Railey2 wrote:

And this is where everything goes terribly wrong. Pishi seems to be under the impression that players should, in fact, see a map as more than just a platform to click circles! How did he come to that conclusion? It's the artist within him that wants people to think of maps as more than... being part of the game that is meant to be played. When the players don't do that, he forces out a distinction between fun and good, which while at times being reasonably founded, at other times also marks maps like call me it (which is technically flawless, in the sense of timing etc.) as "bad". Even though call me it is super popular and technically flawless!

Vice versa, the players are under the impression that mappers who map for FREE, should comply to player's demand, FOR FREE is the problem here, the incentive is not there, you can make up stuff like satisfaction of social acceptance but that's a superficial reason.

So I would assume mappers take the "game developer" approach, make what they think is good, that of course includes ridiculous time wasting game like sheep similuator (fun maps), but ultimately you want to make something with quality, something well thought out (good maps), even successful rhythm games like deemo and voez does that, some players would completely disregard the thought put into both games, and still enjoy it, but it's probably safer to just assume players would take notice of all the visual and game design choices they made, enjoy it as a rhythm game, not a piano simiulator.

Pishifat could get away with it cause his mentality works, for the most part

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

PP mapping it's not even enjoyable to play. Just boring patterns on 80% of maps what you could say they all was made by the same guy. Not even different music styles. Some of them are obviously copy and paste of patterns from other maps. Rotate 30° the pattern, change circles distance and timming to the music beats, move the pattern to a corner and add slidders between patterns. There you go, a PP map ratted 9/10 or 10/10 because people know the anime song and feel they are good players because they win PP playing it.
Meanwhile hard work maps like this die because they are not worth. Not easy PP = bullshitmap = delete. Instead support the mapper to make it ranked.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/502420

Go ahead and read the entire thing before replying, Railey wrote an entire thread to counter the pp = bad mapping mentality, you saying pp mapping is boring really adds nothing to the discussion

Also akali is a well respected mapper I don't know why you link his map

my comment on a cookie-butter-choco-cookie play:



so i agree with you all in all. to me, personally, many pp farm maps are really fun to play. for example i love playing hitorigoto nomod. i already ss'ed it so there's no benefit for me in playing it. i still feel like it because i just enjoy it. even though i wouldn't say i don't enjoy technical maps either. all in all it's just subjective tastes and i can see how people only like technical maps or only like 'pp-farm maps'. i just enjoy them both personally.

oh and <3 for tengaku tho

Agree almost completely with this. It's the same regardless of what gamemode you go to. CTB actively has a community of people who only want to play converts because they are more random and harder to play then the CTB specific maps which are considered "free PP"

Taiko has this community that bashes maps that use 1/6 saying it's intentionally trying to inflate SR for PP

Mania has this community that thinks that ranked maps should include more SV's so stuff isn't sightreadable

We need to get rid of the mindset that pp maps are ruining this game for sure and the only people who play them are farmers, which is somehow a bad thing.
Miraizu is probably my favourite map because it's just fun with a lovely song.

But this thing is deeply rooted in the active community, from top players to rank 15k rlc and skystar fanboys with of course pp maps as their top plays.
Very convenient that most of their scores are on unranked maps.
They whole-heartedly believe that a map having ranked status somemehow affects it's quality for the worse.
I know im generalizing im sorry but it's kinda triggering.

All-in-all I'm pretty sure this is just elitism:

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

PP mapping it's not even enjoyable to play. Just boring patterns on 80% of maps what you could say they all was made by the same guy. Not even different music styles. Some of them are obviously copy and paste of patterns from other maps. Rotate 30° the patt....blablablablablabla

Looks like a copy pasta meme to me tbh.
It's kinda sad to see that it plagued into even low 5 digits.

But elitists are in every community, don't think we can do anything about it.

Two words I can use to explain todays mapping.

CIRCLE JERKING

Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?

Let's go over some statements and pick apart your ill-reasoned arguments:

fun =/= good

If that's not the case, then does that mean that Justin Bieber's Baby is superior to Vivaldi's Four Seasons? Obviously not, and obviously intrinsic quality and value is not derived solely from how "popular" or "fun" it is.

ppv2 is does create bad incentives that detracts from the quality of mapping

You use Toumei Elegy as the foundation of your argument, not even taking into consideration it hasn't been #1 for a long time and the fact that it's a decent farm map. We could get in to a big discussion about what determines the "fun factor", but it's a moot point, the current #1 that has been in the top spot for a long time is a PP map, Hitorigo, and so are the large majority of all top-played maps. Maps that are extremely popular that aren't really good PP maps are the exception, not the rule.

It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line? You can't. You have to admit that the arbitrary criteria of PPV2 creates an incentive to create maps of inferior quality.
It is analogous to pop music vs classical: the pop song of the week may be more popular amongst the masses compared to classical music, however the classical compositions will always be regarded as great masterpieces throughout time and people who take the time to enjoy them can find great beauty and majesty. Compared to pop songs, which even those who listen to them will soon forget the ones they were listening to a month ago and move on to something else.
So the PPv2 definitely influence maps in a negative way.


Now that that's cleared up, you might ask the question, "why does it matter if maps are all PP maps, as long as people enjoy the game"? Well it might be all fine and good for you, a self-admitted PP farmed who takes pleasure primarily from getting more PP. But for those of us who actually are interested in map quality, playing ar8 or niche maps, maps that have fun and unique jump patterns or really any quality that makes them not suitable for PP farming have a hard time. Not only because mappers barely make those sorts of maps any more, but because it creates an environment that's hard to deviate from the norm and actually make maps to satisfy niche audiences.

And so, it's not our or mappers' problem for having preferences that deviate from the majority playerbase of PP farmers, the problem is you failing to address a real problem that is inhibiting mapping in osu!.

Yolshka wrote:

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

PP mapping it's not even enjoyable to play. Just boring patterns on 80% of maps what you could say they all was made by the same guy. Not even different music styles. Some of them are obviously copy and paste of patterns from other maps. Rotate 30° the patt....blablablablablabla

Looks like a copy pasta meme to me tbh.
It's kinda sad to see that it plagued into even low 5 digits.

But elitists are in every community, don't think we can do anything about it.

Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.

B1rd, I have to thank you. I was worried that people would accuse me of strawmanning, but you blew all of these concerns out of the water.

You heard it here first: If you like pp-jumps you are one of these mindless pop-music consuming sheep, and if you like anything else you are a sophisticated gentleman that listens to Vivaldi's Four Seasons.

"Maybe it's elitism", he says. Well, I think I've got bad news for you... What do we call people again that are proud to listen to classical and think of everyone else as lower?



It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line?

You know what else came from a figurative factory line?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... io_Vivaldi

mind = blown

Now that we've gone full circle, may I just point out that this ppv2 mapping formula is very popular with many people, not for the pp it gives but for how it plays?
Why exactly does them using a formula mean that the output will be "bad"? It's simple to read, simple to play, abides by all technical standards.. so what's the problem?
Read Yolshka's response, for example. Do you really wish to shit all over people like him, calling them plebs and whatnot? I certainly wouldn't shit over technical maps, hell I even like technical maps myself. I'm a big fan! I've been playing more unranked than ranked when I was still actively playing.

Yes, pp-maps are at the top of most played. But not just because they are "farmy". They are also FUN. To many many people. That's kind of the point of this thread: I dislike it when people completely devalue a meta without second thought.

Also

B1rd wrote:

Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?

holy shit my dude, if it wasn't for the lovely sig I have, this would be my new sig right now.

In my opinion, the entire attack against pp maps and the people who like them is driven almost entirely by the misdirected self-hatred of insecure elitists who, in the failure to meet their expectations of themselves, need to take down others who they view as not having "earned their place". The exact same bullshit mentality is what drives people to become incels and white nationalists (see image).

Nobody gets to objectively define what is fun or good, and if you think you do, you have a bad case of USI. Art is inherently subjective, no art has intrinsic value.

Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.

Just to add, i don't care what you do about pp. But it's no sense there are masterpieces of mapping with 40 favourites and maps what with 89467896y06y45896 favourites becuause they rated the song and not the map itself. Nothing more to say.

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Just to add, i don't care what you do about pp. But it's no sense there are masterpieces of mapping with 40 favourites and maps what with 89467896y06y45896 favourites becuause they rated the song and not the map itself. Nothing more to say.

Masterpieces to who? You? The moment where something goes from "I really like this" to "this is objectively good and only an idiot can't see its value" is the moment where you've taken a wrong turn straight up your own ass.

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Just to add, i don't care what you do about pp. But it's no sense there are masterpieces of mapping with 40 favourites and maps what with 89467896y06y45896 favourites becuause they rated the song and not the map itself. Nothing more to say.

look up the implications of subjectivity and come back

B1rd wrote:

It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line? You can't. You have to admit that the arbitrary criteria of PPV2 creates an incentive to create maps of inferior quality.

This argument has been presented countless times but do you honestly think there's better way to represent a typical pop song using very predictable rhythm, melody and structure, like how creative can you get with a TV size anime song? is the inferior quality coming from the lack of complexity from the music or is the inferior quality coming from comparing to relatively similar songs with similar maps? And ultimately can the arbitrary criteria of PPv2 contribute to lost of quality if spacing flow and aesthetics quality are good enough for TV size anime maps?

TBH this entire argument on whether or not PP maps are good/fun is kind of dumb. People act like PP system is only flawed system and previous systems were perfect.

If score ranking were to return you'd see an influx of really long maps as more combo = more score

If map ranking were to return you'd see the same maps as you do now but people would be most incentivized to play popular maps and beat a ton of other players to gain rank on stuff that is easy. If you can place #1 on a hard/insane you'd get more ranks than getting #1 on an extra as more people play those difficulties.

If they were to change the PP formula to make technical slider maps give tons of PP I am sure people would start playing those.

Now the almost hipster thing going around is that peppy should remove the ranking system (which btw he won't as so many people would stop playing without the rank incentive)

So really ever being able to know what maps people would play (i.e. Fun/good maps) if everything was perfectly balanced is hard to say. So you can't use map popularity to determine if a map is good as many people will chase rank increases. That being said, I doubt even if PP/rankings were removed that things like hitorigoto or no title would suddenly stop being played.

I currently have too many good maps and I am unable to play them all.

Plus so many good maps are coming out every day.

The state of mapping is excellent.

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

Two words I can use to explain todays mapping.

CIRCLE JERKING

now let me expand of my point...

this entire thread has made my day, i needed this, thanks guys

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

Two words I can use to explain todays mapping.

CIRCLE JERKING

now let me expand of my point...

you realize this took months of planning right? two of these were ready since two months ago, i was intentionally waiting for the opportunity to get four of these qualified because of the artist name (four for fourfolium lol)

besides, one of these isn't even really considered "conventional pp mapping"

It's completely possible to map a generic pop song in a way that doesn't abuse sharp angles and comfortable movement and extreme rhythm simplification and low SV and giant 5 second diffspikes.

People just don't, they map it like I said, and got popular for it. So everyone else tried the same thing and now 90% of maps are the exact same formula with no uniqueness, all because the PP system rewards the maps with easy flow and rhythm and retarded high spacing in one part of the map.

I believe Railey has mastered the art of triggering people.

Of course pp is affecting the mapping style, you're just trying to be unique and special haha, if you're mapping just because your map will give a lot of pp and people are going to like it for that, then the mapping style gets ruined, and I hope you understand, people are going to like and enjoy the map, but not because of the map itself but the pp. On the other hand, I don't agree with the guy that says fun=/=good, that's just stupid, a good map needs to be fun.

B1oody wrote:

I believe Railey has mastered the art of triggering people.

Railey threads are always interesting at least.
But B1rd is a cutie, and since B1rd has posted on gnr I don't even care about pp maps anymore.

what the shit is this thread lmao

Mun wrote:

what the shit is this thread lmao

If you weren't lazy, then you'd know.

Railey2 wrote:

B1rd, I have to thank you. I was worried that people would accuse me of strawmanning, but you blew all of these concerns out of the water.

You heard it here first: If you like pp-jumps you are one of these mindless pop-music consuming sheep, and if you like anything else you are a sophisticated gentleman that listens to Vivaldi's Four Seasons.

"Maybe it's elitism", he says. Well, I think I've got bad news for you... What do we call people again that are proud to listen to classical and think of everyone else as lower?



It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line?

You know what else came from a figurative factory line?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... io_Vivaldi

mind = blown

Now that we've gone full circle, may I just point out that this ppv2 mapping formula is very popular with many people, not for the pp it gives but for how it plays?
Why exactly does them using a formula mean that the output will be "bad"? It's simple to read, simple to play, abides by all technical standards.. so what's the problem?
Read Yolshka's response, for example. Do you really wish to shit all over people like him, calling them plebs and whatnot? I certainly wouldn't shit over technical maps, hell I even like technical maps myself. I'm a big fan! I've been playing more unranked than ranked when I was still actively playing.

Yes, pp-maps are at the top of most played. But not just because they are "farmy". They are also FUN. To many many people. That's kind of the point of this thread: I dislike it when people completely devalue a meta without second thought.

Also

B1rd wrote:

Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?

holy shit my dude, if it wasn't for the lovely sig I have, this would be my new sig right now.

Your claim that farm maps have a "fun factor" that is separate from the PP they give is completely unfounded. The proposition that the maps that are most fun to play also coincide perfectly with the farmiest maps is ridiculous. It's obvious that if you use a strict arbitrary formula to create "art", it won't be good, because the virtues of creative endeavors are, among other things, that they are the product of creative effort, they are expressive and unique. Farm maps are "fun" because people find getting PP is fun, it's not because of any intrinsic value of the maps, their popularity is based solely on the fact that they fulfill the practical function of giving people PP.

You don't have any logical basis for your arguments, they seem to stem entirely from a feeling of disgruntlement over the proposition that your beloved plebs aren't always the most enlightened and discerning in whatever behaviour they choose to partake in. I've already explained why PPv2 is a bad influence on mapping - because there are actually people like me and others who don't like farm maps or care about farming PP, but are actually interested in good maps. We are the ones who suffer as a result.

And no, Vivaldi's compositions did not come from any figurative factory line, because there are more elements to factory-produced items than merely the amount produced, they are also uniform and take no creative effort to create. Exactly like farm maps. And for your information, I don't deride every single music genre, but a lot of pop music is indisputably trash, and the people who listen to it are most likely trash as well. Considering that music is to a large degree a reflection of your own soul, people who listen to superficial and shameless music are likely to exhibit the same traits in their own personality.

Philosofikal wrote:

In my opinion, the entire attack against pp maps and the people who like them is driven almost entirely by the misdirected self-hatred of insecure elitists who, in the failure to meet their expectations of themselves, need to take down others who they view as not having "earned their place". The exact same bullshit mentality is what drives people to become incels and white nationalists (see image).

Nobody gets to objectively define what is fun or good, and if you think you do, you have a bad case of USI. Art is inherently subjective, no art has intrinsic value.

Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.

Here comes social justice warrior to the rescue, to explain to us all that having mapping standards - or standards in general - are, in fact, a result of patriarchy and white nationalists!

Philosofikal wrote:

Masterpieces to who? You? The moment where something goes from "I really like this" to "this is objectively good and only an idiot can't see its value" is the moment where you've taken a wrong turn straight up your own ass.

You heard it folks, Vivaldi's Four Seasons is not actually a masterpiece, any more than Justin Bieber's Baby is masterpiece, it's all up to the eye of the beholder :^)

N0thingSpecial wrote:

This argument has been presented countless times but do you honestly think there's better way to represent a typical pop song using very predictable rhythm, melody and structure, like how creative can you get with a TV size anime song? is the inferior quality coming from the lack of complexity from the music or is the inferior quality coming from comparing to relatively similar songs with similar maps? And ultimately can the arbitrary criteria of PPv2 contribute to lost of quality if spacing flow and aesthetics quality are good enough for TV size anime maps?

This p/6252521

I do believe that TV size anime maps could be a lot better. However I don't expect masterpieces to be created from generic songs, and I think there is a place in mapping for easy-to-play generic songs and maps. My problem doesn't come from the mere existence of a few farm-style or generic maps, but from PPv2's dominant and constricting influence over mapping in general.

I'd say Railey makes some very valid points here, particularly in that there isn't anything wrong with creating maps deemed to be "generic."

That being said, I do take issue with his whole diatribe regarding "fun" and "good." I'm not a mapper myself, but I can certainly see the point pishi was trying to make here - it cheapens the definition of the word "good" if you blindly ascribe it to anything that's enjoyable. A work of art - be it music, anime, or osu beatmaps - that is more complex, more accurate, more innovative, or more thought-provoking is always better from an objective perspective than something that's simply enjoyed by the plebeian masses, even if it doesn't make it wrong to enjoy simpler projects.

Now, I do get annoyed at the vocal minority of people who claim "mapping is dead!" or the sort; I think there are plenty of newer maps, ranked or otherwise, that are innovative and enjoyable in ways different from jumps and simple patterns. I find it to be a rather unnecessary and ill-informed comment.

Something can be enjoyable without being, objectively, good - and that's perfectly fine.

Philosofikal wrote:

In my opinion, the entire attack against pp maps and the people who like them is driven almost entirely by the misdirected self-hatred of insecure elitists who, in the failure to meet their expectations of themselves, need to take down others who they view as not having "earned their place". The exact same bullshit mentality is what drives people to become incels and white nationalists (see image).

Nobody gets to objectively define what is fun or good, and if you think you do, you have a bad case of USI. Art is inherently subjective, no art has intrinsic value.

Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.

What the hell did I just read, srsly.

"It's obvious that if you use a strict arbitrary formula to create "art", it won't be good, because the virtues of creative endeavors are, among other things, that they are the product of creative effort, they are expressive and unique."
You're saying that following the pp-mapping formula leaves mappers almost no creative freedom? That's simply wrong. If that was true, farm maps would be way more similar to one another than they really are.
Talking about strict formulas.. Did you know that this set form was one of the greatest selling points of classical music? And people loved it! Only because you have some rules/a general framework, doesn't mean that creative freedom is dead.

B1rd wrote:

Your claim that farm maps have a "fun factor" that is separate from the PP they give is completely unfounded.

One sentence in and it's already bullshit.

Did you just choose to ignore my Red like roses and Highscore examples? N0thingSpecial made another example with Ame to Asphalt.

But it's unfounded, sure. Why do I even argue with People like you? Don't post here again, you're obviously just trying to spin this the way you want. I won't entertain you any further.


"but a lot of pop music is indisputably trash, and the people who listen to it are most likely trash as well."
holy shit my dude. You really are an asshole.

"Considering that music is to a large degree a reflection of your own soul, people who listen to superficial and shameless music are likely to exhibit the same traits in their own personality."
you know for with most other people I'd just say that this is trolling and move on, but you've really done a great job at being consistently crazy over the years. I've seen many hilariously stupid things, but this is something else.

Mun wrote:

what the shit is this thread lmao

Lmao ikr

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Mun wrote:

what the shit is this thread lmao

Lmao ikr

ikr

Railey2 wrote:

"It's obvious that if you use a strict arbitrary formula to create "art", it won't be good, because the virtues of creative endeavors are, among other things, that they are the product of creative effort, they are expressive and unique."
You're saying that following the pp-mapping formula leaves mappers almost no creative freedom? That's simply wrong. If that was true, farm maps would be way more similar to one another than they really are.
Talking about strict formulas.. Did you know that this set form was one of the greatest selling points of classical music? And people loved it! Only because you have some rules/a general framework, doesn't mean that creative freedom is dead.

B1rd wrote:

Your claim that farm maps have a "fun factor" that is separate from the PP they give is completely unfounded.

One sentence in and it's already bullshit.

Did you just choose to ignore my Red like roses and Highscore examples? N0thingSpecial made another example with Ame to Asphalt.

But it's unfounded, sure. Why do I even argue with People like you? Don't post here again, you're obviously just trying to spin this the way you want. I won't entertain you any further.


"but a lot of pop music is indisputably trash, and the people who listen to it are most likely trash as well."
holy shit my dude. You really are an asshole.

"Considering that music is to a large degree a reflection of your own soul, people who listen to superficial and shameless music are likely to exhibit the same traits in their own personality."
you know for with most other people I'd just say that this is trolling and move on, but you've really done a great job at being consistently crazy over the years. I've seen many hilariously stupid things, but this is something else.

Any so your rant ends on the inevitable and predictable note of accusing people who have a different opinion than you of being "assholes" and being "crazy". It really is a testament to how much of a small man you are, you can't even conclude an argument without trying to invalidate the other's argument with a slew of ad hominems. Pretty much everyone else in this thread can be mature and reasonable, why can't you?

I may have misworded my opening sentence, it's not that PP maps aren't fun at all, what I meant is that, unlike what you have been saying, there is no evidence that their popularity is not based to a very large degree on the fact that they are farm maps. you've made a lot of fault assumptions in your argument. You assume that jump maps = farm maps when that evidently isn't the case. Atama No Taisou is jump map. Red Like Roses wouldn't be a farm map if it were ranked, it is very different to farm maps. When was the last time you have seen patterns like this in farm maps? Back when Airman and Senketsu no Chikai were farm maps? I adore structured jump sequences, but that's not what we get in today's maps, because jumps like those actually take real skill to complete, unlike the generic fullscreen jumps you see today. The only reason Ame to Asphalt is a farm map is because - due to the music allowing it - all of the jumps are at the end and you can still get a lot of PP if you miss. And I don't know why you ignored it but I already addressed Highscore - it isn't even that good of a farm map. Your argument is fallacious because your examples of maps that are supposedly PP maps while also being good quality aren't even archetypical farm maps. Real farm maps are maps like Hitorigoto, which hardly anyone plays if they aren't trying to farm PP. Sometimes good maps and farm maps coincide, but it's more of a coincidence that anything

Your other error is making arguments about what people intrinsically find fun without accounting for the variable of players' preferences that have been shaped by their past experiences of playing in a system shaped by the PPv2 meta.

Well I've spent a few hours on techincal maps and old maps here and there, i really like them, but my opinion on Miraizu is the same.
That map is as farmy as it gets, but I wound't say that the ppv2 system has brainwashed me.

But it's okay B1rd we love you even if you're an elitist.

For the record, I'm definitely a stupid little pleb , that's for sure.

Railey2 wrote:

stuff

hey do you think my maps are good i'm curious as to how you compare them to comfortable, easy-to-play "fun" maps tanks

Regarding B1rd's argument and nao's argument, I have to actually agree.

Naotoshi wrote:

It's completely possible to map a generic pop song in a way that doesn't abuse sharp angles and comfortable movement and extreme rhythm simplification and low SV and giant 5 second diffspikes.

People just don't, they map it like I said, and got popular for it. So everyone else tried the same thing and now 90% of maps are the exact same formula with no uniqueness, all because the PP system rewards the maps with easy flow and rhythm and retarded high spacing in one part of the map.

This is basically it. Of course, there are cases where jump maps are actually fun, like the Roses are red map, but now-a-days its just boring, or "generic," patterns with large jumps in the chorus for the PP. Players don't appreciate the map, they appreciate the large amount of pp rewarded, which then gives the mapper the blind vision of "Oh, they like my maps? Well, I'll just map more of it." At this point is where the issue pops up.

"When exactly did we decide that this is a bad thing"

When it began affecting the diversity of mapping.

"Some people seem to share the delusion that the biggest reason why the meta shifted towards simple jumpy patterns is that pp gave people the "wrong" incentives. What even is a "wrong incentive?""

The "wrong incentive" is the large amount of PP given to players. Players like the pp rewarded, so they continue to play the map until they get the largest amount of PP possible in that said map. As long as they're getting recognition, most mappers (Not all) will continue to map "pp maps" because people actually play it. Of course, other mappers will follow, just to get recognition for their maps, or just for the "memes." Now, the bad side isn't the players or the mappers, but the PP. It is what drives the players to play the map, in turn the mapper wants to map what players want to play. Its just one large continuous loop, hence the continued phrase of "pp is ruining mapping."

A good example of this is the infamous hai tai map. A lot of negative comments, Not only mappers but players too. The map is honestly just terrible, so how did it end up in top 5 most played maps within 24 hours for a long period of time? Because the pp rewarded drives the players to play the map constantly, just to get that PP. And when other mappers see that other mapper's creation are getting attention, they'll want to follow that too. Why do you think theres an issue in the diversity of mapping.

"People actually seek out simple jumpy maps even when they are removed from pp."

So, what about the maps that have the "exact same formula?" The ones that have no uniqueness, boring. Will people come back to those too? You can best assume that players have no drive (being pp) to play the maps and just forget about it. You're misunderstanding jump maps for "generic pp maps."

"pp was never the problem, the problem is you. You don't care enough about what people enjoy."

That IS the issue, players care about pp, which is why mappers CONTINUED to map "generic pp maps."

Deny it as much as you want, it all comes down to the issue with PPv2.

B1rd wrote:

Considering that music is to a large degree a reflection of your own soul, people who listen to superficial and shameless music are likely to exhibit the same traits in their own personality.

B1rd wrote:

a lot of pop music is indisputably trash, and the people who listen to it are most likely trash as well.

I agree with some of your points but think you went a bit far here. I don't like most pop music either but making serious judgments on a person based on their music preference is ridiculous. It's like saying video games are for kids so if you play video games you are a man child and you should get more manly hobbies like golf and woodworking.

Its fine to judge a person based off of their music tastes but calling them "trash" i.e less than human, is a bit much.

I don't care to PC up my language. Obviously not all pop music is the same, but if someone listens so songs whose lyrics basically amount to "SEX, SEX, HAVE PROMISCUOUS SEX" - of which many definitely exist - then "trash" would be my initial impression of that person. Likewise, "manchild" would likely be an accurate description for a man who spends all his time playing video games well past his 30s.

I always wonder, if there's so much backlash on pp mapping from both the players and the mapping community why hasn't it stopped? Is the mapping community a whole bunch of edgy masochist who just likes being infamous for pp mapping (which I don't blame you for thinking that cause monstrata exist).

Rather than thinking ppv2 gave bad incentive, did we even give incentive to be innovative? I personally feel the mapping scene has devolved into experienced mappers bashing new comers who is still trying out different mapping concept, who's maps are obviously 99% unimaginative bullshit. Jump map's standards has pretty much stayed the same for the past 2-3 years, and you smack them with maps from 2017 rrtyui of course you would think modern pp maps are unimaginative. The gap in variety between "unimaginative" jump maps and unconventional maps is just getting larger, think if dark flight dreamer and bakunana testroyer was ranked today, would it still get the popularity it gets back when pp map bashing wasn't so prominent, in fact I'm willing to bet if you take cbcc back 3 years ago it wouldn't get as much hate as today.

So I have a hypothesis, is ppv2 really the whole reason maps are unimaginative today, or is it our standards are just higher than ever?

Ongaku wrote:

most mappers (Not all) will continue to map "pp maps" because people actually play it.

This is really illogical if you think about, with today's mentality, mappers just don't give a shit if their maps are played or not, I can imagine fycho mapped haitai just like how he had map for the past few years, ranked it and forget about it, that's just my assumption of course but can you really say pp mappers expect huge positive popularity from player base when their maps are in fact pp maps.

hence the "(not all)" part. I didnt want to shove all mappers into one group. Of course there are mappers with different mentality, but the issue still stands. Why else would they map "pp maps?" Players are always looking to improve. As long as they gain ranks via pp, they'll continue to play "pp maps."

Of course, our standards today are pretty questionable, since we have various opinions on how the state of mapping is today. You may be right that there are no incentive for innovation, but is the incentive more important for the mapper or player?

It could also be the fact that "creative" maps are too controversial, not encouraged. New concepts being denied by the mapping community while maybe the player base support it. Of course, theres a fine line between creative and unrankable maps, thats what the RC is for.

Maybe the Incentive for players are larger than the mappers incentive (if it even exists).

N0thingSpecial wrote:

This is really illogical if you think about, with today's mentality, mappers just don't give a shit if their maps are played or not, I can imagine fycho mapped haitai just like how he had map for the past few years, ranked it and forget about it, that's just my assumption of course but can you really say pp mappers expect huge positive popularity from player base when their maps are in fact pp maps.

This is just untrue. Mappers, most mappers that is, care a lot about how popular their maps are. It doesn't really matter about the "anti-PP mentality" which exists only in a relatively vocal minority of the playerbase and mapping community - if you draw a comparison to movies, most producers care more about the performance in the box office rather than critical review. In other words, a lot of mapper don't care if their maps are deemed "unimaginative", as long as their maps are still popular. And the problem with this is that it shifts the status quo of mapping in the direction of PP mapping, and mappers who don't want to make PP maps have to fight extra hard to get their maps ranked.

There is really no need to complicate the issue. The fact is, PPv2 creates a demand for a certain type of map - an unimaginative, dull PP map - and mappers cater to that demand. Think about before PPv2 was implemented: the top players didn't compete over PP maps, they competed over a large variety of maps that had interesting characteristics that lent themselves to competition. Maps like Atama no Taisou, Red Goose, Freedom Dive, Airman, et cetera. In other words, pre-PPv2, people chose the popular maps, but now, PPv2 chooses the popular maps. Not that the former system was perfect - instead of creating an incentive for PP, that system created an incentive for score.

Honestly, I think the game and mapping would be a lot better without all the systems that measure skill in an arbitrary way. It's just impossible to create a system that perfectly measures the difficulty of maps and patterns withing those maps. And so subsequently, any system that uses an algorithm to measure skill will always prioritise some elements over others, and the elements of mapping that aren't favoured will be left in the dust. I'd rather we just dispense with all these systems and let people choose what maps they want to play.

To provide an account of my own personal experience, I really low old low-AR mapping. The problem is, today's meta doesn't think that low-AR reading is a valuable skill. And so if a mapper tries to create a low AR map, they will likely get told in one way or another that they need to increase the AR or the map won't be ranked, because PPv2 doesn't reward low AR and so barely anyone plays it, and so people are biased against it. Remember this map? t/257876

This is from a taiko players perspective but I imagine other modes would be in a similiar state.

I don't think pp has an healthy effect on mapping, it makes people inclined to use specific patterns/map a specific way to help keep their maps relevant. I don't think this is a good thing cause it simply makes maps less unique and interesting, it hampers innovation and makes a lot of maps look uninspired.

If you don't think this is bad...I mean, I guess you're free to enjoy this state of mapping and pp mapping style, but it sure has an impact on maps which creates less variety, which I think is just not a good thing.

short and sweet.

B1rd wrote:

This is just untrue. Mappers, most mappers that is, care a lot about how popular their maps are. It doesn't really matter about the "anti-PP mentality" which exists only in a relatively vocal minority of the playerbase and mapping community - if you draw a comparison to movies, most producers care more about the performance in the box office rather than critical review. In other words, a lot of mapper don't care if their maps are deemed "unimaginative", as long as their maps are still popular. And the problem with this is that it shifts the status quo of mapping in the direction of PP mapping, and mappers who don't want to make PP maps have to fight extra hard to get their maps ranked.

The quotes I didn't include are objectifying the current issue here, so I don't really have anything to argue against.

This quote though, you still have to realise movie is entirely different from mapping cause of what's at stake, people's livelihood are dependent on the popularity of their creation, not mapping though, hence why I said there's no incentive to change the status quo. Even the modding environment encourage not listening to other's opinions if you can make a good enough justification. Mappers rank their maps cause they think they're good, popularity is a complete after thought.

Have you ever heard a new mapper that was so persistent in ranking their first map say "I want to get my map ranked cause I want the entire playe base to enjoy it", I didn't, most of the time their reasons are "I want to rank this map cause I think the map is good enough for rank"