Camellia - Routing

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Naxess
Camellia is a genus of flowering plants in the family Theaceae. They are found in eastern and southern Asia, from the Himalayas east to Japan and Indonesia. There are 100–300 described species, with some controversy over the exact number. There are also around 3,000 hybrids. The genus was named by Linnaeus after the Jesuit botanist Georg Joseph Kamel, who worked in the Philippines and described a species of camellia (although Linnaeus did not refer to Kamel's account when discussing the genus).[1] Camellias are famous throughout East Asia; they are known as cháhuā (茶花, 'tea flower') in Chinese, tsubaki (椿) in Japanese, dongbaek-kkot (동백꽃) in Korean, and as hoa trà or hoa chè in Vietnamese.

Metadata: Official website,
what is supposed to be the index, but currently down for maintenance.
Voli
The implementation of the spacing concept on the top diff can use a lot of work imo

General spacing concerns / lack of contrast

I feel like the spacing concept of this map wasn't thought out thoroughly enough. Considering the high-bpm nature of the song, note-to-object jumps should be mapped with a lot of care because they can very easily disrupt the movement in your patterns and generally feel very clunky.

An example of this is just when the map starts out at 00:01:957 (2,1) - . While 00:02:061 (1) - is indeed a high pitched sound and could be emphasized over the rest of the pattern, the angle and immense amount of spacing (for this bpm) just make the pattern feel overspaced in its entirety. What doesn't help is that the player has to make yet another jumpy movement towards 00:02:165 (2) - with a very sharp/harsh angle, while the pitch only lowers here.

Another example would be 00:05:395 (1,2,3,4,5) -. The spacing is the same over the entire pattern making the entire thing feel clunky and lacking in contrast. The sounds in the music aren't properly distinguished because you use the same huge spacing everywhere. Patterns with similar issues include:

  1. 00:33:728 (1,2,3,4) - spacing is monotonous while the music clearly indicates a different pitch on every note (down>up)
  2. 00:39:179 - ^
  3. 00:40:603 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2) - spacing gets larger every time but the actual sound that differentiates from the rest (00:40:811 (3) - ) isn't expressed in any way
  4. 00:52:686 (1,2,3,4,5) - vs 00:53:936 (3,4) - why do these patterns have the same spacing? Also 00:54:457 (2,3,1) - isn't really a good idea since the player has to make a VERY jerky right/left movement when nothing in the music supports this (as the melodic sound actually fades here)
  5. 01:42:061 (2,3,4,5) - same issue again, monotonous spacing even though the pitch ups?
  6. 01:50:082 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - ^
  7. 01:52:061 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - not only does this completely ignore any spacing concept that would relate to the music before in favor of some wide angled symmetric pattern, the transition to 01:52:895 (1,2,3,4) - also feels super clunky because the song's bpm wasn't taken into account while creating this pattern
  8. There are a lot of other examples of patterns with similar issues throughout the map.


Another reason I feel the spacing concept wasn't thought through enough is the amount of spacing you use on the ''transitioning'' notes (e.g. 00:01:957 (2) - 00:05:915 (4) - 00:12:582 (5) - ) is consistently high enough that they feel like jumps on their own considering the bpm. Some more extreme examples of this are 00:23:415 (4) - 00:29:249 (5) - 00:49:353 (2) - and a lot of others throughout the latter part of the map. These notes often don't really ''belong'' to any special sound in the music and their general purpose is keeping the rhythm natural and constant. However, the way you placed these combined with the song's bpm makes them stand out in an uncanny way contributing to my problem with the spacing concept.

Lastly, patterns like 00:52:686 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -, 01:16:228 (4,5,6,7) - and, as i said before, 01:52:895 (1,2,3,4) - feel too bluntly executed. The harshness of these angles is immensely contrasting with the slider patterns surrounding them.

tl;dr - I feel you should respect the song's extremely fast nature a lot more when creating patterns with super sharp angles/high spacing. As a result, I deem the difficulty unsatisfactory as of now.

If you wanna discuss, feel free to pm in game too of course.
Shiirn
i agree the map isnt ready for rank lol
Smokeman
short cancer mod before you rank this (might be too late)

comfort

01:38:728 (1,2) - you can make them overlap better just like 01:37:478 (1,2,1,2) - ot literaly any other slider you did in the map
01:48:311 (1,2,3) - This stacking concept looks out of place imo. Have 01:49:353 (3) - be stacked under 01:48:728 (2) - not 01:48:311 (1) - (do you feel the stack?). Tbh just recheck the stacking on the slider-ends of most sliders. There is a method to get them stacking even after loding up the map (or atleast better than how it is now oof)
01:52:895 (1,2,3,4) - "Just gonna grab this one out random". You do focus to represent different sounds in the song in different and unique ways in context of the map (see: 00:16:853 (1,1) - or 00:19:040 (1) - ). But here you expect a simple back and forth to do the trick. You have strong beats on 01:52:895 (1,2,4) - and a weak one 01:53:103 (3) - tho the spacing doesnt indicate that. Since this such a fast song players will most likely not even feel the "slight" difference in spacing you put there hence why i recommend to you to make it more noticable... is not 01:21:228 (2,3,4,5,1) - all over again. 288BPMm is pretty fast oke? https://puu.sh/xyiMh/31e7cfbdf0.png
01:32:478 (1,2,3,4,1) - The spacing on this feels totally out of place in regard to 01:22:895 (4,5,6,7) - and how these were mapped in this manner on really distinct sounds. You have some kinda of scracth going on here so maybe sum sliders would fit it better cause sircles are harsher to hit than circles :s
00:01:957 (2) - Why not put this here https://puu.sh/xyhAN/bc6ece2213.png so its less cancer to play from the start ?
00:27:061 (1,2,3) - this is 1/6th. You could put sliders if you are scared of the 1/6th. Oke i thought you were following the piano thingy cause you put a note on 00:26:853 (3) - . If you follow the piano melody then please follow the piano melody dont just switch to drums cause you scared of 1/6th cause there are some drums here aswell 00:26:645 - so alkcöasdlkv. :[
01:21:853 (2) - this is really pedantic: https://puu.sh/xyibo/3178ef9dcd.png. 01:21:645 (1,2) - having as it is right now would imply some continuity with the sounds in the song from slider 1 to 2, BUT 01:21:645 (1) - is more of a buil-up for the climatic 01:21:853 (2) - instead. The mapping just doesnt reflect the sounds int he music very well and i am not gonna hammer this on every occurance cause w/e.
01:29:561 (1,2) - these and 01:30:117 (3,4) - these shouldnt be on similar visual spacings. Make them more distinct cause this is a pretty heavy change from the usualy shenanigans the song does
01:37:061 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - This shoudl totally be decreasing in spacing/speed just like the song does on all its layers xd
01:38:728 (1,2) - Make this shape flater than 01:37:478 (1) - 01:38:415 (2) - cause 01:37:478 (1,2,1,2) - is following this wierd vocal line and the other one is the piano. Both flow into eachother nicely in the song but they still sound distinctivly different
01:45:707 (1,2,3,4) - you cheaky Bir running out of space. 01:46:020 (4) - Is slightly off screen and imo you should have this not directly in the corner. https://puu.sh/xyiGz/defd5b4049.png Tbh should've noticed when the slider end node/anchor was off the grid aswell xd
01:25:395 (1,1) - woudl really ctr+g these. The buildup sounds like it comes from one place and doesnt go up and down :S


Waanted to keep this short but i ended up just posting down thing i found bothering on a sightread and some time in the editor.

IMO The difficulty of mapping this song is in being able to represent all the different kind of sounds in a proper manner. After that you can think about visual consistency and all that jazz.

BG in 2k17 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/797681 lul


Edit: uhm didnt see this getting popped... so i might drop a full check when i am not sleepy and you want me to :S
pkhg
hihi

reverb
00:39:770 (1,2,1) - not being mapped like 00:40:603 (1,2,3) - even if the music hasnt changed at all triggers me
01:14:249 (1) - idk why you mapped this with a slider. pitch gets higher gradually so using circles and gradually increase spacing as the pitch does makes more sense to me
01:37:478 (1) - higher sv for every nc'd slider of this section would be cool ya
01:52:790 (4) - move it to x330y113 lol
_handholding
Team Rocket popping maps at the speed of light
Topic Starter
Mir

Voli wrote:

The implementation of the spacing concept on the top diff can use a lot of work imo

General spacing concerns / lack of contrast

I feel like the spacing concept of this map wasn't thought out thoroughly enough. Considering the high-bpm nature of the song, note-to-object jumps should be mapped with a lot of care because they can very easily disrupt the movement in your patterns and generally feel very clunky.

An example of this is just when the map starts out at 00:01:957 (2,1) - . While 00:02:061 (1) - is indeed a high pitched sound and could be emphasized over the rest of the pattern, the angle and immense amount of spacing (for this bpm) just make the pattern feel overspaced in its entirety. What doesn't help is that the player has to make yet another jumpy movement towards 00:02:165 (2) - with a very sharp/harsh angle, while the pitch only lowers here.

Another example would be 00:05:395 (1,2,3,4,5) -. The spacing is the same over the entire pattern making the entire thing feel clunky and lacking in contrast. The sounds in the music aren't properly distinguished because you use the same huge spacing everywhere. Patterns with similar issues include:

  1. 00:33:728 (1,2,3,4) - spacing is monotonous while the music clearly indicates a different pitch on every note (down>up)
  2. 00:39:179 - ^
  3. 00:40:603 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2) - spacing gets larger every time but the actual sound that differentiates from the rest (00:40:811 (3) - ) isn't expressed in any way
  4. 00:52:686 (1,2,3,4,5) - vs 00:53:936 (3,4) - why do these patterns have the same spacing? Also 00:54:457 (2,3,1) - isn't really a good idea since the player has to make a VERY jerky right/left movement when nothing in the music supports this (as the melodic sound actually fades here)
  5. 01:42:061 (2,3,4,5) - same issue again, monotonous spacing even though the pitch ups?
  6. 01:50:082 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - ^
  7. 01:52:061 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - not only does this completely ignore any spacing concept that would relate to the music before in favor of some wide angled symmetric pattern, the transition to 01:52:895 (1,2,3,4) - also feels super clunky because the song's bpm wasn't taken into account while creating this pattern
  8. There are a lot of other examples of patterns with similar issues throughout the map.


Another reason I feel the spacing concept wasn't thought through enough is the amount of spacing you use on the ''transitioning'' notes (e.g. 00:01:957 (2) - 00:05:915 (4) - 00:12:582 (5) - ) is consistently high enough that they feel like jumps on their own considering the bpm. Some more extreme examples of this are 00:23:415 (4) - 00:29:249 (5) - 00:49:353 (2) - and a lot of others throughout the latter part of the map. These notes often don't really ''belong'' to any special sound in the music and their general purpose is keeping the rhythm natural and constant. However, the way you placed these combined with the song's bpm makes them stand out in an uncanny way contributing to my problem with the spacing concept.

Lastly, patterns like 00:52:686 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -, 01:16:228 (4,5,6,7) - and, as i said before, 01:52:895 (1,2,3,4) - feel too bluntly executed. The harshness of these angles is immensely contrasting with the slider patterns surrounding them.

tl;dr - I feel you should respect the song's extremely fast nature a lot more when creating patterns with super sharp angles/high spacing. As a result, I deem the difficulty unsatisfactory as of now.

If you wanna discuss, feel free to pm in game too of course.
To be quite honest with you I don't think what you're "suggesting" is even feasible to the map and the way it's structured. You actually didn't give me any suggestions at all, you just pointed out everything you thought was wrong and left it there. Your "mod" is largely useless to me for that reason. What I think you want me to do is:

- Lower spacing of all the "transition notes" despite several of them having sounds and most of them follow the pitch even the first one you mentioned has lower spacing on 2 than 1 yet for some reason you ignore that aspect. Also the sharp angles are all intentional since I'm introducing them early, it's called "concept introduction" and that is why there are sharp angles here. If I lowered them to be like https://i.imgur.com/HUN4R04.png for 00:05:395 (1,2,3,4,5) - or https://i.imgur.com/mwQ6j6T.jpg for 01:30:811 (1,2,3,4,5) - not only would it not represent the intensity but it would have a very noticeable drop in pacing that I feel is completely unjustified considering the intensity of the song. That said, I lowered some of the spacing of transition notes that seemed a little too over-the-top while still making them play acceptably.

- Vary spacing on streams that consist of 4 notes with similar intensity based on the individual pitches. That would look and play horribly and not even be consistent with the other patterns I used for the piano in every other instance that was increased/decreased in spacing OVERALL to account for differences in pitches eg 00:33:728 (1,2,3,4,1) - is staying relatively mid intensity 00:38:728 (1,2,3,4,1) - is higher intensity so it's obviously spaced more than 00:03:728 (1,2,3,4) - etc and for what you want me to do: https://i.imgur.com/baNCoIu.png 00:10:395 (1,2,3,4) - and https://i.imgur.com/n9ANbRE.png for 00:12:061 (1,2,3,4) - etc etc like this really doesn't matter to me, no player will really care about the intricacies of each individual piano pitch at this bpm they will more rather look at the overall intensity of the piano and relate that to the intensity of the map in that moment which is exactly what I'm doing. 00:33:728 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5) - the spacing of the star is fairly uniform so I can contrast that with 00:34:457 (3,4,5,1) - which is much higher intensity relative to the star of which is mapped to relatively stagnant piano.

- 01:14:561 (2,3,4,5) - These have to go, because for some reason they contrast too much when I used patterns like this everywhere and contrast here is the whole point of using them. Spacing is even relative to pitch as seen with 01:16:228 (4,5,6,7) - 01:17:270 (1,2,3,4) - etc etc, there are sharp angles on transition notes like 01:30:811 (1,2,3) - because there is a vocal on the 2 and a triple would be underselling the overall intensity of the song here and be a noticeable pacing drop for stronger sounds. 01:32:478 (1,2,3,4) - sharp angles 01:35:082 (2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - sharp angles etc etc etc it's all structured to be this way because if they weren't sharp angles and all flowy it wouldn't represent the intensity at all and the pacing would be so low and honestly boring. They've been introduced from the start of the map and have been used in moderation to emphasize specific points of the song of which I can list you every single one (I give examples at the end) and they work as intended and play perfectly fine. I can understand if you think they're overspaced but consider the whole map before picking at the individual patterns, there is a reason for the spacing I used and that is because if they were any lower spaced you'd have too much contrast in movement and end up emphasizing sounds that don't deserve it - thus I opted to keep spacing and flow fairly uniform and change them when there are differences in sound examples being 01:52:061 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - which plays absolutely fine by the way - nobody's ever complained about this. It has circular movement leading into intuitive sharp angle movement, so there's really no problem with how it plays. Even at this bpm. The spacing is uniform until 01:52:895 (1,2,3,4) - where the song noticeably spikes in intensity just like I mapped it to. I made some slight adjustments to the emphasis but the sharp angles stay, I won't change those.

- 00:40:603 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - For some reason don't emphasize the last note despite triples fundamentally being used to do exactly that, and again I'm not going for the individual sounds I'm going for the overall volume which if you notice, increases.

Overall I feel like you didn't really consider the context of the whole map and the entire idea I was going for and instead focused on the little itty bitty details that at this bpm nobody will care about. Your claims that I didn't think this diff out are honestly insulting to me because the entire reason I mapped this was to make a more playable version of Shiirn's (no offense Shiirn) and to fulfill one of the goals I had when starting to learn to map. Also a lot of the sharper angle stuff plays better than anything I did trying to apply your points and that proves already I considered the bpm and all of the flow usage before applying it structurally throughout the whole map. So no, Voli, I have put thought into my map. You didn't even give me any suggestions or anything to work off of - no ultimatum, no "goal" for the map to work towards to remove your veto. You basically came in, said "this, this, this, this is bad" then vetoed. While I don't dislike the veto system, when it's used like this it really looks stupid.

At this bpm prioritizing playability is key and if I have to make some sacrifices to song expression like not mapping every single piano pitch to it's individual spacing then fuck it I will.

EDIT: I adjusted some of the transition notes I found that were a bit overdone so hopefully that's something.
EDIT 2: Reworded the last bit cuz I wrote this at like 4am and I missed things:

- I did some adjustments overall to emphasis so check that if you can, most notably during the first kiai and 00:46:645
- I lowered spacing on 01:50:082 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - as you suggested

There, things. I had to guess most of what you wanted - obviously - but hopefully this is at least somewhat more acceptable to you.
egg and cheese
The "Thinking" diff actually has no longer any song representation when looking from a player's perspective. Due to the nerfs in the more intense parts, the map essentially feels like the exact same all over. When playing a map, shouldn't I be able to FEEL the difference?

btw reverb was fine with the intensity part, the sharp angles actually felt like they made sense cause of the songs many many different sounds all over the place. don't see why it has to be changed.
Voli
mir altered some patterns and explained his intents behind the kiai jumps. I understand them a bit better now.

I still have my doubts and I think many of the kiai jump patterns are borderline acceptable/could be improved upon either by making the transitions toward these patterns more natural or changing the nature of the patterns themselves. That said, I don't feel it's fair to keep holding a veto on the map for now. We got some external opinions and they differ quite a bit. For that reason, I do expect the nominating parties to look over these points of discussion as well before pushing it.

gl!

20:25 Mir: hi
20:25 Mir: wanna talk or busy?
20:26 Voli: ya we can
20:26 Mir: so before i continue making assumptions can you state directly what the problem you have with routing is
20:26 Voli: yeah
20:26 Mir: i feel like that would go miles in coming to some conclusion
20:27 Voli: the problem is that i feel like you didnt take the song's super fast nature into account while making your patterns
20:27 Voli: and as a result
20:27 Voli: the jumps feel way too overbearing in comparison to the slider pattenrs you use
20:28 Mir: could you give me a few examples and perhaps suggestions on how i could alleviate that
20:28 Voli: yea
20:28 Voli: but the thing is
20:28 Voli: that it's not just one or two patterns but rather a structural thing across the entire map
20:28 Voli: but
20:28 Voli: lets see
20:29 Voli: 01:20:395 (3,4,5,1) -
20:29 Voli: vs
20:29 Voli: 01:21:228 (2,3,4,5) -
20:29 Voli: the transition seems very jarring
20:30 Voli: because sliders play more naturally/flowy by nature too, theyre more forgiving etc etc
20:30 Voli: and there is lower spacing on them
20:30 Voli: 01:21:228 (2,3,4,5) - while this is a super harsh point to point up/down movement
20:31 Mir: the reverse sets up that movement already 01:20:915 (1) -
20:31 Mir: + gives leniency to begin the pattern
20:31 Voli: its also a bit hard for me to give you something to alleviate it because my opinion is that those up/down movements shouldnt even exist
20:31 Voli: with how you mapped the rest
20:31 Mir: + there's been sharp angles all throughout the previous parts to introduce this climax
20:31 Mir: 00:12:895 (1,2,3,4) - this is one of the first patterns
20:32 Mir: the player should know by here there will be patterns like this later
20:32 Voli: well you introduced that kind of spacing there sure
20:32 Voli: but that doesnt make the transitions any less jarring
20:32 Voli: between your slidermapping and those jumps
20:33 Mir: the transition was supposed to be jarring because the song rapidly intensifies there
20:33 Voli: i feel you just shouldnt use those
20:33 Voli: wide angled jumps/back forth movements in this way
20:33 Voli: on this bpm
20:33 Mir: but they play fine
20:33 Mir: it's not that they play badly or uncomfortably or jarring there must be some other reason
20:33 Mir: because everyone capable of holding a combo on this map has not complained about those being too hard to play
20:34 Mir: in fact most fc them easily
20:34 Mir: i mean if it's of any consolation toy 1 missed the map somewhere randomly and fc'd everything on the second try
20:34 Mir: so there's nothing wrong with how the map plays
20:35 Voli: come on now =.=
20:35 Voli: a top player fcs it so there's no problem
20:35 Voli: thats not rly a valid arumgnet lol
20:35 Mir: i said other people that can hold a combo fc it too
20:36 Mir: hightec fc'd some of it
20:36 Mir: woey fc'd all of it
20:36 Mir: kaifin fc'd all of it
20:36 Mir: i can even pass the map if i were still proficient with mouse and not in limbo between that and tablet
20:37 Voli: its not about the map b eing passable or not lol
20:37 Voli: i mean
20:37 Voli: a map doesnthave to be well excecuted to be passed or fc'd
20:37 Mir: but you said they're too jarring when i've never gotten any complaints about their usage
20:37 Mir: in fact quite the opposite, they play well enough and represent the intensity appropriately
20:37 Voli: the kiai jumps dont fit the context at all imo
20:37 Voli: and the way you transition towards them doesnt either
20:38 Mir: so how should i transition to them
20:38 Mir: i'm already setting up a reverse movement + giving a 1/4 reverse for leniency
20:38 Mir: i don't know how else to make the pattern easier to handle
20:39 Voli: well 1. get rid of the sudden humongous spacing compared to all your slider patterns 2. make your angles more bearable for an alt map
20:39 Voli: that's my take on it
20:40 Mir: https://i.imgur.com/QzcoLvr.png ?
20:40 Voli: wheres that o.o
20:40 Mir: i just made it
20:40 Voli: yea i mean
20:40 Voli: in the place of which pattern
20:40 Mir: 01:21:124 -
20:40 Voli: that seems a lot more resonable
20:40 Voli: reasonable
20:40 Mir: ok time to play with spacing
20:41 Mir: https://i.imgur.com/nUSekLw.png ?
20:42 Voli: you upped it again?
20:42 Mir: not as high as before
20:42 Mir: but yes i upped it a bit
20:42 Voli: yknow the thing is, those angles already make those notes stand out more than enough
20:42 Voli: so
20:42 Voli: putting that kind of huge spacing too
20:42 Voli: just makes it overbearing
20:42 Voli: since even with the small spacing from your first example
20:42 Voli: you still have to make a super snappy movement
20:43 Voli: cuz of the bpm
20:44 Mir: i'm inclined to disagree because despite the bpm the spacing increase is backed up by the increasing intensity of the song
20:44 Mir: i can nerf it slightly but not to the degree of the first example
20:45 Mir: around the second example is as far as i'm willing to take it
20:46 Voli: i'd have to see it in practice to rly be able to judge it accurately
20:46 Voli: but
20:46 Voli: chances are that the issue will still be there
20:46 Mir: there honestly isn't an issue to begin with imo
20:47 Mir: the spacing increase is exactly as the song's intensity increases
20:47 Mir: it's as sudden as the song is
20:47 Voli: the = my
20:47 Voli: its still my opinion after all
20:47 Voli: 'not a fact
20:48 Voli: but well thats what were allowed to do as bns if we rly disagree with the map
20:48 Mir: lol
20:49 Voli: like
20:49 Mir: so unless i remove all the sharp angled stuff
20:49 Mir: we can't agree?
20:50 Mir: every testplayer and modder so far has understood the relationship of intensity = spacing
20:50 Mir: the sharp angled stuff is already a concept in the map
20:51 Mir: it's used all over the place, not just there
20:51 Voli: but hear me out
20:51 Voli: spacing used on sliders
20:51 Voli: is something completely different than on notes
20:51 Mir: yes but i already showed you 00:12:895 (1,2,3,4) -
20:51 Mir: 00:13:936 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - as well
20:51 Voli: and since the rest of your map is
20:52 Voli: pretty much an alt map
20:52 Mir: 00:34:457 (3,4,5) - here is also some sharp angled stuff
20:52 Mir: 00:53:103 (5,6,1) - etc
20:52 Voli: 00:13:936 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - yeah i think i also complained about this one
20:52 Voli: that was one of the patterns i felt like you weren't respecting the bpm with
20:53 Mir: that's another pattern people often fc lol
20:53 Mir: that respects the bpm as much as it can
20:53 Mir: it starts off angled and small then increases to a high angular spacing into the slider
20:53 Mir: it's also all in one direction which makes it quite easy to hit
20:54 Mir: it sets up some of the other stuff
20:54 Mir: just like 00:12:895 (1,2,3,4) - sets up variable angle sharp angled movement
20:55 Voli: fair enough
20:55 Voli: 00:13:936 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -
20:55 Voli: yeah
20:55 Voli: i dont think this one is a big issue after all
20:56 Voli: but pretty much all the kiai jumps
20:56 Voli: x.x
20:56 Mir: they're hard but i think they're justified in that difficulty
20:56 Mir: i've set them up relative to the song as much as i could
20:57 Mir: in sections previous and after
20:57 Voli: well at this point
20:57 Voli: we're pretty much just saying
20:57 Voli: >i dont think this is justified
20:57 Voli: >well but i think its justified for the song
20:58 Mir: yes i think it's justified for the song, but why don't you think it's justified
20:58 Mir: is it just the spacing?
20:58 Voli: i've said it
20:58 Mir: the angles?
20:58 Mir: both of which i've already introduced
20:58 Mir: and the player is already aware they will be used as a concept
20:58 Mir: the contrast is too high?
20:58 Voli: 1. the spacing is humongous in contrast to all your slider patterns here
20:59 Mir: the song contrasts itself quite highly there too
20:59 Voli: making the transitions too jarring
20:59 Mir: you would think that but the angles help the spacing rather than hurt it
20:59 Voli: 2. i dont feel you even need this spacing to emphasize what you desired
20:59 Voli: as the movement is already enough with smaller spacing
20:59 Mir: a back and forth movement is much easier to keep consistent than if i had done more wider angles
20:59 Voli: which would go better anyways with the rest of the section
20:59 Mir: it really isn't with the sv i'm using
21:01 Mir: if i lowered it any further the pacing would be shor
21:01 Mir: shot*
21:01 Mir: it'd feel the same as the rest of the kiai because despite lowering the spacing the speed would be the same
21:01 Mir: and there would be no contrast, unfitting of how the song is contrasting
21:01 Mir: such easy low-spacing back and forths just won't work here
21:02 Voli: well
21:02 Voli: thats considering those jumps have to be back and forths
21:02 Mir: if they were flowy jumps they wouldn't contrast cuz the rest of the section is flowy
21:02 Mir: so yes they do have to be back and forths
21:02 Mir: and i set them up for that reason
21:03 Voli: 01:32:478 (1,2,3,4) -
21:03 Voli: whats this anyways
21:03 Voli: it uses the same movement as the strong melodic sounds
21:03 Mir: supposed to follow the record scratching but yeah
21:03 Voli: but they aren't actually there here
21:03 Mir: i think i might change that
21:04 Mir: i was thinking https://i.imgur.com/niI34lZ.png
21:04 Voli: that seems cool
21:04 Mir: cuz they're not as sharp anyways
21:05 Voli: idk
21:05 Voli: can we ask like
21:05 Voli: a third (unbiased) opinion from a bn
21:05 Voli: on the kiai jumps
21:05 Voli: i mean
21:05 Mir: if i find one that doesn't hate this song sure
21:05 Voli: i kinda get what you're saying/going for
21:05 Voli: more now
21:05 Voli: with the contrast against flowy sections
21:06 Voli: but i still feel those patterns are just too unnatural with this song
21:06 Voli: and with the rest of the sections
21:06 Voli: section*
21:06 Mir: who do you suggest we ask
21:06 Voli: hmm lemme c
21:06 Mir: i'll upload the swapped out record scratching pattern
21:08 Voli: but
21:08 Voli: you said you were going to play with the spacing earlier, right
21:08 Voli: are you still doing this or
21:08 Voli: did you scrap the idea now
21:08 Mir: i can still play with it if i have to
21:08 Mir: but i would rather not
21:08 Mir: i feel like the spacing i have it at is the maximum allowed spacing
21:09 Mir: anything further would be too much
21:09 Mir: at least imo lol
21:09 Voli: trying to look for someone who's a bit more experienced with higher difficulty maps
21:09 Voli: idk
21:10 Voli: how about lasse
21:10 Mir: sure i guess
21:10 Mir: he's on the set though, idk if that counts as bias
21:10 Voli: oh he is?
21:10 Voli: lmao
21:10 Mir: could ask chaoslitz maybe
21:10 Voli: did you already ask his opinion
21:10 Voli: on your diff
21:10 Voli: what did he think (if you did)
21:10 Mir: i didn't
21:10 Mir: i just asked his opinion on the spread
21:10 Mir: i don't really know what he thinks of the topdiff lol
21:11 Mir: and if i did ask i think i forgot his opinion
21:12 Voli: kk we can ask chaoslitz
21:12 Voli: and maybe okorin
21:12 Mir: okorin wants nothing to do with the song lol
21:13 Voli: rly lol
21:13 Voli: i got it from him looking at it
21:13 Mir: i already asked him to check spread and he rejected my offer cuz of shiirn's ordeal
21:13 Voli: :shrug:
21:13 Mir: thinking
21:13 Mir: so he did look after all
21:13 Mir: idk you can ask him if you really wanna
21:13 Voli: he looked at it briefly and i saw it
21:13 Voli: then i pmed ''wtf routing again''
21:13 Voli: and he linked me this without saying anything
21:13 Mir: sounds like oko
21:14 Voli: well
21:14 Voli: i said unbiased
21:14 Voli: so that definitely doesn't seem like it'd be a good idea
21:14 Mir: shrug
21:15 Mir: chaoslitz isn't online rip
21:15 Voli: rip
21:16 Mir: i could ask plaudible
21:16 Mir: he likes alt maps
21:16 Mir: i don't think he's seen routing yet
21:16 Voli: yea sure
21:16 Voli: tbh any opinion is valuable either way
21:16 Voli: so the more the merrier
21:16 Voli: cuz rn its just your word vs mine
21:16 Mir: here's where a bancho group chat would be super useful
21:17 Voli: and that doesnt rly lead to anything
21:17 Mir: yeah i can see that
21:17 Mir: he seems afk
21:17 Mir: hnnng
21:18 Mir: o i could ask doormat if he's not playing skyrim
21:21 Voli: writing a bit of text so they can see the case more clearly
21:21 Mir: i wrote two lines woops
21:22 Mir: https://i.imgur.com/kk6H1cm.png
21:22 Voli: ya i gave him https://voli.s-ul.eu/u5njkj3n.png
21:23 Voli: notepad quality
21:23 Mir: notepad :weary:
21:23 Mir: https://i.imgur.com/1h9NxNf.png
21:23 Mir: i got this
21:23 Mir: idk what he gave you
21:23 Mir: oh it contains errors
21:23 Mir: wtf
21:24 Voli: it doesn t work
21:24 Voli: the imgur
21:24 Mir: yea
21:24 Mir: https://i.imgur.com/pR8REcC.png
21:24 Mir: wqhat the FUCK
21:24 Mir: why is it giving me errors??
21:24 Mir: https://puu.sh/xzLdg/27318b9f73.png
21:25 Mir: when you have to change to puush e.e
21:28 Voli: lol
21:29 Voli: yea he's telling me he generally thinks its fine but if anything some of the jump patterns could use nerfing
21:29 Voli: 01:17:270 (1,2,3,4) -
21:29 Mir: i can agree with that
21:30 Mir: puush is dying now i can't show you what i ended up with aa
21:30 Mir: lemme just upload it
21:31 Mir: done
21:33 Voli: seems more reasonable
21:33 Voli: 01:52:478 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) -
21:33 Voli: dont you think you can make the transition between those patterns better
21:33 Voli: lemme try something
21:33 Mir: i'm all for suggestions
21:33 Mir: i was going for something like 00:52:686 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) -
21:33 Mir: except with a flow change
21:38 Voli: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9088952
21:38 Voli: perhaps a movement like this
21:38 Voli: so you keep the patterning from 01:52:165 (2,3,4,1,2,3,4) -
21:38 Voli: instead of switching to a wide angled square
21:39 Mir: hmm
21:39 Mir: it's actually really hard to see what you're doing
21:39 Mir: that might actually play worse though
21:39 Mir: since that 3,4,1,2 movement is really awkward
21:40 Voli: https://voli.s-ul.eu/7M6vFsna.png
21:40 Voli: (reversed)
21:40 Voli: imo it expressed it quite well actually
21:40 Voli: 01:52:895 (1,2) - >strong sounds
21:40 Voli: 01:53:104 (3) - transitional note with less spacing
21:40 Voli: 01:53:208 (4) - more again
21:40 Mir: ah i see
21:40 Mir: sec i misunderstood the pattern entirely
21:41 Mir: ideally it should start on the left i think
21:42 Mir: hmm
21:42 Voli: yes, i agree
21:42 Mir: or not
21:42 Voli: i think it should
21:42 Voli: because
21:42 Mir: how about
21:42 Voli: you're going left>right
21:42 Voli: already
21:42 Voli: and then left again would be the most predictable thing
21:42 Voli: instead of left>right>right
21:42 Mir: right
21:42 Voli: thats why i switched it
21:42 Mir: so how about this https://puu.sh/xzLXD/876b5224d5.png
21:42 Mir: lower spacing
21:42 Mir: tho
21:43 Mir: idk why i put it so high, probably was consequence of symmetry lol
21:43 Voli: that movement is probably fine but the reason why i put it below is so that the patterns are more separated
21:44 Voli: instead of intertwined, messing wth the transition
21:44 Mir: hmm
21:44 Voli: but
21:44 Voli: i guess you want more of a back/forth movement
21:44 Voli: than a criscross one like i did
21:44 Mir: i do kinda want more back and forth
21:45 Mir: 00:12:895 (1,2,3,4) - kinda like this i think
21:45 Mir: which is a crisscross but
21:45 Mir: a more back and forth one than what you had
21:45 Mir: in fact i could just copy that
21:46 Mir: https://puu.sh/xzM68/4cbc5ebee0.png
21:46 Mir: am i literally retarded or did i just make the same thing you did and rotate it 45 degrees
21:47 Mir: i think i should be diagnosed legally retarded yeah what you did is fine
21:48 Voli: lmao
21:48 Voli: the one you copied can work
21:48 Voli: i mean its better than what you had before imo
21:48 Mir: i asked hightec
21:48 Voli: i think its still better to separate the patter nentirely
21:49 Mir: he said it'd break his wrist
21:49 Voli: instead of stacking
21:49 Mir: so back to the drawing board
21:49 Voli: cuz you have the entire lower part oft he editor basically
21:49 Voli: free
21:49 Mir: yeah but the movement out of 3,4
21:49 Mir: points left and up
21:49 Mir: ideally it should point down
21:49 Mir: so what i did was just flip the whole thing
21:50 Voli: l;ol i see
21:50 Mir: https://puu.sh/xzMhg/ebc2202073.png
21:50 Mir: how's this
21:50 Voli: could you screenshot the alt pattern
21:50 Voli: too
21:50 Mir: the alt one?
21:50 Voli: yea like the symmetrical 1
21:50 Voli: cuz you flipped it right
21:51 Mir: yea
21:51 Mir: it's just ctrl+j
21:51 Voli: o
21:51 Mir: i needed a better angle
21:52 Voli: that might actually work well
21:52 Voli: what you did
21:52 Voli: its more of a rotational flow
21:52 Mir: yeah
21:53 Mir: i'll chalk it down to variation and circumstance
21:53 Mir: and call it a day
21:53 Mir: was there anything else
21:54 Voli: i'll lift the veto on your map btw, i dont think its needed anymore at this point since the person who you're gonna ask to qual this will hopefully address the issue aswell
21:54 Voli: since its in the thread
21:54 Mir: yea
21:55 Mir: it's hobbes btw he'll probably read the logs and make a decision
Topic Starter
Mir
Summary:
- Nerfed 01:17:270 (1,2,3,4) -
- Adjusted 01:52:061 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) -

That's about it.

Thanks Voli~
Avena
!summon Priti
Priti.exe has not been found
!summon Avena
Shitmapper.exe has been downloaded.

ANYWAYS
This isn't going to be a conventional mod, just a general concern post.
First of all, the extremely generous (And fairly inconsistent) use of new combos + HP6 will just cause the HP Bar to drain super fast and make each miss very painful.
Also, OD9.3 is super harsh for such map, in general the map is overly harsh but we'll talk about that later.
00:45:499 - Lil' forced break by accident, probably because of an offset change.

The way I see this map is just "Let's map normally, but faster!", it looks like your every day map, but it's just much faster, if you'd take this and slow it down by x0.5, You'd just have a normal Insane difficulty.
Which doesn't work, at all.
The thing you need to realize when mapping such dense songs is how hard it can get to constantly click notes while having to aim so precisely.
The map simply starts with pretty calm beats, and you already start using insane spacing, even though the song doesn't call for anything like that.
If the flow was linear/circular, I'd totally get it, it's a way to introduce the map's concepts to the player, but you're using a lot of sharp snap patterns such as 00:01:645 (1,2,1,2) - Which just feel extremely unnatural compared to the relaxed nature of the song on this part.
Then we get to this nice thing 00:06:783 (1,2,3) - It makes sense, but considering this looks like the spacing previously used and how high the OD is, It's nearly impossible to hit full 300s on this, most players will just read this as an off-rhythm 1/4 pattern or just won't be able to understand it.
The use of 1/8 gaps with big jumps like 00:16:853 (1,2) - causes very awkward snapping and really unfun movement. It becomes even more weird when there is nothing supporting such strange placement in the song like 00:18:520 (2) -
Some of your patterns just don't feel like they even try to make sense, and the placement is completely random, for example this pattern 00:35:325 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - Just doesn't seem to follow anything, not to mention that spamming NCs like that makes it really weird for players to pass, and can cause a sightread player to instantly fail the map. If you actually want to make this reasonable, you can use spacing that follows a certain logic and seperate the combos to combos of 3s to indicate the usage of 1/3
And then we get to the kiai, and oh boy, the kiai.
The use of back and forth 1/4 patterns is just
just
why.
The whole difficulty feels unnatural and awkward anyways, by implementing those patterns you just emphasize on the fact that you don't want your players to have fun.
I get it, the song is intense, but the sounds aren't abnormal or inconsistent, they are pretty much a linear intense row of 1/4s.
So why not map them in a linear way, like the song implies?
The player has so much to worry about in this difficulty, from irregular beats, 1/6 bursts and generally intense gameplay, you now force them to have yet another concern, and that's snapping in patterns that don't feel good to play at all and don't actually follow any sort of structure or legitimate flow.
Yet another "unfun" thing that happens, is this pattern 01:32:061 (3,4) - It kicks extremely fast, and then you are forced to make a movement opposite to what the slider leniency implies, which causes in a seemingly random, super fast and unnatural snap movement.

I'm sorry, but this is far from a fun map, it uses tons of interesting concepts (Most of them are taken from Shiirn's version) but you just cluttered a crazy amount of gameplay elements which don't compliment each other into this single 116 second mess.

my 11pm english is bad
Topic Starter
Mir

Avena wrote:

!summon Priti
Priti.exe has not been found
!summon Avena
Shitmapper.exe has been downloaded.

ANYWAYS
This isn't going to be a conventional mod, just a general concern post.
First of all, the extremely generous (And fairly inconsistent) use of new combos + HP6 will just cause the HP Bar to drain super fast and make each miss very painful.
Also, OD9.3 is super harsh for such map, in general the map is overly harsh but we'll talk about that later.
00:45:499 - Lil' forced break by accident, probably because of an offset change.

The way I see this map is just "Let's map normally, but faster!", it looks like your every day map, but it's just much faster, if you'd take this and slow it down by x0.5, You'd just have a normal Insane difficulty. - that's what happens to most alt maps when you slow them down but ok
Which doesn't work, at all.
The thing you need to realize when mapping such dense songs is how hard it can get to constantly click notes while having to aim so precisely.
The map simply starts with pretty calm beats, and you already start using insane spacing, even though the song doesn't call for anything like that.
If the flow was linear/circular, I'd totally get it, it's a way to introduce the map's concepts to the player, but you're using a lot of sharp snap patterns such as 00:01:645 (1,2,1,2) - Which just feel extremely unnatural compared to the relaxed nature of the song on this part.
Then we get to this nice thing 00:06:783 (1,2,3) - It makes sense, but considering this looks like the spacing previously used and how high the OD is, It's nearly impossible to hit full 300s on this, most players will just read this as an off-rhythm 1/4 pattern or just won't be able to understand it.
The use of 1/8 gaps with big jumps like 00:16:853 (1,2) - causes very awkward snapping and really unfun movement. It becomes even more weird when there is nothing supporting such strange placement in the song like 00:18:520 (2) -
Some of your patterns just don't feel like they even try to make sense, and the placement is completely random, for example this pattern 00:35:325 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - Just doesn't seem to follow anything, not to mention that spamming NCs like that makes it really weird for players to pass, and can cause a sightread player to instantly fail the map. If you actually want to make this reasonable, you can use spacing that follows a certain logic and seperate the combos to combos of 3s to indicate the usage of 1/3

Fine I adjusted all of these. The 1/3 part is supposed to look random cuz the song sort of breaks down there so I wanted the map to as well. Hopefully the reverse gives enough of an idea that it's 1/3. I removed all the unreasonable 1/8's and reduced spacing on the ones I wanted to keep and nerfed some of the sharper earlier patterns even more than before.

And then we get to the kiai, and oh boy, the kiai.
The use of back and forth 1/4 patterns is just
just
why.
The whole difficulty feels unnatural and awkward anyways, by implementing those patterns you just emphasize on the fact that you don't want your players to have fun. - I really don't think they make it.. "unfun" since I've never gotten a single complaint from people who can actually play this map that any part of it was awkward or unfun. The usage of back and forth 1/4's if you even bothered to read the post on the previous page which it doesn't seem you did you just came here to rant about the map, is because the whole kiai is already flowy and comfortable, so using the back and forth 1/4s is a method of contrast to that in order to bring out the intense spike of the song in those respective areas.
I get it, the song is intense, but the sounds aren't abnormal or inconsistent, they are pretty much a linear intense row of 1/4s.
So why not map them in a linear way, like the song implies?
The player has so much to worry about in this difficulty, from irregular beats, 1/6 bursts and generally intense gameplay, you now force them to have yet another concern, and that's snapping in patterns that don't feel good to play at all and don't actually follow any sort of structure or legitimate flow.
Yet another "unfun" thing that happens, is this pattern 01:32:061 (3,4) - It kicks extremely fast, and then you are forced to make a movement opposite to what the slider leniency implies, which causes in a seemingly random, super fast and unnatural snap movement. - I adjusted this.

I'm sorry, but this is far from a fun map, it uses tons of interesting concepts (Most of them are taken from Shiirn's version) but you just cluttered a crazy amount of gameplay elements which don't compliment each other into this single 116 second mess.
Thanks for your constructive criticism and generally helpful comments. I'm glad you took the time to write a civilized and respectful "mod" for my map.

In all seriousness there's no need to be so hostile, I don't get what you're so offended about to call my map a mess. It's clearly not and most of it is structured internally within each part of the song. The song has very unique parts each with its own concepts so any mess you see is a consequence of me adapting to what the song is doing.

The back and forth 1/4s in the kiai have already been discussed and adjusted accordingly and an explanation can be found if you read back in the thread. I do not intend on removing them as they would not represent the intensity as a flowing square or triangle pattern. Especially not when I used those for other weaker sounds earlier in the map. I want contrast, and they provide contrast. They play fine and I've been told if I change them I lose a lot of the song expression and I'm inclined to agree with that. While you may think it is unfun I've gotten comments from players that can actually play this saying otherwise.

I should probably reply to the other mods while I'm here.

Smokeman wrote:

short cancer mod before you rank this (might be too late)

comfort

01:38:728 (1,2) - you can make them overlap better just like 01:37:478 (1,2,1,2) - ot literaly any other slider you did in the map
01:48:311 (1,2,3) - This stacking concept looks out of place imo. Have 01:49:353 (3) - be stacked under 01:48:728 (2) - not 01:48:311 (1) - (do you feel the stack?). Tbh just recheck the stacking on the slider-ends of most sliders. There is a method to get them stacking even after loding up the map (or atleast better than how it is now oof) - there's that sharp cut-off piano that's why there's a stack but fixed the incorrect stack
01:52:895 (1,2,3,4) - "Just gonna grab this one out random". You do focus to represent different sounds in the song in different and unique ways in context of the map (see: 00:16:853 (1,1) - or 00:19:040 (1) - ). But here you expect a simple back and forth to do the trick. You have strong beats on 01:52:895 (1,2,4) - and a weak one 01:53:103 (3) - tho the spacing doesnt indicate that. Since this such a fast song players will most likely not even feel the "slight" difference in spacing you put there hence why i recommend to you to make it more noticable... is not 01:21:228 (2,3,4,5,1) - all over again. 288BPMm is pretty fast oke? https://puu.sh/xyiMh/31e7cfbdf0.png - adjusted all of this already
01:32:478 (1,2,3,4,1) - The spacing on this feels totally out of place in regard to 01:22:895 (4,5,6,7) - and how these were mapped in this manner on really distinct sounds. You have some kinda of scracth going on here so maybe sum sliders would fit it better cause sircles are harsher to hit than circles :s - also adjusted already
00:01:957 (2) - Why not put this here https://puu.sh/xyhAN/bc6ece2213.png so its less cancer to play from the start ?
00:27:061 (1,2,3) - this is 1/6th. You could put sliders if you are scared of the 1/6th. Oke i thought you were following the piano thingy cause you put a note on 00:26:853 (3) - . If you follow the piano melody then please follow the piano melody dont just switch to drums cause you scared of 1/6th cause there are some drums here aswell 00:26:645 - so alkcöasdlkv. :[ - i wanted drums here though, i follow piano everywhere else
01:21:853 (2) - this is really pedantic: https://puu.sh/xyibo/3178ef9dcd.png. 01:21:645 (1,2) - having as it is right now would imply some continuity with the sounds in the song from slider 1 to 2, BUT 01:21:645 (1) - is more of a buil-up for the climatic 01:21:853 (2) - instead. The mapping just doesnt reflect the sounds int he music very well and i am not gonna hammer this on every occurance cause w/e. - i don't get what you're talking about here, these are not supposed to be build up sliders to 2, but to 01:22:061 (3) - instead which i feel they accomplish?
01:29:561 (1,2) - these and 01:30:117 (3,4) - these shouldnt be on similar visual spacings. Make them more distinct cause this is a pretty heavy change from the usualy shenanigans the song does
01:37:061 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - This shoudl totally be decreasing in spacing/speed just like the song does on all its layers xd
01:38:728 (1,2) - Make this shape flater than 01:37:478 (1) - 01:38:415 (2) - cause 01:37:478 (1,2,1,2) - is following this wierd vocal line and the other one is the piano. Both flow into eachother nicely in the song but they still sound distinctivly different
01:45:707 (1,2,3,4) - you cheaky Bir running out of space. 01:46:020 (4) - Is slightly off screen and imo you should have this not directly in the corner. https://puu.sh/xyiGz/defd5b4049.png Tbh should've noticed when the slider end node/anchor was off the grid aswell xd
01:25:395 (1,1) - woudl really ctr+g these. The buildup sounds like it comes from one place and doesnt go up and down :S - i guess


Waanted to keep this short but i ended up just posting down thing i found bothering on a sightread and some time in the editor.

IMO The difficulty of mapping this song is in being able to represent all the different kind of sounds in a proper manner. After that you can think about visual consistency and all that jazz.

BG in 2k17 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/797681 lul

Edit: uhm didnt see this getting popped... so i might drop a full check when i am not sleepy and you want me to :S

pkhg wrote:

hihi

reverb
00:39:770 (1,2,1) - not being mapped like 00:40:603 (1,2,3) - even if the music hasnt changed at all triggers me - the music does change, you have a transition in ambience to the latter 1,2,3 and the former is preceded by 00:39:770 (1) - which is a longer held out sound, the volume here is also quite low so the spacing is a lot lower here too
01:14:249 (1) - idk why you mapped this with a slider. pitch gets higher gradually so using circles and gradually increase spacing as the pitch does makes more sense to me - to set up the reversing motion that the back and forths will use and to provide leniency when going into them, the pitch also spikes on the circles not the reverse slider so i created a rhythm difference to show that
01:37:478 (1) - higher sv for every nc'd slider of this section would be cool ya - ehh i didn't do it before so i don't think it's necessary to do it here now
01:52:790 (4) - move it to x330y113 lol - adjusted before
Thanks you two.

If anyone wants to further argue that I didn't structure this map at all, that it's a mess completely, and that there was zero thought put into this diff whatsoever - please step forward with examples of places that I clearly made a mistake in mapping a certain way and that isn't consistent with another concept I already introduced in the map.

I feel like the only reason people are trying to shit on the map is 1. it's close in concept to Shiirn's and we all know how that went down, 2. 1/4 back and forths in the kiai are "too much" when I've never had any negative feedback from players about how they play and whether or not they were too straining, 3. the song is too different and i mapped it in different ways to show that so people automatically default to "inconsistent" and disregard the song itself being inconsistent.

Also if it "plays unfun" at least be able to play the map to a decent degree to give me actual feedback I can use playability wise or at least explain to me how it plays badly instead of just saying "the whole map feels awkward and unnatural" or "map it linear because my interpretation is the sound is linear so you should really map it how i think it should be mapped"

Honestly I'm getting a bit tired of repeating myself lol. Just read the thread and you'll get enough context. If you still disagree then bring up something I haven't heard before already. If you're going to shit on the map at least give me suggestions on how to fix it and if the whole thing is flawed then fucking say it so I can fix it. But if it's flawed just because you think it's not fun or it plays too awkwardly because of concepts that I used consistently throughout the map then don't bother. I played the map myself and got others to test it and nobody said it played awkwardly or unfun - in fact most liked it, which is what I'm going for.

IMO The difficulty of mapping this song is in being able to represent all the different kind of sounds in a proper manner.
Doing this is impractical because of the BPM so I had to generalize my emphasis for the most part and where I did do it specifically eg kiais it's at very intense moments. If there are ways to represent the sounds in a way that wouldn't impact the pacing/flow/playability of the map in a negative way that lines up with how I vision it then please do provide some suggestions. I am always open to suggestions.

Updated along with Lasse's small update.
Avena
I got a few players to test this because I was curious, and I noticed a trend
Xilver had an insanely good combo for most of the map, he did have a few breaks, but overall he played insanely well
But everyone, including him messed up completely on this pattern 01:52:061 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) -
Topic Starter
Mir
I redid the last part to be less continuous stream and more jumpy like the song suggests. This should work better and be less of a reading challenge with unfair strain. It's also more consistent with the intro but I don't think that's as important.

Also replaced the 1/3 with triangles! I know we all love triangles. (they're not that bad I think)
Xilver15
o/ Mir wanted me to check the top diff.

22:18 Xilver: o/
22:18 Mir: o/
22:19 Mir: as was defined to me transition notes are things like 00:05:395 (1) - 00:15:915 (4) - etc
22:19 Mir: i guess to keep the intensity somewhat fluid and to avoid a drop in pacing
22:19 Mir: i was told they might be a bit questionably placed
22:20 Xilver: questionably placed?
22:20 Xilver: The only thing I can see is you sometimes have inconsistent angles
22:20 Mir: yeah like.. maybe too high spacing or they play weird
22:20 Xilver: stuff like 00:01:957 (2,1,2) - is sharp between 1 and 2
22:20 Xilver: giving 2 unnecessary emphasis
22:21 Xilver: compared to stuff like 00:05:395 (1,2) - which is a lot more fluid
22:21 Mir: mm that was one that was mentioned
22:21 Mir: does 2 really gain that much more emphasis
22:22 Mir: well i moved 1 anyways
22:22 Xilver: Yeah the angles definitely make it seem that way
22:22 Xilver: 00:01:645 (1,2,1) - this movement is uncomfortable anyway to begin with
22:23 Mir: how's this instead https://puu.sh/xC6O3/c7f497b3cf.png
22:23 Xilver: hmm that should do it
22:23 Xilver: It's more consistent with your other ones
22:24 Mir: alright i'll leave it like that then
22:24 Xilver: 00:26:540 (2,3) - not too sure about about this
22:25 Xilver: You have like, almost half a second where the player does nothing
22:25 Mir: hmm
22:26 Xilver: brb
22:26 Mir: i wanted to kinda emphasize the pause of the piano
22:27 Xilver: alright sorry lol
22:27 Xilver: uuumm
22:27 Xilver: I think the problem is more with the spacing
22:28 Xilver: It's too close apart IMO
22:29 Xilver: If you spaced it out more I think it would provide that effect better, right now I feel like it's too "strong"
22:29 Mir: hmm
22:29 Mir: alright i moved it under00:25:707 (3) - the reverse of this
22:31 Xilver: Yeah that should be alright
22:32 Xilver: Is there anything else?
22:33 Mir: anything else you could find would be cool but
22:33 Mir: what do you think of the sharp angles in the kiai
22:33 Xilver: There are a few other things but they're really minor subjective
22:33 Xilver: hmm
22:34 Xilver: You mean the jumps?
22:34 Mir: mhm
22:35 Xilver: You seem to use them pretty consistently so I don't see a problem with them
22:36 Xilver: I think there are some instances where you use them too much though
22:36 Mir: consistency aside
22:36 Mir: where do you think so
22:36 Xilver: like, stuff like this 01:17:790 (1,2,1) -
22:37 Xilver: I would personally try to emphasize that last slider
22:37 Mir: spacing too high there?
22:37 Xilver: Having sharp movement there means it blends too much with the previous parts of the kiai
22:37 Xilver: and it feels weak
22:37 Xilver: But that's up to you if you want to put emphasis on it or not lol, I just personally would'
22:38 Mir: those aren't necessarily sharp are they though? o.o
22:38 Xilver: the angle is REALLY sharp
22:39 Mir: maybe if moved 2 up a bit?
22:40 Mir: perhaps an arrangement like this might work https://puu.sh/xC7Cy/9c40990bd0.png ?
22:41 Xilver: https://i.imgur.com/0L75ofc.jpg
22:41 Mir: yeah i see that now
22:41 Xilver: yeah anything that would like, make it less sharp would contrast pretty well
22:41 Mir: i moved it from that to be less wide
22:41 Mir: i mean less sharp and more wide
22:41 Xilver: yeah
22:42 Xilver: 01:24:249 (1,2,3,1) - same here too
22:42 Xilver: If you're going to do it for the first one
22:43 Mir: mm there i think it's more justified to be sharp since it's more intense than the one before it
22:43 Xilver: ah, fair enough
22:43 Xilver: Overall though the angles are good
22:44 Mir: alright that's good to know
22:44 Mir: if there's nothing else you can actually post this for kds
22:44 Mir: or if not i'll ask your permission to provide the log regardless for.. uh.. evidence
22:46 Xilver: I could post it if you want
22:46 Mir: sure
22:50 Mir: how about the movement here specifically 01:52:582 (2,3,1,2,3,4) -
22:50 Xilver: oh actually
22:50 Xilver: I would ctrlg 01:53:103 (3,4) -
22:51 Xilver: It'd create better contrast and make the movement less circular
22:51 Mir: i want it to end on the bottom of the screen for emphasis through gravity
22:51 Mir: so maybe
22:52 Xilver: Since you used pretty circular movement throughout 01:52:061 (1,2,3,1,2,3) -
22:52 Mir: how many ways to arrange a 4 note jump pattern
22:52 Xilver: hmm well to me it's anything that would break the circle
22:53 Mir: how about https://puu.sh/xC8ak/ed4599290f.png
22:53 Mir: i can ctrl+2,3
22:53 Mir: or even
22:54 Xilver: https://i.imgur.com/K526gay.png
22:54 Xilver: ?
22:54 Mir: so this happens instead https://puu.sh/xC8bI/2226497f6f.png
22:54 Mir: lol. https://puu.sh/xC8cF/f93f4ef6ff.png
22:54 Mir: yeah i did something like thta
22:54 Mir: cool
22:54 Xilver: heh
22:54 Xilver: nice
22:55 Xilver: yeah sweet I think the end would feel more powerful that way
22:55 Mir: nice
1km
good map kek ;) hope this gets ranked
Hobbes2
we irc'd i want to bubble

19:16 Hobbes2: mur
19:16 Mir: bbBBbb2
19:16 Hobbes2: i blame my shitty keyboard
19:16 Mir: lemme quickly use the restroom
19:16 Hobbes2: ok
19:18 Mir: ok
19:18 Mir: shoot me
19:18 Hobbes2: ok
19:18 Hobbes2: lowest diff
19:18 Hobbes2: 01:17:895 (3,4) -
19:19 Mir: yes
19:19 Hobbes2: the head is clap but the tail and reverse are melody
19:19 Hobbes2: puke
19:19 Mir: can't do it any other way baws
19:19 Mir: blame beginner limits
19:19 Hobbes2: yeah i spent like 10 minutes figuring out an alternative
19:19 Hobbes2: to no avail
19:19 Hobbes2: so whatever
19:20 Hobbes2: 01:02:686 (5,6) - i think you should make these a slider, i dont think theres been much setup for this kind of 3/4 spacing in this map yet
19:20 Hobbes2: so it could throw of the player
19:20 Mir: 3/4 spacing?
19:20 Hobbes2: like i guess theres 00:56:645 (1,2,3) - this?
19:20 Hobbes2: i mean to make it readable
19:21 Mir: they're the same
19:21 Mir: idk what you mean
19:21 Mir: x.x
19:21 Hobbes2: i mean its not sightreadable
19:21 Hobbes2: for a normal
19:21 Mir: how so?
19:21 Mir: what's wrong with it
19:21 Hobbes2: it might have been if you had setup for this kind of 3/4 rhythm
19:21 Hobbes2: especially active rhythm
19:21 Hobbes2: but its like the first one so its kinda like how do u expect that
19:21 Mir: there's no 3/4 active rhythm
19:22 Mir: oh
19:22 Mir: you're in normal
19:22 Mir: tell me when you move
19:22 Hobbes2: gg
19:22 Hobbes2: my bad
19:22 Hobbes2: anyway this is a super minor complaint
19:22 Hobbes2: its not the worst, a lot of players can probably figure it out
19:22 Mir: i have to introduce it somewhere since i use it around kiai
19:22 Hobbes2: but still ehh
19:22 Mir: 01:35:395 (1,2,3) -
19:23 Mir: 01:37:478 (1,2) - etc
19:23 Hobbes2: yeah i noticed
19:23 Hobbes2: whatever i guess its fine
19:23 Mir: i could
19:23 Mir: 00:26:853 - map this
19:23 Mir: so it's kind active
19:23 Hobbes2: thats a good idea
19:23 Hobbes2: just some kind of really simple introduction to the spacing
19:23 Hobbes2: so its obvious later
19:23 Mir: or make 00:39:145 (1) - active
19:24 Hobbes2: u go from level 1 to level 2 to level 3 in the kiai
19:24 Hobbes2: i like mapping 00:26:853 -
19:24 Hobbes2: seems good to me
19:24 Mir: okay i just made that active and mapped the previous thing
19:24 Mir: so there's now 2 places you get active 3/4
19:24 Hobbes2: cool
19:25 Hobbes2: ok uhh
19:26 Hobbes2: 01:51:228 (5) - DS i think
19:26 Mir: fixerooni
19:26 Hobbes2: adv
19:27 Hobbes2: this diff is pretty good
19:27 Hobbes2: 00:32:895 (4,5,1) - another example of something i didnt like but thers not really a better way to do it
19:27 Hobbes2: so w/e
19:27 Hobbes2: 00:37:061 (1) - missing a finish or something
19:28 Mir: added finito
19:28 Hobbes2: 00:38:728 (2,3) - i think this should be a slider
19:29 Mir: hmm
19:29 Hobbes2: i had a reason earlier and im trying to remember what it was
19:29 Mir: i don't really like that idea since the dingly stuff in the back is quite active
19:29 Mir: i think circles represent that better
19:29 Hobbes2: sure i guess
19:29 Mir: i already have a direction change on 2 just for that extra emphasis
19:29 Hobbes2: 00:57:374 (2,1) - its ya boi overlap nazi
19:30 Mir: OH GOD
19:30 Hobbes2: 00:54:145 (1,1) - and his younger brother
19:30 Mir: NUEKd that shit
19:30 Hobbes2: overlap fascist
19:30 Mir: fixed them all
19:30 Mir: jesus
19:30 Hobbes2: kiais are cool
19:31 Hobbes2: 01:37:478 (1,2) -
19:31 Hobbes2: visual flow here is ass
19:32 Mir: okay dad gosh
19:32 Mir: moved a few pixels
19:32 Hobbes2: hyper
19:32 Hobbes2: 01:18:520 (2,3,4) -
19:32 Hobbes2: i misread this first time becaus eits the first 1/4 where you space it away from the previous object
19:33 Hobbes2: whereas usually this kind of spacing tended to indicate a 1/2 gap
19:33 Mir: you're right
19:33 Mir: i'll swallow the overlap and just do it
19:33 Hobbes2: i dont count 01:14:249 (1,2) - because its like
19:33 Hobbes2: super obviously different
19:34 Mir: 00:20:186 (2,3,4) - hm
19:34 Mir: lol
19:34 Mir: moved those i suppose
19:34 Hobbes2: 01:37:061 (4,1) - back in the advanced
19:34 Hobbes2: DS this normally
19:35 Hobbes2: 01:29:978 (1,2) -
19:35 Mir: huh
19:35 Mir: the ds is fine there to me
19:35 Hobbes2: that was all for the advanced i knew i forgot something z-L
19:35 Hobbes2: yeah the first one
19:35 Hobbes2: u ds'd it like 1.6
19:35 Hobbes2: make it like the second one
19:35 Mir: wha
19:35 Mir: 01:29:978 (1,2) - this?
19:35 Hobbes2: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9318401
19:35 Hobbes2: did i copy thwrong thing
19:36 Hobbes2: no i copied the right thing
19:36 Hobbes2: back in teh advanced
19:36 Hobbes2: ----^^^
19:36 Mir: yes
19:36 Mir: fixed it
19:36 Hobbes2: cool
19:36 Hobbes2: back to the yper
19:36 Mir: you didn't
19:36 Mir: you copied the 1:29
19:36 Hobbes2: no
19:36 Hobbes2: i coped the 137
19:36 Hobbes2: and then copied the 129 as the example of the correct thing
19:37 Hobbes2: u buffoon think you can outsmart the HO B B B ES
19:37 Hobbes2: kiai of hyper is well done
19:37 Mir: >:
19:37 Mir: oki lets go back
19:37 Mir: oh you fucking phrased it wrong
19:37 Hobbes2: oh
19:37 Hobbes2: gg
19:37 Hobbes2: anywayyyayay
19:37 Hobbes2: back to the hyper
19:37 Hobbes2: i think for 01:37:478 (1,2,3) -
19:38 Hobbes2: since u followed the synth here which makes sense because its kinda all thats there
19:38 Hobbes2: i think 01:39:353 - should be like
19:38 Hobbes2: a slider or something
19:38 Hobbes2: switching to that vocal chop thing is kinda...meh
19:39 Mir: okay
19:39 Mir: slider'd
19:39 Hobbes2: 01:45:395 (2,3) -
19:39 Hobbes2: 01:42:895 (1,2) -
19:39 Hobbes2: top 10 anime inconsistencies
19:39 Mir: those aren't even the same things
19:40 Hobbes2: right but when u space different things the same
19:40 Hobbes2: ya boy eyes fuck your brain so hard that you cant land anything
19:40 Mir: LLL
19:40 Hobbes2: well any person and their mother could probably land that
19:40 Hobbes2: whatever
19:40 Mir: kk moved the repeats closer
19:40 Hobbes2: oh
19:40 Hobbes2: cool
19:40 Hobbes2: thats all for the hyper
19:40 Mir: 01:51:645 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1) - should be fine though?
19:40 Hobbes2: yeah
19:41 Mir: kk
19:41 Hobbes2: because its like the post climax psuedo climax
19:41 Hobbes2: the another was more or less good i think there wwas one thign
19:42 Mir: owo
19:42 Hobbes2: 00:33:728 (1,2) - these have the same hitsound
19:42 Hobbes2: but the sounds are like notably different
19:42 Hobbes2: actually thats a non issue ignore that
19:43 Mir: o.o
19:43 Mir: okay
19:43 Hobbes2: 00:53:936 (3) - this being clicable takes away from teh synth focused rhythm
19:44 Mir: doesn't that have a synth on it
19:44 Hobbes2: oh
19:44 Hobbes2: its a different instrument
19:44 Hobbes2: eh i guess it works
19:44 Hobbes2: brb
19:44 Mir: oki
19:45 Hobbes2: back
19:45 Mir: hello
19:46 Hobbes2: jk there was nothing for this diff
19:46 Hobbes2: nothin g for lasse's either
19:46 Mir: LOL
19:46 Mir: okay
19:46 Hobbes2: i was in the middle of the topdiff when the wthing restarted
19:46 Hobbes2: so
19:46 Mir: now for the controversial diff
19:46 Hobbes2: to reverb we go
19:47 Mir: ohhh
19:48 Hobbes2: 00:01:645 (1,2) -
19:48 Mir: yeah yeah
19:48 Hobbes2: i dont think 2 is necessary
19:48 Mir: that's pretty much the gist of it
19:48 Mir: yeah it's not
19:48 Mir: removed and extended 1
19:49 Mir: 00:08:311 - did for this too
19:50 Hobbes2: 00:06:801 (1,2,3,1) - consider http://puu.sh/xYi3V/3dedcd9c71.jpg this arrangement
19:50 Hobbes2: its like super minor but it hink its better
19:50 Mir: i was told by kaifin this way works better to show the snapping difference from 3 to 1
19:50 Hobbes2: i think the opposite lol
19:50 Mir: hmm
19:51 Mir: i would rather keep it this way since it works somewhat like a stack
19:51 Hobbes2: yeah i guess i can see that
19:51 Hobbes2: the problem is its not quite a stack so
19:51 Hobbes2: thats kinda where that falls apart imo
19:51 Hobbes2: maybe if you moved it closer i could see that
19:52 Mir: hgnhgnh
19:52 Mir: let me ask someone
19:52 Hobbes2: if you dont want ot change it thats fine, just giving my opinion
19:53 Mir: no im kinda on the border of that too
19:56 Mir: just throw me the other stuff
19:56 Mir: im asking people atm
19:56 Hobbes2: ok
19:57 Hobbes2: 00:19:145 (2,1,2,3,1) - why is this spaced so high
19:57 Hobbes2: its consistently really hard for me to land
19:58 Hobbes2: feels kinda unnecessary
19:58 Hobbes2: brb i need to floss something out of mey teeth
19:59 Hobbes2: ok
19:59 Hobbes2: 00:32:686 (1,2,3,1) - something like this is more reasoanable
19:59 Mir: lowered it
19:59 Hobbes2: 00:39:457 (1,1) - was this supposed to be a blanket
20:00 Mir: yes and it looks fine
20:00 Hobbes2: thinking
20:00 Hobbes2: 00:49:353 (2,4) - its ya boy stack nazi
20:01 Mir: wew
20:01 Mir: fixerooni'd
20:01 Hobbes2: 00:53:936 (3,2) - this is less nazi and more of actual slip
20:02 Hobbes2: kiias are fine imo
20:03 Mir: cool
20:03 Mir: i nerfed one thing
20:03 Mir: 01:16:020 (3,4) - made this jump a bit smaller
20:03 Hobbes2: thats all from my end
20:03 Hobbes2: whenever you update ill just playtest the top 3 on elast time and then we'll go from there
20:04 Mir: alright uploading now
20:05 Hobbes2: neat
20:05 Mir: done
20:05 Mir: sr down again
20:05 Mir: nerferino
20:06 Hobbes2: ok redling
20:06 Hobbes2: time to fail some maps
20:08 Hobbes2: maybe the last two notes are a bit cancer but thats what makes it fun amirite
20:08 Hobbes2: the kiais on that diff are super fun
20:09 Mir: :D
20:11 Hobbes2: seemsgood
20:11 Mir: hellyea
20:12 Hobbes2: whatever pretend i passe
20:12 Hobbes2: i passed it earlier before the nerf so that must mean something
20:12 Mir: tfw you got past the hard part
20:12 Hobbes2: as in earlier today
20:13 Mir: yeah i didn't rly change that much
20:13 Mir: everything i changed you already saw
20:13 Mir: so
20:13 Hobbes2: well yeah seems good let me just make sure the lwo diffs were changed right
20:13 Mir: yehaj
20:14 Hobbes2: cool
20:14 Hobbes2: seems good
20:15 Mir: gucci
20:17 Hobbes2: sets fine
20:17 Hobbes2: ilet me save log and remove the incriminating stuff
Topic Starter
Mir
We determined the raised concerns were either fixed or addressed in a satisfactory manner.

Some nerfs and QOL improvements on the topdiff were made regarding some more spacing, and that's about all the major things.
Hobbes2
no edgy poem 0/10
Uta

Mir wrote:

Thanks Voli~
who is voli
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