chano & 40mP - Natsukoi Hanabi

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igorsprite
Essa discussão foi tão desnecessária quanto o mod do Monstrata :/
Topic Starter
Net0

Monstrata wrote:

You're welcome to disagree. Maps that try to push the boundaries / go against the norms of the meta typically take a lot more effort to rank, but you're well aware of that.Yeah, even tho I don’t think there’s anything THAT spectacular NEW with any diff, sure I can’t rank this to celebrate anyones birthday.

My issue with many difficulties in this mapset is that you've executed these gimmicky and "creative" elements with no relation to anything standard or "normal" so there is no juxtaposition that allows these creative elements to shine. Because you’re going for a specific definition of “normal” mapping. You see, if I compare in a DJPop maps parts that are supposed to shine and parts that are not supposed do shine, I need to evaluate it differently if I were to mod one of your regular maps beucase the core used to structure the map is entirely different. Let me show you;
If a map is made on grid snap 1, fully DSed. The analisys of a part that is supposed to shine and parts that are not can’t be done with spacing concept. If visuals are also an element that’s null because of slider design limitation, the evaluation there should be on flow element, and that’s pretty straight forward if you compare how both of this plays;
https://puu.sh/y29Gk.jpg / https://puu.sh/y29Ia.jpg is pretty obvious on what is being more emphasized compared to the other one.
And that applies to any map that has an intensity component added to its composition;
In your maps for example, you have the same visual/flow in the entire map, so the only element that can be took into analysis as for the shine/non-shine thing is spacing;
Non-kiai
http://puu.sh/y29N7.jpg /
Kiai
https://puu.sh/y29RT.jpg
And that can be took into account in any map of any level of difficulty. HOWEVER you’re generically pointing that the diffs don’t have that contrast but you never mentioned that IN THE MOD itself.


On their own, the patterns could be pretty cool, but there is no substance to them currently. It's unfortunately, because many of the mappers in this set seem to know their way around the editor. But you guys are using too many different concepts and not tying them in. There are a lot of "oh this is cool" moments that turn into "wait why is it like this now?" two seconds after because you shift to a different pattern, or a different approach. This set to me, showcases mappers with good potential who are biting off more than they can chew by trying to introduce and set up too many creative components. This entire paragraph is just rethoric argumentation. “On their own, the patterns could be pretty cool, but there is no substance to them currently.” Saying there’s no substance means nothing. It’s just personal criticism, it’s just like a line a movie critic would say about a specific acting of a person in a movie for example.
“But you guys are using too many different concepts and not tying them in.” really? So you think that Mirash map suddenly becomes another map midway? If that was the case would be really simple to point that out; “Yo Mirash your map up until the second verse is one thing, when you start mapping the bridge of the song and chorus you’re totally using different stuff” Another element is that EACH diff is different. So each diff has its own concepts to be “tying them in.. Shizuku- with the reading/stack aspect, Mirash diff with flow, Bariton diff with its overlap visual, etc. And AGAIN, you didn’t mentioned in the mod where it was off, when any of the diffs just didn’t implement something accordingly.


If you want to improve your map, ask yourself why you've deviated from the "expected/standard" way of mapping for a particular element or pattern. If your answer is something along the lines of "i want to make it different" then reconsider your reasoning. If your answer is "I want to highlight X" (X being a particular instrument, the pitch, the rhythm, the emphasis, etc...) then keep. You’re assuming now that we don’t know what we’re doing because you QUICKLLY checked the diffs and couldn’t grasp it, so now it’s our fault? Even tho we did mapped accordingly to what you’re saying? Quick example
Mirash diff; 00:20:854 (3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6) – why would you map this with straight lines and on the next section 00:23:322 (1,2,3,4,5) – make a square?! Oh that’s because the map uses a straight visual, and to make distinction of the two different measures 00:21:993 - ~ 00:22:942 - / 00:23:322 - ~ 00:24:272 -. Spacing and flow changed accordingly, also avoid the linear repetition with the song change, there’s a symmetrical patterning build here 00:24:272 (1,2,3,4,5,1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1) – instead of the previous free-hand design, etc, etc.
If a modder doesn’t understand a certain idea in the map, he should ASK about it. Not assume the mapper doesn’t know what he’s doing.

But then ask yourself "If i want to highlight X using method Y, do I really need to highlight X using method Z, A, B, C, D, E, F as well?" (Methods being "flow break, spacing changes, linear flow, overlaps, stacks etc....)" And hopefully your answer will be "No", or in rare cases"Yes, but only because method Y and Z relate very well to each other."
Again you didn’t ask yourself that when you modded my diff for example; you modded this section 00:18:575 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1) – and all you could see was the visual element of it to justify its existence, but failed to notice the fact that every single object 00:18:575 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) – is upwards compared to 00:18:765 (2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2) – and also failed to question yourself WHY only 00:21:044 (2) – and 00:22:942 (1) – are the exception of that rule. That also applies to other concepts such as spacing, why is this group 00:18:575 (1,2,1,2) – contrast between spacing on 1-2 vs 2-1 difference bigger compared to 00:19:335 (1,2,1,2) - , or flow , why does this part flows linear 00:21:613 (1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1) – instead of angular like the previous 1-2. So yeah, I map using everything you’re saying.
Hope you understand my position better now. I watched the vod of you modding this map, I heard “Please don’t tell me this is bubbled”, I can already understand your position pretty clearly. But what I really think that comes up with all of this is how unwilling you were to mod the map in the first place. If you really didn’t want to mod this I gave you other options, also, you could just say “Hey I don’t like any of the songs you have currently, do you mind if I own you a mod on something else in the future?” . Because honestly, anything is better compared to a mod made with bad faith.
I've come to understand your perspective better, so I'm not as afraid to put a veto. But I probably won't unless you find some random BN to yolo bubble this. “Random BN”so you find the memes towards you offensive, but saying that there are BNs who are random and BNs who are not random is not offensive when EVERY single BN is an important part of the BNG is not offensive…
Monstrata
Best of luck ranking this map ^^.
Mun

Monstrata wrote:

Mun's Expert

00:06:992 (1,2,3) - Why the sudden change in structure here? I don't see much of a change in structure here at all, aside from that which the music merits as it transitions into the next section.
00:11:360 (3,4) - Why stack? :S that would be because i am bad
00:21:044 (5,6) - Why the huge 1/4 jump here xp see above
00:25:980 (1,4) - Can you not overlap? lmao u got it
00:35:854 (3,4,5) - This just looks bad cuz its a different visual structure compared to just an object before. Two competing grid structures end up causing structural inconsistenties Thanks for the input! I'd like more feedback on whether the change is acceptable if possible, though
00:47:626 (2,3,4) - Why are they so close together they touch like that xd. your cs is high enough xd unclosened
00:49:525 (3,1) - Looks off visually xP make more symmetrical or something. symmetricized

lol xd lol

You guys are trying too hard to be creative, but there is no baseline "standard mapping" to deviate from though. The issue with making everything creative is, if there is nothing to deviate from, it doesn't come across as unique or special, just different. Look at Shizuku's approach if you want a good idea of how to properly implement creative elements.
This was the most helpful mod that this mapset has received to date. Thank you!

osu file format v14

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Title:Natsukoi Hanabi
TitleUnicode:夏恋花火
Artist:chano & 40mP
ArtistUnicode:シャノ & 40mP
Creator:Net0
Version:Mun's Expert
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Tags:sugar panoram a note summer festival fireworks chano Trynna Mun Bariton MkGuh Shizuku- Mirash Delis Ataraxia
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VINXIS
meh monstrata isnt wrong in the mod

i think most of the mappers' efforts in this set r trying to be 2 creative which led them to obscure the image of their own map
Hobbes2
@mun

small point but have you considered moving all of 00:25:980 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - to the right a bit, lets you space out 00:27:120 (5) - which would help make it look not so different from the other 1/4 gaps (something like https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9352907)

01:01:107 (1,2,3) - I also think this is a bit overspaced in context with the rest of the map, its part of the transition so i dont think it needs this big emphasis

@mirash

00:21:423 (1,2,3,4) - these doubles make no sense to me at all, i cant hear what they're supposed be following. if its an overmap...im not really understanding that either
Xexxar
top diff:

00:25:411 - ... why did you ignore this beat? i cannot fathom a reason for why this is ignored. Can you explain this?

(also overall agree with monstrata this map isnt really fit for rank as is)
chainpullz
I too was there for Monstrata's stream and while he may not have gone start to finish on every diff, there are like a dozens diffs on this set so it still ended up costing an hour of his time to go over what he did.

I'm usually a fan of edgy mapping (hanzer x irre eastbound & down is one of my favorites) but when the tone of the song itself is the exact opposite of edgy it has the same cringe feeling as a bunch of middle schoolers trying to be edgy for the sake of being edgy.

This is just a first impression (opinion) from seeing the maps on his stream so take it as you will (though I do hope you at least take a moment to ask yourself why it had to be this song that you mapped like this).
_handholding
Imho I see you as quite an inexperienced mapper (dw I suck too) and whenever someone critisizes one of your maps, or just don't agree with certain aspects, you get really defensive and start bringing up loads of other maps in retaliation, and that doesn't really help much. I think if you were to truly take a step back with some humility, try out a few things other modders have brought up, you'd go a long way, not just improving your individual maps but also improving as a mapper as well
SnowNiNo_
why do ppl try to map gimmicks
when the song isnt gimmicky at all
:thinking:
juankristal
do i really have to read all of this stuff... :(

EDIT: Alright so, cleaned the thread a bit. Please no more memes here.

Don't make a drama out of something that didn't really look like it in the first place really. People can make arguments but at the end they are helping improving maps by modding. Both sides should just be more clear with their suggestions and answers alongisde memeing a lot less.
Joe Castle
its sad that half of you guys cant stand a meme about monstrata´s mod...

but at the same time the other half cant stand a silly opinion about how the map starts

/4D_chess_starts
0034192
lmao what the fuck is going on here
Natteke desu

SnowNiNo_ wrote:

why do ppl try to map gimmicks
when the song isnt gimmicky at all
:thinking:
Because mapping basic stuff is boring and not original
Shizuku-

Monstrata wrote:

Shizuku's Extra

00:10:791 (1,1) - Stacks Whoops, no one saw that one
00:25:411 - Don't understand why you dont map this. But i can understand every other part. it's just here theres also the insturment didn't feel the need to add a note since I mostly follow the percussion instruments

This is great. This is how you should map a gimmick honestly. There are overlapping/stacking/hard to read patterns but they are really well integrated. you have a baseline that is "normal" mapping so when you switch to sections that are different, they feel unique and special. Good job! Coming from you, it's a really nice thing to say. Considering for the past 2 years, you hated my mapping style since it didn't make sense at all. It's good to see that comment from you because that's when I know that I improved on mapping, even though it took so long to do so.
osu file format v14

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179,66,80664,6,0,B|155:51|155:51|162:130,1,107.999996704102,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
394,132,81044,2,0,B|418:118|418:118|346:85,1,107.999996704102,2|8,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
229,285,81423,2,0,B|228:313|228:313|292:267,1,107.999996704102,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
394,132,81803,5,2,0:0:0:0:
179,66,81993,2,0,L|189:185,1,107.999996704102,8|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
394,132,82373,2,0,P|327:117|371:181,1,161.999995056153,6|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
471,105,82753,5,8,0:0:0:0:
286,56,82942,2,0,L|174:65,1,107.999996704102,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
80,182,83322,5,2,0:0:0:0:
229,285,83512,1,8,0:0:0:0:
178,65,83702,6,0,B|138:49|98:65|98:65|118:49,1,107.999996704102,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
343,181,84082,2,0,B|376:154|383:111|383:111|386:137,1,107.999996704102,2|8,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
160,265,84461,1,2,0:0:0:0:
160,265,84556,1,8,0:0:0:0:
160,265,84651,6,0,B|166:307|200:334|200:334|176:324,1,107.999996704102,8|8,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
178,65,85031,5,8,0:3:0:0:
178,65,85411,6,0,B|240:32|304:64|304:64|280:93,1,161.999995056153,12|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
185,168,85791,2,0,P|170:117|178:64,1,107.999996704102,8|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
385,136,86170,5,8,0:0:0:0:
185,168,86360,1,2,0:0:0:0:
372,261,86550,1,8,0:0:0:0:
175,323,86740,6,0,B|151:338|151:338|158:259,1,107.999996704102,2|8,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
372,261,87120,2,0,B|396:276|396:276|389:197,1,107.999996704102,2|8,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
202,104,87499,2,0,B|178:89|178:89|185:168,1,107.999996704102,2|8,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
200,376,87879,5,2,0:0:0:0:
366,261,88069,1,8,0:0:0:0:
202,104,88259,1,2,0:0:0:0:
83,298,88449,5,8,0:0:0:0:
366,261,88639,1,2,0:0:0:0:
80,182,88829,5,8,0:0:0:0:
363,145,89018,1,2,0:0:0:0:
200,376,89208,5,8,0:0:0:0:
178,65,89398,1,2,0:0:0:0:
477,120,89588,5,8,0:0:0:0:
80,179,89778,6,0,B|126:202|173:188|173:188|141:198|125:232,1,161.999995056153,6|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
125,231,90158,5,2,0:0:0:0:
310,116,90348,2,0,L|198:106,1,107.999996704102,8|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
388,196,90727,5,8,0:0:0:0:
125,231,90917,1,2,0:0:0:0:
389,284,91107,1,8,0:0:0:0:
440,267,91202,1,8,0:0:0:0:
440,213,91297,1,8,0:0:0:0:
388,196,91392,1,8,0:0:0:0:
357,240,91487,5,4,1:0:0:0:
125,231,91866,5,8,0:0:0:0:
357,240,92056,1,0,0:0:0:0:
125,231,92436,5,0,0:0:0:0:
241,235,92626,1,8,0:0:0:0:
357,240,92816,1,4,0:0:0:0:
125,231,93196,5,8,0:0:0:0:
357,240,93385,1,8,0:0:0:0:
125,231,93575,5,0,0:0:0:0:
125,231,93955,5,8,0:0:0:0:
357,240,94145,1,0,0:0:0:0:
241,235,94335,1,8,0:0:0:0:
200,376,94525,5,4,0:0:0:0:
203,107,94904,5,8,0:0:0:0:
200,376,95094,1,0,0:0:0:0:
203,107,95474,5,8,0:0:0:0:
201,241,95664,1,8,0:0:0:0:
200,376,95854,5,0,0:0:0:0:
203,107,96234,1,0,0:0:0:0:
357,240,96423,1,8,0:0:0:0:
201,241,96613,1,0,0:0:0:0:
45,240,96993,5,8,0:0:0:0:
201,241,97183,1,0,0:0:0:0:
201,241,97373,1,0,0:0:0:0:
124,106,97563,1,0,0:0:0:0:
Mirash
@Hobbes2 if you listen closely, sounds in music start at 00:21:423 (1) - and end on 00:21:803 (4) - while it could be a stream because of strong tomb, i find the way doublets represent that sounds more appropriate here, if i'm not a total retard. i might change it though, if someone actually will convince me with something more than WHYWHYWHYitIsOvermap
also got very tilted because of discussions i've seen, thanks
Linada

Mirash wrote:

@Hobbes2 if you listen closely, sounds in music start at 00:21:423 (1) - and end on 00:21:803 (4) - while it could be a stream because of strong tomb, i find the way doublets represent that sounds more appropriate here, if i'm not a total retard. i might change it though, if someone actually will convince me with something more than WHYWHYWHYitIsOvermap
also got very tilted because of discussions i've seen, thanks
tbh i really can't understand doubles here too, even if i listen closely i don't get it. moving 3 at the white tick would make much more sense to me

also

01:16:297 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - i knew overmap with sliderend were allowed but this stream is completely out of place
01:24:461 (7,1) - also here ?? but you ignore the existing 1/4s to completely overmap inexisting sounds ?
01:25:411 (5) - nc pls

Net0 wrote:

while Mirash follows his own mapping based on overmapped rhythms
when did this become a thing ? thoses streams emphasize or express nothing in the song, i don't get it, why is this even a thing

also ppl here getting triggered easily, don't take this offensively, i'm out already do what you want


@Shizuku rly nice diff
ShirohaMyMommy
I've never been mapping just to make every circle sense btw maybe not a good thing to tell someone what to do by your words >u<

p.s. my post with the fixed .osu is deleted holy shit
Sotarks

Jounzan wrote:

SnowNiNo_ wrote:

why do ppl try to map gimmicks
when the song isnt gimmicky at all
:thinking:
Because mapping basic stuff is boring and not original
Agree with Nino here..
If you guys really want to be original just make original maps on original songs. But this is just my opinion tho.

I remember modded this and yeah shizuku reflected this song really well with his mapping. The rest is good but like trying too hard to be creative ends up random gimmicks and doesn't fit.

Anyway good luck with this
Akitoshi

Delis wrote:

>u<
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