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Outsider - Like A Man

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Reiji-RJ

Delis wrote:

[Hard]
00:52:754 (3) - this rhythm feels sad that followed neither the drums or the vocals, would shorten it to 1/2 and a circle at 00:53:254 - to fit the rhythm around more accurately. sure
01:33:921 - think forgot a whistle for the piano nono that's the whistle rhythm ;)
Thank you, Delichan!!!
PandaHero
I agree with IceBeam about "Pump It Up" as a source, and think that "fiesta ex" shouldn't be all capitalized. The game developer is not consistent in this and can write it as a "PIU FIESTA EX', "Pump It Up 2011 Fiesta EX" or even "Pump It Up: 2011 Fiesta EX. You can check their youtube channel and find all variations.
I think that "Pump It Up 2011 Fiesta EX" as a source is most suitable for osu!, because it frequent variant that you can find in the Internet, players' liveplays, etc; it will give detailed information about this game to osu! players and they can easily find it in Google. Also it just looks better than other versions.

About capitalized "A" in title - just check this link, this how the title looks in game.

Delis wrote:

the beatmap link almost 666666

[Normal]
00:09:587 (2) - 26 degree looks too much when your sliders are usually around 15 degrees, especially it's a longer slider.
made a 15 degrees here
00:14:421 (4) - would do a 1/2 slider instead here, the drums here are more intense than anywhere else in this section. and so the rhythm 00:15:421 (2,3) - can be swapped since I'm pretty sure your rhythm here is relying on the drums not the vocals.
I agree about 1/2 slider, but disagree about swaping rhythm, I mapped a vocal in this combo
00:30:921 (5) - to be honest would stick to the drum at 00:31:087 - the reason could be the same as above but you didn't really tend to follow the pianos.
oh yeah, your rhythm iis better
01:22:754 (1,2,3,4,2,3) - spaming 1/1 stacks all of sudden? having more movements for cursor would be more interesting as it's still in the kiai. this might go to the last kiai as well.
Dunno, I think these stacks are cool
02:24:087 (1,2) - something that is more comfortable to aim such as 02:22:754 (1,2) - is absolutely a better way to represent the "only vocals" part here.
changed
some of 30 degree looking sliders occassionally look quite out of place, prob you should look through for it. 00:31:254 (6) - is one for the example.
oke but I can't see problem in it
thank you :)
Topic Starter
IceBeam
updated all diffs, added 2011 to source
Delis
Freestyler
Voli
yo, cool map and song, just a couple of structure things i noticed before this gets pushed to qualified


Freestyle

  1. 00:21:421 (1) - this one feels underwhelming compared to your usual patterning with these (ex. 01:06:754 (1) -
    ). Usually you map these patterns with some sort of flowbreak and increased spacing, but here 00:21:421 (1) - doesn't stand out much and the jump to 00:21:921 (2) - feels too much :p consider ctrl+g on that last one?
  2. 00:22:587 (5) - that strong vocal is on a sliderend here? not sure if you want that (as its the only one mapped like this throughout the entire map i think)
  3. 00:50:754 (1) - i feel like you can give this some more emphasis, with the big sv change the jump from 00:50:587 (15) - feels rather underwhelming. How about this? https://voli.s-ul.eu/yCQKUfmi.png
  4. 01:22:754 (1) - separate this note/place it further away from the rest of the pattern cuz of the huge finish and new combo? example: https://voli.s-ul.eu/e0uKjHhm.png
  5. ^ same goes for notes like 02:08:088 (1) -, check through the map if you can find places like this if you apply it
  6. sometimes the beat pairing feels a bit wrong: 02:33:254 (1,2) - are paired in this pattern but according to the song 02:33:421 (2) - should be placed further away. Same goes for notes like 02:28:087 etc.
  7. 01:56:754 (1,2,1,2) - I don't really understand the NCing here o.o whats the deal with that?
gl! and welcome back to the mapping hood :D
Topic Starter
IceBeam

Voli wrote:

yo, cool map and song, just a couple of structure things i noticed before this gets pushed to qualified


Freestyle

  1. 00:21:421 (1) - this one feels underwhelming compared to your usual patterning with these (ex. 01:06:754 (1) -
    ). Usually you map these patterns with some sort of flowbreak and increased spacing, but here 00:21:421 (1) - doesn't stand out much and the jump to 00:21:921 (2) - feels too much :p consider ctrl+g on that last one? I got what you mean, but that's the first jumpy section of the map, so I wanted 00:20:754 (11,12) to flow into this carefully, I even thought to stack slider end of (12) to start of the (1) slider lol anyway, overall I like this particular pattern so I'd like to leave it as it is.
  2. 00:22:587 (5) - that strong vocal is on a sliderend here? not sure if you want that (as its the only one mapped like this throughout the entire map i think) fully re-arranged this pattern. thanks.
  3. 00:50:754 (1) - i feel like you can give this some more emphasis, with the big sv change the jump from 00:50:587 (15) - feels rather underwhelming. How about this? https://voli.s-ul.eu/yCQKUfmi.png uhhh, doesn't look good to me now, but I guess I had to change it. fixed.
  4. 01:22:754 (1) - separate this note/place it further away from the rest of the pattern cuz of the huge finish and new combo? example: https://voli.s-ul.eu/e0uKjHhm.png that's a nice suggestion, I changed that.
  5. ^ same goes for notes like 02:08:088 (1) -, check through the map if you can find places like this if you apply it changed that as well
  6. sometimes the beat pairing feels a bit wrong: 02:33:254 (1,2) - are paired in this pattern but according to the song 02:33:421 (2) - should be placed further away. Same goes for notes like 02:28:087 etc. yeah, gotcha, I agree that the downbeat should start the combo and be a jump-to note, but in this case I just see no way to re-arrange this pattern without losing the flow and overall reworking of whole loop :\ so if it's possible, I'll just leave it like this so far but gonna keep ur suggestion in mind for future.
  7. 01:56:754 (1,2,1,2) - I don't really understand the NCing here o.o whats the deal with that? well that's a pretty common combo pattern in my map, where I point out double-circles jump patterns. there're many of such in this particulap map and in my other maps generally
gl! and welcome back to the mapping hood :D thanks a lot ;)
ReFaller
Go Beam-RJ!!!
AJIekceu

go go go
Delis
🍨reminder for oko himself 🍨

00:50:754 (1) - previous pattern felt better to me :(
Topic Starter
IceBeam

Delis wrote:

🍨reminder for oko himself 🍨

00:50:754 (1) - previous pattern felt better to me :(
thanks ;) yeah. I don't really like the new one as well, so let's see if I can make it more jumpy as it was before.
Voli
After researching I finally found the official CD cover. The song is 05. on this tracklist.

img
Front

Back

So, metadata is going to be:
Title: 남자답게
Romanised Title: Like A Man

According to both sources, artist can be kept how it is (Outsider).
Add Soliloquist to tags as it's the album name.

irc log
23:21 Voli: hey, do you need another bn for your map?
23:21 Voli: still
23:21 Voli: i wouldnt mind pushing it /w you
23:23 IceBeam: hey! well, I actually thought u won't come back to re-check it, but if u want/can qualify it then go ahead~
23:24 Voli: yea i was kinda limited with time
23:24 Voli: alright
23:24 Voli: you wanna irc a bit then?
23:24 IceBeam: okay no prob, just didn't really want to bother u much
23:24 IceBeam: uh I actually was about to sleep xD got something more to point out?
23:24 Voli: na its fine
23:25 Voli: hmm
23:25 Voli: well one thing is that your combos get so high in the map
23:25 Voli: sometimes you nc every 2 measures and sometimes 1
23:25 Voli: wouldnt you wanna cut combos like this into 2
23:25 Voli: 00:13:087 (17) -
23:28 IceBeam: they're usually at 2 measures but I cut to 1 in stream moments or some where 1 seems more suitable. if long combos are rankabnle then I'd like to leave it as it is cause it's the way I did them my whole mapping carreer. sorta old-schoolish thing
23:29 Voli: hmm
23:29 Voli: yea i understand
23:29 Voli: well the only thing in the RC is
23:29 Voli: Ensure that your combos are not unreasonably short or long. Combos should reflect patterns expressed in the song, such as bars of music or vocal/instrumental phrases.
23:30 Voli: and i dont think your map necessarily breaks that
23:31 Voli: 00:34:421 (8) - move this one a bit closer to 00:33:921 (7) - maybe?
23:31 Voli: so the strong vocal at 00:34:754 (1) - stands out more
23:31 IceBeam: well it's how I feel it with nc
23:31 IceBeam: for example
23:31 IceBeam: 00:02:754 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) -
23:31 IceBeam: I feel like these whole 2 measures make a rhytm
23:31 IceBeam: which repeats in another 2 measures
23:31 Voli: yeah i think it's fine
23:31 IceBeam: and etc
23:32 Voli: it was just a thought
23:32 IceBeam: so breaking it would be unnatural for me
23:33 IceBeam: okay moved to 36 120
23:33 Voli: alright
23:33 Voli: 00:09:087 (6) -
23:33 Voli: consider [https://voli.s-ul.eu/xNUxnexn.png this] rhythm?
23:34 Voli: you usually have these sounds on a note 00:09:421 -
23:36 IceBeam: tried that but would like to leave mine
23:36 Voli: okay
23:36 Voli: 01:09:921 (4) - shouldnt that be a triple for the vocals?
23:38 IceBeam: well about that I use the same rhytm in all the chorus parts so changing anything would break whole consistency
23:38 Voli: ah yeah
23:38 Voli: i noticed now
23:38 Voli: you skip those vocals everytime
23:38 Voli: mm okay
23:39 Voli: lemme check quickly through the other diffs
23:39 IceBeam: alright
23:41 Voli: countdown on normal is inconsistent
23:41 Voli: normal has it off and the rest has it on
23:41 Voli: same with widescreen support
23:42 Voli: could you make them consistent across the diffs?
23:43 Voli: i think the title should be 남자답게 too
23:43 IceBeam: oh my bad, sure
23:43 Voli: and romanised ''like a man''
23:44 Voli: im not sure if Outsider is a romanised version of his artist name
23:44 IceBeam: hmm not sure, it's a track from rhytm game Pump it Up, and there it's written exacly like this. We checked everything in official sources
23:45 Voli: do you have a metadata source i can check :o
23:45 Voli: i gotta be sure otherwise i'll get fired from bn ;(
23:45 Voli: looljk
23:45 Voli: maybe
23:45 IceBeam: yeah there're lots of link in the thread, let me find it
23:47 IceBeam: list of songs in the game: http://www.piugame.com/piu.prime/piu.my ... =FIESTA_EX
23:47 IceBeam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl3nQB3 ... e=youtu.be
23:47 IceBeam: and this song exacly in game, a video
23:48 Voli: hmm
23:48 IceBeam: so if we take PiU as a Source I guess we gotta use this meta
23:48 Voli: lemme see
23:48 Voli: i just bubbled another map from that game
23:49 *Voli is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1360693 Louis - Chung Hwa Ban Jeom [Another]]
23:49 Voli: pandahero does have the hangul name as title though
23:51 IceBeam: perhaps in that map
23:51 IceBeam: I mean track*
23:51 IceBeam: but here I found a video from PiU version
23:51 IceBeam: u see it when u play this track on PiU
23:51 Voli: ah?
23:51 IceBeam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kp9NN8H8jE
23:51 Voli: is that version different
23:51 Voli: from the original song?
23:51 IceBeam: in the video it's also romanized
23:51 Voli: Music
23:52 Voli: "남자답게" by Outsider ()
23:52 Voli: https://hulkpop.com/album-outsider-vol-1-soliloquist/
23:52 Voli: thats the album the song is from
23:53 Voli: its 05.
23:54 IceBeam: uhh I don't know if they're different.. I mean if I took it separetely from artist's album - then I should have used korean name, but if I use a rhytm game I saw it and there it's romanized - then I should this name
23:54 IceBeam: that's really complicated lol

Call me!
Topic Starter
IceBeam
@ Voli

- fixed title in all difs
- added album name to tags in all diffs
- applied those changes we disscussed yesterday on normal and freestyle
Voli
Grats on first qualified map in 5 years :D
Topic Starter
IceBeam
thanks for help everyone~

welcome to 2012, osu peeps
Reiji-RJ
Gratzu, Beam and Panda!!!
Delis
woohoo
PandaHero
Yay \o/
Niva
Yes! Many congratulations IceBeam~ (and Reiji-RJ + PandaHero as well!)

btw @Reiji : In case you're reading this the supporter tag that you received earlier was actually from me hehe - no particular reason or else really, I was just looking at my friend list back then to check whether there are still many active mappers from the past days and I'm simply feeling like giving it to someone at random :3
Realazy
holy shit the nostalgia

grats!
Namki
palju õnne
alacat
<3
Natteke desu
Myxo
Absolutely amazing.
Mao
I love this
Glass
:OOOOOOOOOOOO
Sieg
ничего себе, я думал все уже умерли
Doyak
I think the unicode artist should better be 아웃사이더, as that's the formal name he uses. Outsider is just about representing it in original English. Even though most Korean artists don't mind using them just in English for foreigners, it's still not the exact one they would use to identify themselves. http://assacomz.com/artist/outsider/ https://www.facebook.com/offic.outsider
Gordon123
oh lol ;w;
Topic Starter
IceBeam
sigh......................

@ Doyak, Voli found out his korean release cd cover I guess and he uses english Outsider name there. I'm sure it's unnecessary to add anything else.

Voli wrote:

After researching I finally found the official CD cover. The song is 05. on this tracklist.

img
Front

Back
Doyak
That doesn't mean much to be honest... many Japanese artists also have their romanised name on the CD cover but that doesn't mean they want their name to be written like that formally? Also 아웃사이더 literally is pronunciation of Outsider so it's nothing strange to have it on a CD.

Also if you think you can rely on that CD, it shows outsider (all lowercase) and I guess you don't want to follow it.
Reiji-RJ
Few years ago osu! didn't even have 'original' and 'romanized' titles/artists. And tbh I don't think somebody searches maps by the names written in kanji/korean/russian/whatever letters. At least it can be added to the tags, but I don't see the reason to change the artist's name ._.
Doyak
Well, that's exactly why we have unicode artist field now, because we want to keep as many things as official. If we wouldn't use when it can be used, why would it even exist. I'll get some more opinions on this.
Topic Starter
IceBeam
yeah, 2k17 osu priorities
let's rank unreasonably overmapped shit, but at least it has a fully correct meta!

but seriously, it's a f2p game and it should be enjoyable. no one's gonna even sue you anyway, so adding extra fields and guidelines which make an already extremely tiring ranking process even more complicated is a really wise and well-thought decision, right? especially when BNs themselves feel uncomfortable to push the button because they can get screwed because of meta. and finally, why shouild I see a foreign alphabet which is unreadable for me when I play my own map? I find this offending and dissapointing for my gaming experience.
Sieg
лучше потратить 10 минут и быстро реквалифайнуться, чем спорить 3 дня и потом получить диск все равно. не первый раз уже подобное случается
Topic Starter
IceBeam
@ Sieg, I understand, but that's funny how many people would agree with me but would never said that. Anyway, back on topic, to whoever gonna reply next - dont't you guys feel like the point of Source is completely lost? I mean, I already told so to Voli. I've heard this song from another videogame, so it's literally a source and there it's fully in english. So adding korean name was already unnecessary in my opinion, because now it's not consistent with the source origins. I should have used current meta if I was referring to an album. And now you want me to refer to a korean website. How could I even found this out myself if I can't read korean? That means that just choosing to map a non-english song practically makes it almost impossible to find correct data without 3rd party help. And I'd be okay if the meta was wrong, but hey, if PIU got his song/artist used fully in english, shouldn't it mean that the singer himself signed and agreed to use exactly this data? Because they diffenetly contacted him as PIU is a commercial game.
toybot

Doyak wrote:

Also if you think you can rely on that CD, it shows outsider (all lowercase) and I guess you don't want to follow it.
icebeam maybe address this and other counterarguments first before going off on your own spiel behind your philosophy on the "necessity of metadata" and whatnot. i love your map, but its sad to see you make such a pointless argument over a rather insignificant change in the long run. just get it over with and move on..

i don't even think you have to contact your original 2 bns for requalification, just poke the qat and its done

IceBeam wrote:

no one's gonna even sue you anyway, so adding extra fields and guidelines which make an already extremely tiring ranking process even more complicated is a really wise and well-thought decision, right?
maps have already been taken down from download and mp3 removed due to DMCA, who's to say suing isn't a plausible option

IceBeam wrote:

and finally, why shouild I see a foreign alphabet which is unreadable for me when I play my own map? I find this offending and dissapointing for my gaming experience.
because koreans also play this game
Nao Tomori
Also there's an option to change everything to English if you don't wanna see those disgusting Korean alphabet :)
Voli
The metadata is correct according to the available sources. I don't see much need to amend it at this point, to be honest. Both sources don't use the hangul version of his name.. Even on the site Doyak linked, the artist is referred to in English on the album list.
Topic Starter
IceBeam
@ toybot I'm pretty sure that koreans that play osu are also pretty familiar with PiU and they won't have any problems with reading english titles and it will be more consistent for everyone. As usual, don't blindly ignore my arguments about terms of using Source in general and that exactly this song is represented in english in another popular rhythm game and I'm pretty sure personally Outsider himself was fine with that data. So referring to PiU my data was correct, and everything else should be optional.

and to answer your question regarding lowercase name on the cd cover - well, that's a very weak argument. you know, many artists even write their names upside down on the covers, so what? that's like, design and a font choice, huh?

personally I don't wanna behave like that, but I'm forced to defend what I think is right, and moreover what feels more logical to me. I'll do the changes if I'll get strong arguments and if my point will be also considered, at least because I can't shit on Reiji's & Panda's work. But what me makes really upset is that I've heard the same things from dozens of people that aren't happy about all these guidelines that make ranking process cringy for both mappers and bns. and just look what all this disscussion is turned into (even if it's me to blame it for) and how so many people waste that much time on a such minor thing like that instead of focusing on making ranking process more user-friendly, especially for novices.
Myxo
Complaining about a map getting disqualified for a small thing belongs in the past. Unlike a few years ago there's no punishment at all for the BNs if a map they nominated gets disqualified. So nobody is getting 'screwed' for pushing the qualified button. The only thing that would happen is they might have to recheck it for a couple minutes and the map will be ranked a few days later, it really shouldn't be a big deal.

Also, related to the actual topic: The point of metadata is that it's consistent across all mapsets that get ranked. For example, multiple maps of the same song should have the exact same metadata applied to it. This can only be ensured by having stricter rules than in the past, because obviously it didn't work well back then at all. I personally don't care much about it either, but I'll just leave it to the experts if there's something wrong with the metadata on my sets. So yeah, my point is you should just change it so it's consistent with other korean songs ranked in the last year(s) and move on.
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