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posted

Kondou-Shinichi wrote:

is there a TL;DR of this TL;DR?
tl;dr: is aight, some problems
posted
jeez, I struggle to understand how this stuff works any more. It's weird how this system's been constantly reworked for like a decade and all that's happened is it's gotten progressively more complicated and confusing without, as far as I can tell, getting much more efficient.
posted

Mao wrote:

We discussed the probation period thing in the last meeting and I'm all for it. One potential problem I have is the "All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members'" thing as I think that we should not just blindly "promote" all of our current BNs. In my opinion, it might be better to look at all current T1s and decide case by case who we can put into the "regular members" already and who we'd like to go into the probation period first in order to prove themselves again.
So yeah but all in all, I'm fine with this point.
If you're still picking T1's then it's not probationary and you're still trying to keep the tiering system. You should read this change as "tiering system is gone" not "tiering system is now more lenient". I think you misunderstood the point if you are fine with it :\. Only new BN's would be on probation which makes sense since they are new. If you have issues with current BN's why not talk to them instead of trying to keep them from being full members? You're trying to be transparent right? So maybe you can discuss with them instead of judging them without letting them know what qualms you have with their current mode of operation. As well, how do you judge how BN's would have "proven" themselves? By only nominating maps you think are high quality? What if they have a different definition of quality to you? Many of the new BN's who got in through the BN Tests have been following your guys' concepts of "high quality maps" for too long, and it's caused mapping to become stale. Don't expect that to continue. There used to be multiple definitions. Now, mapping quality has become too streamlined.

Mao wrote:

I don't really see a problem here with having QAT leaders themselves but I voiced these concerns before and I'm still holding on to them: I think that if we have BNs vote, it will end up as a popularity contest and that will result most likely in a non-functioning leadership.
So yeah, I'm against this point for now, not because of the idea of a leadership but because of the way these leaders are elected.
First of all, what's wrong with a popularity contest? QAT's like pishifat and Okorin are popular because they put themselves forward, and are a lot more transparent in what they do. They are also a lot more active at least from what we can see as BN's and mappers. Maybe it's time you guys stopped being all secretive? :D

Also, I'd rather have a QAT in charge that is popular and can get along with the BN ecosystem than a QAT who might be "better" (very subjective too) at their job, but has very little support from the people they want to lead. You only fear the QAT leadership will become dysfunctional because the unpopular QAT's (You, Cryptic, Doyak etc...) won't have a chance compared to pishifat/oko/maybe kwan if shes staying. But do you really think they will create a dysfunctional leadership? What criteria do you think determines a good QAT leader? And why do you fear that other QAT members might not meet that criteria?

Mao wrote:

Deif wrote:
To be honest, I'm sick and tired of getting blamed for not being transparent enough towards other members of the modding community.


Couldn't agree more. So yeah, I'll give my opinion to the proposal too:
:)
posted

Desperate-kun wrote:

Naotoshi wrote:

I think at this point, the idea of tiers changing the quality of ranked should probably be abandoned since it clearly didn't work...
Please don't assume that everyone thinks the way you (and certain other people that speak out in public) do. The tier change has improved the quality of ranking in a sense that there are less maps qualified that were considered "very bad" by the community - The border isn't very clear, but if you look at the reports lately you'll notice 99% of them are about more minor things than we had before the tier split.

To remain the quality standard we have, or even improve it, while implementing the proposed system, the QATs will need to make sure to find a method of selecting those BNs that isn't just "anyone who didn't get striked", otherwise this is a huge step backwards. The actual maps those people qualified need to be taken into account.
You shouldn't assume the tier shift has improved mapping quality either. That's a really big assumption... Nao's assumption is at least built on the fact that 99% of people here support abandoning the tier shift. (It's not actually 99%, i'm just using your rhetoric ;3)

Desp wrote:

The border isn't very clear, but if you look at the reports lately you'll notice 99% of them are about more minor things than we had before the tier split.
99%? You should check the thread again. Many of the issues that were reported in the thread were also reported even before the tier shift.

Desp wrote:

To remain the quality standard we have, or even improve it, while implementing the proposed system, the QATs will need to make sure to find a method of selecting those BNs that isn't just "anyone who didn't get striked", otherwise this is a huge step backwards. The actual maps those people qualified need to be taken into account.
I'm actually really looking forward to this. Mapping has become stale, and you can see that in the community response. Quality is good in most maps, but mapping is too streamlined towards a certain "high quality standard" through correct emphasis, aesthetics, slider designs, flows, etc... The issue really is that right there is "the quality standard" as in only one standard of quality, whereas previously there were others. Look at old maps since you seem to enjoy them. Spacing was a lot more radical, and emphasis wasn't always correct. Some old chinese mappers, AngelHoney/fanzhen/kiddly had a habit of emphasizing red-ticks in jump patterns instead of white ticks which for mappers today is "incorrect emphasis, since white ticks are stronger". But they were (and still are) great maps to play. New Gravity is still one of my favourites, and it employs this red-tick jump idea.


Mapping quality doesn't need to be "improved" honestly. From what I see, if a map is following the mapping meta, and it was sent back 2 years, it would have been very high quality. The issue is that many people now map with this current "meta" making it no longer a rarity. If everything is high quality, only the very high quality maps are now high quality, and everything else is just average.
posted

Ephemeral wrote:

Refrain from commenting on other's opinions or the like for the time being - we'll have an open-ended discussion thread on that at a later date.
I would remind this to MrMonstrata, it seems it has been forgotten already
posted
Dropping my two cents in this.

Dissolution of the current BN tiering system

The current BN tiering system will be dissolved, and replaced with a probationary system.

New BN will enter the system at this probationary level. We will call it 'T1' just for the sake of familiarity. All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members' (aka, T2) and will be allowed to both qualify and bubble maps at will.

Probationary members will not be permitted to qualify - only to bubble. The probation period will not exceed longer than a 2 month timeframe, with most people ideally out of probation after QAT review after a one month time period.

Full members may be reduced to the probationary level at any time by QAT consensus if their conduct is deemed unacceptable, or they repeatedly make large mistakes or oversights.

Probationary members that prove problematic for whatever reason will be opened up to a QAT consensus vote for dismissal from the BN. This must pass with a significant majority (66%+).

A new BN addition round will begin immediately. The new members will enter at the probationary level.
I can't say much for this as a non-standard division leader, but I do agree with the proposed probation system. New BNs will need to tinker with their new tools and get accustomed into the rules and guidelines of being a BN to determine whether or not they actually fit as a member of the BNG. I think 1-2 months is a good enough timeframe to decide that.

After reviewing what's proposed in this, I'm fine with it.

Also, there's already a non-standard BN addition round in progress, so I'm not sure how another addition round will work when there's one that's currently underway. Probably in a month or two?


Beatmap Nominator acknowledgement

Full members of the Beatmap Nominators (aka: not probationary members) will once again receive a forum title and the purple name they were once known for in the past.

Probationary members do not receive this until they become a full member.

This is a temporary change and will not be carried over into the new system. Nominators under the new system (new being the automated system referenced in the past) will receive a different form of visual identification, yet to be determined.

This way, people that find BN via the forums will know that purple equals someone that can help. There will be no need to consult tier lists or anything of the sort.

In addition, long-serving BN (>1.5 years) will qualify for a special title which they may choose to have applied to their account when they retire. What this will be is still being considered, but probably something involving community and modding somehow.
I think the name color was proposed before but somehow wasn't really implemented, though I'm not sure why these changes are only temporary and don't carry over to the new system. I don't think it should be that hard to implement name colors in the new website.

I definitely agree to giving rewards to BNs that have stayed for so long and have spent a lot of their time in modding and helping out in the community. They should be given those kinds of rewards if they deserve it.


Beatmap Nominator rewards

The most active BN member every 6 months as determined by a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity will receive the "Elite Nominator" title permanently, and 6 months of osu! supporter, plus 3 months that they may gift to any of their friends.

This will also be featured as a standalone news announcement complete with social media advertisement.

Other rewards will be considered as time goes on and new systems are announced.
This one is currently being discussed among the BNG/QAT. I don't really foresee titles being given out for people that only pass that threshold, and I believe there should be more variables taken into account in determining how BNs will get rewarded for it. (e.g. Did the map end up in the Spotlights? Did the BN qualify a map from a new mapper?)

Gonna throw out a suggestion here. For non-standard game modes, the requirements should be lower since standard provides a lot more content that gets ranked than these modes. One major factor for this would be how much content each game mode produces, so standard requires more activity to be given a reward, then mania, then taiko/catch.

JBH is gathering up ideas on what kinds of rewards should be given, what criteria is needed to be given rewards and how they should be implemented, and discussion for this are currently in place, so we'll see.


Divisions

Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment.

This one is a bit nebulous and may require further consideration.
Already happened with catch and mania, and on my side it's actually much better than it was before. I do like that we're now able to communicate much better and that we're able to work together if some of us needed help with checking a map.

Not sure how this could work on the standard side though, so I won't say anything about this for now.


QAT changes

QAT will be no longer barred (or discouraged) from bubbling, qualifying, or vetting qualified maps on their own.

The 'report a map' thread will be closed, and the functionality shifted to a 'report this map' button on the beatmap's web page. These reports will coalesce at certain thresholds within the #qat channel on the osu! internal discord, and all QAT will be expected to review these maps for potential issues as soon as they notice them.

QAT will be encouraged to return to checking qualified maps of their own initiative and interest, and a solution will be made to try to automatically allocated newly qualified maps to certain divisions for checking and approval.

My current idea for this is a Discord bot will notify divisions in their channels when a newly qualified map is assigned to them. I'm open to other ideas.

QAT will also be strongly encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps while removing unnecessary roadblocks to having alternate mapping styles enter Ranked. They will do so under the leadership of a self-appointed leader(s), explained more below.
We haven't been discouraged of modding / bubbling / qualifying for a long while now. In fact, we are actually encourage of doing them while we do other thing. This change was made around a year ago or so iirc.

I'm alright with a 'Report a map' button, but I'm wondering on how non-standard game mode maps will be decided. If it's a taiko map, then the taiko divisions should be the ones that are checking it. Reported catch maps should be checked by catch guys, mania maps should be checked by mania guys, etc.

I also believe that how the button works should be more expanded upon. The criteria needed for the report to submit would be a link to the post, a short sentence or two explaining what issues the map currently has, and something that checks to see if the map has already been reported. As an example, someone wants to report a map, and if the map was reported before, it should show that it's reported and that people are currently looking into it so it prevents people from reporting the same map over and over.

We're also undergoing making changes with the Ranking Criteria for all modes, so I can only say that this is currently happening as of now.


QAT rewards

Long-standing members of the QAT (>2 years) will receive a profile badge denoting their tenure and marking anything significant they achieved during their time on the team.

They will be afforded a permanent place on the osu! Alumni should they choose to retire. They will also receive osu! supporter equivalent to the length of their service on the team once they retire.

Some of this is already the case, but I figured I'd state it again just to make people aware.
Overall agree to this. It's nice to feel rewarded for the stuff you do every once in a while, but only if you earned it.


Returning agency

Should this proposal pass in full, the leadership and direction of the QAT will no longer be determined by a nebulous group of people officiated by the "staff".

The leader(s) will be determined by an expression of interest, followed by a combined vote from both the QAT and the Beatmap Nominators. The top scoring aspirants will be considered the de-facto QAT leadership, though they may number no greater than two.

Before clarifying this further, you must all understand that the BN/QAT system is a system in flux. It has been a standalone 'workaround' to the non-availability of an automated system that is supposed to fully regulate BN appointment automatically, with the QAT designed to fill a literal quality assurance role in that regard. It will change significantly from what it currently is at some point in the near future. When that time is exactly, none of us can say.

The scope of the QAT's leadership will be largely limited to day-to-day affairs and ensuring the smooth addition to and running of the Beatmap Nominators. QAT leadership will be expected to engage with both the Beatmap Nominators and the QAT as a whole, and generally be active and engaged members of the community of their own right.

The QAT leadership will work closely with a member of the osu! team to help them get things going and to provide consul for any systemic changes they may wish to make.

For the time being, that member will be me (Ephemeral). Understand however, that I will not be assuming direct leadership of the QAT under any circumstances bar an absolute necessity. My time has long since passed, and it is well past time for the newer members of the community to begin having their say in the game's future direction.
I'm not sure how I feel about this one. If anything, QAT Leaders should be evaluated by the staff on how they work / act around others and how they're going to lead the whole BNG/QAT once they're appointed. I'm aware of the 'popularity contest' aspect that's been going around, but this voting system is more of a double-edged sword that can either be very beneficial in leading the whole BNG/QAT or can backfire in a way that things don't change or become worse.

More transparency and communication is always beneficial between the BNG, the QAT and the staff though, and as such should be more encouraged.

---
tl;dr These are pretty great ideas and there are some that I think are not so great, but we'll see how these get discussed and implemented in the system we currently have today. I would very much appreciate that some of the concerns are addressed as well.
posted
BN members receive increased acknowledgement via a forum title and some sort of visual identification (currently a purple name a la MAT). This particular point is temporary and will not carry over into the 'moddingv2' version of the Beatmap Nominators.
I always wonder why BNs didn't obtain this kind of identification like old MATs from the beginning of BN/QAT change. This would be 100% correct if it wasn't "temporary" but permanent. Do not forget that if we have the possibility to play every day some new qualified > ranked maps this is given by the BNs hard work that should be recognized by others as well. They deserve to be recognized with some different colour in the forum/game chat like old MATs system.

The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.
This is actually cool. This would push BNs to work more and better. I mean better because if this comes to be true they could try to nominate maps that are not 100% ready for ranking just to show their activities for the hunger of power making troubles with the future QATs' work. (Well I am kinda pessimist but we must see all the aspects of each propose).

QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.
Finally? I always wonder so far what QATs were related to mapping/modding system since they are doing only moderating actions.

QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering Ranked
This is so cool. But being the BNs experienced modders and mappers as well they could contribuite to this too.

GaterRaider wrote:

An upheaval to me would require that the blatant favoritism amongst BNs is addressed. Quick bubbles are passed around as favors that will be returned in the future in some way or the other. I am not going to name people but public cases of this are well recorded and should be no surprise to anyone. I don't even want to know how bad this truly is when you are an insider that has access to these advantages.

The problem is that nominators are naturally mappers and have a lot of influence in the ranking process. This creates an obvious incentive for favoritism to help each other out with their own maps. When those who are in charge of running the system are actively participating in it as individuals themselves then there are going to be problems.

Connections are too big of a driver in the current ranking process. Those with access to the people in charge are highly advantaged compared to those that do not. When getting hold of a BN is incredibly frustrating for some, while others can simply post a short message in a private discord server to get things rolling quickly I do not consider it a fair system.
You are right by a side, but not on the other one. There are a lot of cases you mentioned that are true, but don't forget that BNs are anyways experienced mappers. If they get a map modded and even nominated by his BN friend, you can't do anything with this, but you can't even negate the fact that if they get the nomination this means that the map is ready to be qualified and ranked. You can not make this a BN's fault because when they mod a BN's map he is working for him like he does for everyone else.

Furthermore, I would propose to give much more importance to the Kudosu system too to "find" a good solution to the problem GaterRaider mentioned here. I mean, it's true that mostly of the ranked beatmaps are from experienced and well known mappers. I modded some maps that could be potentially qualified but the mentioned mappers are unknown and mostly are rejected when they ask privately a mod to a BN even if they think from other modders beatmaps are cool and respect the ranking criteria. It's just an idea I write here because I do not know where else I could propose. All modders with more than 200kd can vote a modded beatmap (this would make the queue's more active than asking it privately on the game). I mean, they can vote map on some parameters like the flow, the structure, the innovation and so on only after they received the kudosu (or people will give random kd just to get some points on their maps). There will be created a ranking of these voted maps that can be checked only by BNs and QATs where they can choose which maps to mod that are considered already good for qualifying. This would be nice for unknown mappers (that have for example 0 ranked beatmaps but a good quality of mapping) to be chosen by this "ranking" beatmap system instead to try to have the impossible luck to reach a BN's queue in time. Sorry if this is not related to the post but I wanted to propose this anyways.
posted
Mark ranking process great again
posted

Mashley wrote:

jeez, I struggle to understand how this stuff works any more. It's weird how this system's been constantly reworked for like a decade and all that's happened is it's gotten progressively more complicated and confusing without, as far as I can tell, getting much more efficient.
the more things change the more they remain the same imo, just under a different name from before
agreed tho
posted

Anxient wrote:

this is a good civilization.
posted
All BN and QAT should get osu! supporter regardless, is the very least that they deserve.
posted
I'd be very surprised if the QAT did not have temporary supporter anymore. All BATs certainly did, you had supporter status enabled by virtue of being a BAT.
posted
Transparency

I'm glad this is a thing that's being spoken about. I'm very aware that the transparency between QAT and BN failed in many instances, but I also was not happy about the transparency within the QAT and higher levels. Looking forward to this for sure.

Dissolution of the current BN tiering system

While I still do believe that the reasons for tiering are valid, it didn't work out as intended and brought a bad climate into the community. So generally, I do agree with this propose.

The probationary system makes a lot of sense to me, as the way BNs will be elected is good to determine modding skill, but doesn't make sure that the BNs are able to keep up good attitude in the daily BNG-life. Following the CoC etc. etc. is an important matter, too.

Beatmap Nominator acknowledgement

Good

Beatmap Nominator rewards

Good

Divisions

As stated in this paragraph itself, it does need some further thoughts about how it will be implemented in future, hence why I need to think about it further as well. Teams are a good approach, but as of right now, I feel like some divisions don't work out as intended. While certain people are very active, others are not - and this is were motivation levels can be influenced in a negative way. The whole thing with the rewards should not be division based, as I've stated somewhere else as well. These kind of rewards push competition where there shouldn't be, hence why they shouldn't be a thing in the first place. People are too diverse in terms of activity and motivation!

QAT changes

Looking forward to the report a beatmap button. Not quite sure how to understand it, but what do you mean with divisions in this case? It's an interesting thought that certain divisions check certain maps, but it would increase the workload of the BNG immensely (if you mean these kind of divisions) - I'm unsure as of how this will be received.

What I hope most is that the QAT-role won't be degraded to administrational stuff any longer.

QAT rewards

Good

Returning agency

Okay

tldr: While I agree with many points stated, some things still need more thoughts. Generally, it's going into an interesting direction though!
Change was needed, and I'm glad to see that stuff is moving right now.
posted
My turn.

Current BN tiering system is dissolved and replaced with a 1-2 month probationary system with provisions for promotion/demotion based on conduct
I for real can't tell much to the Tier System because it was only a osu! thing. But from my view i support this idea. And like Irre said above, "Following the CoC etc. etc. is an important matter, too."


Long, consistently serving BN will receive a special title which they may choose to wear upon their retirement from the team. This will apply retroactively to all qualifying, currently-retired BN.
--
The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.
Absolute support this. BN's do a ton of work for osu! and their community, everyone put his free time into this voluntary hobby. Some rewards for their work should have happend already long ago xP
If i remember right several things like colored names were discussed already in the past but never made it into live because of reasons.


Divisions will receive more attention and reworking by members of the QAT to better reflect active participation in them by those who are interested.
Hmm.. with "by those who are interested" you mean you want to make participation into BN division optional? If so i don't know if this is such a good idea. Divisons should get a part of the BNG Membership for the sake of the community. Within division the BN's work closer together and have someone to ask if needed without bigger trouble. A highlight is enough. Right now the division thing is running actually pretty cool and smooth (Maybe just some are a bit inactive but then just drop a whip there).


QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.
As far i know we were never discouraged to check qualify maps. We always could do that, just not DQ on our own when for playability changes. I as example did check a lot of maps since the reporting system started and did disqualify them if something was against the RC. For massive playability stuff i just did drop a mod if necessary and asked an other QAT to look over it.
The new reporting system sounds cool. I would totally give it a try. It would also be easier to handle DQ then so green light to this point from me.


QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering Ranked
I put a big "Under Construction" sign here. A rework of the ranking criteria for all modes is currently going on.


The de-facto leadership of the QAT will be determined by applicants expressing their interest, and placing themselves before a combined vote of the BN and QAT. The top two applicants will be considered as the QAT leadership, and will work closely with a member of the osu! team (myself, currently) to see the day-to-day affairs of running the team kept in order, and also to tackle any issues that may arise.
QAT leader: Good
Letting BN vote in this: Bad.
The QAT leadership should be decided only within the QAT itself. There are like.. 5 times so many BNs as QATs so this could end very fast in a popularity contest. The one who is most popular gets leader. But overall i'm all in for this. I'm all in for someone to poke me all two days with a stick i shall do something here and there. Having a leader who organize stuff properly will be cool

Oh and to the QAT rewards, i guess no one of us has something against it, correct me if i'm wrong xP

Overall green light for most of the changes
posted

Monstrata wrote:

Also, I'd rather have a QAT in charge that is popular and can get along with the BN ecosystem than a QAT who might be "better" (very subjective too) at their job, but has very little support from the people they want to lead. You only fear the QAT leadership will become dysfunctional because the unpopular QAT's (You, Cryptic, Doyak etc...) won't have a chance compared to pishifat/oko/maybe kwan if shes staying. But do you really think they will create a dysfunctional leadership? What criteria do you think determines a good QAT leader? And why do you fear that other QAT members might not meet that criteria?
Exactly, I don't want to have a leader who never communicate with us.

Also I feels that saying the BNs shouldn't vote isn't any different to a communist country selecting who are the only allowed to vote :p, anyways I always disliked to have a Leader who we didn't choicer and also that never try to communicate.


Ephemeral wrote:

  1. Current BN tiering system is dissolved and replaced with a 1-2 month probationary system with provisions for promotion/demotion based on conduct
    thanks, BN tiers was big mistake
  2. BN members receive increased acknowledgement via a forum title and some sort of visual identification (currently a purple name a la MAT). This particular point is temporary and will not carry over into the 'moddingv2' version of the Beatmap Nominators.
    Why temporary? tbh I never understand why you guys never notice that BNs are the ones who keep the game running, make this permanent

  3. The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.
    I really don't like to have ranking system, it's better to have rewards tbh
  4. Divisions will receive more attention and reworking by members of the QAT to better reflect active participation in them by those who are interested.
    I'm happy to work with a team, but being honest my experience with division is bad, for example in the last month I made 23 icons vs 13 from the other 5 members, I think a rework is needed, maybe an activity balance? I really don't like using discord and I'd prefer if we keep using the forum instead of an external app (but that's just me, maybe?)


posted
i agree with most of the proposal except for the bn rewards. i think the current bn scoring system should go through more discussion since activity is not really the best way to measure how well a bn is doing in my opinion.
activity is certainly a point to take into account though it might be problematic if the score is solely based on activity, people could end up rushing maps through the ranking process because there's currently no penalty for doing it wrong. that being said i'd like to suggest some points that i consider a proficient bn should be doing and could be taken into consideration for an eventual bn score.

  1. Knowledge of the ranking criteria and modding in general: it's pretty obvious that bn's should be proficient in modding though as the tests are now gone, there will be no way to know who is the most proficient when it comes to these points. i'd suggest to bring the tests back, and take the test score as a percentage for the final score. QATs could track who needs assistance and help them to improve. (this would also encourage you to improve your modding skills)
  2. Activity: this is kind of a delicate thing to talk about, it's true that bns should be active, though, people with a lot of connections might be benefited from this more than others. let's put it this way: if you're friend with a lot of proficient mappers, you could tell them to exclusively ask you for icons so it may end up not working as intended
  3. Helping new mappers: this was supposedly already a thing on the old system so there's nothing much to add. bns should be helping new mappers to get their map ranked (accordingly, it should be added into the score )
  4. Behavior: this would be sort of a base score, and it would be discounted depending on your faults as a bn (things like violating the code of conduct, or simply breaking the bn rules)
  5. Teamwork: this is related to divisions, i think the current system leaves you alone to work with your teammates, there isn't really an objective to work for, i think divisions could be separated into different tasks, for instance, a division task would be to check maps from new mappers,check qualified maps, help new modders to get into the bng etc, i think it would also bring variety to the bng, as you could join a division depending on what you like to do the most


i think these (and maybe other) ideas should balance the bn score. the bng is a diverse group, there might be people that don't like to work as a team so they could go all in with activity, in the other hand there are people who enjoys helping new mappers (we all know this is a very time-consuming work) so maybe they can't be as active as they want when it comes to nominate maps etc

tl:dr:
i'm in support for the changes as long as the scoring is not solely based on activity
posted
Yeah, well

Current BN tiering system is dissolved and replaced with a 1-2 month probationary system with provisions for promotion/demotion based on conduct
My only concern with the tiering system was the lack of clear indicator which shows who belongs where. But actually, I'm fine with this proposal at the moment.

BN members receive increased acknowledgment via a forum title and some sort of visual identification (currently a purple name a la MAT). This particular point is temporary and will not carry over into the 'moddingv2' version of the Beatmap Nominators.
As I was a part of the newBAT and I was there when the red color disappeared and I was among the fighters who wanted some indicator what shows that he/she does something useful for the community and helps the mappers finding someone who can move their maps forward. I still remember when Loctav said that color won't be a thing then when the badges appeared I remember we requested to make it seeable everywhere on the forum, this never happened as well. Ever since I became a QAT we brought up this topic several times but nothing happened because of reasons, now you come with the same, one hundred times spoken idea saying it could be a thing. I'm not against this just feels weird because BNs are waiting for something like this for 3 (or more) years already.

Long, consistently serving BN will receive a special title which they may choose to wear upon their retirement from the team. This will apply retroactively to all qualifying, currently-retired BN.
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The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.
I totally support this.

Divisions will receive more attention and reworking by members of the QAT to better reflect active participation in them by those who are interested.
"those who are interested"? It shouldn't be optional in my opinion. Better to help out the new recruits in a smaller team than leaving them on their own. The division system is good just needs more attention than they got in the past.

QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.
We were never discouraged to not check them and we were never limited to administrative work but you must keep in mind that a few of us has a little to no time to actually participate into the ranking so that might be the reason it felt like we are not allowed to do so. Anyway, I really like the idea of the reporting system although the thread already served that purpose.

QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering Ranked
The current criteria can't be considered as strict, there is no limit for alternate mapping styles. It mostly blocks the game breakers and the useless stuff. The revision is on-going anyway so this feels useless.

The de-facto leadership of the QAT will be determined by applicants expressing their interest, and placing themselves before a combined vote of the BN and QAT. The top two applicants will be considered as the QAT leadership, and will work closely with a member of the osu! team (myself, currently) to see the day-to-day affairs of running the team kept in order, and also to tackle any issues that may arise.
Having a leader is good but actually, I do not know why should the BNs be allowed to vote. I mean, they will get little to no benefit from doing so. The QAT is basically the leader of the BNs anyway. I do not have time to be a leader and I rather go back to modding anyway so I do not really mind but it feels weird.

Anyway, I'm fine with this.
posted
Just so people know - this won't stall like the Loved discussion. The QAT have 2 weeks since the date this thread was posted to determine for themselves whether they wish to go ahead with the proposal or not. I'm pushing them to get their thoughts out sooner (as you might've noticed in the thread) so we can get the ball rolling on all this.

Regardless of how it goes (even though it looks fairly heavily leaning towards 'yes, we're going ahead with this' at the moment), something will happen on the 18th of September, no questions asked. Be it the proposal going ahead, or the QAT publicly declaring that they are choosing not to go ahead with it. Hopefully, it'll happen a lot sooner.
posted
Hope this goes through. Some transparency is helpful. The tier system is really a roadblock to us commoner mappers. BNs and QATs deserve some recognition and rewards as it is already considered as contributing to the game. The rest are more internal so I'll not go into that much.
posted

Ephemeral wrote:

Current BN tiering system is dissolved and replaced with a 1-2 month probationary system with provisions for promotion/demotion based on conduct
I have no opinion on the tiering system as it didn't affect the gamemode I am part of. I'm okay with the probationary period.

Ephemeral wrote:

  1. BN members receive increased acknowledgement via a forum title and some sort of visual identification (currently a purple name a la MAT). This particular point is temporary and will not carry over into the 'moddingv2' version of the Beatmap Nominators.
  2. Long, consistently serving BN will receive a special title which they may choose to wear upon their retirement from the team. This will apply retroactively to all qualifying, currently-retired BN.
  3. The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.
I've read from you and other members of the staff that the BNs are extremely important to the game. This seems to conflict with how little recognition and reward BNs currently receive. While the stuff mentioned above is an attempt, it's still inadequate. The color name is completely pointless if it's temporary, especially with moddingv2 coming supposedly soon. I'm not really keen on the idea of having a competition - because, whatever thing you want to factor in in the formula, it's still a competition - to give some sort of mid-term reward. As other have mentioned, a monthly osu!supporter tag could be well received, as it's something far more concrete. This, along with the title thing - which I'm okay with - levels the rewards for the BNG with the current situation for the QATs (which is, according to the proposal, getting a buff, too).

Ephemeral wrote:

Divisions will receive more attention and reworking by members of the QAT to better reflect active participation in them by those who are interested.
This is way too abstract and not concrete, so I'm not commenting on this. I just wanted to say that I thought since day one that the subdivisions, at least for catch, were not going to work and I'm glad we've been merged again.

Ephemeral wrote:

QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.
The reporting system sounds cool. As other have mentioned, it must include something to state the reasons for the report (I don't know how "mods" post qualification are going to be handled in moddingv2).

Ephemeral wrote:

QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering Ranked
QATs can, like any other member of the community, already propose additions, removals of modifications to the RC, that go through the respective UBKRC group. Also, I don't think the RC is that strict, at least in catch, to roadblock alternative mapping styles, so there's another reason to consider this unnecessary on my side.

Ephemeral wrote:

The de-facto leadership of the QAT will be determined by applicants expressing their interest, and placing themselves before a combined vote of the BN and QAT. The top two applicants will be considered as the QAT leadership, and will work closely with a member of the osu! team (myself, currently) to see the day-to-day affairs of running the team kept in order, and also to tackle any issues that may arise.[/list]
As QATs directly influence the BNG, I personally think the BNG should be able to vote. Obviously, BN votes shouldn't be weighted the same as QAT votes due to the large difference in the amount of members in both groups.
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