tofubeats - CANDYYYLAND feat LIZ - Pa's Lam System Remix

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hi-mei
Yea the only complaint of mine is that you guys didnt allow the player enough of time to learn concepts you built.

00:36:618 (1,1,1,2,1,2,1,2) - and 00:41:118 (1,2,1,2) - examples of what i mean

you dont distinguish what is fast and what is not, the player is like WTF

however i think its just a matter of this kind of music, its meant to be unexpected but when you equate 3/4 slider into 1/4 with the same form/spacing and shit, it feels a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit too much

00:55:930 (1,1,2,3) - hoyl sh... it literally contradicts 01:24:243 (1,1,2,3) - this place with almost the same spacing/placement/form, but its 1/2s instead of 1/4s
ailv
00:37:368 (1) - remove nc, here u have nc on sv change but theres no sv change

00:38:868 (1,2,1,2) - this part only maps the background synth with 2.65, and really weakens 00:41:118 (1,2,1,2) - in comparison, since this has vocals too.

00:35:868 (1,2,1,2) - imo ctrl-g each of these to match raising pitch + intensity much like u do here 00:41:868 (1,1,1,1) -

00:53:868 (1,2,3,4) - imo these prolly should move upward to match raising pitch and intensity

00:54:618 (1) - ctrl-g to match pitch , u can move it up too to maintain same spacing

00:55:368 (1,2,3,4) - nc

01:40:368 (1,2,3) - why's the spacing so low here, compared to 01:39:618 (1,2,3,4) - or 01:41:118 (1,2,3,4) - or 01:45:618 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - ?
I don't really get why you ignore the 1/4th in these either.

02:47:868 (1) - i don't hear anything to warrant a repeat here


03:03:805 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - these are different rhythms here but they're mapped the same way moving it back to 03:03:618 - is the right way to capture this rhythm imo
honestly here i don't even see any reason to skip over the melody as before and after you map it fully

02:03:055 (2,2) - why aren't these 1/8 to match consistency with 02:04:555 (1,1) -

02:23:680 (1) - why not two circles to maintain consistency with the prior section

01:48:618 (1,2,3) - idk what this rhythm is supposed to capture, you missed the syncopated melody on 01:48:993 -

same here 01:50:118 (1,2,3) -

02:08:680 (2) - why map this note

i think this 03:11:493 (1,2) - works better stacked under 03:11:118 (1,2) -

i don't see a reason to make a sharp stream 03:29:868 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - , whereas the rest are flowy curve

02:45:430 (4) - this seems like a part of 02:44:868 (1,2,3) - this pattern when it's seperate, it lacks the vocals, it'd change the shape here to help distinguish this,
nextplay
top diff
02:15:797 - nice unsnapped green line
Exote
bombarded
Topic Starter
ProfessionalBox
I will look at the mods on friday (have irl stuff to do until then) so if anyone else has anything else to say then pile them mods up. I'll say it right here so that it doesn't come as a surprise to anyone but I am not looking to fundamentally change the map so there are frankly only 2 kind of changes I'm going to apply:

1) Unrankable issues
2) Suggestions that would enhance the map HUGELY (this is very much all down to me and my views no surprise but I won't talk here on the behalf of handsome so he can choose to apply what he wants, if he wants)

I want for people to realize that my view on the top diff is that the map is just how I want for it to be. We worked on this map for a good while and the only 2 options I see going forward are:

1) Ranking the map as it is (with possible changes as mentioned earlier)
2) Not ranking the map (Beatmap Graveyard)

So in either scenario the map will be practically the same no matter the outcome. I appreciate everyone who wants to make the map better by chipping in with a mod so if you have anything you want to say when it comes to possible changes on the map, please do. Even if I reply with a disagreement it doesn't mean I'm not glad to see people wanting to help to make the best map there can be.

Lastly (this isn't tied as closely to what I've been talking about in this post earlier, mostly a reply to some general hate I guess since I felt like I wanted to respond to it aswell) I wanted to point out that I constructed the whole set in mind with pleasing most of the technical map lovers out there (4 extra difficulties of which atleast 3 are fundamentally different). There should be a difficulty for most to enjoy so even if one or more of the difficulties isn't to your liking, there is someone out there who enjoys the ones you might not. I hope everyone can keep that in mind when it comes to the future of the mapset instead of demanding this for not to be ranked purely because in their eyes a single difficulty on it doesn't look like it should be ranked. If the mapset itself wasn't rankable then we would never even be having this conversation.

I hope the community can stay being more open minded like it has when it comes to maps made in recent times and in the end it is the beatmap nominators who make sure that the maps they nominate are worthy of being ranked so just because you yourself might not recognize the worth in a map it doesn't mean that others see the map same way as you do.
hehe
ya
Lavender

RLC wrote:

Fuck players
Shiguma

Mir wrote:

Apparently those things in winber's diff are SSable just really inconsistently it seems.
I too make maps to be strictly SS'able and especially complain about parts that play "unfairly" even though they're completely fine!

Sure the map might be overdone but your reasoning is piss poor and it's as if you didn't actually try to understand why the diff was mapped as it was
Mir

Shiguma wrote:

Mir wrote:

Apparently those things in winber's diff are SSable just really inconsistently it seems.
I too make maps to be strictly SS'able and especially complain about parts that play "unfairly" even though they're completely fine!

Sure the map might be overdone but your reasoning is piss poor and it's as if you didn't actually try to understand why the diff was mapped as it was
I didn't expect you to type such a post. Color me surprised.

The point isn't if they're SSable or not, it's about whether it's fair difficulty, and honestly, it doesn't look like it is. If it is fine in your opinion, can you explain why it's fine then, instead of just bashing on my statement pointlessly?

I would rather have a civil discussion than passive-aggressive flaming, I just want explanations on how whatever I wrote is fine. If there's a valid reason that the 1/8 sliders are fair difficulty then I'll concede, sure.


lol.

We talked it's fine.

My point does still stand, I don't really care if they're difficult to SS or whatnot I just think that the rng factor is the biggest issue.
hi-mei
ok since everyone is voicing his opinion, here is my two cents:

before I start, I have to mention that I do like ProBox personally, and its just my opinion. Ill be ok if it gonna get thru, cuz this map gonna shift the meta a lot, which is always nice.

so here we go:
Sweet Surrender


Two quotes:
"If you got to write paragraphs to explain stuff you mapped - you failed as a mapper" (c) Shiirn
"Nobody is special just because hes trying to be special" (c) Loctav

I might be mistaken in wording but you got the thing, right? I truly believe these two quotes are describing quite nicely what is happened in this mapset. You guys tried to squeeze the shit out of your minds to make the player be like "WAAAAAOW" but in reality players are like "WTFFFFFFFFF"

Here is quick explanation of why that is the case here: basically you guys kinda ignored progression as a concept in some parts, or just made the shit to escalate way too rapidly.

Structure:
00:36:618 (1,1,1,2,1,2,1,2) - basically you dont tell the player what is fast and what is slow, these are completely the same.
00:41:118 (1,2,1,2) - same thing

00:55:930 (1,1,2,3) - I mentioned that thing already, you didnt prepare the player for such flow burst.

01:01:368 (1,2,3,4) - the way you make escalation here is way different from 00:49:368 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - these are the same music phrases but ehhhhhh in first one you do 3.3x > 3.3x > 3.3x> 3.3x > 5.7x > 5.7x
In the second one theres is like: 2.3x > 3.9x > 4.2x > 4.3x

What i mean here, is that you dont really know what it is when you see it. The structure you built is deluding. Here is another example:
00:55:930 (1,1,2,3) - and 01:24:243 (1,1,2,3) - these are literally the same pattern-wsem so the player is getting ready for huge triplet, but LOLJK its not. its 1/2s.

01:25:180 - 01:36:618 - this part is done really nicely!

01:45:055 (2,3,4) - thats too much in my opinion, its ok when you break the triplets into something like 01:36:805 (2,3,4) - its cool and at least has a flow in it (but still, its 1/4s the f...?) This is also the place where most of players fail.

01:53:680 (2,1) - compare it to 01:51:805 (2,1) - this spike is HUGE and indicates literally nothing (another Candy-Candy chorus), here you got a strong beat 01:53:868 (1) - and no spacing to the previous slider end at all.

02:08:305 (1,1) - these are equal, you increasing the sv instead
02:08:868 (1) - same, have no idea why you choosing patterning over logic here

02:15:805 (1) - 02:16:180 - 02:16:555 - 02:16:930 - this stuff if where most of players fails at, why? because you didnt restructure these slow sliders (at least make them straight like here 00:42:993 (1) - or here 02:18:243 (1) - ) the biggest flaw of this map in my opinion
02:21:805 (1) - 02:22:180 (1) - same

02:55:930 - so this thing. It lacks 3 (flow, emphasis, structure) out of 4 the most important things in mapping (rhythm is left). You basically removed the visual aspect of the game here. Everyone gets misses/100s/50s cuz of it. I would suggest to make an offset x=2 at least.

03:15:243 (1) - you sacrificed structure/flow for aesthetics here. But how is this expected?

Hitsounding:
Few words about hitsounds in general:

00:39:055 (2) - 00:39:430 (2) - this hitsounds are really questionable, i mean, i basically have no idea why is 00:39:055 (2) - has a Normal and not add/soft+whistle (like this 00:39:430 (2) - )
OR
why is 00:39:430 (2) - add/soft+whistle? You got 4 sounds, 00:38:868 - 00:39:055 - 00:39:243 - 00:39:430 - 1,3 are loud, 2,4 are quiet, but instead of replicating this into music you make these 3 as loud ones 00:38:868 (1,2,1) - and the last one 00:39:430 (2) - as a quite, despite all of them has the same placement and speed.

Flow:
00:52:180 (1,2,3) - its really hard to read, you did kinda similar thing with triplet here 00:48:618 (1,2,3,4) - but it was rather a hold-stream.
02:00:618 (1,1) - 02:09:993 (1) - 03:06:243 (1) - I think that sliders like that should be more simple form-wise, because most of players are struggling in hitting these (i actually watched Yaong's and OPJames replays). My suggestion is to nerf it, like 20% less SV. Let people bitch about fast sliders on hollow wings maps.

Aesthetics:
00:23:118 (1) - it doesnt reflect the music properly, 00:23:868 - this thing is a new sound measure, even being a part of 00:23:118 - doesnt make it that dependent to previous vocal phrase.
00:08:118 (1) - actually its an aesthetic thing but still triggers me. THAT RED ANCHOR!!!!!!!!!

Overall I can say that you can fix all of the major issues in like 20 mins of ur time and requalify this. Theres not that much to cry about but still you got to make this a bit more readable.

fanzhen's Extra


Aesthetics:
I know there are no standards in regards of slider art but...
00:00:618 (1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1) - how do the reflect the song? they are completely random, doest correlate with each other. Hello its 2017 you can make more simplistic and at the same time more nice stuff.
00:46:743 (1) - you could make this look way better, since you started that grid:

Structure:
01:01:368 (1) - and this 00:49:368 (1) - i honestly think you should kinda choose what kind of pattern you use for that sounds. I Still think that escalating distance is better than double-jump-double-jump.
03:30:618 (1) - I mean... 03:27:618 (1) - 03:29:118 (1) - 03:24:618 (1) - 03:26:118 (1) - and suddenly a cringed something 03:30:618 (1) - and 03:32:118 (1) - 03:33:618 (1) -

03:35:868 - here shud be an NC I guess?

Rhythm:
01:37:180 - I think it should be 1/2 instead of 3/4, since it lacks the clap like 01:37:930 - here.
02:05:118 (4) - 02:02:118 (4) - this might be a slider end? just like in top diff? youre mapping vocals there, that drum sound implied to be on slider end.

Hitsounds (i removed custom hitsounds):
02:28:180 - 02:28:368 - 02:28:555 - 02:29:305 - 02:29:680 - etc what happened here?
02:24:618 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - turn off the custom hitsounds and listen.
like... youre making rhythm from claps on 02:25:368 -
but ignoring the normal-hitnormal 02:27:243 - which is referring to 02:25:743 - 02:26:493 - so I guess it might be like
02:24:993 - here might be a normal-hitnormal
02:26:868 (7) - might be a copy of 02:25:368 (3) - (add/normal, clap+whistle)

02:27:618 - from here we got 02:28:180 - 02:28:368 - 02:28:555 - suddenly
why? I mean I know Im not supposed to ask that but, explain please why did you do that in that way. Its just irregular and wrong (in my opinion).

02:59:868 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - sounds nice but, is this a proper reflection of objects? (circled 1/4s stream)
03:04:555 (3,4,5) - same thing, please explain why you picked drums there.

even after that it makes me question your logic of hitsounding, since its pretty irregular how you place them.

Yo Probox man, did you even check these things ^ ?

So in few words, please fix hitsounds, they are inconsistent (in my opinion, ill be glad if you would explain it for me)

I would actually check the other diff but it took me 2 hours to write this already.

So in conclusion I wanna say that this map is quite revolutional in some kind of meaning? Cuz after that people gonna abuse huge sv/ds spikes and others nice stuff, but as I mentioned above, I buelieve it still needs like a day or two to make shit work.

Dont take this mod personally, I Know how it feels when everyone attacking you without a reason (from ur perspective) but you CAN STILL get away with that, if you really want to - go ahead and reject everything with some vague wording w/e. The real question here is what consequences we are going to go thru after that. I mean, on a long run.
Mao
Hey there, I'm disqualifying this map to halt the ranking process as there are still many concerns from the community and for you to address these properly.

Additionally, I'll give my own opinion here as well:
[Sweet Surrender]

My main issue with this difficulty is the lack of a general concept. It's almost like you have new patterns and gimmicks every measure which results in bad pattern introduction. You should introduce concepts in a save environment first so that the player can actually learn to play them. As it is now, it's just like the whole map spikes in difficulty constantly.
I'd say most of the patterns on their own are fine but the context they are used in makes them feel incredibly forced and random.
Moreover one of the parts that bothers me specifically is the one starting at 01:36:805 - . In my opinion patterns like 01:38:305 (2,3,4) - are among the hardest to play in this difficulty, yet this is a pretty calm section in comparison.
A similar point about difficulty imbalance goes for the stream at 03:24:993 - , it's extremely hard to keep stamina on this stream and to aim it in general even though this is the much calmer outro. Having a breather in form of a slider or something would be incredibly helpful.

tl;dr The difficulty fails to introduce gimmicks properly due to the lack of a general concept which causes an imbalance in difficulty.

I think the other modders addressed these concerns really in depth already but if you still want to hear more from my side, feel free to contact me and I'll be glad to help you. Good luck o/
Topic Starter
ProfessionalBox
dq this early just makes me feel like the next time this gets qualified there will be more mods that would have come in now because people only wake up to mod when the map gets qualified thats why I was hoping it would be qualified for atleast until friday when I start to fix... whatever I guess.
jas
@nathan

02:00:618 (1,2) -

arent these patterns unrankable cuz u according to the ranking criteria 02:00:618 (1) - slider body has to disappear completely before you place 02:00:993 (2) - cuz if you delete 02:00:993 (2) - and go on 02:00:993 - then 02:00:618 (1) - is still visible

idk if you get it im bad at explaining things

anyways gl probox with the set!!
Nathan
https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/634624

yoooooo today i tried to buy a candy bar from a vending machine and it got stuck i blame this mapset give me my dollar back probox
SilverCatalyst

ProfessionalBox wrote:

dq this early just makes me feel like the next time this gets qualified there will be more mods that would have come in now because people only wake up to mod when the map gets qualified thats why I was hoping it would be qualified for atleast until friday when I start to fix... whatever I guess.
:( i feel bad for u probox i love u sm
Mikii
if alien was rank y not this 1 2


Yo Probox man, did you even check these things ^ ?
Sinnoh
It seems like there was a bit of concern on the W1nber sliders, let me just clear up why I considered them fine.


Slider tails only consider your position 36ms before the end of the slider, the rest of the tail doesn't matter.

Take 03:18:618 (1) - as an example, its tail is on 03:18:664.
664 - 618 = 46, which is how many ms the slider is.

36 / 46 = 78%, inverse it to 22%

This means you only need to hit 22% of the slider to SS it

W1nber's slider is 145 osu pixels tall when vertical

145 x 22% = 32

This means 12ms after hitting the slider, your cursor needs to be 32 osu pixels away from the head, this is a visualisation of where the slider ball is.
https://puu.sh/yrGx2/f3e6869783.png

That doesn't look too nice, but when you account that the slider ball is larger than the circle, you end up with this
https://puu.sh/yrH1a/29318c670b.png

In reality, the difference in aim is only 11 osu pixels. While the slider is intimidating, it's not nearly as bad as it looks. I already knew how slider bodies worked when nominating, and I considered it to be a fair use of the mechanic.

If you would like a more detailed explanation, Mo has you covered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYAujNMPVbY
MaridiuS

Mikii wrote:

if alien was rank y not this 1 2


Yo Probox man, did you even check these things ^ ?
can we forget about alien? thanks.
Shiro
this bothers me immensely but @handsome in the highest diff why is 01:47:305 (2,3,4) - not split like the others D:
Mir

Sinnoh wrote:

It seems like there was a bit of concern on the W1nber sliders, let me just clear up why I considered them fine.


Slider tails only consider your position 36ms before the end of the slider, the rest of the tail doesn't matter.

Take 03:18:618 (1) - as an example, its tail is on 03:18:664.
664 - 618 = 46, which is how many ms the slider is.

36 / 46 = 78%, inverse it to 22%

This means you only need to hit 22% of the slider to SS it

W1nber's slider is 145 osu pixels tall when vertical

145 x 22% = 32

This means 12ms after hitting the slider, your cursor needs to be 32 osu pixels away from the head, this is a visualisation of where the slider ball is.
https://puu.sh/yrGx2/f3e6869783.png

That doesn't look too nice, but when you account that the slider ball is larger than the circle, you end up with this
https://puu.sh/yrH1a/29318c670b.png

In reality, the difference in aim is only 11 osu pixels. While the slider is intimidating, it's not nearly as bad as it looks. I already knew how slider bodies worked when nominating, and I considered it to be a fair use of the mechanic.

If you would like a more detailed explanation, Mo has you covered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYAujNMPVbY
While in essence fair this is pretty lol mechanics-wise. I suspected something like this but after watching the then #1 play on Winber's diff this didn't seem to be the case as how the player got a 300 on the slider was quite inconsistent despite not moving and being within that range.

It checks out though, so nevermind the concerns on the 1/8 sliders (even though I really wish they weren't there because players may try to follow them to no avail).
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