what the shit is this thread lmao
If you weren't lazy, then you'd know.Mun wrote:
what the shit is this thread lmao
Your claim that farm maps have a "fun factor" that is separate from the PP they give is completely unfounded. The proposition that the maps that are most fun to play also coincide perfectly with the farmiest maps is ridiculous. It's obvious that if you use a strict arbitrary formula to create "art", it won't be good, because the virtues of creative endeavors are, among other things, that they are the product of creative effort, they are expressive and unique. Farm maps are "fun" because people find getting PP is fun, it's not because of any intrinsic value of the maps, their popularity is based solely on the fact that they fulfill the practical function of giving people PP.Railey2 wrote:
B1rd, I have to thank you. I was worried that people would accuse me of strawmanning, but you blew all of these concerns out of the water.
You heard it here first: If you like pp-jumps you are one of these mindless pop-music consuming sheep, and if you like anything else you are a sophisticated gentleman that listens to Vivaldi's Four Seasons.
"Maybe it's elitism", he says. Well, I think I've got bad news for you... What do we call people again that are proud to listen to classical and think of everyone else as lower?
It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line?
You know what else came from a figurative factory line?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... io_Vivaldi
mind = blown
Now that we've gone full circle, may I just point out that this ppv2 mapping formula is very popular with many people, not for the pp it gives but for how it plays?
Why exactly does them using a formula mean that the output will be "bad"? It's simple to read, simple to play, abides by all technical standards.. so what's the problem?
Read Yolshka's response, for example. Do you really wish to shit all over people like him, calling them plebs and whatnot? I certainly wouldn't shit over technical maps, hell I even like technical maps myself. I'm a big fan! I've been playing more unranked than ranked when I was still actively playing.
Yes, pp-maps are at the top of most played. But not just because they are "farmy". They are also FUN. To many many people. That's kind of the point of this thread: I dislike it when people completely devalue a meta without second thought.
Also
holy shit my dude, if it wasn't for the lovely sig I have, this would be my new sig right now.B1rd wrote:
Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?
Here comes social justice warrior to the rescue, to explain to us all that having mapping standards - or standards in general - are, in fact, a result of patriarchy and white nationalists!Philosofikal wrote:
In my opinion, the entire attack against pp maps and the people who like them is driven almost entirely by the misdirected self-hatred of insecure elitists who, in the failure to meet their expectations of themselves, need to take down others who they view as not having "earned their place". The exact same bullshit mentality is what drives people to become incels and white nationalists (see image).
Nobody gets to objectively define what is fun or good, and if you think you do, you have a bad case of USI. Art is inherently subjective, no art has intrinsic value.Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.
You heard it folks, Vivaldi's Four Seasons is not actually a masterpiece, any more than Justin Bieber's Baby is masterpiece, it's all up to the eye of the beholder :^)Philosofikal wrote:
Masterpieces to who? You? The moment where something goes from "I really like this" to "this is objectively good and only an idiot can't see its value" is the moment where you've taken a wrong turn straight up your own ass.
This p/6252521N0thingSpecial wrote:
This argument has been presented countless times but do you honestly think there's better way to represent a typical pop song using very predictable rhythm, melody and structure, like how creative can you get with a TV size anime song? is the inferior quality coming from the lack of complexity from the music or is the inferior quality coming from comparing to relatively similar songs with similar maps? And ultimately can the arbitrary criteria of PPv2 contribute to lost of quality if spacing flow and aesthetics quality are good enough for TV size anime maps?
What the hell did I just read, srsly.Philosofikal wrote:
In my opinion, the entire attack against pp maps and the people who like them is driven almost entirely by the misdirected self-hatred of insecure elitists who, in the failure to meet their expectations of themselves, need to take down others who they view as not having "earned their place". The exact same bullshit mentality is what drives people to become incels and white nationalists (see image).
Nobody gets to objectively define what is fun or good, and if you think you do, you have a bad case of USI. Art is inherently subjective, no art has intrinsic value.Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.
One sentence in and it's already bullshit.B1rd wrote:
Your claim that farm maps have a "fun factor" that is separate from the PP they give is completely unfounded.
Lmao ikrMun wrote:
what the shit is this thread lmao
ikrN0thingSpecial wrote:
Lmao ikrMun wrote:
what the shit is this thread lmao
Any so your rant ends on the inevitable and predictable note of accusing people who have a different opinion than you of being "assholes" and being "crazy". It really is a testament to how much of a small man you are, you can't even conclude an argument without trying to invalidate the other's argument with a slew of ad hominems. Pretty much everyone else in this thread can be mature and reasonable, why can't you?Railey2 wrote:
"It's obvious that if you use a strict arbitrary formula to create "art", it won't be good, because the virtues of creative endeavors are, among other things, that they are the product of creative effort, they are expressive and unique."
You're saying that following the pp-mapping formula leaves mappers almost no creative freedom? That's simply wrong. If that was true, farm maps would be way more similar to one another than they really are.
Talking about strict formulas.. Did you know that this set form was one of the greatest selling points of classical music? And people loved it! Only because you have some rules/a general framework, doesn't mean that creative freedom is dead.One sentence in and it's already bullshit.B1rd wrote:
Your claim that farm maps have a "fun factor" that is separate from the PP they give is completely unfounded.
Did you just choose to ignore my Red like roses and Highscore examples? N0thingSpecial made another example with Ame to Asphalt.
But it's unfounded, sure. Why do I even argue with People like you? Don't post here again, you're obviously just trying to spin this the way you want. I won't entertain you any further.
"but a lot of pop music is indisputably trash, and the people who listen to it are most likely trash as well."
holy shit my dude. You really are an asshole.
"Considering that music is to a large degree a reflection of your own soul, people who listen to superficial and shameless music are likely to exhibit the same traits in their own personality."
you know for with most other people I'd just say that this is trolling and move on, but you've really done a great job at being consistently crazy over the years. I've seen many hilariously stupid things, but this is something else.
hey do you think my maps are good i'm curious as to how you compare them to comfortable, easy-to-play "fun" maps tanksRailey2 wrote:
stuff
This is basically it. Of course, there are cases where jump maps are actually fun, like the Roses are red map, but now-a-days its just boring, or "generic," patterns with large jumps in the chorus for the PP. Players don't appreciate the map, they appreciate the large amount of pp rewarded, which then gives the mapper the blind vision of "Oh, they like my maps? Well, I'll just map more of it." At this point is where the issue pops up.Naotoshi wrote:
It's completely possible to map a generic pop song in a way that doesn't abuse sharp angles and comfortable movement and extreme rhythm simplification and low SV and giant 5 second diffspikes.
People just don't, they map it like I said, and got popular for it. So everyone else tried the same thing and now 90% of maps are the exact same formula with no uniqueness, all because the PP system rewards the maps with easy flow and rhythm and retarded high spacing in one part of the map.
B1rd wrote:
Considering that music is to a large degree a reflection of your own soul, people who listen to superficial and shameless music are likely to exhibit the same traits in their own personality.
I agree with some of your points but think you went a bit far here. I don't like most pop music either but making serious judgments on a person based on their music preference is ridiculous. It's like saying video games are for kids so if you play video games you are a man child and you should get more manly hobbies like golf and woodworking.B1rd wrote:
a lot of pop music is indisputably trash, and the people who listen to it are most likely trash as well.
This is really illogical if you think about, with today's mentality, mappers just don't give a shit if their maps are played or not, I can imagine fycho mapped haitai just like how he had map for the past few years, ranked it and forget about it, that's just my assumption of course but can you really say pp mappers expect huge positive popularity from player base when their maps are in fact pp maps.Ongaku wrote:
most mappers (Not all) will continue to map "pp maps" because people actually play it.
This is just untrue. Mappers, most mappers that is, care a lot about how popular their maps are. It doesn't really matter about the "anti-PP mentality" which exists only in a relatively vocal minority of the playerbase and mapping community - if you draw a comparison to movies, most producers care more about the performance in the box office rather than critical review. In other words, a lot of mapper don't care if their maps are deemed "unimaginative", as long as their maps are still popular. And the problem with this is that it shifts the status quo of mapping in the direction of PP mapping, and mappers who don't want to make PP maps have to fight extra hard to get their maps ranked.N0thingSpecial wrote:
This is really illogical if you think about, with today's mentality, mappers just don't give a shit if their maps are played or not, I can imagine fycho mapped haitai just like how he had map for the past few years, ranked it and forget about it, that's just my assumption of course but can you really say pp mappers expect huge positive popularity from player base when their maps are in fact pp maps.
The quotes I didn't include are objectifying the current issue here, so I don't really have anything to argue against.B1rd wrote:
This is just untrue. Mappers, most mappers that is, care a lot about how popular their maps are. It doesn't really matter about the "anti-PP mentality" which exists only in a relatively vocal minority of the playerbase and mapping community - if you draw a comparison to movies, most producers care more about the performance in the box office rather than critical review. In other words, a lot of mapper don't care if their maps are deemed "unimaginative", as long as their maps are still popular. And the problem with this is that it shifts the status quo of mapping in the direction of PP mapping, and mappers who don't want to make PP maps have to fight extra hard to get their maps ranked.
Are you seriously so intellectually lazy that you really thought that's what I meant?B1rd wrote:
Here comes social justice warrior to the rescue, to explain to us all that having mapping standards - or standards in general - are, in fact, a result of patriarchy and white nationalists!
You heard it folks, Vivaldi's Four Seasons is not actually a masterpiece, any more than Justin Bieber's Baby is masterpiece, it's all up to the eye of the beholder :^)You're right, it's not. Please attempt to prove otherwise. I would really love to watch you try to objectify the subjective and slowly come to the realization that your music is only a "masterpiece" for the exact same reasons that Baby is a masterpiece (popularity), except the people who like one or the other have different values. Go ahead, shoulder the impossible task of proving your emotions are objectively superior.
To me, technical stuff is fun when I can play it moderately well.Shiirn wrote:
hey do you think my maps are good i'm curious as to how you compare them to comfortable, easy-to-play "fun" maps tanksRailey2 wrote:
stuff
And that's exactly what I've been talking about. Why do you feel the need to frame sharp angles, diffspikes, rhythm simplification and low SV as something that is "abuse", as something that is "bad"? Sure, they became more widely used for a reason (ppv2), but does that automatically make them bad?Naotoshi wrote:
It's completely possible to map a generic pop song in a way that doesn't abuse sharp angles and comfortable movement and extreme rhythm simplification and low SV and giant 5 second diffspikes.
I disagree. The whole ranking process is a system that was set into place for a singular purpose: To deliver great content to players so that THEY can enjoy the game to it's fullest extent. If you eat up the resources of said system by taking the time of the people that work for it, your mapping should be 100% in line with the objective of the system: Creating fun for the player.N0thingSpecial wrote:
Vice versa, the players are under the impression that mappers who map for FREE, should comply to player's demand, FOR FREE is the problem here, the incentive is not there, you can make up stuff like satisfaction of social acceptance but that's a superficial reason.
So I would assume mappers take the "game developer" approach, make what they think is good, that of course includes ridiculous time wasting game like sheep similuator (fun maps), but ultimately you want to make something with quality, something well thought out (good maps), even successful rhythm games like deemo and voez does that, some players would completely disregard the thought put into both games, and still enjoy it, but it's probably safer to just assume players would take notice of all the visual and game design choices they made, enjoy it as a rhythm game, not a piano simiulator.
"Hey you! You're having fun all wrong! You should be doing it my way! My values are better than yours!"Ongaku wrote:
Thats exactly why the PP system is flawed. The "Fun" for players at the moment is earning ranks via pp. The players should appreciate the map AND the mapper for it's fun in terms of gameplay, not in terms of earning pp.
But this is negatively impacting the state of mapping.For you.
Not once did i ever say that "my values are better than yours." Don't make it sound like I say shit like that.When you say that someone should and should not like this or that, its very clearly implied that's what you think, whether you realize it or not.
"For you."Philosofikal wrote:
But this is negatively impacting the state of mapping.For you.Not once did i ever say that "my values are better than yours." Don't make it sound like I say shit like that.When you're saying that someone should and should not like this or that, its very clearly implied that's what you think, whether you realize it or not.
I'm going to keep saying that until you stop giving your opinion as fact.Ongaku wrote:
"For you."
For me? When did I become a target of this topic. You sound very personal in something that should be public. Are you also implying that the mapping community should not have a say in this?
I might have phrased it incorrectly by using "should," but regardless, my statement still stands. I'll rephrase it, "Thats exactly why the PP system is flawed. The "Fun" for players at the moment is earning ranks via pp. The players CAN appreciate the map AND the mapper for it's fun in terms of gameplay, not in terms of earning pp, but chooses not to because they find more satisfaction in earning PP."
"The purpose of mapping is to get people to play the game."Philosofikal wrote:
I'm going to keep saying that until you giving your opinion as fact.
The purpose of mapping is to get people to play the game. You know what the best maps are? The ones that get played and make people play the game. That's pretty much the closest thing objectively point to and say "hey, this is an unquestionably positive attribute". For better or worse, the primary objective of any organzizational body is to be self-sustaining.
Thats probably also one of the issues, lack of communication.Natsu wrote:
mmm tbh players have a different perspective of mapping, they really don't care much if the map fit the song properly, concepts etc. That's why I don't think a discussion about mapping between players and mappers is any good-
What is stopping mappers from making whatever they want as long as it adheres to technical guidelines? Do they believe that they have an entitlement to popularity just because they made a map? Why are they mapping just to get popular?Ongaku wrote:
"The purpose of mapping is to get people to play the game."Philosofikal wrote:
I'm going to keep saying that until you giving your opinion as fact.
The purpose of mapping is to get people to play the game. You know what the best maps are? The ones that get played and make people play the game. That's pretty much the closest thing objectively point to and say "hey, this is an unquestionably positive attribute". For better or worse, the primary objective of any organzizational body is to be self-sustaining.
Yes, but you're entirely disregarding the mapper's PoV in this situation.
"You know what the best maps are? The ones that get played and make people play the game."No, they won't, because they have different values than yours.
You know why diversity is important? because it keeps everything new and interesting. Maps that repeats the same forumla, in this case, the "abuse sharp angles and comfortable movement and extreme rhythm simplification and low SV and giant 5 second diffspikes." EventuallypeopleI will grow tired of it and the game will end up dying due to lack of "creativity."
Why do you think that I was derogatory towards you when you try to imply that people having a discussion about criticisms of PPv2 have the same underlying psychology as white supremacists? Your pathology of a social justice warrior sticks out like a sore thumb, it's laughable to think your "ideas" could be constructive in any way.Philosofikal wrote:
Are you seriously so intellectually lazy that you really thought that's what I meant?B1rd wrote:
Here comes social justice warrior to the rescue, to explain to us all that having mapping standards - or standards in general - are, in fact, a result of patriarchy and white nationalists!
My actual point is that the every piece of the underlying logic and reasoning you used to form your opinion is toxic, and that the exact same reasoning you're using very easily leads to stuff way more terrible than being an egotistical douche about art. You have the scary combination of having illusory superiority on a mostly subjective matter, and the simultaneous belief of being a threatened minority. People who think just like the way you are right now are legendary for their ability to cause problems for everyone else.You heard it folks, Vivaldi's Four Seasons is not actually a masterpiece, any more than Justin Bieber's Baby is masterpiece, it's all up to the eye of the beholder :^)You're right, it's not. Please attempt to prove otherwise. I would really love to watch you try to objectify the subjective and slowly come to the realization that your music is only a "masterpiece" for the exact same reasons that Baby is a masterpiece (popularity), except the people who like one or the other have different values. Go ahead, shoulder the impossible task of proving your emotions are objectively superior.
Oh, while I'm here, I can very easily explain why pp maps are fun. They make the objectively difficult subjectively easy.
You like maps that make the objectively easy subjectively difficult.
"Songs by Justin Bieber are just as much masterpieces as compositions by Vivaldi, because complexity is an arbitrary criteria and popularity is the only real measurement of quality"Railey2 wrote:
Anyway, I agree with Philisophikal. B1rd would probably argue that complexity means that something must be better, which is a completely arbitrary standard just like popularity or the quality of something being more purple than something else.