like shiirn/byfar/etc. they typically don't find as much enjoyment (judging based off how long they spend playing these kinds of maps before switching to more normal maps). While I don't fully agree with Railey he does make a few agreeable points.
posted
Oh dear, let me keep this simple as possible because this thread is no different than a 70 page legal document read at this point.

While everyone is begging for mapping meta to be more diverse, stop and consider where we came from and what we tried to solve. We came from an era where maps were poorly timed, had awful flow, at even had mappers troll players on slider ends once upon every several maps. Since then, we started coming out with maps that have better timing, better flow, and less gimmicks to screw the player over. This improvement in mapping allows to create maps that have good jumps at higher BPM. Most players want to go play faster maps that are easier regardless of pp. That's why you have lobbies full of 100k ranks playing 6* maps, and those who map for pp just do it for popularity and memes because modders let them. It's more fun to go fast and be good at it, and players will take any map that allows them to. I will be looking forward to the time when the next monstrata cracks out a readable 180BPM 1/8 jump map that flows and works. Until then, just map what you like.
posted

abraker wrote:

Oh dear, let me keep this simple as possible because this thread is no different than a 70 page legal document read at this point.

While everyone is begging for mapping meta to be more diverse, stop and consider where we came from and what we tried to solve. We came from an era where maps were poorly timed, had awful flow, at even had mappers troll players on slider ends once upon every several maps. Since then, we started coming out with maps that have better timing, better flow, and less gimmicks to screw the player over. This improvement in mapping allows to create maps that have good jumps at higher BPM. Most players want to go play faster maps that are easier regardless of pp. That's why you have lobbies full of 100k ranks playing 6* maps, and those who map for pp just do it for popularity and memes because modders let them. It's more fun to go fast and be good at it, and players will take any map that allows them to. I will be looking forward to the time when the next monstrata cracks out a readable 180BPM 1/8 jump map that flows and works. Until then, just map what you like.
Nothing in your post is relevant to the discussion at hand. PPv2 had nothing to do with maps getting better that's just a result of natural progression and mappers getting better."Fast maps" also have nothing necessarily to do with farm maps. The fast maps you see in multiplayer are rarely farm maps, and in fact, in multiplayer farm maps are usually pretty rare, which goes to show what people like to play when they're not farming for PP.
posted

B1rd wrote:

Nothing in your post is relevant to the discussion at hand.
Calling the shot? Ok this better be good, let's see where this will go.

B1rd wrote:

PPv2 had nothing to do with maps getting better that's just a result of natural progression and mappers getting better.
That's what I am trying to say. Thank you.

B1rd wrote:

"Fast maps" also have nothing necessarily to do with farm maps.
Yes, correct! It's just the desire to play faster stuff while being good at it. You don't need it to be ranked, although it does help bring its popularity to be found and played in multi, but that's besides the point.

B1rd wrote:

The fast maps you see in multiplayer are rarely farm maps, and in fact, in multiplayer farm maps are usually pretty rare, which goes to show what people like to play when they're not farming for PP.
You can't really have a 100k rank player do a 6* like I said and call it a farm map, can you?

I am not sure if you wanted to go against my point and ended up shooting yourself in the leg, or you tried to agree in a way it looks an arguement against my point, but whatever it is, you've done it well.
posted
If you didn't understand the point of my post, let me repeat, Nothing in your post was relevant to the discussion at hand. You can somehow write a whole paragraph of analysis and still miss the point entirely, and then go into a whole derisive tirade because I pointed out that fact. Your argumentation methods leave a lot to be desired.
posted

B1rd wrote:

If you didn't understand the point of my post, let me repeat, Nothing in your post was relevant to the discussion at hand. You can somehow write a whole paragraph of analysis and still miss the point entirely, and then go into a whole derisive tirade because I pointed out that fact. Your argumentation methods leave a lot to be desired.
Please stop posting in my thread, i mean it. Abrakers post was perfectly topical, he backed me up in regard to my claim that pp-mapping (aka readable easy to hit jumps) are intrinsically fun to play. That was one of the, if not THE main point of my thread: Don't just dismiss easy to hit readable jumps as a shit-meta that is worth nothing and harms the game/community. I would know, I wrote the thing. Sometimes i really don't know what's going on in your head.

Yeah yeah i said that i wouldn't entertain you further, and so far i did well not responding to you, but holy cow i seriously can't look at this.
posted
Protip: you don't own the thread, you have absolutely no authority to tell me if I can or cannot post in it.

And regarding your claim that abraker was backing up your point, he wasn't, as he said, jump spam maps =/= farm maps.
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