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[Guideline] Map Accountability

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NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
I still think collabs with the mapper mapping one part in all diffs is fine as long as the mapper mapped a part equal or longer than the rest.
The mapper could also do more work by making a SB or being the one who organized the collab.
e.g. Last Time Travel.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn

NoHItter wrote:

I still think collabs with the mapper mapping one part in all diffs is fine as long as the mapper mapped a part equal or longer than the rest.
The mapper could also do more work by making a SB or being the one who organized the collab.
e.g. Last Time Travel.
This follows in with the "the uploader must provide more content than any other single person"

And storyboarding is not necessarily imperative to the functionality of a map, although it can be considered content when it's questionable as to who provided the most.


Note that i use "provide content" rather than "did work" since a single mapper can do an entire mapset with the same amount of effort as one person doing twenty seconds, thus, the best way to gauge effort and "work" is through the end product.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
The rules should be modified by changin from "than any other" to "than other". this way the uploader can map 2 difficulties and the other can map 3. The Skin and the StoryBoard should count if done by the mapper, but that doesn't mean you can map one difficulty and another SINGLE mapper can map two or more.

A map's uploader should provide more content towards the mapset than another single contributor, in the sense that the contributor can't map more than you. You can provide, for example, one difficulty, and the other can provide maximum one difficulty each.
the way the draft say is you have to map at lest the 50% of your map, without other mapping less than you, so the correction up here should be more acceptable
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
Rena-chan
Rena-chan

Shiirn wrote:

A map's uploader must have provided more content towards the mapset than any other single contributor. This means that if you are to have a collaboration mapset, you must have mapped at least one difficulty fully, and no other mapper mapped more than one difficulty (Taiko difficulties count as a difficulty). In cases of specific difficulty collabs, the uploader in question must have provided more content than any other contributor. (i.e. uploader maps a seperate difficulty on top of collabing in said difficulty) This rule need not apply for approval mapsets which may include single-difficulty collaboration. Storyboards do not count as "content" towards this gauging.
I wanted to throw in something about "Consistently mapping only one difficulty of each of your ranked maps means you're a lazy smut" but couldn't figure out how to word it politely.
I think that's a just fine way to word it.

Personally though, I think it should be fine as long as the uploader doesn't contribute less to the mapset than any other single mapper that may take part in it. Not so much because of the laziness it may imply, but I really like seeing how other people would map a song.
That's my excuse for mostly mapping just one difficulty for my mapsets, at least. I can see why it would be frowned upon, but it's one of those things I disagree with.

Also, I don't see why storyboards shouldn't count as "content" towards this gauging, as a good storyboard takes just as much, if not more, effort to make than a single difficulty does. Also, isn't it wrong to say that a storyboard doesn't contribute at all towards gameplay ?
I find storyboards and videos to give a more "complete" playing experience than a map that has neither, if that makes any sense.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
unless the mappers in question didn't want to submit the collab map, then it leaves the one who did less work to submit it and with this guideline it just gridlocks him. I think if anything it should be taken case by case some mappers might help more on a song they aren't willing to submit.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
why submit something a mapper doesn't want to submit anyway? if two mapper worked for a collab, and one isn't willing to submit at the time...? You could say the one submitting is right?
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

ztrot wrote:

unless the mappers in question didn't want to submit the collab map, then it leaves the one who did less work to submit it and with this guideline it just gridlocks him.
As a matter of principle, the uploader should make a substantial contribution to the map. Their name has been put on the map, so it's only logical that they're featured prominently.

In a similar vein, I believe that the uploader of a map should usually be the one to make the hardest difficulty. In the case of my [Insane] for Jarby's 'Symmetry' map, I simply did that because I insisted that an Insane map could be made and I wanted to prove it. It turned into me going ahead and doing the rest of the map. Of course, I also like Jarby very much and would use any excuse to do him a favour. Otherwise, the hardest difficulty of a map is effectively the uploader's showstage--it fleshes out all of the mapset's ideas and shows us everything that the mapper is capable of in a difficulty.

If nothing else, it's nothing more than laziness. To me, requests for guest Hards or Insanes say,"I've mapped all of the easier difficulties. Could you pour a load of effort into the most flashy map, which pretty much everybody will play when they look at the map, so that I can take the credit by attaining a ranking?"

The phrase "start as you mean to go on" comes to mind. One might as well show some willing by mapping the difficulty which requires the most effort.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn
If you have a collab map, you shouldn't have to map fully one diff... I know of multiple maps where the mapper did not map one full diff and everything turned out fine. I also don't think it's necessary for the mapper to map a part in every diff.

I think that the mapper should have to map at least one diff, across all diffs. Example: the mapper maps 50% of hard, 50% of insane and none of normal. This situation would be acceptable IMO.

I also think that a guest mapper can be allowed to have more diffs in the map than the mapper as long as the guest mapper says it's OK... (because then there's no problem)
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
if two mapper collab for three difficulty it's right, actually.
But making a collab and letting others map full difficulty, can't logically means you are the submitter.

The submitter should at least the same work done by any other mapper... or a "bit less", he's taking into account map preparation, mod searching and similiar.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Two mappers collab a map

Mapper A contributes 70%
Mapper B contributes 30%

Mapper A has no available slots for uploading
Mapper B has 1 abailable slot.

Would Mapper B be allowed to upload the map? Also, I guess it's fine if it is agreed upon by both mappers that the one who contributed the less is uploading it?
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn
CXu: i highly, highly disagree. The entire reason i suggested this is so that mappers are accountable for what they've started or done - Mapper A can wait until he gets enough upload slots.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
Just going to bring this old topic from the grave. I'll bring up a scenario as I'm not a great writter.

Player B mapped a map set and Player A mapped a guest diff for the set. However, Player B figured he can no longer upload his map (there is absolutly no way to upload except to have someone else to log in to his account somewhere else). Player B even had more then enough slot to upload the beat map. This is a trouble, but Player A kindly offered his remaining map slot (yay!). Unfortunately, this map got nuked because it violated the Map Accountability Rule. However, because of this unique case, there was a BAT discussion over this issue. It was never revealed as the solution they came up with was to lock the thread of the map and make Player B to erase all his name on the beatmap or let it graved.

You can follow up the (revealed) case on this link

Points to be considered:
  • Player B had 2 slots to upload, but could no upload the beatmap due to restriction on his Internet
    Player A did not mind giving up his slot
    The diff spread was 3 diff from Player B and a diff from Player A (75% > 25%)

Personally, I don't see how this could possibly threaten the gameplay itself. All what Player B wanted to have was his name shown on the difficulty name. Most BAT's first reactions (who have posted on the thread atleast) were in disagreement. Why would that be? The rule must be based on common sense since Map Accountability isn't much of a technical issue. You could tell there is clearly something wrong when BATs can't agree on such issue. However I'll leave the past behind since it's pointless now. All I want is the discussion and the conclusion BATs had to be revealed. It would definately help to bring an inprovement to this rule.



P.S. Why did I give up last time? Because I didn't want ouran and DxS's effort to end up in the graveyard. Personally did not minded having this map graved.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn
All rules have exceptions - this is no exception to that rule.

This rule i am suggesting is more to prevent mappers from being blatantly lazy and underachievers with their maps than mutual agreements.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
Question:
Are Taiko diffs treated like other standard difficulties for accountability?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

bmin11 wrote:

Question:
Are Taiko diffs treated like other standard difficulties for accountability?
I dont see why not
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

Shiirn wrote:

I wanted to throw in something about "Consistently mapping only one difficulty of each of your ranked maps means you're a lazy smut" but couldn't figure out how to word it politely.
Why does it even matter? If I like having guest diffs in my maps and people are actually willing to contribute to my map, am I just going to tell them "No, I can't because people will think I'm lazy" Fuck, this is no good.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Natteke wrote:

Why does it even matter? If I like having guest diffs in my maps and people are actually willing to contribute to my map, am I just going to tell them "No, I can't because people will think I'm lazy" Fuck, this is no good.
There's no way you could tell them that unless it's going for approval/grave, in which case who the fuck cares.

Shiirn's only asking that you make beatmap sets like that every once in a while.

But no, this doesn't matter, other than the fact that if you put forth minimal effort into the beatmap, why should you be the one who gets it ranked?
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

ziin wrote:

But no, this doesn't matter, other than the fact that if you put forth minimal effort into the beatmap, why should you be the one who gets it ranked?
Oh dear, are you really this close minded?

Because no one else started a mapset with the song in question.
Because people have their pending slots full.
Because people wanted to contribute to the map with their guest diffs.
Because mapper asked other mappers for a guest diff.
Because someone has already submitted a map and you can just make a guest diff instead of making a new mapset.
etc etc etc


It's not like you get something from ranking. It would be understandable if mapper got paid for ranked maps and guest mappers didn't get anything, but things don't work this way.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Natteke wrote:

Because mapper asked other mappers for a guest diff.
a.k.a Lazyness.
Anyways, the point is that if there's a guest mapper with more diffs than the main mapper, the guest one should be the one submitting the set, i really have no problem is there's equal ammount of diffs from each mapper.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

Sakura Hana wrote:

Natteke wrote:

Because mapper asked other mappers for a guest diff.
a.k.a Lazyness.
I could point out all your maps that are full of guest diffs but I won't. My point is that it shouldn't matter how many guest diffs there are in a map and who made these guest diffs.
Last edited by Natteke , edited 1 time in total.
lkjl23
207 posts
Joined July 2010
lkjl23
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Last edited by lkjl23 , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The 1st one, Krisom requested the Insane since i started mapping it, it wasnt me asking him to map it.
The 2nd one, i made the Insane? wth xD, tho this was a collaboration mapset and maaaany people asked me for guest diff i had to even turn down 2 of them (and Lily coz he was late).
The 3rd one i wasn't good at making Insanes yet, plus it was a collaboration mapset
lkjl23
207 posts
Joined July 2010
lkjl23
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Last edited by lkjl23 , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Depends on the map, plus i said:

Sakura hana wrote:

i really have no problem is there's equal ammount of diffs from each mapper.
lkjl23
207 posts
Joined July 2010
lkjl23
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Last edited by lkjl23 , edited 2 times in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Asking others to map diffs for your map IS lazyness, it's a different story if they request it themselves, remember Natteke said:

Natteke wrote:

people are actually willing to contribute to my map, am I just going to tell them "No, I can't because people will think I'm lazy" Fuck, this is no good.
It would be ironic if you ask them to map a diff for your map then later tell them no because they'll think your lazy, a.k.a Natteke was talking about diffs that people actually requested him to include.

I do agree that if people ask you to let them add their guest difficulties it isnt really laziness, it's only called lazyness when you ask them to map for your own maps.

I'm not going to say i'm not lazy, because i am, but that doesn't mean i can't tell others to not be lazy, and myself im trying to fix the lazy part of me.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
Lolwhat, Sakura, I love some mappers and their styles and I'd obviously want to see their diffs in my mapsets. You gonna call me "lazy" for that? Sort out your views.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Yes i will, anyways it's impossible to tell from the map itself who requested their diff to be in there, and who got requested their diff to be in there, nevertheless it's pointless to have a map where X mapper made 2 guest diffs, and you the beatmap creator made 1, from that point of view looks to me like the one who should've been the beatmap creator was X mapper instead of yourself.
So i support this guideline.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
Er, what if X mapper doesn't want to submit his own mapset and thinks it's easier to map guest diffs for another mapper? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's something bad.
akrolsmir
606 posts
Joined November 2010
akrolsmir
It's a guideline anyways. Just make exceptions on a case-by-case basis, and generally adhere to having whoever did the most work upload the beatmap. Spending time to think of specific corner cases seems counterproductive.
Last edited by akrolsmir , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Natteke wrote:

Er, what if X mapper doesn't want to submit his own mapset and thinks it's easier to map guest diffs for another mapper? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's something bad.
Actually i'd like it since i'm lazy too, but as i said, it makes no sense
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
Um, why? What makes a map where someone contributed more than the uploader less suitable for the end goal, the players? I understand we want to deter laziness but in the end there is no practical difference.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

Sakura Hana wrote:

Natteke wrote:

Er, what if X mapper doesn't want to submit his own mapset and thinks it's easier to map guest diffs for another mapper? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's something bad.
Actually i'd like it since i'm lazy too, but as i said, it makes no sense

What makes no sense? Carrying out a more logical task instead of an illogical one?
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Aaaah this argument is so pointless. "Laziness" is also relative to effort/time per difficulty, specific circumstances of the map, consistency of a mapper across their maps, etc. It's not like you can just add up all the difficulties of a map, put them into a formula and find out how lazy the mapper is :<

I'd support a guideline that encourages the greatest contributor to a map to be it's uploader because it just makes more sense, but getting into petty debates about what laziness is is just silly
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

RandomJibberish wrote:

but getting into petty debates about what laziness is is just silly
QFT
Which is why i stopped coming from that point of view.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
I thought this was more of a point to stop people from bypassing the upload restriction, not the laziness.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
^

This rule should forbid nothing. (Nothing!) All it tells us is who should upload a map, not what goes inside it.

Special cases like bmin's can be sorted out by the BAT. I think it would be okay if he could find a cybercafe to upload from just once, then subsequent uploads can be done by someone with haxsubmit rights. Once osz2 is out, it will become easier for us to change a mapset's owner, so we could change the owner to him as we're about to rank.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Natteke wrote:

Er, what if X mapper doesn't want to submit his own mapset and thinks it's easier to map guest diffs for another mapper? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's something bad.
The other mapper could upload a mapset and the initial mapper could have their difficulty added. I also don't see what's so hard about including one or two guests and then making another difficulty (preferably Insane) yourself. Even as a collab, one could still map one map and part of a collab Insane (even better if it's a collab Insane on top of their own Insane).

Either way, if a mapper has clearly made a minimal contribution to "their" mapset, then it's obviously a cause for annoyance. Obviously, intentional and labelled collaborations are not a problem, because then it's a case of, "Hey guys, let's make a mapset together!" It's a far cry from "Hey guys, I started this, but I didn't have the foresight to realise that I'd be a lazy arse about it. Do my work for me please."
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
Lol and the original mapset would will stay pending for another month taking mapper's map space and will eventually die. Just because people like you are hatin' for no apparent reason. Sounds stupid to me. And it's always the same shit you know, people who sucks at both mapping and playing are coming up with the most retarded ideas. Probably to fill the empty space where skill could be placed? Idk. It keeps going in circles for a while. The same people complain about "people being lazy" - it's none of your business, in my opinion, if you get your butt hurt on people who have guest diffs in their maps, that's your problem.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn

Natteke wrote:

Lol and the original mapset would will stay pending for another month taking mapper's map space and will eventually die. Just because people like you are hatin' for no apparent reason. Sounds stupid to me. And it's always the same shit you know, people who sucks at both mapping and playing are coming up with the most retarded ideas. Probably to fill the empty space where skill could be placed? Idk. It keeps going in circles for a while. The same people complain about "people being lazy" - it's none of your business, in my opinion, if you get your butt hurt on people who have guest diffs in their maps, that's your problem.
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