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posted

pieguy1372 wrote:

Perhaps it could be so that your HP drain goes down a lot faster if you don't hold the slider (but only with tick rate 0), so it would be like missing
How is this different from silenced ticks? (Which I approve of)

pieguy1372 wrote:

For me at least it's easier to hold a 2/1 slider than to hit twice.
Now that depends on the shape. Consider this:

With tick 0.5, you can just casually move your cursor from one cap to the other rather than going in a circle. What's the point of using a slider like this on a tick 0.5 map?

pieguy1372 wrote:

so what, you're saying that having a tick is never out of place, ever? There are many cases where tick rate 1 is indeed disruptive and/or puts a tick where one doesn't fit... You just can't say that in all 100% of cases, tick rate 1 will work.
Yes I can. Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_%28music%29
If the music has a beat, it makes sense for a tick to land on it.

pieguy1372 wrote:

Take away the "seldom" category and it's 27%, and I think especially after the next point we can agree that those cases are when speed changes aren't used right...
The seldom category is important because it's representative of what actually makes sense. I would place myself in the seldom category. In a perfect world, ticks are read seldomly because the map offers enough other cues to make them irrelevant.

pieguy1372 wrote:

the modding system should catch these cases so they don't exist, then. I agree that people should never need to use ticks to read speed changes though.
This is exactly why I wrote those 3 rules limiting how speed changes can be used. I wrote them before tick 0.5 was banned in the hopes of targeting specifically unreadable sliders, which appear very frequently in tick 0.5 maps for some reason.

So tick rate 2 was added for that purpose also, and look how widespread it is now. If we remove tick rate 0.5 purely because it's a workaround that is now obsolete, we might as well do the same for tick rate 2. Tick rate 2 might be used a lot, but I claim that 0.5 also has uses, and thus isn't "just" a workaround.
No it wasn't. Tick rate 2 was added based on how sliders are used in Ouendan, which is the reference for this game's design. In Ouendan, ticks are timed according to the fastest consistent rhythm found in the music--that is, the highest possible setting which doesn't clash. This provides the most accurate judgement of sliders and carries the rhythm.

Alace wrote:

can you read my post by few months ago in the tick rate thread XD
Do you really want me to go through that post and find reasons for every map why tick 0.5 is incorrect? That would take hours.
Normally, it breaks down to one of a few reasons:
1. The mapper doesn't like the tick sound. Find a different one or make them silent. If you hate the sound in any map, you probably don't like this part of the Ouendan formula. Consider using a custom skin.
2. The mapper doesn't like the tick sound for this music. Same solution.
3. The music has lots of offbeats and syncopation. If this is the case, tick 2 is probably a better choice. If tick 2 clashes with the rhythms, try placing sliders more carefully, or otherwise learn to accept syncoticks. They're not so bad and can sound cute.
4. The map has some very long sliders which begin on offbeats. This tends to flow poorly anyway. Try beginning the slider on the following downbeat and placing a circle on that offbeat.

yongtw123 wrote:

etna sliders
Etna sliders are identical whether the tick rate is 0.5, 1, or 2. Lowering the tick rate because most of your sliders are 1/2 anyway is a bad reason, and only adds inconsistency when a >1/2 or >1/1 slider does appear.

Having 1/1 sliders without ticks can disrupt the flow in an otherwise 1/2 heavy map.
posted
So are we allowed to add blank wav files to silence ticks?
posted
I support it, but more opinions are needed. I will start a thread for this.

Edit: Forget the thread. The current draft of NewRules already allows this.
The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent, but only do it if it makes sense. Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together.
posted
Nice, then I have no objections.
posted
Enphasis on "make sense" for isntance i once was making a mapset in which i required the use of 3/4 triplets, since the music holds and enphasizes those 3/4 triplets a slider would work out nicely, however, since for the most part the most constant instrument was going at 1/2 rythm i was using slider tick rate 2, and the 3/4 sliders had a repeat for the triplet, so it would create a tick very close to the repeat as soon as it reached 1/2, to counter this i silenced ONLY those ticks on those sliders so it wouldn't sound awkward.

So yes i do agree with silencing sliderticks as long as they make sense with the song, if they indeed do clash with the way the slider in question is mapped.
posted
3/4 sliders usually sound okay with tick 2, seeing as the ticks all line up to the 1/2 beat, just as if it were a 3/2 slider.
2/3 sliders are where this comes in handy.
posted

mm201 wrote:

3/4 sliders usually sound okay with tick 2, seeing as the ticks all line up to the 1/2 beat, just as if it were a 3/2 slider.
2/3 sliders are where this comes in handy.
Sounds like whenever these particular rhythms are encountered in the future there is always a formula for mapping them.
posted
How is this different from silenced ticks? (Which I approve of)
I thought silenced ticks were unrankable...

Yes I can. Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_%28music%29
If the music has a beat, it makes sense for a tick to land on it.
>.< Not really, what if there's no emphasis on a certain "beat", but you still need a hold feeling? In that case a tick would be way out of place.

The seldom category is important because it's representative of what actually makes sense. I would place myself in the seldom category. In a perfect world, ticks are read seldomly because the map offers enough other cues to make them irrelevant.
No, in a perfect world, every speed change is read with no regard to ticks because the speed change fits the song well, so ticks would never need to be used.

This is exactly why I wrote those 3 rules limiting how speed changes can be used. I wrote them before tick 0.5 was banned in the hopes of targeting specifically unreadable sliders, which appear very frequently in tick 0.5 maps for some reason.
The problem with your rules is that they were way too strict and prevented too much, especially cases where the only cues were the feeling of the song and map (which is what speed changes should always fit, IMO at least). It seems you and others on staff consider those cases "unreadable", when actually they are very readable and play really well.

No it wasn't. Tick rate 2 was added based on how sliders are used in Ouendan, which is the reference for this game's design. In Ouendan, ticks are timed according to the fastest consistent rhythm found in the music--that is, the highest possible setting which doesn't clash. This provides the most accurate judgement of sliders and carries the rhythm.
Oh. Now that you mention it, I claim that some songs do not even carry a 1/1 rhythm at some points, hence why tick rate 0.5 would work in those parts even by your definition. Saying that a song has something at every 1/1 tick, or 1/2 tick, is a very strong statement to make.

3. The music has lots of offbeats and syncopation. If this is the case, tick 2 is probably a better choice. If tick 2 clashes with the rhythms, try placing sliders more carefully, or otherwise learn to accept syncoticks. They're not so bad and can sound cute.
If a tick clashes with the rhythm, it shouldn't be there. Also, the last sentence is the opposite of your 1 and 2, or someone liking the tick sound, so shouldn't that be banned under your reasoning?

4. The map has some very long sliders which begin on offbeats. This tends to flow poorly anyway. Try beginning the slider on the following downbeat and placing a circle on that offbeat.
What if the song has that rhythm? I have a map myself where this is the case and tick rate 0.5 sounded better than anything.
posted

pieguy1372 wrote:

>.< Not really, what if there's no emphasis on a certain "beat", but you still need a hold feeling? In that case a tick would be way out of place.
That means there's no rhythm, so that moment is unmappable. Consider using a spinner, a break, or just a pause with the object placement.

pieguy1372 wrote:

No, in a perfect world, every speed change is read with no regard to ticks because the speed change fits the song well, so ticks would never need to be used.
That's basically what I said, only I'm more open to the possibility of patterns which aren't necessarily readable given the music, but still make sense in retrospect. These situations depend on tick reading or memorization, but shouldn't necessarily be outright banned.

pieguy1372 wrote:

The problem with your rules is that they were way too strict and prevented too much, especially cases where the only cues were the feeling of the song and map (which is what speed changes should always fit, IMO at least). It seems you and others on staff consider those cases "unreadable", when actually they are very readable and play really well.
If you'll read them carefully, they don't really ban much of anything. One of the options is if it follows a change in the musical texture, which includes everything of what you said.

pieguy1372 wrote:

Oh. Now that you mention it, I claim that some songs do not even carry a 1/1 rhythm at some points, hence why tick rate 0.5 would work in those parts even by your definition. Saying that a song has something at every 1/1 tick, or 1/2 tick, is a very strong statement to make.
Stating a song has a steady 1/2 rhythm is a bold statement to make. Some songs divide into thirds, others don't divide at all. Stating that a song has a steady 1/1 rhythm is a basic concept of music theory. If your song doesn't have a 1/1 rhythm to it, but only a 2/1 rhythm (which corresponds to tick 0.5) then your BPM is double what it should be. Divide your BPM by two, double your slider speed, and enjoy your "tick 0.5" that way.

pieguy1372 wrote:

If a tick clashes with the rhythm, it shouldn't be there. Also, the last sentence is the opposite of your 1 and 2, or someone liking the tick sound, so shouldn't that be banned under your reasoning?
Most if not all songs have exceptions. What matters is that the 1/2 rhythm is stable.

Edit: I think you misunderstood. Allow me to rephrase that one:
If tick 2 clashes, so you opt for tick 1, you may experience "syncoticks" on sliders that begin on 1/2s. This is usually a sign that tick 2 is correct, but if it isn't, try to place objects more carefully. Tick 0.5 has syncoticks too! It even has them with sliders beginning on 1/1 offbeats, which almost always sounds awful. See my screenshot below.

pieguy1372 wrote:

What if the song has that rhythm? I have a map myself where this is the case and tick rate 0.5 sounded better than anything.

I don't see how this is preferable.
Please link me that map and I will look into a better solution.
posted
That means there's no rhythm, so that moment is unmappable. Consider using a spinner, a break, or just a pause with the object placement.
Stating a song has a steady 1/2 rhythm is a bold statement to make. Some songs divide into thirds, others don't divide at all. Stating that a song has a steady 1/1 rhythm is a basic concept of music theory. If your song doesn't have a 1/1 rhythm to it, but only a 2/1 rhythm (which corresponds to tick 0.5) then your BPM is double what it should be. Divide your BPM by two, double your slider speed, and enjoy your "tick 0.5" that way.
I'm not sure exactly what songs you're considering, but there is a whole gray area in between having a lot of emphasis on a beat and having nothing there. Having no emphasis on a beat doesn't mean there's nothing there, there might be a slow vocal there, a sound coming from 1/1 or 1/2 before with no added emphasis, just a really slow, weak sound, or many other things. Tick rate 1 is too busy for those, but those parts would be mappable. Plus, having no emphasis on a beat doesn't mean that the rest of the song doesn't follow a 1/1, it means that one part in the song doesn't, so the faster BPM is still the right BPM.

Also, for easier diffs, as NatsumeRin said, tick rate 1 would sound too busy even if the song follows a 1/1.

That's basically what I said, only I'm more open to the possibility of patterns which aren't necessarily readable given the music, but still make sense in retrospect. These situations depend on tick reading or memorization, but shouldn't necessarily be outright banned.
It's not good practice IMO to force ticks just to "ensure" that everything is readable. Just because some maps would need ticks for speed changes doesn't mean that they should be forced on all the other maps, especially when it doesn't fit :?

Most if not all songs have exceptions. What matters is that the 1/2 rhythm is stable.

Edit: I think you misunderstood. Allow me to rephrase that one:
If tick 2 clashes, so you opt for tick 1, you may experience "syncoticks" on sliders that begin on 1/2s. This is usually a sign that tick 2 is correct, but if it isn't, try to place objects more carefully. Tick 0.5 has syncoticks too! It even has them with sliders beginning on 1/1 offbeats, which almost always sounds awful. See my screenshot below.
if tick 2 clashes, it sounds really bad because it's too busy and has ticks that fit to nothing. If tick 1 is used with a 3/2 slider and the tick it puts is out of place, then this is one case I mentioned where tick rate 0.5 sounds way better. If tick rate 1 puts an out of place tick, tick rate 2 will sound even worse because the whole rhythm it creates doesn't fit. >.<

If you're using such a long slider (like in that screenshot) that doesn't call for any ticks, then there's nothing to do besides dealing with the tick, but at least it sounds better than if you used tick rate 1 or higher...

What I mean is if there's an out of place tick even with tick rate 1, then tick rate 2 will sound even worse :?

Please link me that map and I will look into a better solution.
sorry, I misunderstood what you said, so it doesn't fit your example. However, my map had a slider that started on a 1/4 and lasted 5/4 so tick rate 1 put an out of place tick (though looking back on that, I think a 3/4 slider and another beat might have been better)
posted
Personally, I like tick rate 0.5, it works really well in for me. I've been stuck with tick rate 1 for now, which is fine, but I honestly don't understand why tick rate 2 is supposed to sound like OMGEARGASMIC (joking, obviously) or something o_O I'm pretty sure I've played a couple of maps that have had 0.5 tick rate and I thought it fit perfectly
posted
pieguy, even if the music doesn't specifically ephasize every whole beat, tick 1 will still always hit rythm and basically always sound nice. I really can't think of examples where tick 1 would be "too busy" if the BPM is correct. Because it hits the beats. Always. Ticks are not supposed to emphasize musical cues, they are mostly just keeping a stready rythm. Ticks should usually not fall on heavy beats since they are such minor elements, so them hitting "unemphasized" parts is only natural. It's a way of keeping the rythm going without overemphasizing every beat.
It's not even a loud sound or anything, so it really doesn't disrupt anything and if if you use sliders in really quiet parts with mostly vocals or something you can always silence the ticks.
posted
The music doesn't always keep a constant rhythm, though. Most songs have pauses in the rhythm where having a tick just wouldn't fit, but still something to map to :?

(And I thought silencing ticks was unrankable for no reason = =... Apparently it's not, but I don't understand why this is unrankable:
Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together.
However, that's a whole new issue that I'd rather not discuss here)
posted
Basically what Luna said. If the map dominantly follows 1/1 patterns, tick 1 has to make sense because ticks are weaker elements than circles. If there is any rhythm of any kind, there should be sliderticks to uphold it. If the concern is that ticks are too powerful, try lowering the volume or choosing a better sound.

The map I prepared that screenshot from normally uses tick 2. On music which uses tick 1, it's rare for a slider to belong on a red tick.

3/4 and 3/2 sliders having ticks inside them creating a hemiola pattern is a part of the game formula. It's supposed to happen.

pieguy1372, please be honest: Do you just not like ticks at all?

Edit: I retitled your thread. Tick 0.5 is dead and gone. 100% of all arguments in here are for "sliders with no ticks, period." Please continue discussion under this context.
posted

Luna wrote:

pieguy, even if the music doesn't specifically ephasize every whole beat, tick 1 will still always hit rythm and basically always sound nice.
What if I don't think it sounds nice? Man, this is so subjective
posted

Natteke wrote:

Luna wrote:

pieguy, even if the music doesn't specifically ephasize every whole beat, tick 1 will still always hit rythm and basically always sound nice.
What if I don't think it sounds nice? Man, this is so subjective
Then you silence the ticks. They still make musical sense, if you just dislike the tick hitsound that's no reason to remove ticks altogether.
posted

Luna wrote:

Natteke wrote:

What if I don't think it sounds nice? Man, this is so subjective
Then you silence the ticks. They still make musical sense, if you just dislike the tick hitsound that's no reason to remove ticks altogether.
Some people say that is unrankable.
posted
In fact, having 0.5 tick rate sometimes works better than 0 and 1 on easier diffs, because they have a slower pace. Removing ticks in those cases entirely would be kind of odd in cases where they still fit something, but where having 1 would be too fast :?

However, having just tick rate 0 would be fine :) especially when it got denied before.

pieguy1372, please be honest: Do you just not like ticks at all?
I'm fine with ticks, but I think they're misused most of the time. I made this thread because I figured that the community would be for keeping it so that it could be useful in some cases, and if you consider only normal users it's 5 for, 3 against currently (and I'm quite sure many more would find it to be useful, as well)

If the map dominantly follows 1/1 patterns, tick 1 has to make sense because ticks are weaker elements than circles.
If there is a part that does not follow 1/1, and is slower and softer than the rest of the song, it will seem out of place in that part.

Also I knew I had heard it was unrankable before. Apparently you can silence ticks as long as the rest of the slider isn't silenced, but as I said I would rather not discuss this here = =//
posted

pieguy1372 wrote:

If the map dominantly follows 1/1 patterns, tick 1 has to make sense because ticks are weaker elements than circles.
If there is a part that does not follow 1/1, and is slower and softer than the rest of the song, it will seem out of place in that part.
Add an example here: imagine you're mapping a Easy/Normal for Evans, what would you do for the 3/4 part?
posted

NatsumeRin wrote:

Add an example here: imagine you're mapping a Easy/Normal for Evans, what would you do for the 3/4 part?

Sakura Hana wrote:

Enphasis on "make sense" for isntance i once was making a mapset in which i required the use of 3/4 triplets, since the music holds and enphasizes those 3/4 triplets a slider would work out nicely, however, since for the most part the most constant instrument was going at 1/2 rythm i was using slider tick rate 2, and the 3/4 sliders had a repeat for the triplet, so it would create a tick very close to the repeat as soon as it reached 1/2, to counter this i silenced ONLY those ticks on those sliders so it wouldn't sound awkward.

So yes i do agree with silencing sliderticks as long as they make sense with the song, if they indeed do clash with the way the slider in question is mapped.
That's what i would do
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